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I've been emailed a notice of copyright infringement

MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
edited March 2012 in Help / Advice Forum
Just checked my email inbox, and I have this, specifically from my ISP:
Dear Charter Internet Subscriber:

Charter Communications ("Charter") has been notified by a copyright owner, or its authorized agent, that your Internet account may have been involved in the exchange of unauthorized copies of copyrighted material (e.g., music, movies, or software). We are enclosing a copy of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) notice that Charter received from the copyright holder which includes the specific allegation.

Under the DMCA, copyright owners have the right to notify Charter’s register agent if they believe that a Charter customer has infringed on their work(s). When Charter receives a complaint notice from a copyright owner, Charter will notify the identifiable customer of the alleged infringement by providing them a copy of the submitted DMCA notice. As required by law, Charter may determine that the customer is a repeat copyright infringer and reserves the right to suspend or terminate the accounts of repeat copyright infringers.

It is possible that this activity has occurred without your permission or knowledge by an unauthorized user, a minor who may not fully understand the copyright laws, or even as a result of a computer virus. However, as the named subscriber on the account, you may be held responsible for any misuse of your account. Please be aware that using Charter’s service to engage in any form of copyright infringement is expressly prohibited by Charter's Acceptable Use Policy and that repeat copyright infringement, or violations of any other Charter policy, may result in the suspension or termination of your service. You may view Charter's rules and policies, including Charter’s Acceptable Use Policy, under the policies section of charter.com.

We ask that you take immediate action to stop the exchange of any infringing material. For additional information regarding copyright infringement and for a list of frequently asked questions, please visit charter.com/dmca.

If you have questions about this letter, you may contact us at 1-866-229-7286. Representatives will be available to take your call Monday through Friday 8am - 8pm, Saturday and Sunday 8am - 5pm (CST).


Sincerely,


Charter Communications Security Resolution Team
http://www.charter.com/security


--- The following material was provided to us as evidence ---



BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE
Hash: SHA1

***NOTE TO ISP: PLEASE FORWARD THE ENTIRE NOTICE***
March 20, 2012
Re: Notice of Unauthorized Use of Registered Copyrights Owned by Paradox Pictures
Case #: <redacted>

Dear Sir or Madam:

This notice is intended solely for the primary Charter Communications internet service account holder. Someone using this account has engaged in the illegal copying and/or distribution of pornographic movies. This notice may contain the titles of those movies, and therefore may contain text that is offensive to some readers.

Copyright Enforcement Group, LLC, ("We") represent Paradox Pictures. Paradox Pictures owns all right, title and interest to the registered copyrights listed below.

Evidence:
Infringement Title: OMG... It's The Flashdance XXX Parody
Infringement File Name: OMG.Its.The.Flashdance.XXX.Parody
Infringement Hash: ef702039504a7bb9570014370964fe4871566550
Infringement File Size: 1462718464 bytes
Infringement Protocol: BitTorrent
Infringement Timestamp: 2012-03-20 00:45:12 North American Eastern Time
Infringers IP Address: <should probably block this out>
Infringers Port: <this too>

The following files were included in the download:
File 1: OMG.Its.The.Flashdance.XXX.Parody/starlets-flashdancexxx-cd1.avi
File 2: OMG.Its.The.Flashdance.XXX.Parody/starlets-flashdancexxx-cd2.avi


You are hereby notified that your unauthorized copying and/or distribution infringes the registered copyrights of Paradox Pictures under the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. 106. In this regard, demand is hereby made that you and all persons using this account immediately and permanently cease and desist the unauthorized copying and/or distribution of the registered copyrights listed in this notice or otherwise owned by Paradox Pictures.

You may also be held liable for monetary damages, including attorney's fees and court costs if a lawsuit is commenced against you. You have until Thursday, April 19, 2012 to access the settlement offer and settle online. To access the settlement offer please visit http://www.copyrightsettlements.com/ and enter Case #: P12064680 and Password: xpnsm. To access the settlement offer directly please visit https://www.copyrightsettlements.com/?u=P12064680&p=xpnsm.

Settlement Information:
<there's a link, and a password, and a 'settlement case' number here>


If you fail to respond or settle within the prescribed time period, the claim(s) will be referred to our attorneys for legal action. At that point the original settlement offer will no longer be an option and the amount will increase as a result of us having to involve our attorneys.

Nothing contained or omitted from this correspondence is, or shall be deemed to be either a full statement of the facts or applicable law, an admission of any fact, or waiver or limitation of any of the Paradox Pictures's rights or remedies, all of which are specifically retained and reserved.

The information in this notice is accurate. We have a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of herein is not authorized by the registered copyright owner, its agent, or by operation of law. We swear under penalty of perjury, that we are authorized to act on behalf of Paradox Pictures.

Sincerely,

Dale Spislander
Copyright Enforcement Agent

Copyright Enforcement Group, LLC
8484 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 220
Beverly Hills, CA 90211

Toll Free: 877-5-COPYRIGHT (877-526-7974)
Email: support@copyrightsettlements.com
Website: www.copyrightsettlements.com

So apparently I have downloaded what I can surmise as bad porn. Except, I haven't. And this is where my leaving-my-network unguarded has bitten me in the ass; my router has been shit lately, won't get along with my firewall or my modem, so for the last few months I've been leaving it off. I occasionally used a MAC address filter, but had it turned off after the last reset. There was one time that I saw someone log onto the network, and I blocked their address, but haven't since.

Now I'm a little freaked out. One on hand, quick googling shows that this isn't a lawsuit persay, but how do I keep it from going that way? Also, when I have NO money right now? All I know is that apparently there's companies out there who buy up these things like companies buy up credit collections.

Help me not freak out here.

E: I haven't followed those links, not have I written back any explanation.

9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
MetroidZoid on
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Posts

  • SiskaSiska Shorty Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Do not use any of the phone# or other contact information in this e-mail to contact these people, until you have verified it's real. The fact that they are accusing you of downloading illegal porn raises the possibility that it's a scam. That they simply hope to scare you into giving them money by throwing naughty sex accusations at you. So you need look up a Charter customer service number, either on your bill or google, call them and ask if this is legit or not. Since any "evidence" against you would have to come from them, they should know. They should at the very least be able to tell you if (1-866-229-7286) is actually a phone# of theirs.

    *EDIT* Here is a "what to do" link that may be relevant for you.--->http://www.homelandsecureit.com/blog/2011/07/have-you-received-a-letter-or-email-from-the-riaa-unsecured-access-points-could-cause-this/

    Siska on
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Maybe I'm way off base here, but if this was legitimate, it seems odd to me that it was e-mailed to you. Obviously your ISP has your home address; I would think they would send you an actual physical notice.

  • FyndirFyndir Registered User regular
    As Siska said, the first step is to contact your ISP (using methods not listed in that particular email just incase) to confirm that they actually received that forwarded portion from a law firm of some description.

    Even if the email is really from your ISP it could still be, for all intents and purposes, a scam.

    There have been in the past law firms that essentially spam out these kinds of letters or emails regardless of truth, evidence, etc, hoping that people will shut up and pay up to avoid a hassle.

    If you genuinely and honestly know that you did not do anything then you need to speak to a lawyer, try and get a free consultation and take a printout of the email with you for them to read.

  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Google the phone number. It's actually a real letter.

  • MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    That's what I was getting from research ... I want to call Charter and sort this out, but not call and have them go "Whelp thanks for calling, now we know you're fucked" or something. Charter's kind of ... well a dick at times.

    E: It's also looking like the standard 'fee' for this thing is about $125 ... I hate the notion of paying even $10 for this, but I cannot afford any time or money for court stuff right now. Is settling for this kind of abuse the cowards way out, or the easy way out, or both? BUT what if I go on that site and it's not $100 or $200 but something huge, at that point have I 'admitted' in their eyes, even if it's legal BS? Uggghh hate the internet so much right now.

    MetroidZoid on
    9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
    3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
  • CygnusZCygnusZ Registered User regular
    IANAL, but this sounds like bullshit.

    http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137751

  • AdusAdus Registered User regular
    I'm not sure how having a password on your wireless has anything to do with the communication between your modem and router. That's at least what I'm gathering from what you said.

    I'm also not sure how calling them would fuck you over either. What's wrong with saying "Hey I got this bogus email about downloading something I didn't"? If you're lucky they may be able to help you out. I mean, probably not but I don't know why it would make things worse.

  • MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    I guess I'm kind of paranoid about digging myself into a hole because I used to use Bittorrent on one of the hard drives in this computer, but that was at least two years ago. Since then I've gotten Steam and iTunes and stopped being such a silly goose, but I don't want those actions to bite me in the ass now.

    9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
    3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    As someone who gets like 10 of these a week, chill out duder.

    Charter don't give a shit, they're just required to pass these things onto you. Even if the people that sent them a notice aren't just a scam outfit, they don't have any of your info. All they had was an IP address, and you can't (yet) sue an IP address. The only way to really fuck yourself is by following their links through and saying "Yes! Here's some contact info you can tie to that IP address!". Charter can't give that to them, and they want to trick you into doing it. Just put a password on your wireless and move on.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    As someone who gets like 10 of these a week, chill out duder.

    Charter don't give a shit, they're just required to pass these things onto you. Even if the people that sent them a notice aren't just a scam outfit, they don't have any of your info. All they had was an IP address, and you can't (yet) sue an IP address. The only way to really fuck yourself is by following their links through and saying "Yes! Here's some contact info you can tie to that IP address!". Charter can't give that to them, and they want to trick you into doing it. Just put a password on your wireless and move on.

    Pretty much this, there is a massive chance these guys know nothing about you other than your IP address. Their success rate for these things is really low, that's why they'll charge a lot of money hoping you'll be one of the low percentage to fall for it. I'm not saying there's no chance at all this could go to court just that it's unlikely. But bear it in mind as others have said if you do choose to reply to this message you'll be marking yourself as a priority target among the thousands of other people they probably sent this message to this month.

  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    ignore the letter at the bottom. don't pay anyone any money, it is a scam. your ISP may have a policy where getting a certain number of these letters means that they shut down your internet.

    so get your internet secured ASAP.

  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    There are a lot of really unpleasant things that can happen to you because of unsecured wireless. Like 'SWAT team breaking down your door and shooting your dog because one of your neighbours is a pedo and was stealing your wifi' unpleasant.

    Fix that shit fast. MAC address filtering is hardly ideal but it's a world better than nothing.

    Ignore the letter.

    Erik
  • EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Yeah, this is Charter saying "We are letting you know that we received a subpoena for a list of IP addresses, one of which has been assigned to you during the period stated in the subpoena."

    Here's the EFF page on it, as well as your best approach for a response to your ISP. Personally, I think it's worthwhile to respond because of privacy concerns -- if your personal contact information is sent around to whoever subpoena'd charter, they may not sue you, but they can definitely harass you and sell your information to telemarketers and more.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/file-sharing/subpoena-defense

    EggyToast on
    || Flickr — || PSN: EggyToast
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    EggyToast wrote: »
    Yeah, this is Charter saying "We are letting you know that we received a subpoena for a list of IP addresses, one of which has been assigned to you during the period stated in the subpoena."

    Here's the EFF page on it, as well as your best approach for a response to your ISP. Personally, I think it's worthwhile to respond because of privacy concerns -- if your personal contact information is sent around to whoever subpoena'd charter, they may not sue you, but they can definitelIty harass you and sell your information to telemarketers and more.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/file-sharing/subpoena-defense

    It's not even at the point yet where they're suing Charter for info. This is all preemptive scaremongering.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
  • MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    Okay, thanks for all the info. So I'm just going to well basically ignore it right now. I feel a little better, a little angry too.

    9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
    3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
  • Gilbert0Gilbert0 North of SeattleRegistered User regular
    ISP's send out THOUSANDS of these. It's what everyone has said above. Charter is just playing the middle man and if you DID respond directly to the bottom letter, they can set a name and face to an IP address.

  • godmodegodmode Southeast JapanRegistered User regular
    While I'm fairly certain the complaint from your ISP is real (I have gotten one like it before, for something I did actually download), but there's good news:
    If this is your first letter or notice, ODDS ARE (capitalized because I'm speculating and I'm not a lawyer) it's a warning, and nothing will come of it. Especially since you didn't do anything wrong. Change the password on your router to mitigate any further wifi jacking (if that's what happened) and keep doing what you're doing. Many of these cases don't actually go to court, it's usually just a lawyer somewhere looking for a quick payday from settlement money. ODDS ARE (again) that they do not have enough evidence to prosecute. You SHOULD be in the clear.

    Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I follow news attached to cases like these closely. There's a lot of coverage about IP law on Ars Technica.

  • EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    EggyToast wrote: »
    Yeah, this is Charter saying "We are letting you know that we received a subpoena for a list of IP addresses, one of which has been assigned to you during the period stated in the subpoena."

    Here's the EFF page on it, as well as your best approach for a response to your ISP. Personally, I think it's worthwhile to respond because of privacy concerns -- if your personal contact information is sent around to whoever subpoena'd charter, they may not sue you, but they can definitelIty harass you and sell your information to telemarketers and more.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/file-sharing/subpoena-defense

    It's not even at the point yet where they're suing Charter for info. This is all preemptive scaremongering.

    I didn't say they're suing Charter, I said they're subpoenaing Charter. That's precisely what the email he received says, that based on the DMCA they are required to forward the email to the person with a certain IP, and Charter can provide the customer's details back to the copyright troll.

    I say this because the exact thing happened to me -- I received a notice from Comcast saying my IP was identified, and that was it. I didn't think much of it at the time. Then, I received a packet in the mail threatening me with a lawsuit unless I paid them. I also received multiple harassing phone calls from a "lawyer" in Chicago. Nothing came of it because I ignored them, but it was still unsettling, and I could've avoided it entirely had I responded as the EFF suggests, with a letter back to my ISP preventing them from sharing my personal information.

    || Flickr — || PSN: EggyToast
  • RadicalTurnipRadicalTurnip Registered User regular
    My mom got one of these from Cox when I was younger and living at home because of a stupid torrent I did to prove to this annoying kid that my computer that I built could run Crysis better than his "gaming" laptop that he spent lots of money on did. It was stupid...and I torrented some other stuff before that, mostly old TV shows, but after that I stopped torrenting anything, lol...I was really scared, and she was quite mad, but we ended up basically ignoring it and it never really came back up.

    That isn't to say that that's what'll happen for you, but I would imagine that it's a lot less likely than you're probably thinking right now. I guess I don't have any real advice, I just wanted you to know that the end is not necessarily nigh.

  • l3lasphemer69l3lasphemer69 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    As having received one of these this morning, they would come directly from your ISP. The ISP says that they got a notice from someone that you were downloading whatever. If it came from another source I would call bullshit and delete.

    Also if you do plan on torrenting, make sure to wear a condom.... errr use PeerBlocker

    l3lasphemer69 on
  • Dr. FrenchensteinDr. Frenchenstein Registered User regular
    I'd be more worried about whoever might be stealing your bandwidth than this letter.

  • blue_monarchblue_monarch Registered User new member
    edited June 2012
    Hi MetroidZoid :)

    Did you end up paying them?

    I received exactly the same letter from exactly the same troll "[name deleted - ceres]". I made a mistake and click on the links to see what the heck they are talking about. I thought it was from my ISP. It took me a while to understand that my ISP was forwarding the messages from these trolls. The posts and the comments I read later on advises not to click on any link they sent ... OR they may get a hold of your contact info. I did not know what I was doing :(

    I am not very computer literate :( I did not have a password protected wireless in my apartment. Who knows which one of my neighbors used my wireless to download some of the stuff the copyright troll mentioned in his email. Who knows if these people are not making stuff up? The IP address they show in the email matches my IP address - a co worker showed me how to check IP addresses- . However, it is easier to accuse someone with stealing and put the burden of proof on the other person I guess.

    From what I read, the company is real, BUT in order to get any money from you, they need a court order. I read it on CNET that they hired a lawyer to sue 1,568 people in the country but the article did not say what the outcome was.

    What should I do? I did not download any of the material they mentioned :( I just learned what a "torrent" is! They are asking $200 per file ($2000 total). Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?

    What did you do? Did you pay? It is bothering me that I am asked to pay for someone else's crime. If someone grabbed a knife from my kitchen and hurt someone else, why should I pay for his/her crime?

    Let me know what you decided to do. Also if anyone else has any information about this company or any similar case please let us know

    Thank you,

    Blue


    ceres on
  • MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    I followed the general advice of this thread and ignored it. They're trying to get you to settle before anything ever goes to court, in short.

    9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
    3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?

    technically, yes.

    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    good news though - just ignore this email. its just a scare tactic to try to get you to pay. Nothing will come of it.

    In addition, secure your wireless.

  • RendRend Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?
    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    ...which is an absolutely and completely absurd law. Putting the onus on an average user to secure their connection against those who would hijack it is like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Even if you know what you're doing, it's only a matter of time before you either find something you're unequipped for, or you face a problem that it would take an expert to solve.

    But that's just my opinion. And in either case, yes, no wireless network ever should go without at least a password. Secure it.

  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    It's still absolutely impossible to prove infringement, and, also, if I recall, illegal to use an IP address as a defacto ID of proof of infringement. You need proof besides an IP address, this came out fairly recently too, I want to say within the past 2-3 months the court ruled against IP addresses as identification of infringement.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    It's still absolutely impossible to prove infringement, and, also, if I recall, illegal to use an IP address as a defacto ID of proof of infringement. You need proof besides an IP address, this came out fairly recently too, I want to say within the past 2-3 months the court ruled against IP addresses as identification of infringement.

    especially considering there were people in publishing houses who got accused of piracy and successfully used the my IP was spoofed defense

    camo_sig.png
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Place at the tableRegistered User regular
    1) wad up notice

    2) throw it away

    3) secure your access point.

    4) Cool it on any downloading you may or may not do for a while

    It's not a legal service, it's basically just a warning saying they think you may be a pirate, and that they think you may have pirated the following.

    My ISP will cut you off if you get three in a year, but other than that they're pretty toothless, legally. Their are too many other possible things going on for them to prove this is you pirating.

  • tech_huntertech_hunter More SeattleRegistered User regular
    Bowen is correct and here is a link describing that decsion made in a New York federal court HERE

    Also comcast is reportedly no longer providing customer information to those claiming their copyright has been infringed. Also many judges are throwing out these john doe enjoinders, or telling the rights holder's lawyers they have to file each individual sperately. Which from what I understand caosts the plaintiff a few hundred each.

    So the landscape of copyright enforcement or rather these shakedowns is changing and it will be interesting to see how the industry scrambles. hopefully to change the way they do business. Since their current model is starting to hit their bottom line.

    Sig to mucho Grande!
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?
    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    ...which is an absolutely and completely absurd law. Putting the onus on an average user to secure their connection against those who would hijack it is like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Even if you know what you're doing, it's only a matter of time before you either find something you're unequipped for, or you face a problem that it would take an expert to solve.

    But that's just my opinion. And in either case, yes, no wireless network ever should go without at least a password. Secure it.

    Oh I agree its absurd. But there is evidence of similar laws elsewhere.

    For example, in Australia if your car is flashed by a speed camera and you weren't driving, the onus is on you to prove who was, not on them to prove that it was you. By default you are assumed to have responsibility for where your car is and what it is doing.


  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?
    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    ...which is an absolutely and completely absurd law. Putting the onus on an average user to secure their connection against those who would hijack it is like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Even if you know what you're doing, it's only a matter of time before you either find something you're unequipped for, or you face a problem that it would take an expert to solve.

    But that's just my opinion. And in either case, yes, no wireless network ever should go without at least a password. Secure it.

    Oh I agree its absurd. But there is evidence of similar laws elsewhere.

    For example, in Australia if your car is flashed by a speed camera and you weren't driving, the onus is on you to prove who was, not on them to prove that it was you. By default you are assumed to have responsibility for where your car is and what it is doing.


    To be fair, in the case of a car, you usually know exactly who is using it - you can't really impersonate someone else's car without going through more trouble than it's worth.

    Not to mention, not only does someone need to know to secure their wireless, they need to know how to - if they use WEP... well, one lawyer is going to say "It's a secure network!" and the other is stuck explaining cryptography and such. (Not to mention devices that, for some reason or other, can't use anything more secure than WEP... which is, frankly, little more than a "Do Not Disturb" sign in terms of security)

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    They'll just shut down your connection (or throttle it into nothingness) long before it gets to actual lawyers. Your ISP doesn't really care how secure you claim your wireless network is.

    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    To be honest, if your wireless IS getting leeched, your wireless simply isn't secure.

    People with the talents to crack proper encryption don't spend their time stealing people's wi-fi.

    I've had a simple WPA2 encryption on my wi-fi with an 8-12 digit passkey (i've changed it twice in seven years) for the entire time I've had wi-fi, and never had a single issue.

  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?
    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    ...which is an absolutely and completely absurd law. Putting the onus on an average user to secure their connection against those who would hijack it is like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Even if you know what you're doing, it's only a matter of time before you either find something you're unequipped for, or you face a problem that it would take an expert to solve.

    But that's just my opinion. And in either case, yes, no wireless network ever should go without at least a password. Secure it.

    Uh - no it is not like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Securing your network is the same as locking your door when you go outside. At least over here, if my door is not locked and my place gets burglarized, insurance won't pay up.
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Is it my fault that I did not have a password protected wireless?
    from the current legal standpoint, you are responsible for everything that is done with your internet connection, and it is up to you to secure it properly

    ...which is an absolutely and completely absurd law. Putting the onus on an average user to secure their connection against those who would hijack it is like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Even if you know what you're doing, it's only a matter of time before you either find something you're unequipped for, or you face a problem that it would take an expert to solve.

    But that's just my opinion. And in either case, yes, no wireless network ever should go without at least a password. Secure it.

    Oh I agree its absurd. But there is evidence of similar laws elsewhere.

    For example, in Australia if your car is flashed by a speed camera and you weren't driving, the onus is on you to prove who was, not on them to prove that it was you. By default you are assumed to have responsibility for where your car is and what it is doing.

    And that is wrong how? It is your car, it is registered to you - so why shouldn't police automatically assume that you are responsible for what happens with the car (except when it got stolen)?

  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    Car analogies and why they don't work! The correct analogy here is that they are expecting to you to lock your car (though I'd argue that securing your router is a tad more complex than that) and thus holding you liable for all damage done when someone steals your unlocked car and goes on a joyride. The reason the analogy falls on its face is that the car thief then returns the car to your drive in pristine condition leaving no evidience to the common man that it was ever off being used in a crime spree, and that the crime spree and you taking your daily commute can be happening simultaneously without your knowledge!

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    Uh - no it is not like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Securing your network is the same as locking your door when you go outside. At least over here, if my door is not locked and my place gets burglarized, insurance won't pay up.

    Putting a password on your network is indeed like expecting you to lock up your door. Did you read to the end of my post and see that I do indeed expect the average user to at least secure their network with a password? Because if you did, you have a very odd definition of secure.

    A single password does not a "secure" network make, especially when stuff like file sharing, p2p, hosting servers, botnetting, and all those other infosec buzzwords come into play. If you click on a malign link, it doesn't matter if you have a password on your network. Someone can use your wifi now in their botnet to participate in distributed denial of service attacks. Are you secure? Were you secure? There are times when you don't even have to click the link. There are exploits out there (I'm sure for current versions of stuff, though they perhaps have or have not been found yet) which can allow a person who knows them to gain full remote access to your computer without you ever knowing, if you happen to have adobe, or flash, or java installed. In the OP's case, there was downloading going on, which could have just as easily been someone using his computer in a zombie network to distribute the files to himself like a tiny private p2p network.

    Would he have been "secure" then?

    Given the nature of his letter, I think it's more likely someone leeched his internet, so most of those examples are largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    However, the key and relevance is that putting a password on something absolutely does not secure it. It is simply one gate the attacker must breach. And while it is a gate that we should rightfully expect everyone to have locked, if it happens to be overcome, it would be preposterous to punish the end user for it.

    Rend on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Even the 'locking your door' comparison is sort of silly. What the law says on the subject nonwithstanding, there's plenty of people out there who get hung up even trying to find the IP address of their router. There's also plenty of people like my folks, whose qwest-issued wireless router/modem doesn't even support WPA.

    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    It's more like plumbing a door, installing a deadbolt, and then actually turning it to lock while you're not home.

    That's still not going to stop someone from breaking your window or kicking down the door, you're not really liable even if someone does burgle you and then takes your knife and stabs people with it.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    Uh - no it is not like putting the onus on the average motorist to maintain their car without the help of a mechanic. Securing your network is the same as locking your door when you go outside. At least over here, if my door is not locked and my place gets burglarized, insurance won't pay up.

    Putting a password on your network is indeed like expecting you to lock up your door. Did you read to the end of my post and see that I do indeed expect the average user to at least secure their network with a password? Because if you did, you have a very odd definition of secure.

    A single password does not a "secure" network make, especially when stuff like file sharing, p2p, hosting servers, botnetting, and all those other infosec buzzwords come into play. If you click on a malign link, it doesn't matter if you have a password on your network. Someone can use your wifi now in their botnet to participate in distributed denial of service attacks. Are you secure? Were you secure? There are times when you don't even have to click the link. There are exploits out there (I'm sure for current versions of stuff, though they perhaps have or have not been found yet) which can allow a person who knows them to gain full remote access to your computer without you ever knowing, if you happen to have adobe, or flash, or java installed. In the OP's case, there was downloading going on, which could have just as easily been someone using his computer in a zombie network to distribute the files to himself like a tiny private p2p network.

    Would he have been "secure" then?

    Given the nature of his letter, I think it's more likely someone leeched his internet, so most of those examples are largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    However, the key and relevance is that putting a password on something absolutely does not secure it. It is simply one gate the attacker must breach. And while it is a gate that we should rightfully expect everyone to have locked, if it happens to be overcome, it would be preposterous to punish the end user for it.

    Well, all analogies aside - what constitutes "secure" is debatable. But if the network owner did nothing to secure the network, I don't see why he shouldn't be liable.

    But I agree - especially with network security it is pretty difficult for the average user to do much more than just put a password on it. Btw, I think that should be enough to not make him liable for anything that happens. This was the gist of my "locked door" analogy. If I don't at least lock it, I lose all insurance and I am blamed partially for the burglary. If it is locked - different case alltogether.

    Somebody just has to define what "locked" means when it comes to networks.

This discussion has been closed.