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Mad Men

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Posts

  • carmofincarmofin Registered User regular
    So the fifth season is done.

    It's not going to be my favorite season, that's for sure. But I was still pleasantly surprised. I remember when last season wrapped up, I felt like the show had jumped the shark, no way this secretary person was going to make sense in any way. So to me this season has been all about turning Megan into a believable character that can be a match for Don and it sure as hell succeeded in that. Megan was a fantastic addition to the story, so as far as I'm concerned Mad Men is still going strong.

    I like the season finale. No crazy plottwists, or rapid developments that leave you on the edge of the seat until the next season. It just wrapped everything up nicely and put it in place for more to come. The central question of the season was, to me, how does Don go from where he is to where he used to be. And as of today, that has been answered very nicely.

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  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Joe Dizzy wrote: »
    Joe Dizzy wrote: »
    Even Don's psyche is telling him he's rotten deep down. It feels so vindicating after the whole, "If you condemn Don then you don't get the show!" argument.

    Yes. Totally. Guilt has always been the mark of a rotten man. As has been putting your own selfish needs (for a mother figure) behind the needs of people you care about (like Megan).

    Seriously. If you start out convinced that Don is an evil bastard, the ambiguity of the show's characters will continually serve to prove your point. The fact that you're either not willing or able to acknowledge this, is why you don't get the show.

    Dude, I never said this. Ever. Not one single time. I said a guy who tries to abandon his family and cheats on his wife and abuses his underlings is a guy who is an asshole and you said you disagree, which means you think those aren't assholish things to do. I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things. Now you're strawmanning to move the goal posts. Stop.

    It's probably a language thing, because to me "asshole" does not read as a particularly nuanced way of labelling a character. Whenever you're ready to switch to less simplistic descriptions, I'll drop the explanatory paraphrase.

    But you're not paraphrasing. You're changing what I'm saying altogether and then saying you feel that what you changed it to is a ridiculous position to hold.
    Joe Dizzy wrote: »
    And while we're on the topic of aggressively misreading posts:
    I will never agree with you that cheating on your spouse and treating your employees shitty aren't bad things.

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

    EDIT: You're arguing from a logical fallacy. The fact that I disagree with your conclusion ("Don is an asshole.") does not allow you to presuppose that I approve of his behaviour. And due to the nature of internet communication, it is impossible for me to tell if you've just made a hasty conclusion about my position in the heat of discussion or if you're just a dick. I'm going to assume the former and hope that this will clear things up now.

    So you don't approve of what he does, but don't disapprove of him? That's like claiming you hate theft and then saying, "Some of my best friends are thieves." Divorcing a concept from the person doing it so completely is so without utility either as a rhetorical position or in real life as to be rendered utterly absurd. You might as well have said, "Flap-doodle!" for all the sense it makes.

    Mad King George on
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    Is it impossible to just watch characters unfold without segregating them into explicit "like" and "don't like" categories? I feel like I've been able to experience similar narratives where there were engaging characters that I didn't necessarily sympathize with/hate.

  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    I dont think its quite as clear cut on what Don's decision at the end is. Its very much supposed to be a cliff hanger and it what he does likely depends on why he did what he did before. We are supposed to know its a bit of a trying time for him in his relationship so he is vulnerable. I guess his conversation with peggy would insinuate what his decision will be.
    He assumes by helping Megan, she will eventually leave him, either for her career or for someone else. Peggy left him after being successful, so so will she. But I am not 100% sure he will cheat. I hope he doesn't I dont want a regression of the character like that...

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  • HeisenbergHeisenberg Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    We don't hear his answer, but the hesitation and the look implies heavily towards "Yes."

    Heisenberg on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    Smaug6 wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    I was thinking that when Peggy emphasized that she was going to Virginia on a plane that she would die after a plane crash and be written out of a show. I remember someone talking about a real-world plane crash around that time. I don't get the two dogs fucking thing.

    I'd take it as a reminder to her of her boyfriend back home, since it looked like she was in a motel. The whole thing at the end was showing how alone these people were, seeing two dogs hump when you're not able to would emphasize that.

    I think it falls more under "reality does not match your dreams issue." When Don throws money in Peggy's face he makes a comment about how she will get to Paris some other time. In the movie theater Peggy, rather excitedly, tells Don she is going to Virginia to tour the factor where they make the new lady cigarettes. Its her dream. She is traveling (not as exotic as Paris), but is important enough to go visit these places and its a fulfillment of her dream. But, the reality is, you are in a crappy cheap motel room and outside your window are two dogs humping. Not nearly as glamorous as Peggy thought it would.

    In a montage about being alone, it also empasizes the alone part.

    Except at the very end of the Peggy in the hotel scene, she's sitting on the bed flashing her big wacky grin, which to me shows that while all the other characters in that montage seem to find the concept of being or feeling alone terrifying, Peggy considers being alone to be a form of freedom.

    She has come a long way, baby.

    Also, tiny detail I found amusing: Ginsberg's shirt during the pitch meeting was filthy, which I thought was a nice shorthand for how much work he's had to pick up since Peggy left (and how fundamentally different he is from Don).

  • RhalloTonnyRhalloTonny Of the BrownlandsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    This
    Disrupter wrote: »
    I dont think its quite as clear cut on what Don's decision at the end is. Its very much supposed to be a cliff hanger and it what he does likely depends on why he did what he did before. We are supposed to know its a bit of a trying time for him in his relationship so he is vulnerable. I guess his conversation with peggy would insinuate what his decision will be.
    He assumes by helping Megan, she will eventually leave him, either for her career or for someone else. Peggy left him after being successful, so so will she. But I am not 100% sure he will cheat. I hope he doesn't I dont want a regression of the character like that...

    It definitely seemed like Don felt he was alone, as the parts with the brother (who also hung himself after being dismissed by Don) implied pretty heavily- whether or not he'll go back to cheating, he's acting like someone that was just incredibly hurt and alone.

    Which when you get right down to it, it makes sense. "If you're successful you leave other people behind," just like he's done his whole life. To Don, it seems like Megan just left him.

    Which means he's free to retaliate with cheating. Or tank the whole marriage because at least that would be under his control.

    Also, jeez, Pete. Getting beat up all over season 5.

    Edit: Totally loved how Ginsberg's every moment was in some kind of manic outrage.

    RhalloTonny on
    !
  • Joe DizzyJoe Dizzy Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    I dont think its quite as clear cut on what Don's decision at the end is. Its very much supposed to be a cliff hanger and it what he does likely depends on why he did what he did before. We are supposed to know its a bit of a trying time for him in his relationship so he is vulnerable. I guess his conversation with peggy would insinuate what his decision will be.
    He assumes by helping Megan, she will eventually leave him, either for her career or for someone else. Peggy left him after being successful, so so will she. But I am not 100% sure he will cheat. I hope he doesn't I dont want a regression of the character like that...

    I'd like to think that the ending is set up to be ambiguous and left for the viewer to fill in with whatever he thinks is most fitting to the character. But I agree that a regression of the character would be rather disappointing.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Am I the only one who thought tonight's episode would have made for a great series finale? That last moment alone was absolutely perfect.

  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Am I the only one who thought tonight's episode would have made for a great series finale? That last moment alone was absolutely perfect.

    Yeah, but we'd have needed a little closure on Betty's end of things.

  • HeisenbergHeisenberg Registered User regular
    I don't really like Ginsberg and I'm hoping he doesn't get much more screen time next season.

  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    I don't really like Ginsberg and I'm hoping he doesn't get much more screen time next season.

    You don't care for the character, or don't think he gels with the cast?

    Mad King George on
  • HeisenbergHeisenberg Registered User regular
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    I don't really like Ginsberg and I'm hoping he doesn't get much more screen time next season.

    You don't care for the character, or don't think he gels with the cast?

    Both. He's just kind of annoying and not that interesting. I'd rather have more Cooper.

  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    I don't really like Ginsberg and I'm hoping he doesn't get much more screen time next season.

    You don't care for the character, or don't think he gels with the cast?

    Both. He's just kind of annoying and not that interesting. I'd rather have more Cooper.

    Cooper is really the best character. Can't get enough of him.

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    I don't really like Ginsberg and I'm hoping he doesn't get much more screen time next season.

    You don't care for the character, or don't think he gels with the cast?

    Both. He's just kind of annoying and not that interesting. I'd rather have more Cooper.

    I get you. I felt the same way about Buffy's sister on that show.

    And yeah, Cooper is way underused. He needs an office where everyone hangs out around his creepy Japanese centerpiece again.

    Mad King George on
  • HeisenbergHeisenberg Registered User regular
    Yeah, so glad that he's finally getting his own office next season.

  • Joe DizzyJoe Dizzy Registered User regular
    Ginsberg is supposed to be grating. Much like Pete. I could imagine that he's the kind of face that is given to the young upstarts at the time, which makes it easier for the audience to sympathise with the established characters' misgivings about what is happening.

    Or he might just be a grating personality.

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    I like ginsberg

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I also like ginsberg...

    I also agree that it would have been a perfect finale. The last scene would be a great way to leave Don Draper, not knowing if his character will regress or not. The problem with him regressing isnt that it doesnt make sense for the character or as a part of his overall arch, its simply that I dont want to see it. Weve seen it. It was a good 3 seasons, but it was refreshing to move forward from that. It would be a perfect way to end the show, with that question, but its not a good way to continue the show IMO.

    Also, about his brother.

    Did he ever actually see his brother dead? Or did he simply hear about it?
    I realize the guilt from Lane's suicide drove Don to halucinate that his dead brother was talking to him. But what about the sighting in the elevator? Was that in his head? Was that simply a guy who looked like him? Or is there a possibility that his brother followed in his footsteps? Faked his own death (or simply had his only relative believe he was dead) and restart a new life, building it up? This was what I initially thought when the scene in the elevator happened. It makes sense for Don's guilt to make him think about his brother, but I would be more interested in a plot that showed his brother is alive and following his footsteps.

    Obviously, after the dentists office, that isnt the case. But I was excited for it at first...

    Disrupter on
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  • Joe DizzyJoe Dizzy Registered User regular
    I'm set to start my rewatch of season one soon (that's the season where Adam shows up, right?). I'll keep an eye out on how they set up his suicide. But I think it was pretty explicit and straightforward and the show doesn't strike me as playing tricks with audience knowledge like that.

  • carmofincarmofin Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Thats not the cheap kind of trick Mad Men would pull. I'm pretty sure we will see a lot more of Adam next season though, he seems like the perfect plot device to give Don a way to reflect upon himself. I would also accept it as the sole inheritence of Lanes character as far as plot development is concerned. The show IS called Mad Men after all.

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  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I agree that this would have been a good finale. These last couple episodes have been a little week, but man the ending of this one was pitch-perfect. Walking away from the set and then into the bar. Ordering an Old Fashioned. Just perfect.

    But I'm interested to see where it goes next year. Is next season the last one or are there 2 more?

    Behemoth on
    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • RhalloTonnyRhalloTonny Of the BrownlandsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Yeah- any missteps in the episode (Pete monologing was a little heavy-handed, but I guess he would be the type to be heavy handed) were wiped out with that fantastic exit. Having the set look so far away as he walked away to a bar worked perfectly with the music.

    (Also, a friend pointed out that when Don runs into Peggy in the movie theater, she's in the same pose as the opening credits silhouette.)

    RhalloTonny on
    !
  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    Behemoth wrote: »
    I agree that this would have been a good finale. These last couple episodes have been a little week, but man the ending of this one was pitch-perfect. Walking away from the set and then into the bar. Ordering an Old Fashioned. Just perfect.

    But I'm interested to see where it goes next year. Is next season the last one or are there 2 more?

    2 more seasons. Probably up to '69 or '70. We could conceivably see Don take a dive out the window as we see the '69 launch to the moon.

  • JDoobsJDoobs Registered User
    What really sold me on the finale was Don's look right at the end. Is there anything more quintessential Don then that look? It felt like so long since we've seen it.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    -- Rising From The Ashes --
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