X-Men: Resisting Avengers Oppression For Five Decades

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  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Wow, because I find its completely obvious where Bendis is going with Uncanny. He's taking all of the past themes of the X-Men comics from when he (and many of us readers) was a kid and showing how these old themes interact with present day Marvel Comics. Its not that he's trying to tell Lord of the Rings, X-Men style. For example:

    The X-Men time travel due to a dark future to set things right (Age of Apocalypse, Days of Future Past).
    A Mutant Revolution led by a charismatic leader (Magneto's Brotherhood)
    The government is hunting mutants (almost any Sentinel story)
    The founder of the X-Men is dead, and its pushing people over the emotional breaking points. (X-Men #41/1968)
    A mutant with uncontrollable power is discovered (god knows how many issues)

    Everything Bendis is doing is exploring all of these old themes from a new angle. The dark future is present day Marvel, the Mutant Revolution is being led by a hero and is staying within the bounds of the law, the government were dupes and as upset about it as the X-men, Xavier's death is tearing them apart rather than galvanizing them, the uncontrollable mutant was not reached in time and dozens are already dead.

    Now, if you don't like this, that's fine, just like if you don't like Bendis' writing style, that's okay too. Personally, I love it because the stories he writes are NOT about the plot, but rather about the characters caught up in it. This latest issue was a traditional Bendis character issue where we get to see the mindsets of a large number of characters caught up in the story as we take a breath before the next issue.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    TexiKen
  • TexiKenTexiKen talk about a hole in one Registered User regular
    While I can see what you're saying when you write it out, and that is something interesting to read, that goal isn't what I'm getting in his two series right now. I see it more as the 90's X-Men stuff where they just keep piling on the same old stories. The sentinel stuff turned out to end with kind of a dud because it didn't want to truly make some good guys into bad guys or leave any distinct change. Operation Zero Tolerance at least moved Scott and Jean off the team for a bit and completely stripped the X-Men of any technology they had. Turmoil over Xavier's death doesn't feel consistent and is more a result of comics making death, and even grieving over it, completely meaningless.

    Now, in the beginning of Uncanny and ANXM, there seemed to be a direction that was taking those first two themes. But with Battle of the Atom it felt like a stalling pattern was put on it, particularly with the Original 5 jumping ship, and then one of them literally jumping ship off planet. The Mutant Revolution needs to happen or be explored more as a simple ploy by Scott to still lead, or to simply be a dick to Wolverine. If the sentinels weren't just a rather random X-men villain's scheme and actually a part of SHIELD, and they justified it, that would add something new to explore.

  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Uncanny #26 was so void of anything I want to give up on it, probably will after the next issue and just let the series build up some issues and play by ear. Still one more issue to go for this story!

    The only thing I can see having any legs is something that seems to be setting up for Axis related:
    Bobby is gonna go bad or try and kill Scott

    This has been Geoff Johns-Avengers level decompressed, to the point where I'm going to just avoid Bendis written stuff in the future because not only is it taking forever I don't get a feeling even Bendis knows where he's going with the X-Books now so it's stalling for another month. Soule, please write an X-book.

    I found it interesting that in the Rachel and Miles X-plain the X-Men episode with Greg Rucka, Rucka said he asked Bendis when he would need Cyclops back, and Bendis said something along the lines of "eventually" or "we can work it out later."

    It really does seem like he doesn't plot a whole lot ahead of time. If Siege is a good indication, the end of his run with the O5 will be pretty good when it eventually happens, but this is probably what the X-books are going to be like for another couple years, or at least until Hickman blows everything up.

  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    TexiKen wrote: »
    The Mutant Revolution needs to happen or be explored more as a simple ploy by Scott to still lead, or to simply be a dick to Wolverine.

    A lot of what you say I have no comment on, because I can totally see how you get here. The part I quoted, though, I do have a comment on. The Mutant Revolution is in full swing right now. The thing is, the revolution isn't a Black Panther style revolution with burning cars and what not. Bendis has modeled the Mutant Revolution after the more subtle revolutions we see these days. A good example is the Gay Marriage movement. It is, for all intents and purposes, a revolution as a minority is fighting for their basic rights using media and politics to get the message out and change the way that Americans think of the subject.

    That is the kind of Revolution that Scott is trying to run. He's trying to turn the general public to favor the mutant cause using viral media (when they "fought" the Avengers in Australia), the mass media (when he got the image of him with his arms crossed in the x form spread around the globe), and in the streets (when he visited the college rally that was showing mutants support before Dark Beast sent Nimrods to attack him).

    While I appreciate and like the route Bendis is taking with Scott's revolution, I can totally see how it would bore people looking for X-Men vs Giant Robots in their comics.

    AspectVoid on
    PSN|AspectVoid
  • SigmunSigmun Registered User regular
    I'm glad i'm not the only one who hates Beast.

    Whippy
  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    While I appreciate and like the route Bendis is taking with Scott's revolution, I can totally see how it would bore people looking for X-Men vs Giant Robots in their comics.

    The problem I have is that the revolution stopped when it became inconvenient. Sorry guys, we only had room to save like 5 mutants. We're done. Team's full. And the new characters are largely doing nothing.

    I am also very pessimistic about writers (in general) returning to plot points once they're removed from them. There's always another big event around the corner to add new plot points, so it becomes hard for writers to actually finish things they left undone from a previous story arc.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    tumblr_nciztn4o0O1rx5px6o1_500.jpg
    http://brianmichaelbendis.tumblr.com/post/98491432177/friday-bomb-drop-nobody-said-anything-about-a
    FRIDAY BOMB DROP!? nobody said anything about a friday bomb drop!!

    this is real. this is by Joe Quinones.

    coming soon!

    (that’s right tumblr, its a fate worse than death for colossus, i put him on a team with Adam x!! and it is all your fault!:) )

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Pretty suuure that's from the Anniversary special where there's a bunch of gag covers

    The X-Men kissing page is from it as well

    CYpGAPn.png
  • TexiKenTexiKen talk about a hole in one Registered User regular
    I'm done with Uncanny X-Men. Still one more issue, and it was nothing but a big old filler that just rehashes the same shit Bendis was playing at two issues ago. I'm just so mad at myself for not pulling the trigger sooner on this, with this and GOTG he's really showing he needs to just take a sabbatical or just write one complete book a month.


    I did see how Wolverine died in Death of Wolverine, which reminds me a lot of a Treehouse of Horror episode:
    he's covered in molten adamantium after stopping some doctor from Weapon X continue his experiment to make more Wolverines, but was able to walk all the way out to a helipad and watch the sunset, and his body will probably be super preserved and his healing factor was in hibernation or whatever so he's ready to go in two years or whenever the movies need him

  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    You don't get Bendis' writing, TexiKen, and that's fine, but to say nothing happened is complete and flat out wrong. The following happened:

    Scott and Ororo got onto the same page regarding the situation Xavier left them in
    Xavier's method of dealing with the new Supermutant were shown to be inadequate now.
    New Supermutant gained control of his powers and its no longer driving him crazy. He can protect himself without accidentally killing everyone in the state.
    Scott decides that Xavier's whole "You have to kill him" thing is stupid and makes a breakfast date with the new Supermutant instead.

    And it does all of this while drawing parallels to AvX and showing why, when dealing with someone who only has a very tenuous grip on a vast amount of power, its better to act like a reasonable adult and talk to them rather than going straight to sneak attacks, trickery, and threats.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I did see how Wolverine died in Death of Wolverine, which reminds me a lot of a Treehouse of Horror episode:
    he's covered in molten adamantium after stopping some doctor from Weapon X continue his experiment to make more Wolverines, but was able to walk all the way out to a helipad and watch the sunset, and his body will probably be super preserved and his healing factor was in hibernation or whatever so he's ready to go in two years or whenever the movies need him

    wow that's a super lame way to kill off Wolverine, I'm really glad now I didn't pick up that mini-series

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    I don't think it was lame at all, I think it's pretty hardcore actually.

  • descdesc the '87 stick up kids Registered User regular
    I just got caught up on x-men Xavier's will issues and I know it's like comic book writing and x-men = melodrama and all

    But the whole time I'm thinking,
    "So the Phoenix enters Jean back in the day and she goes nuts and blows up a planet and it's forgivable, but Scott gets Phoenixed and kills Xavier and it's grounds for wishing death upon him."

    Reynolds
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    desc wrote: »
    I just got caught up on x-men Xavier's will issues and I know it's like comic book writing and x-men = melodrama and all

    But the whole time I'm thinking,
    "So the Phoenix enters Jean back in the day and she goes nuts and blows up a planet and it's forgivable, but Scott gets Phoenixed and kills Xavier and it's grounds for wishing death upon him."

    Well, yeah, you see Xavier is the only one who matters. Wolverine flat out told Scott that.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    desc wrote: »
    I just got caught up on x-men Xavier's will issues and I know it's like comic book writing and x-men = melodrama and all

    But the whole time I'm thinking,
    "So the Phoenix enters Jean back in the day and she goes nuts and blows up a planet and it's forgivable, but Scott gets Phoenixed and kills Xavier and it's grounds for wishing death upon him."
    The Phoenix that died was a copy of Jean, not actually Jean. The Phoenix-Jean only went nuts after being driven temporarily insane by Mastermind. The Phoenix-Jean also didn't blow up a planet, it ate a star and didn't notice there was a planet in orbit around it that was obliterated when the star went supernova. When the Phoenix-Jean found out about what it did, it was horrified and ended up killing itself out of remorse. When Jean came back, there was nothing to forgive, because the Phoenix-Jean was not Jean.

    Scott, on the other hand, was not driven insane. He lashed out in anger at the people trying to get him to give up the Phoenix. He intentionally targeted and killed Xavier, and everyone saw him do it. Since then, he has not displayed any remorse that I've seen, instead blaming it all on the Phoenix.

    Now, we've seen multiple Phoenix-hosts over the years. Rachel, and Jean, and future-Quentin. Outside of the Dark Phoenix Saga, not a one of them has gone nuts and murdered a person.

    Would Scott have killed Professor X without the Phoenix' influence? I don't think so. Did he do it because of the Phoenix? I don't think that's true either. In that moment, Scott wanted to kill Xavier, and he did kill Xavier, and until he actually asks for forgiveness I don't think it's unreasonable for people not to forgive him.

    iguanacusSinogueLangly
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    steam_sig.png
  • ReynoldsReynolds Raving Rabbit Registered User regular
    http://comicnewbies.com/2014/03/13/cyclops-and-wolverine-having-beers/

    Also, Phoenix-Colossus was ready to hurt or kill Kitty, even during a much calmer situation. All of the examples of people who used the Phoenix without going nuts were high level telepaths, most of whom are specified as good hosts for the Phoenix. All of the five except for Emma were just about the worst possible choices for hosts. And even Emma has said she never actually had the raw 'omega level' power to be a good host.

    There have been many other characters that do similarly bad things, blame it on some outside force, and get more or less totally forgiven. Scarlet Witch is the big one. Let's not even get started on characters like Hulk or Wolverine himself. Magneto, who has straight up murdered TONS of people, has been a teacher and ally to the X-Men. He is currently on the same team as Dazzler and Kitty.

    There's no actual reason people should be this mad at Cyclops. It's just because the writers/editors want it to be like this.

    OGueI9Q.gif
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    vagrant_windsReynoldsTexiKen
  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    Reynolds
  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    All-New X-Men 34 and 35 were both supposed to ship this month, but both have been delayed to December. Anyone know what the reason for the delay is?

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    He was killing at a Mark Millar rate! so, ya, LOTS.

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    The difference being that Wolverine was brainwashed specifically in order to make him kill SHIELD agents. The Phoenix did not override Scott's own wants and desires in order to make him try to remake the world and kill Xavier.

    Spoit
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    The difference being that Wolverine was brainwashed specifically in order to make him kill SHIELD agents. The Phoenix did not override Scott's own wants and desires in order to make him try to remake the world and kill Xavier.

    Except it did, because that is the new canon for the Phoenix. When you go Dark, its no longer you in control. You may not like the change, but that's how it is.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    GethZavianReynolds
  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    The difference being that Wolverine was brainwashed specifically in order to make him kill SHIELD agents. The Phoenix did not override Scott's own wants and desires in order to make him try to remake the world and kill Xavier.

    yea I see your point, although Wolverine out of all people realizes the phoenix force turns people evil

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    There's a huge difference between "I hate myself and want to die" and admitting that he was wrong and asking forgiveness. That's the whole thing with Cyclops is that he'll beat himself up about his mistakes forever, but he cannot actually admit he was wrong to anyone else.

    Look at what he says to Wolverine when he tried to goad him into killing him. "I did what I had to." "I've done everything I can do. I die now, I'm a martyr."

    He even tries to weasel out of it in that weird confrontation with Kitty. "Don't you think that if I thought for a second, a millisecond, that I killed Charles Xavier by my own hand... Even by accident... By my own will. If it was me and not me controlled by a power greater than anything else on this planet... That I would kill myself."

    He keeps insisting both that he didn't actually kill Xavier but also that he is responsible for Xavier being dead, but also that he was completely right to do what he did and he'd do it all again if he had to.

    I think he knows deep inside himself that the Phoenix didn't make him kill Xavier. The Phoenix doesn't make anybody do anything. He was angry at Xavier and he lashed out and he needs to admit that to himself and everyone else before he can really be forgiven.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Zavian wrote: »
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Yeah, it doesn't feel like he's particularly sorry about it

    You mean out side of how he willingly went to jail for it until he found that Captain America's plan for dealing with mutants was to toss them into a privately run jail where they would be murdered by bigots with the approval of the jail's warden?

    Or how he attempted to commit suicide by cop by goading Wolverine into killing him.

    Or the time he and Kitty had a long talk and he explained how no one hates him more than he hates himself.

    Or the time he and Magneto had a talk, and Magneto told Scott to man up and stop expecting Magneto to be the one to punish him

    So forth, and so on. Scott is repeatedly shown to regret that he killed Xavier. He just isn't going to sit around and rot in jail while Mutants are being persecuted and no one else is protecting them.

    As for Scott being nuts because of the Phoenix Force, yes, he was. Every Phoenix Force user has had control problems. Jean has the whole Dark Phoenix thing for a reason. Rachel was draining all potential life from the universe until the Phoenix itself limited what she could access. Emma was invading peoples minds all over the world and killing those bigoted against mutants. Colossus was giving whales legs, for some reason.

    And Scott, after having someone he considered a friend try to murder his granddaughter, the Avengers invade his home injuring his students and kidnapping his granddaughter, Xavier telling him that he was going to turn off his brain, and being attacked by every Avenger there was, killed Xavier.

    Yeah I never really got the whole "Scott Summers is super evil!", I mean when Wolverine was brainwashed didn't he kill a bunch of SHIELD agents?

    The difference being that Wolverine was brainwashed specifically in order to make him kill SHIELD agents. The Phoenix did not override Scott's own wants and desires in order to make him try to remake the world and kill Xavier.

    Except it did, because that is the new canon for the Phoenix. When you go Dark, its no longer you in control. You may not like the change, but that's how it is.

    I don't buy that. I don't think there's been anything explicitly shown that hosting the Phoenix is anything like being controlled by another will. The way I see it, it's a "power corrupts" thing where people are doing stuff they wouldn't do if they didn't have Phoenix power, but the Phoenix isn't making them do it. Just like alcohol doesn't make a person do anything they don't want to do either.

  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    The Phoenix doesn't make anybody do anything.

    2506536-whale_legs.png

    I agree that the Phoenix Force is like a drug, but a drug can make you kill someone as well (or make you give whales crab legs)

    Zavian on
  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    The Phoenix doesn't make anybody do anything.

    2506536-whale_legs.png

    I agree that the Phoenix Force is like a drug, but a drug can make you kill someone as well (or make you give whales crab legs)

    Seems like it gives people an overwhelming urge to create, as well as to destroy. Tear down what exists and bring about something new in its place. Let that go out of control and yeah, you get a huge utopian wonderland (awesome), scorpion-whales (possibly awesome, possibly horrible), or the murder of your mentor so you can take his place.

    H9f4bVe.png
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    The Phoenix doesn't make anybody do anything.

    I agree that the Phoenix Force is like a drug, but a drug can make you kill someone as well (or make you give whales crab legs)

    I don't think that I would describe a drug as "making" someone kill someone. The drug does not have a will of its own. People who get drunk and murder a person still have to go to prison.

  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    Zavian wrote: »
    The Phoenix doesn't make anybody do anything.

    I agree that the Phoenix Force is like a drug, but a drug can make you kill someone as well (or make you give whales crab legs)

    I don't think that I would describe a drug as "making" someone kill someone. The drug does not have a will of its own. People who get drunk and murder a person still have to go to prison.

    I think it's established canon that the Phoenix Force makes you kill people/galaxies, that's like it's main purpose, "The Judgment of the Phoenix". Sort of like being possessed by Galactus. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you're gonna go crazy and kill people
    2185626-picture_4.png

    Zavian on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    That's from a What If story, it's not really canon.

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    The reason people dislike Scott is because he will never do anything that is humbling or contrite.

    Like, if you have ever interacted with anyone socially it is pretty easy to see why people would think Scott is a huge prick. It takes more than saying you hate yourself or whatever. You need to be contrite, you need to recognize your responsibility, you need to lay yourself before those you wronged and ask forgiveness and acknowledge your faults.

    Scott refuses to do this. It's why his character is particularly compelling. I like the way Scott is written but he is in no way "making up" for his mistakes with the Phoenix or the death of Xavier. He thinks he is, but by any sort of cultural standard, he isn't. He's acting like a king would act, where they can not deign to stoop to how a normal person might act in any given scenario. He's acting like Namor. Namor might, internally, feel regret or know that he's wrong about something, but he's also a king, and kings do not kneel for mercy. They take action, they lead, they move forward. That's what is so fascinating about how Scott has reacted to all of this.

    Like, the closest he gets is his scene with Wolverine, where he gets drunk. Because it humanizes him, because it brings him down onto a normal dude like wolverine's level. But that moment was still fleeting.

    Langly on
    GaslightCentipede DamascusSpoit
  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Exactly. Scott Summers has long been a king of mutants in all but title.

    // Steam: VWinds // LoL: VWinds // PSN: vagrant_winds //
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  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    edited November 2014
    I actually like what they've been doing with Scott. He was pretty dull during the 90s, in my opinion he only started getting interesting (read: flawed like the best Marvel characters) when Grant Morrison made him have an affair with Emma Frost, which snowballed into his current status quo. Age of Apocalypse Scott was pretty interesting, but that was an alt universe version so doesn't really count

    Zavian on
    Golden Yakvagrant_windsLangly
  • TexiKenTexiKen talk about a hole in one Registered User regular
    Oh wow, it's been a year, this thread was underground deeper than the Morlocks, m i rite gang?

    Uncanny #600 was really bad, and the physical embodiment of a writer who just didn't care anymore. Yeah, whatever, these toys aren't cool anymore, something something open ended ending that seems to have already been ignored. To center the main story around Beast being on trial, and to really have nothing happen because of it, but just to anchor side stories around, it's bad idea. And then Cyclops does something that seems to be Bendis basically throwing his hands up and going "whatever, I'm out." It's just a rather bombastic attempt to grab you by the feels that was never really built up to anything to begin with so it's super hollow in execution. It seems like Bendis even got tired of his pet character Eva, which he normally doesn't do with his other new character creations. And there isn't even an attempt to connect Hickman's Cyclops to Bendis', or Axis Havok for that matter.

    The big story reveal that was spoiled yesterday was that Iceman is now gay, but it comes across terribly and kind of makes Jean even more unlikable. It never comes across as helping someone discover themselves, but characters who shouldn't have been reading other people's minds to begin with basically telling someone "no, this is who you are, why aren't you like this?" It's compounded more by the idea that because Bobby is joking around all the time, and couldn't settle down in a relationship (which is what, 80% of comic characters?) this somehow is evidence to him being gay, which makes the whole thing seems poorly thought out and the real trouble with doing a permanent change to a character who is 50 years old (because this is one of those things that can't really be walked back, as opposed to breaking a beloved couple up, etc etc).


    Extraordinary X-Men #1 was good, this whole terrigan mist hurting mutants thing seems to ignore the idea that this is something the X-Men have dealt with before rather recently (both with Decimation and Utopia), but the teasing of what happened to Scott (and what he did) is too much after so many delays with Marvel that you just want it to be over. I do hope Lemire dials back Jean's Poochieness by a million but it doesn't seem like that will happen, and there seems to be some new enemies briefly shown with Nightcrawler but I don't know. Ramos' art is really nice as always, although his Magik looks like a mix between Emma and his old Lady Mastermind from Carey's run. But it's still a very pretty book to look at.

    I do have a theory about Cyclops:
    Uncanny #600 showed Jean and Hank getting together, with Cyclops seeing them kissing (cue bad omen), and maybe that makes young Cyclops turn "evil" quicker and change Cyclops in the present because oh yeah, this is still supposed to have time travel ramifications, I don't know if they're going to keep with Hickman's Cyclops or what.

    I just think with how EX#1 kept dropping Cyclops and Scott, they're referring to the younger one. Maybe this will be elaborated on in the road trip X-Men book or they've just decided to make Cyclops full on evil now because he's too perfect.

  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Oh wow, it's been a year, this thread was underground deeper than the Morlocks, m i rite gang?

    Uncanny #600 was really bad, and the physical embodiment of a writer who just didn't care anymore. Yeah, whatever, these toys aren't cool anymore, something something open ended ending that seems to have already been ignored. To center the main story around Beast being on trial, and to really have nothing happen because of it, but just to anchor side stories around, it's bad idea. And then Cyclops does something that seems to be Bendis basically throwing his hands up and going "whatever, I'm out." It's just a rather bombastic attempt to grab you by the feels that was never really built up to anything to begin with so it's super hollow in execution. It seems like Bendis even got tired of his pet character Eva, which he normally doesn't do with his other new character creations. And there isn't even an attempt to connect Hickman's Cyclops to Bendis', or Axis Havok for that matter.

    The big story reveal that was spoiled yesterday was that Iceman is now gay, but it comes across terribly and kind of makes Jean even more unlikable. It never comes across as helping someone discover themselves, but characters who shouldn't have been reading other people's minds to begin with basically telling someone "no, this is who you are, why aren't you like this?" It's compounded more by the idea that because Bobby is joking around all the time, and couldn't settle down in a relationship (which is what, 80% of comic characters?) this somehow is evidence to him being gay, which makes the whole thing seems poorly thought out and the real trouble with doing a permanent change to a character who is 50 years old (because this is one of those things that can't really be walked back, as opposed to breaking a beloved couple up, etc etc).


    Extraordinary X-Men #1 was good, this whole terrigan mist hurting mutants thing seems to ignore the idea that this is something the X-Men have dealt with before rather recently (both with Decimation and Utopia), but the teasing of what happened to Scott (and what he did) is too much after so many delays with Marvel that you just want it to be over. I do hope Lemire dials back Jean's Poochieness by a million but it doesn't seem like that will happen, and there seems to be some new enemies briefly shown with Nightcrawler but I don't know. Ramos' art is really nice as always, although his Magik looks like a mix between Emma and his old Lady Mastermind from Carey's run. But it's still a very pretty book to look at.

    I do have a theory about Cyclops:
    Uncanny #600 showed Jean and Hank getting together, with Cyclops seeing them kissing (cue bad omen), and maybe that makes young Cyclops turn "evil" quicker and change Cyclops in the present because oh yeah, this is still supposed to have time travel ramifications, I don't know if they're going to keep with Hickman's Cyclops or what.

    I just think with how EX#1 kept dropping Cyclops and Scott, they're referring to the younger one. Maybe this will be elaborated on in the road trip X-Men book or they've just decided to make Cyclops full on evil now because he's too perfect.

    I really liked the Hickman "ending" for older Cyclops, was the perfect end cap to his recent history
    i.e. he tried one last time to use the Phoenix force and Doom finally put him down like the rabid dog he had become

    Spoit
  • TexiKenTexiKen talk about a hole in one Registered User regular
    but dogs are awesome!

    ReynoldsGonmun
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I'm not somebody who really develops an attachment to particular comic characters and in general I'm happy to let writers tell the story they want

    but man marvel, if that really was the end of scott summers the elder, we're gonna have a problem

    NREqxl5.jpg
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Langly wrote: »
    The reason people dislike Scott is because he will never do anything that is humbling or contrite.

    Like, if you have ever interacted with anyone socially it is pretty easy to see why people would think Scott is a huge prick. It takes more than saying you hate yourself or whatever. You need to be contrite, you need to recognize your responsibility, you need to lay yourself before those you wronged and ask forgiveness and acknowledge your faults.

    Scott refuses to do this. It's why his character is particularly compelling. I like the way Scott is written but he is in no way "making up" for his mistakes with the Phoenix or the death of Xavier. He thinks he is, but by any sort of cultural standard, he isn't. He's acting like a king would act, where they can not deign to stoop to how a normal person might act in any given scenario. He's acting like Namor. Namor might, internally, feel regret or know that he's wrong about something, but he's also a king, and kings do not kneel for mercy. They take action, they lead, they move forward. That's what is so fascinating about how Scott has reacted to all of this.

    Like, the closest he gets is his scene with Wolverine, where he gets drunk. Because it humanizes him, because it brings him down onto a normal dude like wolverine's level. But that moment was still fleeting.

    avx: consequences comes close for a minute there

    also he does the humbling/contrite stuff for emma (which is why they were great ughhhh fuck you bendis)

    NREqxl5.jpg
    vagrant_winds
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