X-Men: Resisting Avengers Oppression For Five Decades

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  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Breaking up Scott and Emma is probably one of the worst things Bendis has ever done in writing comics.

    And that includes Jean using her mental powers to make Iceman suddenly gay through mind control. (I know this is not what he intended it to be, but this is exactly what it looks like is happening in the comics.)

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Zavian wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Oh wow, it's been a year, this thread was underground deeper than the Morlocks, m i rite gang?

    Uncanny #600 was really bad, and the physical embodiment of a writer who just didn't care anymore. Yeah, whatever, these toys aren't cool anymore, something something open ended ending that seems to have already been ignored. To center the main story around Beast being on trial, and to really have nothing happen because of it, but just to anchor side stories around, it's bad idea. And then Cyclops does something that seems to be Bendis basically throwing his hands up and going "whatever, I'm out." It's just a rather bombastic attempt to grab you by the feels that was never really built up to anything to begin with so it's super hollow in execution. It seems like Bendis even got tired of his pet character Eva, which he normally doesn't do with his other new character creations. And there isn't even an attempt to connect Hickman's Cyclops to Bendis', or Axis Havok for that matter.

    The big story reveal that was spoiled yesterday was that Iceman is now gay, but it comes across terribly and kind of makes Jean even more unlikable. It never comes across as helping someone discover themselves, but characters who shouldn't have been reading other people's minds to begin with basically telling someone "no, this is who you are, why aren't you like this?" It's compounded more by the idea that because Bobby is joking around all the time, and couldn't settle down in a relationship (which is what, 80% of comic characters?) this somehow is evidence to him being gay, which makes the whole thing seems poorly thought out and the real trouble with doing a permanent change to a character who is 50 years old (because this is one of those things that can't really be walked back, as opposed to breaking a beloved couple up, etc etc).


    Extraordinary X-Men #1 was good, this whole terrigan mist hurting mutants thing seems to ignore the idea that this is something the X-Men have dealt with before rather recently (both with Decimation and Utopia), but the teasing of what happened to Scott (and what he did) is too much after so many delays with Marvel that you just want it to be over. I do hope Lemire dials back Jean's Poochieness by a million but it doesn't seem like that will happen, and there seems to be some new enemies briefly shown with Nightcrawler but I don't know. Ramos' art is really nice as always, although his Magik looks like a mix between Emma and his old Lady Mastermind from Carey's run. But it's still a very pretty book to look at.

    I do have a theory about Cyclops:
    Uncanny #600 showed Jean and Hank getting together, with Cyclops seeing them kissing (cue bad omen), and maybe that makes young Cyclops turn "evil" quicker and change Cyclops in the present because oh yeah, this is still supposed to have time travel ramifications, I don't know if they're going to keep with Hickman's Cyclops or what.

    I just think with how EX#1 kept dropping Cyclops and Scott, they're referring to the younger one. Maybe this will be elaborated on in the road trip X-Men book or they've just decided to make Cyclops full on evil now because he's too perfect.

    I really liked the Hickman "ending" for older Cyclops, was the perfect end cap to his recent history
    i.e. he tried one last time to use the Phoenix force and Doom finally put him down like the rabid dog he had become

    You know
    there is no chance that Cyclops doesn't come back and slam doom right?

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    So, I havent read x-men in... ages, maybe more than a decade. whats a good arc to get back into? I think the last I read was Onslaught, and I wasnt even following previous arcs by then. And I didnt like that story, the "X-men meet enemy that is gust bigger than the previous one" type of deal is not my cup of tea, but reading into the thread I see Scott leading a revolution, like a political leader, factions of X-men oposed, I like all that, but where to start ?

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Start with Grant Morrison's stellar run on New X-Men, then maybe the 24 issues of Astonishing X-Men by Whedon and Cassaday. Those are great runs that really nail the heart of the characters. Try and stay unspoiled, because they have some amazing reveals. That's well before the split between X-Men factions, though.

    The stuff about Cyclops and Wolverine leading two factions of X-Men reaches a head in the Schism mini-series, then carries over into Kieron Gillen's Uncanny X-Men and Jason Aaron's excellent Wolverine And The X-Men, and then kind of drags itself until right about now in the two Bendis books that started great and then just weren't.

    Rick Remender's run on X-Force is also great.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Would the first arc be "e is for extintion" ?

    Bogart
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Yeah, that's where Morrison's run starts, and it's a fantastic story in its own right as well. When Morrison's run ended Marvel kinda panicked and immediately walked back a couple of his big changes in pretty stupid ways, and the mood he had in the run of optimism, expansion and evolution was scotched pretty quickly with House of M, but I think it's the high point of the X-Men canon (after the best years of Claremont).

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  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    I really loved Morrison's and Whedon's stuff pre-Schism and Gillen's (Cyclops) and Aaron's (Wolverine) stuff post-Schism.
    And Remender's Uncanny X-Force.

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  • Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    The X-Men are a lot like Spider-Man in that their worst villains are the ones they can't punch - the fear and discrimination they face as mutants. And, all the soap-opera superpowered hormone-driven drama aside, it's probably the most enduring and interesting aspect to the comics, even after all these decades. But ever since Claremont era, I think the X-Men really tend to...feed on themselveves. Aside from team-slut Wolverine, the books tend to get incestuous in turning inwards towards their own plots (in general; they still come out of the shell a little bit for most of the big crossover events), and everybody generally ships with someone else in the same milieu like this was Buffy the Vampire Slayer crossed with Hetalia. It's sort of weird when you realize that when the X-Men aren't policing fellow mutants, dealing with some internal team split or self-caused disaster, they're dealing with existential threats that pretty much only exist or interact with them because they're mutants.

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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    In my ideal world the X-Men are in a separate universe where they're the only superheroes/metahumans.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    In my ideal world the X-Men are in a separate universe where they're the only superheroes/metahumans.

    I was just reading the New X-men arc that was recomended a few posts above. And in the number #128, there is a guy with a RanXerox jacket. I am in awe, in a very good way.

  • Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    I dunno. Spider-Man kicking the shit out of random X-Men never gets old.

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  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    I dunno. Spider-Man kicking the shit out of random X-Men never gets old.

    or, you know, The Wasp...

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    Zavian on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    xavier is so disappointed in them

    I agree that marvel kinda need to figure out a good narrative arc for the x-men; the avengers actually fit sort of neatly into a world of modern conflicts, since most of their villains are basically terrorists anyway. As neat as House of M was, it felt like once its aftermath/fallout had been dealt with the franchise became sort of directionless (and then AvX happened.)

    I would have really liked utopia (or possible future mutant enclave/nation/etc) to turn into an israel allegory, but maybe nobody else thinks that would be cool

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Yeah, that's where Morrison's run starts, and it's a fantastic story in its own right as well. When Morrison's run ended Marvel kinda panicked and immediately walked back a couple of his big changes in pretty stupid ways, and the mood he had in the run of optimism, expansion and evolution was scotched pretty quickly with House of M, but I think it's the high point of the X-Men canon (after the best years of Claremont).

    Im about to finish that Arc, from 114, to 156. Just a couple of issues left... it has been a RIDE, and things are sorf of wrapping up. Also, my new favorite character/s are probably the Stepford Cuckoos. I really apreciate your recomendation, it was a great story to get back into.

    Bogart
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    The quality of that particular book went off a cliff right after Morrison left. Claremont came back to Uncanny X-Men and did OK with some great art from Alan Davis, but Chuck Austen had a famously bad run on the book Morrison left and Marvel seemed to get scared and back the hell off from a lot of Morrison's ideas.

    Whedon's excellent 24 issues of Astonishing are probably the best book that came immediately after Morrison's run.

    Gonmun
  • TexiKenTexiKen talk about a hole in one Registered User regular
    After Whedon I would say check out Mike Carey's run, it consistently good and the second or third longest writer run in X-History.

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Yeah, Carey did some excellent work on the book, writing a couple of pretty good crossovers as well. Less flashy than most, but did excellent character work and handled teams very well, something a lot of X-Men writers never seemed to manage.

    The Brubaker and Fraction runs later are OK but hugely underwhelming when you consider the absolutely stellar work they were turning in elsewhere.

  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    In other news, Wolverine and Angel make a cute couple.
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    Everyone likes /headpats.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Im reading Astonishing X-men now, the comedic writting took a hard dive into an empty pool. Going from Emma Frost and her self aware classism, to the forced randomness of the morphing guy is killing this story for me.

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Breaking up Scott and Emma is probably one of the worst things Bendis has ever done in writing comics.

    And that includes Jean using her mental powers to make Iceman suddenly gay through mind control. (I know this is not what he intended it to be, but this is exactly what it looks like is happening in the comics.)

    I saw something about this today, is that some weird time travel / alt universe x-men shenanigans? They look like they're 15 years old. The panels I saw made it looks weirdly awkward, like he didn't know but she did or some such. Hearing that it's Bendis tho, that explains the shitty method at least.

    Nosf on
  • Merlin the TunaMerlin the Tuna Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Merlin the Tuna on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    in the moment was kinda cool, because seeing the traditional 'future dystopia' story told from the opposite perspective is kinda neat (the battle of the atom bit was fun too)

    in the long run though I kinda don't see what the point of it was, unless the long run plan was/is to kill off the older characters and have a quasi-franchise reboot (especially when the uncanny book was just introducing a cast of new/young x-men)

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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Jean did NOT fiddle with adult Iceman's brain; adult Iceman just decided to admit it. Where are you getting the idea she MADE him gay?

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Jean did NOT fiddle with adult Iceman's brain; adult Iceman just decided to admit it. Where are you getting the idea she MADE him gay?

    As a couple people in the thread have mentioned, while it's supposed to be that Jean just allowed him to admit that he's gay, the way it actually comes off in the comic is that she fiddled around in his mind and made him gay.

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  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Jean did NOT fiddle with adult Iceman's brain; adult Iceman just decided to admit it. Where are you getting the idea she MADE him gay?

    As a couple people in the thread have mentioned, while it's supposed to be that Jean just allowed him to admit that he's gay, the way it actually comes off in the comic is that she fiddled around in his mind and made him gay.

    It's exactly what it looks like on both occasions.

    And it's not like Jean hasn't mindfucked her own teammates before. She fucked with Angel's mind/personality when he wanted to go back to their origional timeline and she didn't. She went into his mind and promotly rewrote that and changed things around.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    eh

    I think that reading of #600 is mostly coming from people who want to read the worst possible outcome into it (which I mean, it's terrible so fair enough.) It came across much more to me that she's just doing the usual 'be super intrusive' thing than anything

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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Jean did NOT fiddle with adult Iceman's brain; adult Iceman just decided to admit it. Where are you getting the idea she MADE him gay?

    As a couple people in the thread have mentioned, while it's supposed to be that Jean just allowed him to admit that he's gay, the way it actually comes off in the comic is that she fiddled around in his mind and made him gay.

    This is the most bizarre interpretation of these scenes I've ever heard. No, there's nothing in the comic that suggests this. Why people are choosing to project that view, I have no idea. Why would you suddenly suppose that Jean - for the first time ever - has decided to fundamentally alter the personality of a grown adult for no reason whatsoever?

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited November 2015
    in the moment was kinda cool, because seeing the traditional 'future dystopia' story told from the opposite perspective is kinda neat (the battle of the atom bit was fun too)

    in the long run though I kinda don't see what the point of it was, unless the long run plan was/is to kill off the older characters and have a quasi-franchise reboot (especially when the uncanny book was just introducing a cast of new/young x-men)

    This happens so often with Bendis. He either writes like Steven King, doing cool stuff and hoping it comes together by the end, or his comics get hit harder by editorial mandates than anybody else. Maybe a bit of both? Although I felt he handled Ultimate Spider-man's final arcs pretty well.

    nightmarenny on
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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    I remember LoSH trying to do the "Hey wow, look it's the original young cast!" thing years ago, and the ensuing who are the real legionnaires questions but it didn't really work out great, although at the time it was pretty novel. Poor LoSH, they constantly got screwed by DC's reboots.

  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Beast traveled back in time and brought the original X-Men into the present, hoping they could convince Scott to see reason. (Where "see reason" means "stop getting randomly attacked by sentinels" I guess.) It was a fun play on the X-Men's visiting-a-dystopian-future shtick, but after a strong start it pretty much totally fizzled out. Ultimately the originals decided to stick around in the present and do their best to make the world a better place. Also the timestream got fundamentally broken somehow, meaning they couldn't go home even if they wanted to. This may or may not still be true, as Secret Wars has fundamentally broken the timestream both in-story and IRL.

    RE: Iceman, young Iceman came out as gay, regular Iceman said "wait what", and Jean fiddled with regular Iceman's brain to make him gay.

    Jean did NOT fiddle with adult Iceman's brain; adult Iceman just decided to admit it. Where are you getting the idea she MADE him gay?

    As a couple people in the thread have mentioned, while it's supposed to be that Jean just allowed him to admit that he's gay, the way it actually comes off in the comic is that she fiddled around in his mind and made him gay.

    I read that arc very recently, and the #600 issue, and I really didnt get that impression, there are usually visual cues, and diferent speech bubbles and such when there is some manipulation going on, and I dont recall any of it. Even old/present iceman comes clean saying he didnt act on his feelings because he had his plate full with being an x-man, but there is no revelation of an outside force repressing him, or manipulating his feelings (in an x-power sort of way at least). He even admits he always had the hots for Angel, if there was such a deep mental manipulation of both past and present iceman, it should have been at least hinted, but it wasnt.

  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Im hating Marvel so much right now, every fucking story has a "Continues in (irrelevant and stupid character) #whatever" . even the side stories have side stories that you need to get the whole full story. And its not like the footnotes of old times, where they would just tell you where that character was previously mentioned, or when they hint at a different story and you get a footnote with where you can find that story. They are effectively chopping bits out of the main plot, and scattering amongst the titles that I really dont care about.

  • UltimateInfernoUltimateInferno Registered User regular
    Any examples? Don't think I've seen saying continued in another book, just stuff referenced in a team book for a character hat has already happened/going on in the characters main book

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Any examples? Don't think I've seen saying continued in another book, just stuff referenced in a team book for a character hat has already happened/going on in the characters main book

    at the time I posted that, I was readin one of the x-23 stories, that required Daken #8 and #9, and during the eras that were recomended to me earlier in this thread, I saw a bunch of those two, but I didnt take the time to index them (or to look at the availability of the side stories). But in the x-23, they literally cut off the main fight and conclusion of the story. In one number they were about to fight a bunch of lab-mutant aberrations, in the next issue, she is in Paris chilling with Gambit again.

  • lunchbox12682lunchbox12682 MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    I'm reading through Axis right now on Unlimited and it is so ridiculous. Nothing really flows well. Just trying to read the one or two main stories barely makes sense.

    Feloniousmoz
  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    I'm reading through Axis right now on Unlimited and it is so ridiculous. Nothing really flows well. Just trying to read the one or two main stories barely makes sense.

    The only really good things about Axis were the Magneto tie ins and the Carnage stuff.

    It's also the only time in the character's entire existence that Carnage was good.

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  • Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    I dunno. The one time I liked Sentry was when he flew up into space and ripped Carnage in half. And if he made me like the Sentry even a little, that has to be the high point of Carnage's existence.

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  • lunchbox12682lunchbox12682 MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    Ok at least it's not just me.
    Maybe I'll go reread Annilation.

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