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Misogyny and Rape Culture on Campus

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  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Just from reading the thread, I get the feeling that you and a few others may be projecting a bit with that last sentence.

    I am going to quote you, Kana, because it is close at hand.
    That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.

    If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.

    Basically as far as I'm understanding even the reasonable sounding definitions of "rape culture" - every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful. It's shocking but not illuminating.

    My point here is, I think you (and others) might need to be a bit less reflexive. Feral's definitions are much closer to what the standard accepted definition of 'rape culture' actually is, in academic circles at least. And, that being said, it follows from this premise that the assumption should first be made that the usage Feral (and others) describe is how the term is being presented, and the "loading" of the term should be determined after.

    Does this make sense? I am not trying to be an asshole or snarky, so I hope it doesn't come off that way.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.

    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part. This is why I reject "rape culture" as a premise. I think in our culture anything pro-rape is considered inherently counter-cultural.

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Casual wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.

    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part. This is why I reject "rape culture" as a premise. I think in our culture anything pro-rape is considered inherently counter-cultural.

    Then you fundamentally misunderstand the premise of "rape culture".

    Arch on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.
    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I don't think it's that so much, because to be honest I've never seen a pro-rape agenda in anything anywhere. If I understand it right, rape culture is about trying to make a rape seem like something else; IE "it's not rape just because she's drunk" if that makes any sense? :P

    Dark Raven X on
    Oh brilliant
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.

    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part. This is why I reject "rape culture" as a premise. I think in our culture anything pro-rape is considered inherently counter-cultural.

    Then you fundamentally misunderstand the premise of "rape culture".

    How so?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.
    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I don't think it's that so much, because to be honest if I've ever seen a pro-rape agenda in anything anywhere. If I understand it right, rape culture is about trying to make a rape seem like something else; IE "it's not rape just because she's drunk" if that makes any sense? :P

    Trying to portray a rape as not-rape is one form of it, sure.

    It can also include "it was rape, but it wasn't a big deal. No reason to get upset about it." More common with male-on-male rape, I'd say. This might include "it was rape, but they deserved it" as in prison rape or "sure, I guess that's rape by the textbook definition, but it was funny" as in that scene in Wedding Crashers. It still exists regarding other forms of rape, though. It's not just a male-on-male thing.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Nope.

    Which culture isn't a rape culture?

    While people sometimes make comments like "We live in a rape culture," I feel that those comments are counterproductive.

    I don't like the idea of there being a hegemonic rape culture; or that "rape culture" is a descriptor that might be applied to, say, a country.

    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture. Such elements do not damn the entire culture to shame.

    See, and a definition like that I'm waaay more favorable towards. For one thing it's actually useful as a way of describing and educating.

    Unfortunately I don't get the sense that that's how most people who use the phrase intend it.

    Honestly, as far as mainstream American/European first-world culture goes, I think the total sum of forces discouraging rape are greater than the total sum of forces encouraging it. That's a really grandiose claim, and I feel weird making it, but there it is.

    I think that the very fact that we're having this conversation on the premise that rape is bad demonstrates that. We're talking about how to reduce the frequency of something we agree is an atrocity.

    There are places where this is not the case! I think it's fair to say that in some prison cultures, male-on-male rape is accepted as a way of victimizing people who have transgressed some boundary.

    I personally feel that we live in an anti-rape culture, we just have the power to make it more clearly and consistently anti-rape.

    I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part. This is why I reject "rape culture" as a premise. I think in our culture anything pro-rape is considered inherently counter-cultural.

    Then you fundamentally misunderstand the premise of "rape culture".

    How so?

    From the OP:
    I don't think what the original poster did was really that bad, it's a kind of offensive drinking song and it's kind of clever and I chuckled.

    I guess if you disagree that the song in the form posted in the OP portrays forced copulation as a positive, then I don't know where else to go.

    Then, we have the OP of this thread say he thinks it was "kind of clever".

    That is "rape culture", as the song is perceived as pro-rape, and seen as positive by at least n=1 individual.

    "She asked for it!" "Going to prison, gonna get raped I guess!" "We raped them so bad they surrendered at 10 minutes in!"

    I think all those phrases are pretty enshrined in our culture, which makes them by definition not counter culture.

  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    And the normalization of all those phrases and attitudes (and more!) is part of what "rape culture" is, in discussions like these.

    To quote Feral again
    I prefer the concept of "rape culture" as "those elements of a given culture that facilitate rape." These elements may be present in greater or lesser degrees in any given culture or subculture.

    I would add that I think he should tack on "facilitate or trivialize" to his description, but I think he may be lumping those together.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    I think that a lot popular attitudes regarding rape tend to be contradictory and confused, because our notions of consent are primitive.
    Arch wrote: »
    I would add that I think he should tack on "facilitate or trivialize" to his description

    Yes. Absolutely without hesitation.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    I have a very hard time believing "she asked for it" is enshrined in our culture.

    The other two yeah, they're accepted.

  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    I think that a lot popular attitudes regarding rape tend to be contradictory and confused, because our notions of consent are primitive.

    Yes

  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    There may not be much in the way of "danced suggestively", but a lot of blithe comments about how often women go for rape allegations after merely regretting banging a fellow with consent, and of course the whole "Saying no is sometimes just meant to string you along a bit" thing.

    "Rape culture" is a pointed term, but saying Breivik's actions didn't happen in a vacuum doesn't mean you are claiming every anti-immigration sentiment or person is increasing the chances of another Utoya massacre.

    It should be pointed out a culture can be more or less conducive to bacterial growth, and I guess a culture can be more or less conducive to good relations between men and women. It's a spectrum, not a dichotomy.

    Edit: Grid System has the right of it.

    I wonder how many rapists express shame, regret or self-image shock and proper moral disgust after the fact, though. That figure should be important.

    Absalon on
    We are all as God made us and frequently much worse
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    Bethryn wrote: »
    I have a very hard time believing "she asked for it" is enshrined in our culture.

    The other two yeah, they're accepted.

    Nowadays, "she asked for it" is more likely expressed as, "what did she expect?" "sometimes you have to be more careful," or other claims that survivors need to be or should have been "more responsible". Anything that puts the onus of preventing rape on people other than rapists, or that suggests that people can control whether they are raped or not, is a part of rape culture.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Bethryn wrote: »
    I have a very hard time believing "she asked for it" is enshrined in our culture.

    He asked for it is definitely enshrined in American culture, as far as prison rape is concerned.

    It probably isn't quite so well-accepted in, for example, the UK, because of our particularly punitive attitude towards criminals.

    I do think that "she asked for it" is an implicit subtext in victim-blaming and slut-shaming. A particularly noteworthy example was from the coverage immediately following 2010's Cleveland, TX gang-rape incident. As GQ described it (http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201109/texas-gang-rape-11-year-old-girl-story):
    By mid-December, TV-news trucks were gathered outside the high school. Reporters ducked into pews at church services and, notebooks in hand, grimly worked the playgrounds. Each new development brought another wave of media attention. Frustrated, a Cleveland teenager posted on Facebook, "man yall y r we still on the fuckin news they need to let that shit go." The story, already red-hot, became inflammatory when it was reported that all of the suspects were black and the victim Hispanic. Friends and relatives of the men and boys were quoted defending them and blaming the girl, who they said acted much older than 11, wearing makeup and sexy clothes. They speculated that she had probably lied about her age, so how were the males to know? The New York Times was roundly castigated for its "rape-friendly" coverage of the assault, which was heavy on sympathetic quotes about the defendants and uncritical of malicious comments about the victim. After receiving tens of thousands of readers' complaints, the Times took the extraordinary step of sending its reporter back to Cleveland for a do-over, and the media began to cover its own coverage. Clearly no one was planning to "let that shit go" anytime soon.

    Taken on a completely denotative, logical level, you can say that these comments do not justify actual rape, they just try to portray the incident as not really rape.

    However, I don't see them that way. I see a subtext there that even if it had been rape, it was at least partially justified by the victim's slutty behavior.

    This happens on a smaller scale, and is not often reported on in the media, with prostitutes who are raped. Anybody who's done social work with sex workers can attest that sex workers are often afraid of going to the police not merely because their own activities were illegal but because of an attitude that rape of prostitutes isn't really rape.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    From their reptilian brains and terrible values and socializing with other similar people.

    mrt144 on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    From their reptilian brains and terrible values and socializing with other similar people.

    Yes, so let's bring it full circle and realize what this says about society at large.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    Excuse me while I get all Marxist here and lump racism and sexism under classism instead of parallel to it.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    I like how we have to point to war-torn countries as places where "rape culture," can be considered legitimate. Remember a chapter of a frat at my university posed the question If you could rape anyone, who would it be? To new pledges. If you're going to deny that as evidence of rape culture, you're playing mental gymnastics.

    I don't think you can hold up one gross fraternity as evidence of the existence of a rape culture outside of that fraternity.

    I'm saying this as someone who actually knows what the term "rape culture" means and believes that we live in one.

    For those who are disagreeing: just to clarify, the term doesn't mean that the culture supports or glorifies rape as a whole. There is rarely explicit support for rape, although it does happen in many subcultural groups. The problem is the way our culture frames, defines and reacts to rape, namely 1) rapists don't think they're committing rape, or don't think rape is harmful, or think it's justified, and 2) rape is frequent and is committed by people who are not dramatically antisocial or maladjusted.

    Of course the term is inflammatory; whatever term is used will be inflammatory, because it is jarring to respond to the idea that sexual assault is an endemic and institutionalized problem even aside from the inherent issues of ambiguous consent, lack of witnesses, misinterpreted communication, etc.

    So we have rape culture because we view rape in the same way we do all crimes?

  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Yes, so let's bring it full circle and realize what this says about society at large.
    That appeal to tradition is an awful thing and we need to kick it in the balls as an accepted method of rhetorical argument?

    The GOP loves its past. And because part of its past was not giving a damn about women, it loves that. It refuses to let go of things because "they worked fine when I was growing up 70 years ago so they should work for kids these days", and in doing so tries to hold onto a load of horseshit that needs to be shovelled out the door.


    Also, yeah, that makes a lot more sense on the "she asked for it" issue guys.

    Bethryn on
  • EddEdd Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Bethryn wrote: »
    I have a very hard time believing "she asked for it" is enshrined in our culture.

    The other two yeah, they're accepted.

    Nowadays, "she asked for it" is more likely expressed as, "what did she expect?" "sometimes you have to be more careful," or other claims that survivors need to be or should have been "more responsible". Anything that puts the onus of preventing rape on people other than rapists, or that suggests that people can control whether they are raped or not, is a part of rape culture.

    Indeed. I think it's also worth considering the climate of broader sexual culture, not just some specific "rape" contagion in that sort of explanation. Sorry to be anecdotal, so please take this with a grain of salt. But, it wasn't that long ago that I was an undergrad, and I can remember people - basically adults - discussing sex through innuendo and suggestion like dialog about sex were its own dialect. Even the word "sex" gets replaced by much vaguer euphemisms like "hooking up," which can refer to a whole range of activities depending on who you ask. The gradual breakdown of "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" as discrete, stable categories has probably also made talking about (and engaging in) sex a lot more of a vague enterprise (though sex outside of a monogamous relationship is not at all a bad thing in itself). So on the one hand, sex is everywhere in culture, and on the other, I get the feeling a lot of young, sexually active people are surprisingly bad at communicating to one another about it, which is why I think it becomes very easy to rationalize something like "Oh hey, Bill can't be a rapist, remember all the winks and nudges he was getting?"

    Again, anecdotal. Nor does it make Bill any less at fault.

    Edd on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Sheep wrote: »
    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    Excuse me while I get all Marxist here and lump racism and sexism under classism instead of parallel to it.

    I will not! Though honestly, all three and many others are forms of Othering. *pushes glasses up bridge of nose

    Lh96QHG.png
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Yes, so let's bring it full circle and realize what this says about society at large.
    That appeal to tradition is an awful thing and we need to kick it in the balls as an accepted method of rhetorical argument?

    The GOP loves its past. And because part of its past was not giving a damn about women, it loves that. It refuses to let go of things because "they worked fine when I was growing up 70 years ago so they should work for kids these days", and in doing so tries to hold onto a load of horseshit that needs to be shovelled out the door.


    Also, yeah, that makes a lot more sense on the "she asked for it" issue guys.

    Indeed, and the appeal to tradition is all about solidifying WASPy Male Privilege. The best example in current parlance that speaks about rape culture is the hodgepodge over Sandra Fluke and birth control in general.

    AManFromEarth on
    Lh96QHG.png
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Demonstration, please.

    The spread of anti-semitism in Europe.

    With Love and Courage
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.

    Squidget0 on
    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    From their reptilian brains and terrible values and socializing with other similar people.

    Yes, so let's bring it full circle and realize what this says about society at large.

    We don't have the means to purge elements in society that some find distasteful?

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear that rape is less acceptable now, than at any other point in history at least in the United States. That doesn't diminish the problem but I would argue that it shows that it's not clear that there is a pervasive and dominating thought in regards to rape culture.

    Where do you think the GOP is getting their bullshit ideas? There is still a disturbingly large segment of the population that doesn't understand or, more worryingly, doesn't care about this kind of thing. Just like racism and classism, sexism (of which "rape culture" is a part) is still very much a problem we need to deal with.

    From their reptilian brains and terrible values and socializing with other similar people.

    Yes, so let's bring it full circle and realize what this says about society at large.

    We don't have the means to purge elements in society that some find distasteful?

    More that there is still a large swath of the population for which this kind of thing is acceptable, so it's not really something that isn't "pervasive and dominating" in my opinion. Progress does not equal victory.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.
    Just because you claim that rape culture means a particular thing does not mean it actually does. Rape culture and misogynist culture overlap but they are in no way the same thing. For one thing, rape culture is not just about women, it is also about men. Cultural memes like men can't be raped by a woman because their dick wouldn't be hard or certain types of prisoners "deserve" to be rape are part of rape culture but are not particularly misogynisitic. Rape culture in no way means that everyone who participates in rape culture is a rapist. Rape culture is in part the fact that in certain spaces, the most apparent voices are the loudest and not the actual majority. Take this quote from the second page of this thread:
    Edd wrote: »
    ...That does sound a bit harsh. The real problem with public shaming is that it suggests the perversity of the minority you have selected for the shaming. The larger problem is that these guys aren't freaks. By all accounts, they're probably pretty normal, but had the good fortune of saying the wrong thing in the wrong place.
    I don't know for sure about the "normal" in Edd's physical surroundings, but the consensus has been pretty clear that "normal" in this thread does not include singing songs like this (no matter what one thinks of the response).

    The other problem with your post is that a not insignificant proportion of rapists hate rapists. Look through basically any previous D&D rape thread and you will find posters proudly declaring that they have done "x" and they aren't rapists so clearly "x" isn't rape. Several have gone on to further justify that they aren't rapists because clearly they are feminists by virtue of some other act or belief. Talking about misogyny isn't going to help. Rape culture and talking about it is a way to help people step back and look at their actions within a bigger picture than just their motivations and responses.

    One thing that hasn't been discussed in this thread is that drunk buses are generally advertised as a safe ride home. They are not public spaces and free speech has nothing to do with what is appropriate speech on this type of bus. The relevant question for appropriate speech on such a bus should be whether or not a certain type of speech is likely to make the bus feel less safe to drunk people.

    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    Squidget0 wrote:
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.

    I don't think that "rape culture" and "misogynist culture" are interchangeable terms. A rape culture is a culture that normalizes rape, and makes it relatively easier for rapists to get away with rape than for survivors to find closure. A misogynist culture is a culture that is hostile to women. Obviously there can be a lot of overlap between the two, but they also each encompass phenomena that have nothing to do with the other. The sympathy for Chris Brown after he beat Rihanna might be an example of a misogynist culture in that they put the "suffering" of male perpetrator and female survivor on the same level. That doesn't really speak to anything rape-related though. The acceptance of rape in prisons as not only a matter of course but an essential part of the punitive nature of prisons might be an example of rape culture. Since most of the survivors are men, surely that doesn't really show much hostility to women.

  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    Here's the thing that bugs me about these discussion when they come up (less so here since this is mostly civil, more so during the heated times we've heard about this):

    It seems one of the goals of those proposing there is a thing called rape culture and that we should act to change it is that we should accept responsibility for not only the content and intent of our words, but also their perception by those around us - that we should be mindful of how our words will be perceived by others, how they will make others feel, and even the environment they would foster when spoken in certain contexts.

    Fine, sure...and then they fire off accusations of promoting "rape culture", a term that has been shown time and again to be loaded as all hell and to set people off and make them indignant. "Rape culture" has an academic definition, of course, but good luck knowing what it is from those two words alone - people are going to take those words at face value, assume it means "a culture of rape", and reflexively point out one of the myriad ways how our society is actually, demonstrably, against rape. (Of course, what really got me going during that big deal around here which will remain nameless was the final, last step the accusers took of abdicating themselves of responsibility to define their own terms or even be conscientious of how their demeanor was killing reasonable discourse despite and while still trying to make their point about the significance of perception of words).

    Never mind that the word "rape" itself is also loaded, so much so that there have been efforts to remove the term entirely from the law in some jurisdictions (much like "murder" before it).

    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Sheep wrote: »
    Excuse me while I get all Marxist here and lump racism and sexism under classism instead of parallel to it.

    Racism (at least in the form of tribalism) and sexism definitely predate capitalism as we understand it, if not classism itself. Conflating prejudice and bigotry into classism (or capitalism, or some other form of disproportionate social hierarchy) has the unfortunate and usually unintended connotation of implying that those forms of prejudice are lesser symptoms of the greater problem, and that advocates against racism and sexism would be better served by not advocating against those things but instead by advocating against classism (or capitalism, etc).

  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Squidget0 wrote:
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.

    I don't think that "rape culture" and "misogynist culture" are interchangeable terms. A rape culture is a culture that normalizes rape, and makes it relatively easier for rapists to get away with rape than for survivors to find closure. A misogynist culture is a culture that is hostile to women. Obviously there can be a lot of overlap between the two, but they also each encompass phenomena that have nothing to do with the other. The sympathy for Chris Brown after he beat Rihanna might be an example of a misogynist culture in that they put the "suffering" of male perpetrator and female survivor on the same level. That doesn't really speak to anything rape-related though. The acceptance of rape in prisons as not only a matter of course but an essential part of the punitive nature of prisons might be an example of rape culture. Since most of the survivors are men, surely that doesn't really show much hostility to women.

    Okay, then it's a bullshit term because it's trying to draw some kind of bizarre meta-narrative between a bunch of culturally unrelated things, like the warped sense of justice we have towards criminals vs. how we as a society feel about women. We shouldn't use it because it's inflammatory and meaningless.

    The song this thread is about was misogynist. It was targeted specifically at women. Both the professor in the OP and the people responding here have been talking about a misogynist culture. To say that this thread has been about some wider narrative that somehow incorporates all sorts of unrelated rapes seems disingenuous, at best. Realistically, this thread has been about how men on college campuses feel about women. Calling that a "rape culture" is just a cheap way to put people who disagree with you in the same sentence as violent criminals.

    Come on. I know you hate this stuff when the "other side" of issues you care about does it. When they associate their political opponents with nazis or associate women who get abortions with murderers. I see people on this forum speak out against those kinds of tactics daily. All that these meaningless phrases accomplish is to further entrench us in our viewpoints and make it easier to hate the other side.

    Squidget0 on
    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote:
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.

    I don't think that "rape culture" and "misogynist culture" are interchangeable terms. A rape culture is a culture that normalizes rape, and makes it relatively easier for rapists to get away with rape than for survivors to find closure. A misogynist culture is a culture that is hostile to women. Obviously there can be a lot of overlap between the two, but they also each encompass phenomena that have nothing to do with the other. The sympathy for Chris Brown after he beat Rihanna might be an example of a misogynist culture in that they put the "suffering" of male perpetrator and female survivor on the same level. That doesn't really speak to anything rape-related though. The acceptance of rape in prisons as not only a matter of course but an essential part of the punitive nature of prisons might be an example of rape culture. Since most of the survivors are men, surely that doesn't really show much hostility to women.

    Okay, then it's a bullshit term because it's trying to draw some kind of bizarre meta-narrative between a bunch of culturally unrelated things, like the warped sense of justice we have towards criminals vs. how we as a society feel about women. We shouldn't use it because it's inflammatory and meaningless.

    The song this thread is about was misogynist. It was targeted specifically at women. Both the professor in the OP and the people responding here have been talking about a misogynist culture. To say that this thread has been about some wider narrative that somehow incorporates all sorts of unrelated rapes seems disingenuous, at best. Realistically, this thread has been about how men on college campuses feel about women. Calling that a "rape culture" is just a cheap way to put people who disagree with you in the same sentence as violent criminals.

    Come on. I know you hate this stuff when the "other side" of issues you care about does it. When they associate their political opponents with nazis or associate women who get abortions with murderers. I see people on this forum speak out against those kinds of tactics daily. All that these meaningless phrases accomplish is to further entrench us in our viewpoints and make it easier to hate the other side.
    Rape culture isn't something that only people that disagree with it participate in. I participate in rape culture all the time. When I notice it or have someone point it out to me I generally try to change the way I act, but it is absolutely not something that only people that disagree with the term participate in.

    The song was about rape. It was about a misogynistic type of rape, but it was still about rape.

    EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I do not consider myself nor anyone else that participates in rape culture to automatically be violent criminals or in any way akin to a rapist. It is just something I work on like eating more fresh foods or not procrastinating written assignments until the last night.

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    Here's the thing that bugs me about these discussion when they come up (less so here since this is mostly civil, more so during the heated times we've heard about this):

    It seems one of the goals of those proposing there is a thing called rape culture and that we should act to change it is that we should accept responsibility for not only the content and intent of our words, but also their perception by those around us - that we should be mindful of how our words will be perceived by others, how they will make others feel, and even the environment they would foster when spoken in certain contexts.

    Fine, sure...and then they fire off accusations of promoting "rape culture", a term that has been shown time and again to be loaded as all hell and to set people off and make them indignant. "Rape culture" has an academic definition, of course, but good luck knowing what it is from those two words alone - people are going to take those words at face value, assume it means "a culture of rape", and reflexively point out one of the myriad ways how our society is actually, demonstrably, against rape. (Of course, what really got me going during that big deal around here which will remain nameless was the final, last step the accusers took of abdicating themselves of responsibility to define their own terms or even be conscientious of how their demeanor was killing reasonable discourse despite and while still trying to make their point about the significance of perception of words).

    Never mind that the word "rape" itself is also loaded, so much so that there have been efforts to remove the term entirely from the law in some jurisdictions (much like "murder" before it).

    I think it's okay to use inflammatory rhetoric in the context of open debate. If people are going to come to the table to explicitly exchange ideas, they need to do so without letting their delicate sensibilities get in the way. The thing about "rape culture" as a concept is that it tries to draw attention to all the hidden and subtle ways that a given culture is problematic when it comes to its treatment of rape. Your suggestion that because people who argue that rape culture is a real thing urge others to watch their words in some contexts, they themselves must watch their words in a different context, isn't terribly compelling.

  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Kistra wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote:
    Calling a misogynist culture a "rape culture" is a lot like Sean Hannity saying that Barack Obama's is running a "socialist administration." It's pushing your opponent into an extremist version of their views in order to score cheap emotional points with those who already agree with you.

    And just like Hannity, you can walk it back. You can say that what you actually mean by rape/socialism is that the person is acting in a way that enables and normalizes rape/socialism, and that it's a slippery slope down that dark path. You can say that they're connected to rapists/socialists using weird six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon style reasoning. You can actually put together a pretty good argument that, if you squint and exaggerate and take the words you use at their broadest possible definitions, then what you said technically wasn't a lie.

    But it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit. We can all agree that there's a huge amount of misogyny in our culture, but we shouldn't need to resort to Fox News-level rhetoric to call it what it is. It's a misogynist culture, not a "rape culture." The guy was singing a misogynist song and the people cheering him on are probably misogynists. They're not rapists, and trying to compare them to rapists hurts honest debate and trivializes the suffering of actual women who have been actually raped.

    And the worst of it is, using that sort of language probably delays cultural change in the long term. 90% of misogynists aren't rapists and would tell you with 100% honesty that they hate rapists. Misogyny takes all kinds of forms, and in the minds of most misogynists a phrase like "rape culture" only exonerates them. "Man, I hate rapists just like those women do, I guess I don't need to change my behavior at all." Inflammatory phrases are a great way to rile up the people who already agree with you, but they are not going to change minds, and changing minds is at the core of any cultural debate.

    I don't think that "rape culture" and "misogynist culture" are interchangeable terms. A rape culture is a culture that normalizes rape, and makes it relatively easier for rapists to get away with rape than for survivors to find closure. A misogynist culture is a culture that is hostile to women. Obviously there can be a lot of overlap between the two, but they also each encompass phenomena that have nothing to do with the other. The sympathy for Chris Brown after he beat Rihanna might be an example of a misogynist culture in that they put the "suffering" of male perpetrator and female survivor on the same level. That doesn't really speak to anything rape-related though. The acceptance of rape in prisons as not only a matter of course but an essential part of the punitive nature of prisons might be an example of rape culture. Since most of the survivors are men, surely that doesn't really show much hostility to women.

    Okay, then it's a bullshit term because it's trying to draw some kind of bizarre meta-narrative between a bunch of culturally unrelated things, like the warped sense of justice we have towards criminals vs. how we as a society feel about women. We shouldn't use it because it's inflammatory and meaningless.

    The song this thread is about was misogynist. It was targeted specifically at women. Both the professor in the OP and the people responding here have been talking about a misogynist culture. To say that this thread has been about some wider narrative that somehow incorporates all sorts of unrelated rapes seems disingenuous, at best. Realistically, this thread has been about how men on college campuses feel about women. Calling that a "rape culture" is just a cheap way to put people who disagree with you in the same sentence as violent criminals.

    Come on. I know you hate this stuff when the "other side" of issues you care about does it. When they associate their political opponents with nazis or associate women who get abortions with murderers. I see people on this forum speak out against those kinds of tactics daily. All that these meaningless phrases accomplish is to further entrench us in our viewpoints and make it easier to hate the other side.
    Rape culture isn't something that only people that disagree with it participate in. I participate in rape culture all the time. When I notice it or have someone point it out to me I generally try to change the way I act, but it is absolutely not something that only people that disagree with the term participate in.

    The song was about rape. It was about a misogynistic type of rape, but it was still about rape.

    EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I do not consider myself nor anyone else that participates in rape culture to automatically be violent criminals or in any way akin to a rapist. It is just something I work on like eating more fresh foods or not procrastinating written assignments until the last night.

    Sure, but can you see how that sort of inflammatory language would turn away someone who wasn't already aware of the issue of cultural misogyny? I sometimes have to monitor my behavior when I play online games, being careful not to get too caught up in the heat of the moment and say something hurtful. However, when I hear a Jack Thompson call my game a murder simulator I recoil. There might be real issues with the portrayal of violence in games and how it affects people, but it's hard to argue about them when the people on the other side use such dishonest and polarizing terminology.

    Again, it's not that the terminology is inaccurate ("murder simulator" is technically an accurate way of describing most shooters), it's that it turns away the very people who's minds you're trying to change. The casual misogynists and frat boys who'd sing a song about rape but never do it. This kid isn't going to remember this as the time when he was taught an important lesson about cultural misogyny, he's going to remember it as the time when some radical man-hating feminist called him a rapist because he sang a song on a bus.

    You don't have to defend misogyny to think that "rape culture" is a terrible inflammatory term. It just is. It's obvious if you look at it from the perspective of anyone who's not already convinced on this issue.

    Squidget0 on
    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    What does "pro-rape" mean? If you asked Liz Trotta "Do you think rape is great?", she would probably say "No", sure, but the insistence that rape is ordinary and expected for women in the military, and arguing that we should spend less and not more on support services for sexual assault survivors in the military certainly contributes to an environment wherein rape is more likely to happen again and again.

    And yet there were a ton of people outraged at her stupidity, including a lot of people from the military.

    That's my problem with "rape-culture" as a phrase. If one stupid loudmouth starts blabbing about how women deserve what they get we're a rape culture.

    If thousands of people, both men and women, are completely offended by that stupidity and decry that misogyny ... We're still in a rape culture.

    Basically every culture on Earth can be pretty easily defined as a rape culture, which makes the term both loaded and more importantly not useful.

    It also encourages a tendency to ascribe everything to some type of larger moral failing on the part of society, and discourages from looking at larger, not specifically sexual psychological trends like the just-world phenomenon and fundamental attribution error. Society tends to be awful about a lot of terrible things in very similar ways, it's not unique to rape.

    I'm not saying there's not some very good arguments about misogyny and apathy towards reported rapes, especially on college campuses. I just feel that the language used by many advocates of this issue tend towards moral superiority rather than education.

    (also if this guy thinks that anyone learned something about rape from Titus Andronicus then he's clearly a loon.)

    Nope.

    citation needed

    Who needs the citation again?

    The person claiming every culture in the entire world is rape culture?
    Or the person calling that bullshit?


  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User
    edited March 2012
    Kistra wrote:
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Okay, then it's a bullshit term because it's trying to draw some kind of bizarre meta-narrative between a bunch of culturally unrelated things, like the warped sense of justice we have towards criminals vs. how we as a society feel about women. We shouldn't use it because it's inflammatory and meaningless.

    The song this thread is about was misogynist. It was targeted specifically at women. Both the professor in the OP and the people responding here have been talking about a misogynist culture. To say that this thread has been about some wider narrative that somehow incorporates all sorts of unrelated rapes seems disingenuous, at best. Realistically, this thread has been about how men on college campuses feel about women. Calling that a "rape culture" is just a cheap way to put people who disagree with you in the same sentence as violent criminals.

    Come on. I know you hate this stuff when the "other side" of issues you care about does it. When they associate their political opponents with nazis or associate women who get abortions with murderers. I see people on this forum speak out against those kinds of tactics daily. All that these meaningless phrases accomplish is to further entrench us in our viewpoints and make it easier to hate the other side.
    Rape culture isn't something that only people that disagree with it participate in. I participate in rape culture all the time. When I notice it or have someone point it out to me I generally try to change the way I act, but it is absolutely not something that only people that disagree with the term participate in.
    This right here is a thing that I agree with.


    Squidget0 wrote:
    You don't have to defend misogyny to think that "rape culture" is a terrible inflammatory term. It just is. It's obvious if you look at it from the perspective of anyone who's not already convinced on this issue.
    I started off thinking that rape culture wasn't a real thing and that the term was needlessly antagonistic. But I changed my mind, despite people continuing to refer to rape culture as rape culture. What does that say about your theory?

    Grid System on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    "Socialist administration" is inflammatory, but "misogynist culture" isn't?

    "Socialist" is comparable to "rape?"

    What the hell?

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    Squidget0 wrote:
    You don't have to defend misogyny to think that "rape culture" is a terrible inflammatory term. It just is. It's obvious if you look at it from the perspective of anyone who's not already convinced on this issue.
    I started off thinking that rape culture wasn't a real thing and that the term was needlessly antagonistic. But I changed my mind, despite people continuing to refer to rape culture as rape culture. What does that say about your theory?

    That people acquire and process information in different ways? I decided to buy a PS3 despite Sony having an annoying ad campaign. That doesn't mean they should produce more annoying ad campaigns, or that we shouldn't try to stamp out annoying ad campaigns where we find them.

    If you're secure on your position on rape in culture, you shouldn't need to use language that associates ordinary people with rapists. You should be able to find a way to express those ideas that isn't an inflammatory soundbite designed to demonize those who disagree.

    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
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