Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[HBO] Game of Thrones S2 on Sunday; spoilers abound, no tags; NO BOOKS

19293959798101

Posts

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited May 2012

    Neli wrote: »
    Shit, to use an example brought up earlier, look at Rome. Season 1 is great because Vorenus and Pullo beautiful tie into the main Caesar plot. By Season 2 though, it's obvious they don't know wtf to do with the characters but they just hang around randomly anyway and the show suffers greatly for it.

    This isn't what happened, though. The production of the show was a clusterfuck for season 2. They had originally planned to do more seasons but due to budget issues they had to cram all of that into season 2 because suddenly they weren't getting a season 3 and so on. It was a mess and that's why it didn't hold up to S1

    HBO has been kicking itself for shortchanging Rome ever since, considering the show's popularity (and DVD profitablity). Of course, the failure of Rome is why HBO is so heavily backing GoT, so maybe everything worked out for the best...

    Though when I think about it, if they had gone all-in on Rome and it made a ton of money, we might've gotten Game of Thrones sooner.

    Which would have made it even more likely that the show would overtake the books.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Cadmus wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    You need incredible amounts of selection bias to make that picture true.

    I don't think you can apply to shows that don't follow a serialized linear narrative, for sure, like The Simpsons or Law & Order.

    But I'm struggling to recall a serialized narrative program that went more than a half-dozen seasons before collapsing like cardboard folding table. It's just the nature of the beast.

    GoT should be seven seasons but the 3rd is too long so they are breaking it into 2. I really hope that causes it to be an exception :/

    Book 3 really is ridiculously long (it was broken into 2 books in many countries), but books 4 and 5 will probably be melded together into 2 seasons between the 2 books. Who the hell knows about the last 2 books, but for now it's looking like 8 seasons.
    Neli wrote: »
    Shit, to use an example brought up earlier, look at Rome. Season 1 is great because Vorenus and Pullo beautiful tie into the main Caesar plot. By Season 2 though, it's obvious they don't know wtf to do with the characters but they just hang around randomly anyway and the show suffers greatly for it.

    This isn't what happened, though. The production of the show was a clusterfuck for season 2. They had originally planned to do more seasons but due to budget issues they had to cram all of that into season 2 because suddenly they weren't getting a season 3 and so on. It was a mess and that's why it didn't hold up to S1

    HBO has been kicking itself for shortchanging Rome ever since, considering the show's popularity (and DVD profitablity). Of course, the failure of Rome is why HBO is so heavily backing GoT, so maybe everything worked out for the best...

    Though when I think about it, if they had gone all-in on Rome and it made a ton of money, we might've gotten Game of Thrones sooner.

    Which would have made it even more likely that the show would overtake the books.

    What books?
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    In my opinion, if the show goes faster than the novels, Martin will probably provide outlines for how it was going to go and they'll finish the series based on that in eight or nine seasons in total. Where at the start of the show, people watching the show worried about book spoilers, there may come a time when book readers worry about show spoilers. That'll be hilarious.

    Dinosaurs were made up by the CIA to discourage time travel.
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    He already has, one of the things the showrunners asked of Martin was that he basically told them what his general future direction with the entire series was. So the showrunners should be privy to the basic jist of his ideas if they want to overtake the books

    Zzulu on
    t5qfc9.jpg
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    So I'm guessing someone has already put this theory forward. Is there any possibility that the guy that is surrendering to Robb is setting up a trap for him? I ask because of the quasi mysterious letters to Tywin and Tywin mustering up his troops.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    Have you read the books?

    Still no?

    Does the length of the story have any goddamn relevance to the plot structure?

    No?

    So do you really have any idea what you're talking about?

    Nope!

    Kana on
    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    Have you read the books?

    Still no?

    Does the length of the story have any goddamn relevance to the plot structure?

    No?

    So do you really have any idea what you're talking about?

    Nope!

    Quit being a neckbeard. I wasn't even talking to you.

  • DomhnallDomhnall Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    GRRM knows the end of the story and the major beats. He had writer's block regarding a specific area and how best to move the characters around that area and how best to convey what was happening (different POVs, etc.)

    Domhnall on
    Xbox Live - Minty D Vision
    Steam - Minty D. Vision!
    Origin/BF3 - MintyDVision
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Does the length of the story have any relevance to the plot structure?

    That's not being a neckbeard Ross, that's called not combining pedantry and ignorance. Look into it sometime.

    And actually you were talking to me, that's why I'm in your quote tree

    8->

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited May 2012
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    So... TV show?

    TV show. Yeah.

    You know who I miss in Robb's storyline this season? The Greatjon. Who will cut Robb's meat if not he?

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    Oh, I totally agree.

    I was just lamenting any case where an author sets a distant endpoint for their story, and then has trouble figuring out how to get there. I'm not saying Martin has done that, because honestly no one can know that at this point. But the writer's block can't be a good omen.

  • rizriz Registered User regular
    Iron price iron price iron price: Being a weenus defeated vassal who only gets ambitious once Ned Stark dies and Robb Stark heads south with his army shouldn't make you much of a king. Maybe a king by way of technicality. But these Greyjoys are just seriously unimpressive. Here's to that whole faction getting theirs, especially after the revelation that Theon is a child murderer.

    Yeah, the show seems to be going to great lengths to make it clear that Theon is being guilt tripped and peer pressured into his actions since returning to Pyke, but he's still choosing to do those things. Whether he's killed Bran and Rickon for escaping or killed the two random farm boys for being in the wrong place at the wrong time because Theon needs to save face, he's still a giant bag of dicks, and none of the "make us sympathize with Theon" scenes will make this okay. So I almost wish they hadn't bothered and just went with "Theon is a traitorous giant bag of dicks with or without his father's/sister's/first mate's influence" to begin with.

    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    Got a bit of a confirmation bias here, though. Most authors don't sell enough to warrant getting huge multi-book deals where they can build up to that sort of climax. The ones who do are the ones who have a following and yaddah yaddah.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    Oh, I totally agree.

    I was just lamenting any case where an author sets a distant endpoint for their story, and then has trouble figuring out how to get there. I'm not saying Martin has done that, because honestly no one can know that at this point. But the writer's block can't be a good omen.

    I honestly think that the issue won't be a problem going forward. As mentioned, it was related to one very specific character and narrative problem with the story.

    Which we do not talk about here, but would be glad to discuss in the spoilertastic book thread.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    Got a bit of a confirmation bias here, though. Most authors don't sell enough to warrant getting huge multi-book deals where they can build up to that sort of climax. The ones who do are the ones who have a following and yaddah yaddah.

    Or, vice versa, especially with YA books, where the publisher sets the number of books in a series and has a ghostwriting team just pad everything out to sell more copies.

  • AtomikaAtomika Brought to you by Technicolor™ Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    Because normal fiction writers never have any issues with act transitions.

    Normal fiction writers don't take seven books and 5,000 pages to get to the climax.

    To be fair, a lot of the ones who do generally have the support of their publisher, and legions of fans.

    See: GRRM, Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, Erikson, etc.

    Nothing wrong with the long single narrative so long as there are things to grab your attention along the way.

    Oh, I totally agree.

    I was just lamenting any case where an author sets a distant endpoint for their story, and then has trouble figuring out how to get there. I'm not saying Martin has done that, because honestly no one can know that at this point. But the writer's block can't be a good omen.

    I honestly think that the issue won't be a problem going forward. As mentioned, it was related to one very specific character and narrative problem with the story.

    Which we do not talk about here, but would be glad to discuss in the spoilertastic book thread.

    Agreed. And don't worry, I'm not going to the spoiler thread. I like being kept in the dark.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Neli wrote: »
    Shit, to use an example brought up earlier, look at Rome. Season 1 is great because Vorenus and Pullo beautiful tie into the main Caesar plot. By Season 2 though, it's obvious they don't know wtf to do with the characters but they just hang around randomly anyway and the show suffers greatly for it.

    This isn't what happened, though. The production of the show was a clusterfuck for season 2. They had originally planned to do more seasons but due to budget issues they had to cram all of that into season 2 because suddenly they weren't getting a season 3 and so on. It was a mess and that's why it didn't hold up to S1

    The production of S2 being a clusterfuck was only part of the problem.

    The biggest issue is that, after the end of S1, nothing Vorenus or Pullo does actually means anything. They worked in S1 because they provided a "boots on the ground" look at events while also deftly being tied in to the main plot (with all the established bits of their characters climaxing in such a way that they really mattered to the assassination of Caesar). In S2 ... they had no purpose. And it showed. Cause suddenly they are running around doing random shit that isn't relevant to anything.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    But seriously, such a situation MAY have convinced George R.R. Martin to resolve his writer's block sooner.

    I find it a bit worrisome that someone could idealize a narrative without having also idealized a way to wrap it up. But lord knows, it happens a lot. Look at that poor Rowling woman.

    It all kinda rolls into my complaint of a lot of fantasy (or "insert genre here," really) actually just being "lolfantasy," concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative.

    I have no idea what you are even trying to say here. Like, you aren't even advancing a coherent argument beyond "I dislike genre ... because".

    Having a start, a destination and an idea of the major beats along the way and then filling the rest in as you go is the way most writers write from any discussions/interviews/etc I've ever seen.

    And I've got no clue what you think this has to do with being "concerned more with playing in the sandbox than telling a satisfying narrative".

  • THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY im alucard Registered User regular
    I still think it'd be amazing if, when the show hits a wall due to not having more books to adapt, they start making prequel seasons based around Rhaegar, young Nedd, Robert, etc.

    3715dce84e531295d5cf9e9c7b7c0b5c.png
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    I still think it'd be amazing if, when the show hits a wall due to not having more books to adapt, they start making prequel seasons based around Rhaegar, young Nedd, Robert, etc.

    Cough.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    I still think it'd be amazing if, when the show hits a wall due to not having more books to adapt, they start making prequel seasons based around Rhaegar, young Nedd, Robert, etc.

    Cough.

    The Dunk and Egg stories would make for great miniseries or TV movies IMO. I'd probably send HBO love letters if we got something like a new Game of Thrones season every April, and a new Dunk and Egg four part series every November, finishing on the American Thanksgiving weekend. Since virtually none of the characters overlap due to the time difference of almost a century, you wouldn't need to use any of the normal cast except MAYBE in cameos as their ancestors - it'd be hilarious to see Maisie Williams in a cameo appearance as Arya's great grandmother or something, with a completely different personality than Arya. And while you wouldn't use the normal cast, you could potentially re-use some of the normal sets, which would cut down a little on production costs.

    Dinosaurs were made up by the CIA to discourage time travel.
  • Form of Monkey!Form of Monkey! Registered User regular
    riz wrote: »
    Iron price iron price iron price: Being a weenus defeated vassal who only gets ambitious once Ned Stark dies and Robb Stark heads south with his army shouldn't make you much of a king. Maybe a king by way of technicality. But these Greyjoys are just seriously unimpressive. Here's to that whole faction getting theirs, especially after the revelation that Theon is a child murderer.

    Yeah, the show seems to be going to great lengths to make it clear that Theon is being guilt tripped and peer pressured into his actions since returning to Pyke, but he's still choosing to do those things. Whether he's killed Bran and Rickon for escaping or killed the two random farm boys for being in the wrong place at the wrong time because Theon needs to save face, he's still a giant bag of dicks, and none of the "make us sympathize with Theon" scenes will make this okay. So I almost wish they hadn't bothered and just went with "Theon is a traitorous giant bag of dicks with or without his father's/sister's/first mate's influence" to begin with.

    The Greyjoys are basically just a family of Biff Tannens. It seems heavily implied that their waterlogged empire was forged by giving wedgies and swirlies to defenseless fishermen, not through battle. And the last time they tried the battle route, the Greyjoys got they ass royally beat and Theon was lost to the Starks.

    So bullying: You honed in on that too, with the first mate? Theon keeps looking at that first mate guy for reassurance on the point, like "This guy is defenseless. I should kill him, right? I mean that's what we do? This other guy, he's not expecting this sucker punch. I should punch him then, right?" The first mate seems to represent Authentic Greyjoy Values or the collective opinion that Theon's people have of him or something like this, but it's all just noise at this point.

    I get that he has prodigal son daddy issues, but he became impossible to root for after the kid corpses scene. Kind of just rooting for Theon to die at the hands of the men Robb sent to retake Winterfell.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    I still think it'd be amazing if, when the show hits a wall due to not having more books to adapt, they start making prequel seasons based around Rhaegar, young Nedd, Robert, etc.

    Cough.

    The Dunk and Egg stories would make for great miniseries or TV movies IMO. I'd probably send HBO love letters if we got something like a new Game of Thrones season every April, and a new Dunk and Egg four part series every November, finishing on the American Thanksgiving weekend. Since virtually none of the characters overlap due to the time difference of almost a century, you wouldn't need to use any of the normal cast except MAYBE in cameos as their ancestors - it'd be hilarious to see Maisie Williams in a cameo appearance as Arya's great grandmother or something, with a completely different personality than Arya. And while you wouldn't use the normal cast, you could potentially re-use some of the normal sets, which would cut down a little on production costs.

    Not really spoiler, since it was in the show but...
    Master Aemon is Egg's brother and, from his dialogue on the TV, they've condensed the generations to make Egg the father (not grandfather) of the Mad King. That'll allow for a lot more character overlap if they ever decide to do a Dunk and Egg series.

  • Boring7Boring7 Registered User regular
    riz wrote: »
    Iron price iron price iron price: Being a weenus defeated vassal who only gets ambitious once Ned Stark dies and Robb Stark heads south with his army shouldn't make you much of a king. Maybe a king by way of technicality. But these Greyjoys are just seriously unimpressive. Here's to that whole faction getting theirs, especially after the revelation that Theon is a child murderer.

    Yeah, the show seems to be going to great lengths to make it clear that Theon is being guilt tripped and peer pressured into his actions since returning to Pyke, but he's still choosing to do those things. Whether he's killed Bran and Rickon for escaping or killed the two random farm boys for being in the wrong place at the wrong time because Theon needs to save face, he's still a giant bag of dicks, and none of the "make us sympathize with Theon" scenes will make this okay. So I almost wish they hadn't bothered and just went with "Theon is a traitorous giant bag of dicks with or without his father's/sister's/first mate's influence" to begin with.

    The Greyjoys are basically just a family of Biff Tannens. It seems heavily implied that their waterlogged empire was forged by giving wedgies and swirlies to defenseless fishermen, not through battle. And the last time they tried the battle route, the Greyjoys got they ass royally beat and Theon was lost to the Starks.

    So bullying: You honed in on that too, with the first mate? Theon keeps looking at that first mate guy for reassurance on the point, like "This guy is defenseless. I should kill him, right? I mean that's what we do? This other guy, he's not expecting this sucker punch. I should punch him then, right?" The first mate seems to represent Authentic Greyjoy Values or the collective opinion that Theon's people have of him or something like this, but it's all just noise at this point.

    I get that he has prodigal son daddy issues, but he became impossible to root for after the kid corpses scene. Kind of just rooting for Theon to die at the hands of the men Robb sent to retake Winterfell.

    Pretty much. The Greyjoy family ethos (and thus that of their men) is "We Do Not Sow." As in, "farming, fishing, and otherwise being self-sustaining and non-parasites is for pussies and weaklings that we feed off of." Starks tried to teach him something better, but it didn't take.

    Thanatos wrote: »
    Goldman Sachs may as well be named COBRA.
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I get that he has prodigal son daddy issues, but he became impossible to root for after the kid corpses scene. Kind of just rooting for Theon to die at the hands of the men Robb sent to retake Winterfell.

    Taking into consideration what other characters (still living) have done, I still find Theon somewhat sympathetic. He's obviously entered "villain" territory, but I still find him to be a tragic figure. Granted I might just be a sucker for Allen's acting and the fact that he is able to convey that his character is uncomfortable with the decisions he is making.

    Egos on
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    It's not as if I'm rooting for Theon

    But I'm very much enjoying his story arc

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • HamurabiHamurabi AmsterdamRegistered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    It's not as if I'm rooting for Theon

    But I'm very much enjoying his story arc

    You disgust me!



    I like Theon too.

  • THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY im alucard Registered User regular
    THESPOOKY wrote: »
    I still think it'd be amazing if, when the show hits a wall due to not having more books to adapt, they start making prequel seasons based around Rhaegar, young Nedd, Robert, etc.

    Cough.

    Shit, I really need to...write a book like this...since they don't exist....and read it. I keep forgetting they even exist. Which they don't.

    Cough indeed.

    3715dce84e531295d5cf9e9c7b7c0b5c.png
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    The Dunk & Egg short stories, as prequels, contain no spoilers whatsoever for the Game of Thrones story - I thought I should mention that in case TV watchers are interested in them but nervous of even looking them up.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Cobalt60Cobalt60 Registered User regular
    You could read the Dunk and Egg stories without ever hearing about a Song of Ice and Fire and have little idea there is a massive series of books it is based on.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    You need incredible amounts of selection bias to make that picture true.

    I don't think you can apply to shows that don't follow a serialized linear narrative, for sure, like The Simpsons or Law & Order.

    But I'm struggling to recall a serialized narrative program that went more than a half-dozen seasons before collapsing like cardboard folding table. It's just the nature of the beast.

    Well, DS9 kind of counted. Heck, the graphic could be said to be about TNG and DS9.

  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    You need incredible amounts of selection bias to make that picture true.

    I don't think you can apply to shows that don't follow a serialized linear narrative, for sure, like The Simpsons or Law & Order.

    But I'm struggling to recall a serialized narrative program that went more than a half-dozen seasons before collapsing like cardboard folding table. It's just the nature of the beast.

    Well, DS9 kind of counted. Heck, the graphic could be said to be about TNG and DS9.

    That graphic works for a few big-name series and that's about it. For a start it ignores anything that became awful during the third or second season and never got a fourth. Or was cancelled after a single season despite being great. Or or or or...

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • AntithesisAntithesis Registered User regular
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    You could read the Dunk and Egg stories without ever hearing about a Song of Ice and Fire and have little idea there is a massive series of books it is based on.

    Though mind, I got towards the end of the Wikipedia entry and backed out when it started talking about times those stories are mentioned during events. Ahem.

  • spamfilterspamfilter Registered User regular
    Not really a spoiler but background information on what the 7 kingdoms are.

    The seven kingdoms are The North, the Vale, The Rock, the Stormlands, the Reach, the Iron Isles and Riverlands, and Dorne.

    Iron Isles and Riverlands were ruled by Harren the Black (of Harrenhal fame), and when Aegon killed him and all his sons, he divided the Kingdom into 2 and gave it to House Tully and House Greyjoy. Same thing with the Reach, they were ruled by House Gardner until his and his heirs were killed by Aegon in battle and Aegon gave the Lordship to House Tyrell.

    That's why in the Westeros hierachy, of the Great Houses, the Tullys, Tyrells, and Greyjoys are considered the less prestigious "upstarts" while Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Martel are considers elite, because those 5 houses can trace their lineage as kings of their realm for thousands of years.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    got___otp_by_eeba_ism-d4zoto9.jpg

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • BuchoBucho One careful pwner Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    815165 wrote: »
    The real plot is how fucking awesome Bronn is, everything else is irrelevant.

    Every time he opens his mouth or swings his sword he's the MVP for me too. I love the Lannisters. I love Bronn even more.

    Talka wrote: »
    I haven't always agreed with Ross, but it's completely reasonable to point out that Jon's and Dany's stories have been disconnected from the main plot. When was the last time another main character was affected by anything Jon or Dany did? Real question. I think it was when Tyrion and Cersei got a letter from the wall in episode 3, and last season when Ned objected to Dany's assassination.

    I'm not saying those segments are bad, or even unnecessary. They just feel disconnected. Just because they're clearly going to be important in the future doesn't mean they're relevant to the main plot now.

    I'm with you and Ross on the disconnectedness of Jon and Dany, but for me that isn't the main problem. Dany's story was pretty much disconnected in the first season too, but a fantastic story was woven from her character and her situation. In season two however her story feels flat and her character feels frustratingly immature. And it's not that her naivete and lack of competence aren't understandable (she's just a kid after all) it's that they feel frustrating and they make it difficult to like or root for her. My hope it that this present storyline which is driven somewhat by her current immaturity pays off with her new arc being that she learns from her mistakes and gets a whole lot smarter as a leader.

    Jon's story was good when he was with the Watch but since he hooked up with Ygritte it's felt kind of flat. It's obvious what they're swinging for but they're just not hitting it. I still root for him, but it's not much fun watching his story lately. Except that Iceland is amazing to look at.

    Shadowhope wrote: »
    On one end of the world there are undead ice creatures. On the other end, there are dragons. Everyone in the Seven Kingdoms is currently oblivious to both threats. In my opinion, the plots are being laid out now so that when Jon and Dany enter the main storyline again, people won't be like "WTF, dragons? Really? And undead ice monsters? Show has totally jumped the shark."

    Absolutely. The fact their stories are playing out on the fringes is very likely healthy for the Uberarc of the whole story. What they need is for their stories to play out in a more interesting fashion. In service to the (non-existent) books maybe they have to play out like this, but that doesn't mean they're working as a TV show.

    "That's how it happens in the books" is always an essentially meaningless defence of any adaptation. If you transfer a weakness from one media to another it's still a weakness.

    Bucho on
This discussion has been closed.