With no data to back me up, I'd guess LoL has a bigger fanbase because it's far more accessible and free to play. SC2 is not casual friendly. At all. It's a complicated game, wtih an even more complicated metagame, and has an actual physical bar to entry (APM), where as LoL is click click click QWER.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
There're also 10x as many casual lol players
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
sc2 viewers are also spoiled by tournaments, imo
I'll watch first person streams to -learn and -support, but I don't really love watching them the way I love watching a casted game. and with the sheer number of casted high level games every day it seems silly to throw on a first person stream most of the time.
I have jinro on right now, muted, because I like Jinro and if I make him 2 cents and it costs me nothing that's awesome. also because he just did a nice rush vP.
Day9 pretty much makes his living on streaming right? A quick google turns results of him getting around 10k viewers per broadcast. I wonder if that would be a better approach for progamers who want people to turn into their stream, just play a couple of replays of good games and comment what they were thinking.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I have jinro on right now, muted, because I like Jinro and if I make him 2 cents and it costs me nothing that's awesome. also because he just did a nice rush vP.
this is the same reason I despise people who use adblock when watching streams.
it costs you nothing to watch a 30second ad. the only time streamers run ads is between games when there's nothing else to watch anyway. you really want to make sure you get to see them checking teamliquid between games? fuck off.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Day9 pretty much makes his living on streaming right? A quick google turns results of him getting around 10k viewers per broadcast. I wonder if that would be a better approach for progamers who want people to turn into their stream, just play a couple of replays of good games and comment what they were thinking.
i want to say that day9 doesn't run ads on his live broadcasts, but I might be wrong there.
Dhalphir on
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I'm willing to bet Day9 gets paid quite a bit by Blizzard and MLG when he's casting and I know he's got a huge number of subscribers
Oh my god, Hero just trolled Polt like a mofo on his stream. Polt went early mass marines, goy picked apart by stalkers and sentries, and then just got crushed by an upgraded bio army. Hero must have used the /dance command like 10 times at the end.
I may be biased because it literally just happened, but it was one of the most satisfying SC2 games I've seen.
If you check some of his links, you'll find a website that lets you upload your replays in a SC2gears like fashion and it spits out your win/loss %, your workers per minute (wpm) and your unfiltered APM
the real gem is the workers per minute statistic. According to this guys stats, the average Grandmaster player is making about 3.4 workers a minute. The average bronzie? 1.5
Personally, I clocked in with 1.7 workers a minute. I do have a tendency to all in and cut drones, but wow. I didn't think I was THAT bad and that close to bronze level in these terms.
Very cool stuff, imo. I guess when I play macro games now, I will have to work on my worker production, hue
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
does it consider games where you stop making workers because of length?
I hit that point a lot and it feels like it would ruin the entire purpose
edit - he probably addresses this, apologies for my laziness
Oh my god, Hero just trolled Polt like a mofo on his stream. Polt went early mass marines, goy picked apart by stalkers and sentries, and then just got crushed by an upgraded bio army. Hero must have used the /dance command like 10 times at the end.
I may be biased because it literally just happened, but it was one of the most satisfying SC2 games I've seen.
I just saw that too it was a pretty good game but Hero plays some awful music on his stream.
Edit: Ok the current song is better so maybe I just caught him at a bad time.
Neaden on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Definitely is a useful statistic. I put in a bunch of my own replays, but did it in a different way. I separated my games into games that are less than 10 minutes, games 10min-20min, and games more than 20 mins.
The results were pretty much as expected - in the games shorter than 10 mins, my workers per minute was mostly 3.4, sometimes 3.3 or 3.5. In games shorter than 20 minutes but longer than 10 mins, it was a bit lower, accounting for the games where I either was able to max out on workers by 12-13 mins, or games where I cut worker production for an attack. Hovered around 2.9-3.0
Without fail, in all of the games over 20 mins, my workers per minute was below 2 because it drags down the average once you stop maknig workers in that lategame scenario.
does it consider games where you stop making workers because of length?
I hit that point a lot and it feels like it would ruin the entire purpose
edit - he probably addresses this, apologies for my laziness
he has a seperate graph that shows your worker production as the game goes on
It is a general sloping downwards as players will be making less workers as each game minute passes
it's cool because it will compare your trends to that of bronze-diamond players and those of masters and above
for example, I have a sharp decline in worker production around minute 3 for some reason, moreso than even the bronze-diamond players, but it spikes and sorta evens out near minute 5, then it slopes downward with the rest of the trends.
Masters players also have a dip around minute 3, but not as much as other players and certainly not as much as me. THey have the subsequent spike in worker production after, as well
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
the more I think about it, the more I think that is very very helpful for those new to the game, especially Protoss and Terran newbies. If you take any given 10 minute game, given perfect worker production you should be at 3.5 workers per minute (excepting Zerg)
My standard advice to a lot of newbies looking to improve is - go and watch your replay, and note down times when your nexus is idle, and for how long. and fix those times for the next game.
This tool makes that unnecessary - you can simply plug into the tool and see "oh look, my workers per minute is only 2.3, I must have had an idle nexus for long periods of time"
Watching the replay will still be useful for figuring out when you are most likely to forget to make workers, but the tool is useful for measuring improvement. If you can look at a batch of replays and see that although you are still in (for example) silver, your workers per minute has increased on average from 1.3 to 2.8, you can feel good about that and that helps keep you motivated to keep learning.
metrics for improvement are few and far between in this game, and since the ladder system is designed to keep you winning more or less only half of your games, that means that it can feel sometimes like you aren't making progress.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
does it consider games where you stop making workers because of length?
I hit that point a lot and it feels like it would ruin the entire purpose
edit - he probably addresses this, apologies for my laziness
he has a seperate graph that shows your worker production as the game goes on
It is a general sloping downwards as players will be making less workers as each game minute passes
it's cool because it will compare your trends to that of bronze-diamond players and those of masters and above
for example, I have a sharp decline in worker production around minute 3 for some reason, moreso than even the bronze-diamond players, but it spikes and sorta evens out near minute 5, then it slopes downward with the rest of the trends.
Masters players also have a dip around minute 3, but not as much as other players and certainly not as much as me. THey have the subsequent spike in worker production after, as well
Probably not very useful for Zerg. You'll spike at different times depending on whats happening in the game.
The dip in worker production at 3 mins is likely due to Terran replays. You have to stop making workers when you make your orbital command and that happens around 3mins.
Also potentially due to Zerg replays where you cut workers to make your hatchery or in Protoss fast expand scenarios.
metrics for improvement are few and far between in this game, and since the ladder system is designed to keep you winning more or less only half of your games, that means that it can feel sometimes like you aren't making progress.
I don't really like the whole league system because of this, since your MMR is what they really use I wish they would just show it instead.
the more I think about it, the more I think that is very very helpful for those new to the game, especially Protoss and Terran newbies. If you take any given 10 minute game, given perfect worker production you should be at 3.5 workers per minute (excepting Zerg)
My standard advice to a lot of newbies looking to improve is - go and watch your replay, and note down times when your nexus is idle, and for how long. and fix those times for the next game.
This tool makes that unnecessary - you can simply plug into the tool and see "oh look, my workers per minute is only 2.3, I must have had an idle nexus for long periods of time"
Watching the replay will still be useful for figuring out when you are most likely to forget to make workers, but the tool is useful for measuring improvement. If you can look at a batch of replays and see that although you are still in (for example) silver, your workers per minute has increased on average from 1.3 to 2.8, you can feel good about that and that helps keep you motivated to keep learning.
metrics for improvement are few and far between in this game, and since the ladder system is designed to keep you winning more or less only half of your games, that means that it can feel sometimes like you aren't making progress.
Yes, I think it is a great tool as well and it certainly is an eye opener for just how bad I am at this game. 1.7 workers a minute is almost bronze-scrub tier.
It really gives me an idea of something that I need to work on for the future and that is the most basic macro thing of all: making drones
also, I think because it is workers per minute, it should account properly for the weird drone growth that zerg has. If we make 12 drones and once, then nothing for a few minutes, it should all even out, right? I am not a statistician
I'd love trunker's input on this tool as well, seeing as he seems to have a handle on this sort of thing.
metrics for improvement are few and far between in this game, and since the ladder system is designed to keep you winning more or less only half of your games, that means that it can feel sometimes like you aren't making progress.
I don't really like the whole league system because of this, since your MMR is what they really use I wish they would just show it instead.
I very much wish I could see my MMR. I am very much driven by some measurable means of seeing improvement
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
There is a disclaimer on the OP that mentions something about only being able to count attempts to produce a worker rather than actual worker creation, and to avoid problems due to spam, there is a 3second rule, so if you hold down your button i think it only counts as one.
There is a disclaimer on the OP that mentions something about only being able to count attempts to produce a worker rather than actual worker creation, and to avoid problems due to spam, there is a 3second rule, so if you hold down your button i think it only counts as one.
oh, interesting
i make all my drones by just highlighting all hatcheries, pressing S, then holding D until I have so many as I need. Maybe pressing D a few more times to make a couple more to get a nice round number or something
I watch Rainbow and KawaiiRice whenever they're streaming because I'm a big fan of both, but neither of them ever gets much over 300 viewers.
Why would they have large numbers for their streams? We'll put aside that 300 viewers is still a large number and just say when compared to other streamers the numbers are low. So? Neither are relevant in tournaments and neither have a personality that makes them unique.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I have no idea. The last I heard (and Meeks and Vari seem to also have this information), our team was down 4-3 with Joe K (meeks) and 38th (Vari) still to play. It was possible if 38th won that we would then take it to an ace match.
The other day Kedinik made a post saying that Just Cheese League was facing them in the playoff finals, but that was the first anyone knew of it.
The MVP stream isn't nearly as organised or well set-up as the IM one, though.
I was wrong, it's MVPMonster.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Right now is a good sample time of when a large number of good players are streaming.
Destiny leads the pack at 4.2k viewers
followed by
HerO - 3.5k
Catz - 1.9k
then Jinro, Haypro, Incredible Miracle, and KawaiiRice following at around 250-350 each.
I have no idea. The last I heard (and Meeks and Vari seem to also have this information), our team was down 4-3 with Joe K (meeks) and 38th (Vari) still to play. It was possible if 38th won that we would then take it to an ace match.
The other day Kedinik made a post saying that Just Cheese League was facing them in the playoff finals, but that was the first anyone knew of it.
redraptor informed me that JCL defeated Vari's Varis with Joe K and that we will play them in the finals.
I guess Invictus still has not received all the replays he needs.
Speaking of which, have the proxy tossgirls picked a champion yet for the ace match?
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
ked that's not true according to meeks and joe k within the last 24 hours
marty_0001I am a fileand you put documents in meRegistered Userregular
Fuck me dead
I keep assuming I'm ahead and walking my mid-game army around, testing the opponent, when actually he has a tonne of shit and suddenly my army gets shredded.
I really need to crank that paranoia dial back up, like I used to, and never ever assume I am ahead.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Yeah I don't think there's a lot to be gained by comparing workers-per-minute rates between races.
Zerg can make workers in huge spurts and is totally dependent upon the flow of the game. Protoss can vary hugely depending on if they are chronoboosting probes or not, though not as much as Zerg. Terran is probably the closest you can come to "pretty much constant worker production always" but even then, they spend long periods of time at non-peak SCV construction because of orbital transform time.
I keep assuming I'm ahead and walking my mid-game army around, testing the opponent, when actually he has a tonne of shit and suddenly my army gets shredded.
I really need to crank that paranoia dial back up, like I used to, and never ever assume I am ahead.
Scouting!
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Posts
I'll watch first person streams to -learn and -support, but I don't really love watching them the way I love watching a casted game. and with the sheer number of casted high level games every day it seems silly to throw on a first person stream most of the time.
I have jinro on right now, muted, because I like Jinro and if I make him 2 cents and it costs me nothing that's awesome. also because he just did a nice rush vP.
I lost my train of thought
this is the same reason I despise people who use adblock when watching streams.
it costs you nothing to watch a 30second ad. the only time streamers run ads is between games when there's nothing else to watch anyway. you really want to make sure you get to see them checking teamliquid between games? fuck off.
i want to say that day9 doesn't run ads on his live broadcasts, but I might be wrong there.
I may be biased because it literally just happened, but it was one of the most satisfying SC2 games I've seen.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319464
If you check some of his links, you'll find a website that lets you upload your replays in a SC2gears like fashion and it spits out your win/loss %, your workers per minute (wpm) and your unfiltered APM
the real gem is the workers per minute statistic. According to this guys stats, the average Grandmaster player is making about 3.4 workers a minute. The average bronzie? 1.5
Personally, I clocked in with 1.7 workers a minute. I do have a tendency to all in and cut drones, but wow. I didn't think I was THAT bad and that close to bronze level in these terms.
Very cool stuff, imo. I guess when I play macro games now, I will have to work on my worker production, hue
I hit that point a lot and it feels like it would ruin the entire purpose
edit - he probably addresses this, apologies for my laziness
Edit: Ok the current song is better so maybe I just caught him at a bad time.
The results were pretty much as expected - in the games shorter than 10 mins, my workers per minute was mostly 3.4, sometimes 3.3 or 3.5. In games shorter than 20 minutes but longer than 10 mins, it was a bit lower, accounting for the games where I either was able to max out on workers by 12-13 mins, or games where I cut worker production for an attack. Hovered around 2.9-3.0
Without fail, in all of the games over 20 mins, my workers per minute was below 2 because it drags down the average once you stop maknig workers in that lategame scenario.
he has a seperate graph that shows your worker production as the game goes on
It is a general sloping downwards as players will be making less workers as each game minute passes
it's cool because it will compare your trends to that of bronze-diamond players and those of masters and above
for example, I have a sharp decline in worker production around minute 3 for some reason, moreso than even the bronze-diamond players, but it spikes and sorta evens out near minute 5, then it slopes downward with the rest of the trends.
Masters players also have a dip around minute 3, but not as much as other players and certainly not as much as me. THey have the subsequent spike in worker production after, as well
My standard advice to a lot of newbies looking to improve is - go and watch your replay, and note down times when your nexus is idle, and for how long. and fix those times for the next game.
This tool makes that unnecessary - you can simply plug into the tool and see "oh look, my workers per minute is only 2.3, I must have had an idle nexus for long periods of time"
Watching the replay will still be useful for figuring out when you are most likely to forget to make workers, but the tool is useful for measuring improvement. If you can look at a batch of replays and see that although you are still in (for example) silver, your workers per minute has increased on average from 1.3 to 2.8, you can feel good about that and that helps keep you motivated to keep learning.
metrics for improvement are few and far between in this game, and since the ladder system is designed to keep you winning more or less only half of your games, that means that it can feel sometimes like you aren't making progress.
Probably not very useful for Zerg. You'll spike at different times depending on whats happening in the game.
The dip in worker production at 3 mins is likely due to Terran replays. You have to stop making workers when you make your orbital command and that happens around 3mins.
Also potentially due to Zerg replays where you cut workers to make your hatchery or in Protoss fast expand scenarios.
Yes, I think it is a great tool as well and it certainly is an eye opener for just how bad I am at this game. 1.7 workers a minute is almost bronze-scrub tier.
It really gives me an idea of something that I need to work on for the future and that is the most basic macro thing of all: making drones
also, I think because it is workers per minute, it should account properly for the weird drone growth that zerg has. If we make 12 drones and once, then nothing for a few minutes, it should all even out, right? I am not a statistician
I'd love trunker's input on this tool as well, seeing as he seems to have a handle on this sort of thing.
I very much wish I could see my MMR. I am very much driven by some measurable means of seeing improvement
oh, interesting
i make all my drones by just highlighting all hatcheries, pressing S, then holding D until I have so many as I need. Maybe pressing D a few more times to make a couple more to get a nice round number or something
The MVP stream isn't nearly as organised or well set-up as the IM one, though.
Why would they have large numbers for their streams? We'll put aside that 300 viewers is still a large number and just say when compared to other streamers the numbers are low. So? Neither are relevant in tournaments and neither have a personality that makes them unique.
I have no idea. The last I heard (and Meeks and Vari seem to also have this information), our team was down 4-3 with Joe K (meeks) and 38th (Vari) still to play. It was possible if 38th won that we would then take it to an ace match.
The other day Kedinik made a post saying that Just Cheese League was facing them in the playoff finals, but that was the first anyone knew of it.
Destiny leads the pack at 4.2k viewers
followed by
HerO - 3.5k
Catz - 1.9k
then Jinro, Haypro, Incredible Miracle, and KawaiiRice following at around 250-350 each.
Steam ID
Game 1:
Game 2:
Game 3:
Results:
redraptor informed me that JCL defeated Vari's Varis with Joe K and that we will play them in the finals.
I guess Invictus still has not received all the replays he needs.
Speaking of which, have the proxy tossgirls picked a champion yet for the ace match?
I keep assuming I'm ahead and walking my mid-game army around, testing the opponent, when actually he has a tonne of shit and suddenly my army gets shredded.
I really need to crank that paranoia dial back up, like I used to, and never ever assume I am ahead.
due to that and chrono it's gotta be easier for a protoss to hit a higher number, especially in shorter games
Zerg can make workers in huge spurts and is totally dependent upon the flow of the game. Protoss can vary hugely depending on if they are chronoboosting probes or not, though not as much as Zerg. Terran is probably the closest you can come to "pretty much constant worker production always" but even then, they spend long periods of time at non-peak SCV construction because of orbital transform time.
Scouting!
you shouldn't feel bad. I certainly didn't think we all had to be on guard about being straight up lied to about the outcomes of these matches.
what a dick move.
trolling is, at least on some level, usually a bit amusing.
there's not really much amusing about saying "oh yeah joe k beat 38th" when the games have not even been played
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302289
edit woops both parts are super old