I thought Don looked to be on the verge of tears when he put his head in his hands during that scene. I think this is part of what people have been getting at, in that Don is sort of a deconstruction of traditional masculinity(at least, or especially for that era). He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
There are no genuinely good people, everyone has their flaws and really, just the same goes for Don. He has an extremly solid moral framework, he knows how to treat his kids, he does want people around him to be happy. But he is also an egoistic douchebag who is in love with himself.
There's something about Don, that I find really difficult to pin down and which is closely tied to my unease about people writing him off as a raging asshole. What I have so far is this: Don does have a solid framework on which he bases his behaviour and it does differ markedly from many of the people around him. Don's rules aren't self-serving (like Sterling's), and he does not seem to be the kind of guy, who changes them when they stand in the way of getting what he wants (like Campbell).
As somebody else (Kana?) noted, if he were just a huge asshole, he'd be far less miserable about his life. That doesn't mean he hasn't behaved awfully at times, but I do think that if we look at the sum of things he's done; the picture is a murky grey, as opposed to a deep black. I think Campbell especially comes out as being a far worse human being than Don.
There are no genuinely good people, everyone has their flaws and really, just the same goes for Don. He has an extremly solid moral framework, he knows how to treat his kids, he does want people around him to be happy. But he is also an egoistic douchebag who is in love with himself.
There's something about Don, that I find really difficult to pin down and which is closely tied to my unease about people writing him off as a raging asshole. What I have so far is this: Don does have a solid framework on which he bases his behaviour and it does differ markedly from many of the people around him. Don's rules aren't self-serving (like Sterling's), and he does not seem to be the kind of guy, who changes them when they stand in the way of getting what he wants (like Campbell).
As somebody else (Kana?) noted, if he were just a huge asshole, he'd be far less miserable about his life. That doesn't mean he hasn't behaved awfully at times, but I do think that if we look at the sum of things he's done; the picture is a murky grey, as opposed to a deep black. I think Campbell especially comes out as being a far worse human being than Don.
See, this is discussion: you say this and I counter, then you respond. Like so: How is something major like taking someone else's identity or calling your wife's shrink to see what she's saying about her life not self serving? How is proposing running away to Rachel and abandoning all their responsibility not self serving?
I thought Don looked to be on the verge of tears when he put his head in his hands during that scene. I think this is part of what people have been getting at, in that Don is sort of a deconstruction of traditional masculinity(at least, or especially for that era). He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
yeah i'm actually glad that this season has been a lot less subtle and is really working the grim dark shit home
i caught onto the whole "everybody's fucking crazy in this show" vibe from episode 1 of the first season. the show's called "Mad Men" for crying out loud.
but a lot of people who watched the show almost seemed to glorify not just the fashion (which is acceptable and understandable cause the aesthetic of the show rocks), but the characters and their attitudes. instead of seeing why that era's ethos was incredibly destructive, they almost seemed to be wishing they were born into it or something.
maybe the show acts as a fantasy for misogynistic white male viewers. hahahaha.
He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
I think the reason for that is really just the fact that people respect Don, take him seriously and value his opinion. Which is something most men's magazine readers wish were true of them as well. I really think that this is the extent to which Don Draper is idolized. His behaviour and questionable motives are kind of overlooked. That's problematic in itself, of course, but I think it's important not to turn it around.
People don't idolise Don because of the things he does wrong, but because of the strengths and positive qualitites he does exhibit.
I thought Don looked to be on the verge of tears when he put his head in his hands during that scene. I think this is part of what people have been getting at, in that Don is sort of a deconstruction of traditional masculinity(at least, or especially for that era). He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
yeah i'm actually glad that this season has been a lot less subtle and is really working the grim dark shit home
i caught onto the whole "everybody's fucking crazy in this show" vibe from episode 1 of the first season. the show's called "Mad Men" for crying out loud.
but a lot of people who watched the show almost seemed to glorify not just the fashion (which is acceptable and understandable cause the aesthetic of the show rocks), but the characters and their attitudes. instead of seeing why that era's ethos was incredibly destructive, they almost seemed to be wishing they were born into it or something.
maybe the show acts as a fantasy for misogynistic white male viewers. hahahaha.
Every time my wife and I watch Mad Men we remark on how happy we are not to live in the era. My wife is an admin assistant and she's like Joan on fucking roids and coke when it comes to assertiveness and not taking shit. If she ever had to deal with a grimy little pimp like Pete Campbell, Pete would be dead and I'd be a character witness in her defense.
so anyone want to hazard a guess at how much of Lane's salary went towards taxes? This was the era of the British supertax, and Lane was definitely in one of the brackets that would get reamed.
I think the guy was walking away with 40% of his income, tops.
He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
People don't idolise Don because of the things he does wrong, but because of the strengths and positive qualitites he does exhibit.
That's not exactly what I was implying, more that I find the bypass of his obvious negative characteristics to be kind of oddly humourous. His flaws are very apparent, to the point that idealizing him carries some inherent absurdity. I think that's where the traditional masculinity comes in, in that some viewers don't seem all that aware of the nature of Don as a character, interpreting the masculine portrayal in a somewhat non ironic manner.
It's kind of like when people started their own 'Fight clubs'.
so anyone want to hazard a guess at how much of Lane's salary went towards taxes? This was the era of the British supertax, and Lane was definitely in one of the brackets that would get reamed.
I think the guy was walking away with 40% of his income, tops.
marginal taxes man, marginal taxes
Besides in the 60s the US had a really high top marginal rate as well
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
People don't idolise Don because of the things he does wrong, but because of the strengths and positive qualitites he does exhibit.
That's not exactly what I was implying, more that I find the bypass of his obvious negative characteristics to be kind of oddly humourous. His flaws are very apparent, to the point that idealizing him carries some inherent absurdity. I think that's where the traditional masculinity comes in, in that some viewers don't seem all that aware of the nature of Don as a character, interpreting the masculine portrayal in a somewhat non ironic manner.
It's kind of like when people started their own 'Fight clubs'.
This is spot on. For anyone who idolizes Don Draper, they're obviously ignoring him wholly.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Apparently Peggy might be gone for good, depending on how much you want to read into like two sentences Jared Harris said.
"Elisabeth left the episode before and she’d been there since the beginning," Harris said by way of explaining why the cast and crew didn't throw a party to commemorate his exit from the show, adding, "People leave and it’s just part of it."
When pressed as to whether he was suggesting that Peggy was, essentially, now "dead" to the show herself, rather than merely off pursuing new opportunities with guys in progressive turtlenecks, Harris appeared to hesitate a bit which OH MY GOD HE IS TOTALLY COVERING UP FOR SOMETHING, saying, "Um… I have no idea what Matthew Weiner intends to do and even then I couldn’t tell you." http://www.avclub.com/articles/lets-all-freak-out-pointlessly-over-the-idea-of-el,80819/
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
He's not a being to aspire to, which is really funny in some ways, like seeing men's magazine reader polls placing him at the top of who men wish they could be.
People don't idolise Don because of the things he does wrong, but because of the strengths and positive qualitites he does exhibit.
That's not exactly what I was implying, more that I find the bypass of his obvious negative characteristics to be kind of oddly humourous. His flaws are very apparent, to the point that idealizing him carries some inherent absurdity. I think that's where the traditional masculinity comes in, in that some viewers don't seem all that aware of the nature of Don as a character, interpreting the masculine portrayal in a somewhat non ironic manner.
It's kind of like when people started their own 'Fight clubs'.
Ah, I get what you're saying. And I don't entirely disagree with this. Although I do think that Don is a very ambivalent figure, especially as far as intended audience sympathy and identification goes. I think the writers are very much aware that they have a very charismatic actor in the role and are working hard to keep the audience somewhat conflicted about Don.
I would say that any blanket celebration or condemnation of the character is missing the point.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I think he lost his respect for her when she quit the firm. It's just been a little (very little) while in coming. God, what did they last, six months? A year?
Mad King George on
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
This season opened with a baby's bum and ended with old man ass. Its like Baby New Year and Old Man Time, only with butts
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Spoilers for the last few episodes, for some reason
Peggy:
I will be incredibly bummed if she's written off the show, since she's such a well-developed and interesting character. However. the scene at her new firm give me some hope that she's not going to be written off completely (ala Sal) but will move into Betty Draper territory.
I also was hoping Peggy would respond to Don asking her why she's at the movies during the work day by saying "Eh, just getting high and giving handjobs to random strangers".
Don and Megan:
I don't think Don has lost respect for Megan, but has assumed she's "left him alone" emotionally by having something important in her life other than him. This gives him license to do whatever he wants. For all his poise and confidence, Don is at heart a massively insecure narcissist. The main difference between him and Pete isn't that Don is more moral, but that Don is more competent.
Two beautiful shots at the end there, the partners surveying the new floor and don walking away from Megan.
What do you think he realized at the en there? That Megan wasn't good enough in her screen test? Or that his being is so corrupt that there's no point to being true to anyone but himself
Two beautiful shots at the end there, the partners surveying the new floor and don walking away from Megan.
What do you think he realized at the en there? That Megan wasn't good enough in her screen test? Or that his being is so corrupt that there's no point to being true to anyone but himself
What I got from the screen test scene:
He realizes that Megan is actually good enough, and that he has to decide between keeping her to himself or doing her a favor that he knows will launch her career. The more I think about it, the more it seems like Don is really looking for a mother figure that won't "leave him", which includes having any emotional life or other things outside of Don.
When the woman asks don, "Are you alone?" Is how he feels. That Megan abandoned him and that they he is alone again. With Betty it was her childishness and self obsession that probably led him down that road the first time. With Megan, its her choosing acting over him. I mean obviously you can do both, have a career and be with someone, but thats not the way Don feels. Also you only live twice was a fantastic way to end the episode. It dovetailed nicely with Peggy fulfilling her "dream" of going to a client visit and she is confronted with the ugly reality of it. A crappy hotel room with two dogs humping outside. The Lyrics of the song, talk about 2 lives, one for you and one for your dream. This whole season, most of the characters were living their second lives, the one of their dreams. Don in love with Megan, Peggy becoming creative head, Ginsberg writing copy for clients, Pete with his affair. The reality of their situation kind of ruined their dream. Perfect song to end the season. Incredibly well done.
Incredibly boring finale up until the end, but the show is now spinning it's wheels.
Going into Season 6, Don is back and Megan is gone. I still feel like it should have ended at Season 4 with Don choosing Faye, who really is his ideal woman as far as I can tell. If he wants a mother figure, that's her. If he wants sex and looks, that's her. Season 4 was such a masterful arc for Don, only at the very end to go back to Square 1 which we more or less had to suffer through (in terms of Don's character) for all of Season 5. And now, with the finale, we're basically back to Don Draper Season 1/3/whatever.
Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.
Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.
Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.
Yes. Totally. Guilt has always been the mark of a rotten man. As has been putting your own selfish needs (for a mother figure) behind the needs of people you care about (like Megan).
Seriously. If you start out convinced that Don is an evil bastard, the ambiguity of the show's characters will continually serve to prove your point. The fact that you're either not willing or able to acknowledge this, is why you don't get the show.
Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.
Yes. Totally. Guilt has always been the mark of a rotten man. As has been putting your own selfish needs (for a mother figure) behind the needs of people you care about (like Megan).
Seriously. If you start out convinced that Don is an evil bastard, the ambiguity of the show's characters will continually serve to prove your point. The fact that you're either not willing or able to acknowledge this, is why you don't get the show.
Dude, I never said this. Ever. Not one single time. I said a guy who tries to abandon his family and cheats on his wife and abuses his underlings is a guy who is an asshole and you said you disagree, which means you think those aren't assholish things to do. I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things. Now you're strawmanning to move the goal posts. Stop.
Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.
Yes. Totally. Guilt has always been the mark of a rotten man. As has been putting your own selfish needs (for a mother figure) behind the needs of people you care about (like Megan).
Seriously. If you start out convinced that Don is an evil bastard, the ambiguity of the show's characters will continually serve to prove your point. The fact that you're either not willing or able to acknowledge this, is why you don't get the show.
Dude, I never said this. Ever. Not one single time. I said a guy who tries to abandon his family and cheats on his wife and abuses his underlings is a guy who is an asshole and you said you disagree, which means you think those aren't assholish things to do. I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things. Now you're strawmanning to move the goal posts. Stop.
It's probably a language thing, because to me "asshole" does not read as a particularly nuanced way of labelling a character. Whenever you're ready to switch to less simplistic descriptions, I'll drop the explanatory paraphrase.
And while we're on the topic of aggressively misreading posts:
I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
EDIT: You're arguing from a logical fallacy. The fact that I disagree with your conclusion ("Don is an asshole.") does not allow you to presuppose that I approve of his behaviour. And due to the nature of internet communication, it is impossible for me to tell if you've just made a hasty conclusion about my position in the heat of discussion or if you're just a dick. I'm going to assume the former and hope that this will clear things up now.
In which I talk extensively about my first impression of Mad Men's fifth season:
This has been by far my favourite season of Mad Men. The last half especially seemed to land punch after punch, as the show wrapped up each thematically coherent episode. While it did admittedly feel a little like an anthology show, having lost its sort of meandering plot development which irregularly produced those insightful and incisive moments, I've felt the moments that we did get this season hit much more precisely and powerfully.
The characters on the show have always been somewhat myopic in their struggles and problems. And those who did seem to look beyond their own petty hang-ups and problems were usually painted as hypocrites (early season-Paul) or completely disintegrated (S5 Paul). To some extent this show is deeply cynical about people's ability to care for their fellow man (or specifically woman). This season the focus really seemed to be about paying attention to this conceit and examining it within the show's setting. Within this introspection and self-obsession lies a lot of darkness, of course. So it's not much of a surprise, that this season has been far more morbid than others. When asked about this season's theme Weiner alluded to “every man for himself”, and that really is something that shows up over and over again in this season. Both from the characters we've come to expect (Campbell) and from those who we've thought of as “better” (Peggy). And there's hardly anything darker than having your faith in community and those around you destroyed.
That's what both Peggy and Don go through this season. From the beginning of the season Peggy has constantly had to readjust how much faith she could put in Don's leadership, creative abilty and respect for her work. For reasons she could not have known, she found herself unappreciated, taken advantage of and held back, which ultimately led to her leaving SCDP. What makes her arc so compelling and convincing is that even if she had known all the factors that contributed to the situations that chipped away at her sense of belonging there, I don't think anybody could have expected her to make a different choice. There is only so much a person can overlook and forgive in others, before a sense of self-preservation sets in that suggests that you remove yourself from the company of people whose actions have such a dramatic and negative effect on your well-being.
From Don's perspective on the other hand, this year (?) has been about abandonment. First Megan, who leaves SCDP and then threatens to leave their home in pursuit of her career. Then Peggy, who ends his mentorship (and in his mind their friendship) for her career. While it's obviously an over-reaction to think that they have abandoned Don Draper, in the mind of Dick Whitman and given his history being the second choice - no matter how difficult that choice may be – is no different from being abandoned. And just like we have slowly lost faith in the ability of the main cast to be good people (after Cooper, Sterling and Peggy even Megan sells out her friends for a chance to get what she wants), so does Don the finale. Don's failing with Megan is his inability to believe that Megan will not abandon him, when she gets her career, which she will most likely get, considering his reaction to her audition reel. So Don does one last act of kindness (by breaking his code of business) and gets her a job with one of his clients, before turning and walking away from her before she can do it to him. The tragedy of the whole thing is, that Don's lack of faith in Megan (or his incessant need for a woman who values him above everything else), is what's actually eating away at their marriage. The real issue that causes the cracks in their relationship. Don is so terrified of being abandoned by Megan, that it is impossible for him to imagine her actually inhabiting both roles: actress & wife. And no matter how much Megan swears, pleads and promises.. Dick Whitman does not believe her. That is some serious self-loathing shaping the character's mindset and it's what dooms him to be miserable, even when he has the chance to be happy.
In this way he isn't unlike Pete Campbell, who has everything he thought he wanted and still manages to get the crap beaten out of him. For the first time in the show Pete's storyline matches up with how mismatched and misplaced he seems in almost every scene he's in. I don't know if his character has just now started to make sense to me, or if the writing has just been more precise this season. Pete Campbell is a child. He is the opposite of a grown man. He might have the physical attributes of a boy his age, but he is incapable of dealing with disappointments and frustration, he is at the whim of his impulses and he lacks the understanding for the purpose of ethics and dispenses with them whenever they keep him from getting what he wants. In short, he is a boy playing at being a man. And so – on a meta-level – it makes perfect sense, that he would be paired up with a character who looks far younger than her years. And it's the reason why I thought Alexis Bledel's casting was spot-on. She looks barely a day older than her role as Rory Gilmore, and it makes perfect sense that it's the two characters who are utterly unprepared and unequipped to deal with the complexities and murkiness of adult life, who would be drawn to each other. (Additionally this makes her already Twilight-Zone-esque fate in the finale seem even creepier and more horrifying than it already is.) But when Pete Campbell is faced with the reality of a wife, a house, a kid, a job, reponsibilities and the transgressions that he has always considered part and parcel of the industry (namely: affairs) he cannot handle them. He completely falls for Beth, because the fact that she is an actual person with dreams, hopes, fears and desires is not something he is ready for. He finds himself resenting the drabness of suburbian life, and the people that comprise it. Incapable of accepting the imperfections of the life he has, he tries to ape the life he thought that other people have. That's where things go awry for Pete, and the sad thing is that he won't be able to fix this until he does begin to accept and shoulder responsibility. Not only for his actions, but also his behaviour and to some extent his impulses. (Alternatively, Campbell could try growing a beard to become more of a man. It worked for Commander Riker. )
These are just two characters whose arcs really worked for me this season. But I could gush just as enthusiastically about Peggy, Joan or Roger. This has been a fantastic season for an already fantastic show and I cannot wait for next season. Much like in the long break during the Sopranos' run, the Mad Man writing staff has come back refreshed and energized in a way that nobody would expect from a show in its fifth season.
Two beautiful shots at the end there, the partners surveying the new floor and don walking away from Megan.
What do you think he realized at the en there? That Megan wasn't good enough in her screen test? Or that his being is so corrupt that there's no point to being true to anyone but himself
Yeah, those two scenes were excellent, incredibly iconic while still evoking two of the really big things that were/are happening this season.
I did think as a finale it was a little weak, but only because the last 3 episodes have really been a massive finale spread out over thoughtful beats. We had a lot to chew on.
I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.
I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.
I'd take it as a reminder to her of her boyfriend back home, since it looked like she was in a motel. The whole thing at the end was showing how alone these people were, seeing two dogs hump when you're not able to would emphasize that.
I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.
I'd take it as a reminder to her of her boyfriend back home, since it looked like she was in a motel. The whole thing at the end was showing how alone these people were, seeing two dogs hump when you're not able to would emphasize that.
I think it falls more under "reality does not match your dreams issue." When Don throws money in Peggy's face he makes a comment about how she will get to Paris some other time. In the movie theater Peggy, rather excitedly, tells Don she is going to Virginia to tour the factor where they make the new lady cigarettes. Its her dream. She is traveling (not as exotic as Paris), but is important enough to go visit these places and its a fulfillment of her dream. But, the reality is, you are in a crappy cheap motel room and outside your window are two dogs humping. Not nearly as glamorous as Peggy thought it would.
I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.
She gets inspired
and brands the new cigarettes as Virgina Slims. The only plane crash that came up in a search for the time period and location was this. I don't think she'll exit the series in that manner.
Perhaps I'll have to watch again, but Peggy didn't seem all that sad in her little hotel room. It looked like she was bemused by the dogs then just sat on her bed. I didn't really get the impression that she was depressed about her situation or anything.
I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.
I'd take it as a reminder to her of her boyfriend back home, since it looked like she was in a motel. The whole thing at the end was showing how alone these people were, seeing two dogs hump when you're not able to would emphasize that.
I think it falls more under "reality does not match your dreams issue." When Don throws money in Peggy's face he makes a comment about how she will get to Paris some other time. In the movie theater Peggy, rather excitedly, tells Don she is going to Virginia to tour the factor where they make the new lady cigarettes. Its her dream. She is traveling (not as exotic as Paris), but is important enough to go visit these places and its a fulfillment of her dream. But, the reality is, you are in a crappy cheap motel room and outside your window are two dogs humping. Not nearly as glamorous as Peggy thought it would.
In a montage about being alone, it also empasizes the alone part.
Wonder what was up with the double nod to Bond in the episode. The use of the song at the end was obvious, but there's the scene of Don and Peggy watching Casino Royale, too.
Posts
There's something about Don, that I find really difficult to pin down and which is closely tied to my unease about people writing him off as a raging asshole. What I have so far is this: Don does have a solid framework on which he bases his behaviour and it does differ markedly from many of the people around him. Don's rules aren't self-serving (like Sterling's), and he does not seem to be the kind of guy, who changes them when they stand in the way of getting what he wants (like Campbell).
As somebody else (Kana?) noted, if he were just a huge asshole, he'd be far less miserable about his life. That doesn't mean he hasn't behaved awfully at times, but I do think that if we look at the sum of things he's done; the picture is a murky grey, as opposed to a deep black. I think Campbell especially comes out as being a far worse human being than Don.
See, this is discussion: you say this and I counter, then you respond. Like so: How is something major like taking someone else's identity or calling your wife's shrink to see what she's saying about her life not self serving? How is proposing running away to Rachel and abandoning all their responsibility not self serving?
yeah i'm actually glad that this season has been a lot less subtle and is really working the grim dark shit home
i caught onto the whole "everybody's fucking crazy in this show" vibe from episode 1 of the first season. the show's called "Mad Men" for crying out loud.
but a lot of people who watched the show almost seemed to glorify not just the fashion (which is acceptable and understandable cause the aesthetic of the show rocks), but the characters and their attitudes. instead of seeing why that era's ethos was incredibly destructive, they almost seemed to be wishing they were born into it or something.
maybe the show acts as a fantasy for misogynistic white male viewers. hahahaha.
I think the reason for that is really just the fact that people respect Don, take him seriously and value his opinion. Which is something most men's magazine readers wish were true of them as well. I really think that this is the extent to which Don Draper is idolized. His behaviour and questionable motives are kind of overlooked. That's problematic in itself, of course, but I think it's important not to turn it around.
People don't idolise Don because of the things he does wrong, but because of the strengths and positive qualitites he does exhibit.
Every time my wife and I watch Mad Men we remark on how happy we are not to live in the era. My wife is an admin assistant and she's like Joan on fucking roids and coke when it comes to assertiveness and not taking shit. If she ever had to deal with a grimy little pimp like Pete Campbell, Pete would be dead and I'd be a character witness in her defense.
I think the guy was walking away with 40% of his income, tops.
That's not exactly what I was implying, more that I find the bypass of his obvious negative characteristics to be kind of oddly humourous. His flaws are very apparent, to the point that idealizing him carries some inherent absurdity. I think that's where the traditional masculinity comes in, in that some viewers don't seem all that aware of the nature of Don as a character, interpreting the masculine portrayal in a somewhat non ironic manner.
It's kind of like when people started their own 'Fight clubs'.
marginal taxes man, marginal taxes
Besides in the 60s the US had a really high top marginal rate as well
This is spot on. For anyone who idolizes Don Draper, they're obviously ignoring him wholly.
When pressed as to whether he was suggesting that Peggy was, essentially, now "dead" to the show herself, rather than merely off pursuing new opportunities with guys in progressive turtlenecks, Harris appeared to hesitate a bit which OH MY GOD HE IS TOTALLY COVERING UP FOR SOMETHING, saying, "Um… I have no idea what Matthew Weiner intends to do and even then I couldn’t tell you."
http://www.avclub.com/articles/lets-all-freak-out-pointlessly-over-the-idea-of-el,80819/
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Ah, I get what you're saying. And I don't entirely disagree with this. Although I do think that Don is a very ambivalent figure, especially as far as intended audience sympathy and identification goes. I think the writers are very much aware that they have a very charismatic actor in the role and are working hard to keep the audience somewhat conflicted about Don.
I would say that any blanket celebration or condemnation of the character is missing the point.
Yeah, he's definitely a nuanced character, which is why he's able to carry the show so well(for the most part).
Steam: CavilatRest
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Peggy:
I also was hoping Peggy would respond to Don asking her why she's at the movies during the work day by saying "Eh, just getting high and giving handjobs to random strangers".
Don and Megan:
What do you think he realized at the en there? That Megan wasn't good enough in her screen test? Or that his being is so corrupt that there's no point to being true to anyone but himself
What I got from the screen test scene:
Don is such an incredibly emotionally dead person at this point.
Yep.
Yes. Totally. Guilt has always been the mark of a rotten man. As has been putting your own selfish needs (for a mother figure) behind the needs of people you care about (like Megan).
Seriously. If you start out convinced that Don is an evil bastard, the ambiguity of the show's characters will continually serve to prove your point. The fact that you're either not willing or able to acknowledge this, is why you don't get the show.
Dude, I never said this. Ever. Not one single time. I said a guy who tries to abandon his family and cheats on his wife and abuses his underlings is a guy who is an asshole and you said you disagree, which means you think those aren't assholish things to do. I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things. Now you're strawmanning to move the goal posts. Stop.
It's probably a language thing, because to me "asshole" does not read as a particularly nuanced way of labelling a character. Whenever you're ready to switch to less simplistic descriptions, I'll drop the explanatory paraphrase.
And while we're on the topic of aggressively misreading posts:
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
EDIT: You're arguing from a logical fallacy. The fact that I disagree with your conclusion ("Don is an asshole.") does not allow you to presuppose that I approve of his behaviour. And due to the nature of internet communication, it is impossible for me to tell if you've just made a hasty conclusion about my position in the heat of discussion or if you're just a dick. I'm going to assume the former and hope that this will clear things up now.
The characters on the show have always been somewhat myopic in their struggles and problems. And those who did seem to look beyond their own petty hang-ups and problems were usually painted as hypocrites (early season-Paul) or completely disintegrated (S5 Paul). To some extent this show is deeply cynical about people's ability to care for their fellow man (or specifically woman). This season the focus really seemed to be about paying attention to this conceit and examining it within the show's setting. Within this introspection and self-obsession lies a lot of darkness, of course. So it's not much of a surprise, that this season has been far more morbid than others. When asked about this season's theme Weiner alluded to “every man for himself”, and that really is something that shows up over and over again in this season. Both from the characters we've come to expect (Campbell) and from those who we've thought of as “better” (Peggy). And there's hardly anything darker than having your faith in community and those around you destroyed.
That's what both Peggy and Don go through this season. From the beginning of the season Peggy has constantly had to readjust how much faith she could put in Don's leadership, creative abilty and respect for her work. For reasons she could not have known, she found herself unappreciated, taken advantage of and held back, which ultimately led to her leaving SCDP. What makes her arc so compelling and convincing is that even if she had known all the factors that contributed to the situations that chipped away at her sense of belonging there, I don't think anybody could have expected her to make a different choice. There is only so much a person can overlook and forgive in others, before a sense of self-preservation sets in that suggests that you remove yourself from the company of people whose actions have such a dramatic and negative effect on your well-being.
From Don's perspective on the other hand, this year (?) has been about abandonment. First Megan, who leaves SCDP and then threatens to leave their home in pursuit of her career. Then Peggy, who ends his mentorship (and in his mind their friendship) for her career. While it's obviously an over-reaction to think that they have abandoned Don Draper, in the mind of Dick Whitman and given his history being the second choice - no matter how difficult that choice may be – is no different from being abandoned. And just like we have slowly lost faith in the ability of the main cast to be good people (after Cooper, Sterling and Peggy even Megan sells out her friends for a chance to get what she wants), so does Don the finale. Don's failing with Megan is his inability to believe that Megan will not abandon him, when she gets her career, which she will most likely get, considering his reaction to her audition reel. So Don does one last act of kindness (by breaking his code of business) and gets her a job with one of his clients, before turning and walking away from her before she can do it to him. The tragedy of the whole thing is, that Don's lack of faith in Megan (or his incessant need for a woman who values him above everything else), is what's actually eating away at their marriage. The real issue that causes the cracks in their relationship. Don is so terrified of being abandoned by Megan, that it is impossible for him to imagine her actually inhabiting both roles: actress & wife. And no matter how much Megan swears, pleads and promises.. Dick Whitman does not believe her. That is some serious self-loathing shaping the character's mindset and it's what dooms him to be miserable, even when he has the chance to be happy.
In this way he isn't unlike Pete Campbell, who has everything he thought he wanted and still manages to get the crap beaten out of him. For the first time in the show Pete's storyline matches up with how mismatched and misplaced he seems in almost every scene he's in. I don't know if his character has just now started to make sense to me, or if the writing has just been more precise this season. Pete Campbell is a child. He is the opposite of a grown man. He might have the physical attributes of a boy his age, but he is incapable of dealing with disappointments and frustration, he is at the whim of his impulses and he lacks the understanding for the purpose of ethics and dispenses with them whenever they keep him from getting what he wants. In short, he is a boy playing at being a man. And so – on a meta-level – it makes perfect sense, that he would be paired up with a character who looks far younger than her years. And it's the reason why I thought Alexis Bledel's casting was spot-on. She looks barely a day older than her role as Rory Gilmore, and it makes perfect sense that it's the two characters who are utterly unprepared and unequipped to deal with the complexities and murkiness of adult life, who would be drawn to each other. (Additionally this makes her already Twilight-Zone-esque fate in the finale seem even creepier and more horrifying than it already is.) But when Pete Campbell is faced with the reality of a wife, a house, a kid, a job, reponsibilities and the transgressions that he has always considered part and parcel of the industry (namely: affairs) he cannot handle them. He completely falls for Beth, because the fact that she is an actual person with dreams, hopes, fears and desires is not something he is ready for. He finds himself resenting the drabness of suburbian life, and the people that comprise it. Incapable of accepting the imperfections of the life he has, he tries to ape the life he thought that other people have. That's where things go awry for Pete, and the sad thing is that he won't be able to fix this until he does begin to accept and shoulder responsibility. Not only for his actions, but also his behaviour and to some extent his impulses. (Alternatively, Campbell could try growing a beard to become more of a man. It worked for Commander Riker. )
These are just two characters whose arcs really worked for me this season. But I could gush just as enthusiastically about Peggy, Joan or Roger. This has been a fantastic season for an already fantastic show and I cannot wait for next season. Much like in the long break during the Sopranos' run, the Mad Man writing staff has come back refreshed and energized in a way that nobody would expect from a show in its fifth season.
Yeah, those two scenes were excellent, incredibly iconic while still evoking two of the really big things that were/are happening this season.
I did think as a finale it was a little weak, but only because the last 3 episodes have really been a massive finale spread out over thoughtful beats. We had a lot to chew on.
"No, don't do it, don't you dare do it, NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"
Steam: CavilatRest
I'd take it as a reminder to her of her boyfriend back home, since it looked like she was in a motel. The whole thing at the end was showing how alone these people were, seeing two dogs hump when you're not able to would emphasize that.
I think it falls more under "reality does not match your dreams issue." When Don throws money in Peggy's face he makes a comment about how she will get to Paris some other time. In the movie theater Peggy, rather excitedly, tells Don she is going to Virginia to tour the factor where they make the new lady cigarettes. Its her dream. She is traveling (not as exotic as Paris), but is important enough to go visit these places and its a fulfillment of her dream. But, the reality is, you are in a crappy cheap motel room and outside your window are two dogs humping. Not nearly as glamorous as Peggy thought it would.
She gets inspired
In a montage about being alone, it also empasizes the alone part.
Wonder what was up with the double nod to Bond in the episode. The use of the song at the end was obvious, but there's the scene of Don and Peggy watching Casino Royale, too.