Yeah, ultimately that bothers me more than the death itself. If Spoiler's death was handled right, people probably wouldn't have bitched much, but the way Batman was represented as an asshole (no memorial) and Leslie Thompson a negligent bitch (lets her die to prove a point) is what ruined things. Same deal with Jean's death (Cyclops forgets all possibility of her returning and shacks up with the big boobed blonde in bondage) or Spidey's deal with the devil (fuck off MJ, I'm getting me some wheatcakes!).
And I honestly thought Batman would show a kinder side to his adopted daughter, not just because she's a girl, but because her story is very similar to Bruce's, as far as duty to family and such. If anything, I would think he would focus more on getting her to live a normal life and not put so much time into crime fighting, but the way I see it, it's like he wants her to be nothing more than a mindless [strike]killing[/strike] machine, to hell with having any sort of a human life.
Maybe softening him up can be another thing to add in that upcoming Batgirl miniseries, although all I can see at this point is the generic "I was hardest on you because you have the most potential" phooey.
Also, they really turned Beak into a murderous pedophile? He was one of the few New X-Men characters I actually liked (actually got misty eyed when he was forced to club Beast with a baseball bat, followed by his self-hating monologues).
Also, they really turned Beak into a murderous pedophile? He was one of the few New X-Men characters I actually liked (actually got misty eyed when he was forced to club Beast with a baseball bat, followed by his self-hating monologues).
Noooo nonono. I was just using hyperbole to make a point. I was saying that most people who say they don't care when something controversial happens to [x] character will throw a hissyfit when the same thing happens to [y] character.
Beak currently appears in New Warriors under the guise of Warbird, using technology in lieu of mutant powers to continue as a superhero.
Same deal with Jean's death (Cyclops forgets all possibility of her returning and shacks up with the big boobed blonde in bondage)
not to derail the thread, but hey now. the whole run was about cyclops feeling unsatisfied in his relationship with jean, and ultimately ended with jean telling scott to do what he needs to be happy
if "being happy" for scott doesn't entail moping around forever hoping his dead wife comes back to life, then that's actually a pretty healthy, reasonable thing.
i think a hollowpoint would be stopped by body armor, since it has a soft, hollowed-out point
Really? I thought hollow points did more damage because they flattened and spread out on impact. Oh well, I'm not a ballistics expert so maybe I'm thinking of something else. Also I still read New Warriors I actually like the book but I just think its neat how they use all the reverse engineered tech.
Does anybody still read New Warriors? I thought everyone gave up on that a while ago
I read the first few issues, and nothing happened, so I dropped it.
I still like the premise of former mutants using confiscated technology to continue as superheroes, and I love the Paco Medina art, despite the liberties he took with some characters' designs. But it definitely has a lot of problems, which can probably be attributed to Kevin Grevioux being new to writing comics.
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
I'd like to see a Batman and the Outsiders animated series, focused entirely on nonpowered human characters running around Gotham being crazy and fighting crime. I doubt it would start all at once unless they had flashbacks to origins and meet-and-greets, but the main cast would eventually consist of:
Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Red Hood (JT, because Red Robin is a stupid name), Robin (TD), Huntress, Spoiler, Batgirl (CC), Question. Options on more powerful members, past and present, of the comic book Outsiders, and any characters from Birds of Prey.
Since cartoons are for kids it would probably need some alterations of the comic book origins. Red Hood might not have been "killed" by Joker but badly injured in a trap of his and been resentful of Batman, going solo after he recovered; Oracle might have just been in a car crash; and so on.
It would probably threaten to overload the show with emo, but most of the Outsiders would be like Bruce, with a tragedy in their past, a need to lash out at the world, the morality to focus that anger on worthy targets, and entirely too much time on their hands. Question might just view crimefighting as an aside to his attempts to uncover "the truth" (I can't see improving on the Diniverse Question, and if I could I'd get Jeffrey Coombs back), and Spoiler could be in it for the fun, and Oracle might have joined up as the first Batgirl out of a combination of admiration for her dad and Batman (which might make them the most part-timey of the group), but the rest would have painful pasts and be drawn to each other. Like with like, as the saying goes. Sort of like that briliant old game Planescape: Torment.
Shred my idea and tell me I'm an uncreative douche, because seriously I've been toying with this for weeks and nothing short of withering disdain or having it actually picked up by DC's animation studios will get me to stop. And I'm quite aware of which is more likely.
I think a major problem was not bothering to introduce like half the characters until, well, until after I'd already given up on it. And after he killed off a character that I didn't know and couldn't be bothered to figure out because it didn't seem to have any impact.
Same deal with Jean's death (Cyclops forgets all possibility of her returning and shacks up with the big boobed blonde in bondage)
not to derail the thread, but hey now. the whole run was about cyclops feeling unsatisfied in his relationship with jean, and ultimately ended with jean telling scott to do what he needs to be happy
if "being happy" for scott doesn't entail moping around forever hoping his dead wife comes back to life, then that's actually a pretty healthy, reasonable thing.
Well, I only read some of New X-Men and that Dark Phoenix mini series, so I'm probably missing a few details, but it looks to me like Scott and Jean's "break up" all started because Scott was becoming physically attracted to Emma and her advances. That kind of makes Cyclops look like a douchebag, even if Jean was eventually cool with it.
Thing is, it'll only be a matter of time before someone decides to write her back in, and say "Oh, Emma manipulated Scott's mind to love her just like everyone suspected her of doing". I don't mind the Scott/Emma relationship, but I know it's going to go this route eventually.
I really wish that one of these major comic companies would hold a big press release to issue a new rule that, from here on out, all deaths in comics would be permanent. It really would restore a lot of lost emotional impact, knowing that some favorites would wind up dead and buried forever and ever, never to be brought back under contract.
Same deal with Jean's death (Cyclops forgets all possibility of her returning and shacks up with the big boobed blonde in bondage)
not to derail the thread, but hey now. the whole run was about cyclops feeling unsatisfied in his relationship with jean, and ultimately ended with jean telling scott to do what he needs to be happy
if "being happy" for scott doesn't entail moping around forever hoping his dead wife comes back to life, then that's actually a pretty healthy, reasonable thing.
oh good I'm glad someone called this out
I mean I love Jean
and the Dark Phoenix Saga means I also loved Scott/Jean
but the Emma/Scott relationship is better written and more convincing than his relationship with Jean was
Same deal with Jean's death (Cyclops forgets all possibility of her returning and shacks up with the big boobed blonde in bondage)
not to derail the thread, but hey now. the whole run was about cyclops feeling unsatisfied in his relationship with jean, and ultimately ended with jean telling scott to do what he needs to be happy
if "being happy" for scott doesn't entail moping around forever hoping his dead wife comes back to life, then that's actually a pretty healthy, reasonable thing.
Well, I only read some of New X-Men and that Dark Phoenix mini series, so I'm probably missing a few details, but it looks to me like Scott and Jean's "break up" all started because Scott was becoming physically attracted to Emma and her advances. That kind of makes Cyclops look like a douchebag, even if Jean was eventually cool with it.
Thing is, it'll only be a matter of time before someone decides to write her back in, and say "Oh, Emma manipulated Scott's mind to love her just like everyone suspected her of doing". I don't mind the Scott/Emma relationship, but I know it's going to go this route eventually.
I really wish that one of these major comic companies would hold a big press release to issue a new rule that, from here on out, all deaths in comics would be permanent. It really would restore a lot of lost emotional impact, knowing that some favorites would wind up dead and buried forever and ever, never to be brought back under contract.
well no. scott went to emma for therapy because he was feeling weird about him and jean after him being possessed by apocalypse and having his soul stained with ultimate evil, but then he kind of starts to fall for emma and feels real shitty about it but, as sometimes happens to people, he starts having a psychic affair with emma which jean eventually discovers and is understandably upset about. now keep in mind this whole time jean has been reconnecting with the powers of the phoenix force and paying less and less attention to scott as she refines her telekinetic and telepathic abilities. they fight and scott runs away to get drunk and have sad adventures with wolverine and fantomex, who is awesome. meanwhile magneto fucks shit up and jean gets superpowerful and saves her and wolverine from the sun with help from wolverine's pathetic love for her. jean confronts magneto and magneto kills jean with a magnetically induced stroke and as she's dying scott runs up and confesses how sorry he is and how fucked up he's felt since the whole apocalypse thing and jean's like dude honey i totally understand because i'm the world's most powerful telepath and also i'm fucking dying here but i love you and you should live life and do what you need to do to be happy because who knows when or if i'll be back. then jean has a vision of a patented X-Men alternate future where if scott doesn't fuck emma frost, everyone dies horribly, so then cue scott and emma 4eva.
I could see them trying to shoehorn Jason Todd into the Batman role, just to justify his story in COUNTDOWN.
Do you really think that they'd make a character that was killed by reader vote into the next Batman? People hated Jason Todd enough to kill him off 20 years ago. His re-emergence and subsequent horrible storyline in Countdown have not done him any good in the public eye. He is still loathed and despised. Jason Todd is the worst Batman choice ever.
If DC took a vote to kill him again, he would die again.
Given DC's track record for forcing changes that fans don't like (see: raping Sue Dibny, Killing Blue Beetle, continuously employing Judd Winnick and Bruce Jones, OYL, COUNTDOWN, turning well-loved Elseworld characters into Grindhouse fodder, DONG (heh) - I'm sure I'm leaving some other things out) - yeah, I could see them saying, "Fuck this - we're making Todd the next Batman". I mean, it'd be just as popular as AzBats, right?
I don't know - this time, they could at least say, "Hey, we know you're not happy about the Jason Todd Batman situation, but Grant Morrison and Paul Dini are writing the character!"
Jason Todd should just be taken out of the Batman books altogether. There's no room for him there.
Instead, put him on Task Force X or something.
And yeah, it'd be kind of weird for Jason Todd (or Dick) to become Batman when he hasn't had much of a presence in the series in Morrison's stories. Considering, that, it's either Tim or Damien, and Damien would have to be hyper-aged by some kind of plot contrivance to qualify as Batman.
Jason Todd should just be taken out of the Batman books altogether. There's no room for him there.
I disagree, I think they're the only books he works in. I actually liked what Winick did with Jason, making him an "anti-hero" with a grudge against the Bat-Family. I didn't read the story in Green Arrow that had Jason in it, but I don't know why he would be in that book to begin with.
He had potential after he was brought back, but they've pretty much ruined their chances with him now.
Jason Todd should just be taken out of the Batman books altogether. There's no room for him there.
Instead, put him on Task Force X or something.
And yeah, it'd be kind of weird for Jason Todd to become Batman when he hasn't had much of a presence in the series in Morrison's stories. Considering, that, it's either Tim or Damien, and Damien would have to be hyper-aged by some kind of plot contrivance to qualify as Batman.
I agree- but again, DC's editorial judgement has been shit for years now, and this way, they can fall back on the old "See? We had a plan all along!" chestnut.
I disagree, I think they're the only books he works in. I actually liked what Winick did with Jason, making him an "anti-hero" with a grudge against the Bat-Family. I didn't read the story in Green Arrow that had Jason in it, but I don't know why he would be in that book to begin with.
He had potential after he was brought back, but they've pretty much ruined their chances with him now.
Yeah, I was speaking in terms of what's possible for the character now, and right now the only possibility for him in the pages of Batman is to linger on the periphery as the angry ex-Robin who hurts people extra hard, inevitably retreading the same path he walked when he first returned and maybe getting redeemed when DC gets bored with that, only to die in some crossover.
I think it'll be a long while before he's ever a welcome addition to the Batman books, much less a candidate for a lead role.
"Retreading the same path every so often and maybe getting redeemed at some point" - that doesn't sound like the comics DC has been putting out for the last 3-4 years at all, does it?
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And I honestly thought Batman would show a kinder side to his adopted daughter, not just because she's a girl, but because her story is very similar to Bruce's, as far as duty to family and such. If anything, I would think he would focus more on getting her to live a normal life and not put so much time into crime fighting, but the way I see it, it's like he wants her to be nothing more than a mindless [strike]killing[/strike] machine, to hell with having any sort of a human life.
Maybe softening him up can be another thing to add in that upcoming Batgirl miniseries, although all I can see at this point is the generic "I was hardest on you because you have the most potential" phooey.
Also, they really turned Beak into a murderous pedophile? He was one of the few New X-Men characters I actually liked (actually got misty eyed when he was forced to club Beast with a baseball bat, followed by his self-hating monologues).
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Noooo nonono. I was just using hyperbole to make a point. I was saying that most people who say they don't care when something controversial happens to [x] character will throw a hissyfit when the same thing happens to [y] character.
Beak currently appears in New Warriors under the guise of Warbird, using technology in lieu of mutant powers to continue as a superhero.
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not to derail the thread, but hey now. the whole run was about cyclops feeling unsatisfied in his relationship with jean, and ultimately ended with jean telling scott to do what he needs to be happy
if "being happy" for scott doesn't entail moping around forever hoping his dead wife comes back to life, then that's actually a pretty healthy, reasonable thing.
Really? I thought hollow points did more damage because they flattened and spread out on impact. Oh well, I'm not a ballistics expert so maybe I'm thinking of something else. Also I still read New Warriors I actually like the book but I just think its neat how they use all the reverse engineered tech.
I read the first few issues, and nothing happened, so I dropped it.
I still like the premise of former mutants using confiscated technology to continue as superheroes, and I love the Paco Medina art, despite the liberties he took with some characters' designs. But it definitely has a lot of problems, which can probably be attributed to Kevin Grevioux being new to writing comics.
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Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Red Hood (JT, because Red Robin is a stupid name), Robin (TD), Huntress, Spoiler, Batgirl (CC), Question. Options on more powerful members, past and present, of the comic book Outsiders, and any characters from Birds of Prey.
Since cartoons are for kids
It would probably threaten to overload the show with emo, but most of the Outsiders would be like Bruce, with a tragedy in their past, a need to lash out at the world, the morality to focus that anger on worthy targets, and entirely too much time on their hands. Question might just view crimefighting as an aside to his attempts to uncover "the truth" (I can't see improving on the Diniverse Question, and if I could I'd get Jeffrey Coombs back), and Spoiler could be in it for the fun, and Oracle might have joined up as the first Batgirl out of a combination of admiration for her dad and Batman (which might make them the most part-timey of the group), but the rest would have painful pasts and be drawn to each other. Like with like, as the saying goes. Sort of like that briliant old game Planescape: Torment.
Shred my idea and tell me I'm an uncreative douche, because seriously I've been toying with this for weeks and nothing short of withering disdain or having it actually picked up by DC's animation studios will get me to stop. And I'm quite aware of which is more likely.
Well, I only read some of New X-Men and that Dark Phoenix mini series, so I'm probably missing a few details, but it looks to me like Scott and Jean's "break up" all started because Scott was becoming physically attracted to Emma and her advances. That kind of makes Cyclops look like a douchebag, even if Jean was eventually cool with it.
Thing is, it'll only be a matter of time before someone decides to write her back in, and say "Oh, Emma manipulated Scott's mind to love her just like everyone suspected her of doing". I don't mind the Scott/Emma relationship, but I know it's going to go this route eventually.
I really wish that one of these major comic companies would hold a big press release to issue a new rule that, from here on out, all deaths in comics would be permanent. It really would restore a lot of lost emotional impact, knowing that some favorites would wind up dead and buried forever and ever, never to be brought back under contract.
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oh good I'm glad someone called this out
I mean I love Jean
and the Dark Phoenix Saga means I also loved Scott/Jean
but the Emma/Scott relationship is better written and more convincing than his relationship with Jean was
well no. scott went to emma for therapy because he was feeling weird about him and jean after him being possessed by apocalypse and having his soul stained with ultimate evil, but then he kind of starts to fall for emma and feels real shitty about it but, as sometimes happens to people, he starts having a psychic affair with emma which jean eventually discovers and is understandably upset about. now keep in mind this whole time jean has been reconnecting with the powers of the phoenix force and paying less and less attention to scott as she refines her telekinetic and telepathic abilities. they fight and scott runs away to get drunk and have sad adventures with wolverine and fantomex, who is awesome. meanwhile magneto fucks shit up and jean gets superpowerful and saves her and wolverine from the sun with help from wolverine's pathetic love for her. jean confronts magneto and magneto kills jean with a magnetically induced stroke and as she's dying scott runs up and confesses how sorry he is and how fucked up he's felt since the whole apocalypse thing and jean's like dude honey i totally understand because i'm the world's most powerful telepath and also i'm fucking dying here but i love you and you should live life and do what you need to do to be happy because who knows when or if i'll be back. then jean has a vision of a patented X-Men alternate future where if scott doesn't fuck emma frost, everyone dies horribly, so then cue scott and emma 4eva.
god it's such a soap opera.
I mean I have a lot of problems with Grant's New X-Men
but fuck I love Here Comes Tomorrow
but I mean the whole Phoenix reaching back and tweaking Scott so he would agree to run the school with Emma
I am a sucker for that stuff
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whats up Servo are you reading Legacy hey I like Batman
and they already said, "some journeys don't go anywhere" about Jason's role in countdown
Do you really think that they'd make a character that was killed by reader vote into the next Batman? People hated Jason Todd enough to kill him off 20 years ago. His re-emergence and subsequent horrible storyline in Countdown have not done him any good in the public eye. He is still loathed and despised. Jason Todd is the worst Batman choice ever.
If DC took a vote to kill him again, he would die again.
Instead, put him on Task Force X or something.
And yeah, it'd be kind of weird for Jason Todd (or Dick) to become Batman when he hasn't had much of a presence in the series in Morrison's stories. Considering, that, it's either Tim or Damien, and Damien would have to be hyper-aged by some kind of plot contrivance to qualify as Batman.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
yes
I disagree, I think they're the only books he works in. I actually liked what Winick did with Jason, making him an "anti-hero" with a grudge against the Bat-Family. I didn't read the story in Green Arrow that had Jason in it, but I don't know why he would be in that book to begin with.
He had potential after he was brought back, but they've pretty much ruined their chances with him now.
I agree- but again, DC's editorial judgement has been shit for years now, and this way, they can fall back on the old "See? We had a plan all along!" chestnut.
Yeah, I was speaking in terms of what's possible for the character now, and right now the only possibility for him in the pages of Batman is to linger on the periphery as the angry ex-Robin who hurts people extra hard, inevitably retreading the same path he walked when he first returned and maybe getting redeemed when DC gets bored with that, only to die in some crossover.
I think it'll be a long while before he's ever a welcome addition to the Batman books, much less a candidate for a lead role.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
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