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[A Song of Ice and Fire, Books and Books+Show] Touch this thread and all shall be spoilt

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I thought it was revealed, too, but then I remembered that the Joffrey related revelation that Tyrion has on the show is about who ordered the deaths of Robert's bastards.

    reVerse on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Tamin wrote: »
    Well, I don't like Jaime because ... he tried to murder the same child twice.

    teehee
    I keep forgetting that this information doesn't come until much later. It's hard not correcting people in person because I seem to have convinced myself that it was already revealed in the show.

    And even then, it's easy enough to miss. There's never any neon flash of exposition outright saying whodunit.

    Tamin on
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    Well, I don't like Jaime because ... he tried to murder the same child twice.

    teehee
    I keep forgetting that this information doesn't come until much later. It's hard not correcting people in person because I seem to have convinced myself that it was already revealed in the show.

    I've had a really hard time not commenting in the show thread the last couple of days. Quite a lot of assumptions are being made that are not... right. On this one, though, there's really no evidence at all that Jaime was involved the second time and I don't think he (on the show) has the personality to hire someone else to do it.

    But I can't say that over there.

  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Well, I don't like Jaime because ... he tried to murder the same child twice.

    teehee
    I keep forgetting that this information doesn't come until much later. It's hard not correcting people in person because I seem to have convinced myself that it was already revealed in the show.

    I've had a really hard time not commenting in the show thread the last couple of days. Quite a lot of assumptions are being made that are not... right. On this one, though, there's really no evidence at all that Jaime was involved the second time and I don't think he (on the show) has the personality to hire someone else to do it.

    But I can't say that over there.

    I laughed out loud at some new guy basically saying exactly the thing that drives everyone crazy in that thread, "I CANT WAIT TO SEE ALL YOUR REACTIONS TO SEASON 3 ENDING!". I thought the thread would go nuclear but it was mostly ignored. The next step is for someone to just pass through and go MAJOR SPOILER
    "Robb Stark is murdered at his own wedding, TEE HEE HEE"
    and we'll witness the fallout.

    You're really playing with fire if you just don't buckle down and read the books, I don't think the TV series would be nearly as much fun to watch without the prior knowledge. I have to pause the show 40 times an episode just to explain stuff to my wife, but she's the type who wants to know EVERYTHING that's going to happen beforehand so there's no surprises.

  • SmoogySmoogy Registered User regular
    People were commenting earlier on the fact that waiting 5, then 6 years has no effect on the quality of the book. I agree.

    However, after waiting for such a long time, it was disappointing to find out that what we waited for were not as good as the first 3 books. I'm not saying AFFC and ADWD are bad books; they are just not what I expected and the fact that we waited so long certainly doesn't help. If we had waited 5 years and got another ASoS, I wouldn't even care about the wait.

    Neil Gaiman is right; GRRM is not our bitch. He doesn't have to write the book I want and I certainly wouldn't expect him to. What would be the fun in reading something where I know what's going to happen? What I would have liked is not to introduce pretty ridiculous plot points 5 books into a series that came COMPLETELY out of nowhere. It's like when you're reading The Wheel of Time and
    the Forsaken come back - but this time they switch genders! Yeah that makes sense...
    Stuff like that completely takes you (or just me, since some of you seem to really defend 4 and 5) increasingly out of the story as nothing is moving towards a resolution. Or maybe moving glacier-like is more apt.

    I'm hoping the next book rights the ship. The books are still written superbly well and are still great fun, I just feel like both could have been just one book and lots of fluff should have been eliminated. More is not always better and being verbose is usually not something a writer/author wants to be known for.

    Smoogy-1689
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  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I don't care so much about waiting. I read the first 5 books in a few months. I'm reading other things now. I'm not going to get myself too wrapped up in what GRRM is doing right now or convincing myself that he owes me another book soon. However, it is a practical fact that the longer the wait, the less I remember or care about the story. King's Dark Tower series was like my favorite IP in the world at one point. It ended on a major cliffhanger. When he got around to writing the next book 467 years later, I could scarcely remember a single thing about the series and had no interest in either re-reading it or trying to finish it without re-reading it. I don't doubt that many people take a very different approach, but that is a practical effect nevertheless among many readers who wait too long for a sequel.

    Most of what Gaiman said I disagree with.

    Have your cake and eat it too. GRRM can blog and tweet and tease his next book all he wants, because that's "marketing" you know, it's part of "business" and "maintaining your fan base" and PR and all that. But when people get antsy for the marketed product to be available, HOLD UP THERE NERD, GRRM is not your bitch, he's an artist, you are a common talentless consumer. The book will be done when the Muses are done imparting their divine inspiration, and your petty desire to pay money for a product is only defiling this sacred creative process.

    Sorry, I call bullshit on all that. All the arguments about "I want a good book, not a fast book" or "it's his story he can do what he wants" are easy enough to agree with but are fairly empty cliches. In my opinion, they don't quite have the meat to them like an argument that says, "I paid retail hardcover price for all your books, including the last two that left me rather disappointed as to any continuation of the story." That's a valid point. Sorry fanboys, it is. I don't agree that you can stretch it to then mean that GRRM categorically owes you anything. But it's a valid point nevertheless.

    As for the books themselves, I don't expect anyone to "win" this argument, but I feel like I explained in pretty clear detail why I think the last two books (and Book 2 to a lesser extent) meandered without progressing the story or even re-energizing any central theme to the work after the Red Wedding was done. And the responses have all been "you just don't get it."

    This isn't all that complicated or specific to writing or to art. GRRM established a relationship to a fanbase, and then he strained that relationship considerably and at least appeared in some fashion to be exploiting it. He has every right to be a dick about that, tell everyone to shove off. Some artists in his position get so grumpy about fan expectations (not grumpy about millions of dollars, mind you) that they purposefully train wreck the IP just to prove that they can, and to teach their fans a lesson. He can certainly do even that if he wants. Or, he can work tirelessly to give his fans more of what they want, strive to make as many of them as happy as he reasonably can, as soon as he can. One of those things is clearly more ethical and admirable than the other, even if neither is any absolute moral or contractual requirement.

    An author who tries to make the point that it's his story and he can do what he likes and write it when and how he wants is, IMO, in the same boat as the kid who says it's his ball and he's taking it and going home. They're both correct, perhaps they've even both got legimitacy on their side under certain circumstances. But more or less they're both being dicks. It doesn't hurt to humble one's self, and proclaim that you are working as rapidly as you can to deliver the best story you can, and acknowledge that many fans feel the story has wandered and that you hope to bring it all back together in a way that pleases as many as you can. Which, by the way, isn't too far from what GRRM is doing, so I personally don't have too much of a beef with him there.

    tl;dr: most of this debate seems to be yet another way for fanboys to argue that objectively you aren't allowed to have any negative opinion.

    Yar on
  • SmoogySmoogy Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Most people who read books 4 and 5 didn't like them as much as the first ones and felt disappointed. Don't worry Yar - these fanboys are the vocal minority.

    And if you question that, just look at Amazon ratings for the simplest comparison.

    Smoogy on
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  • juggerbotjuggerbot NebraskaRegistered User regular
    All the characters in ASOIAF seem to be doing what I do in nearly every RPG I've ever played: play the main story for a while to figure out what class I want to be, then run off into a corner and spend an inordinate amount of time grinding XP.

  • SmoogySmoogy Registered User regular
    juggerbot wrote: »
    All the characters in ASOIAF seem to be doing what I do in nearly every RPG I've ever played: play the main story for a while to figure out what class I want to be, then run off into a corner and spend an inordinate amount of time grinding XP.

    :^:

    Smoogy-1689
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    Smoogy wrote: »
    Most people who read books 4 and 5 didn't like them as much as the first ones and felt disappointed. Don't worry Yar - these fanboys are the vocal minority.

    And if you question that, just look at Amazon ratings for the simplest comparison.

    Indeed. I almost quit after Storm from reading the Crows reviews.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    juggerbot wrote: »
    All the characters in ASOIAF seem to be doing what I do in nearly every RPG I've ever played: play the main story for a while to figure out what class I want to be, then run off into a corner and spend an inordinate amount of time grinding XP.

    This is actually a good strategy. Arya's prestige class is incredibly broken at high levels. Dany's dragon rider class upgrade does give her a big advantage as well.

    I'm not sure about Catelyn's Revenant levels, though. I mean, yeah, awesome, but it kinda screws her over in the long run.

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Arya is totally chaotic evil.

  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Maybe its in the approach? I have thoroughly enjoyed all the books and I approach the series like as if every PoV is the main character and their story is the main story. What in effect this does for me when they are all jumbled together is make the world they exist in the main story, the world is much more than just this or that character's defeat or triumph.

    Here would be a fun thing to do some time, only read the PoV chapters of a single character throughout the entire series of books so far. I end up picturing it like its a comic book series with that character's name as the title and instead of "DC" or "Marvel" stamped on it, it has "A Song Of Ice And Fire". It really does seem like a place you could never stop coming up with new characters for to tell whatever story you wanted to. I haven't looked but I bet fan fiction short stories is having a hell of a time with this IP.

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is totally chaotic evil.

    I took her for Lawful Evil. She has an orderly approach to murder.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    She's Chaotic Good with a heavy emphasize on Chaotic with helping of Neutral. Or perhaps "Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies" as the darkest interpretation. But if you see her as Evil, like, look it up. She isn't.

    Xeddicus on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Maybe its in the approach? I have thoroughly enjoyed all the books and I approach the series like as if every PoV is the main character and their story is the main story. What in effect this does for me when they are all jumbled together is make the world they exist in the main story, the world is much more than just this or that character's defeat or triumph.

    Here would be a fun thing to do some time, only read the PoV chapters of a single character throughout the entire series of books so far. I end up picturing it like its a comic book series with that character's name as the title and instead of "DC" or "Marvel" stamped on it, it has "A Song Of Ice And Fire". It really does seem like a place you could never stop coming up with new characters for to tell whatever story you wanted to. I haven't looked but I bet fan fiction short stories is having a hell of a time with this IP.

    Your approach is very similar to mine. I've been saying for a while that Martin's history is in shared universes and anthologies. Wild Cards, Warriors, TV shows. It makes perfect sense that he would write a story without a strong, central, omnipresent narrator.

    I keep meaning to take one of the characters (Bran is my go-to), and read just his chapters; or have a friend read just those, and determine if there's enough meat there for a standalone story.

    Would work especially well with the audio-books, as you could arrange the files to ensure no contamination. The past few times I've looked up a specific scene, I've found myself 3 or 4 chapters further along before I can pull myself away.

    Tamin on
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is totally chaotic evil.

    I took her for Lawful Evil. She has an orderly approach to murder.

    I have her trending chaotic neutral with her training under the Faceless

  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude Mean Mister Mustard Registered User regular
    Didn't they publish a novella that was basically just the Dany chapters from Game of Thrones?

    Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Didn't they publish a novella that was basically just the Dany chapters from Game of Thrones?

    Yeah, but (as has been pointed out) Dany's chapters are very disconnected from the rest.

    Said novella actually won awards, if I recall.

    edit: Yeah, "Blood of the Dragon" won a Hugo. Looks like he also pulled together "Path of the Dragon" (Dany, published in Asmiov's Science Fiction) and "Arms of the Kraken" (Iron Islands, published in Dragon magazine).

    The wiki entries are unclear if they are just the chapters as presented in the native book (AGOT, ASOS and AFFC, respectively), sans chapter separators, or if they are modified versions.

    Tamin on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Stuff

    tl;dr: most of this debate seems to be yet another way for fanboys to argue that objectively you aren't allowed to have any negative opinion.

    The problem with your argument is that it hinges on this idea that certain books were objectively bad when, in no way, were they. You say the plot wasn't progressing but I strongly disagree with that. What I don't get is how some people think the plot isn't moving along if nobody dies. There is so much excellent story telling going on in every book- even if it's not always focused on your favorite characters. I just cannot understand how some people get angry at that.

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Arya is evil. She kills rather indiscriminately for selfish and personal reasons. Give her a throne and she'd be Joff in a heartbeat.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I still think book 5 was some of the best writing GRRM's ever done. But I've pretty much given up on arguing over it, because then I never stop

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is evil. She kills rather indiscriminately for selfish and personal reasons. Give her a throne and she'd be Joff in a heartbeat.

    Personal reasons don't make her evil. Selfish kills were? I forget why the coin guy in the book was killed, though, so someone remind me. Otherwise, she hasn't killed anyone just to make her life better or anything...

    Xeddicus on
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Philosopher King The AcademyRegistered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is evil. She kills rather indiscriminately for selfish and personal reasons. Give her a throne and she'd be Joff in a heartbeat.

    You must be reading different books that I am. Sure, her motivation in a lot of cases is personal. I mean, she kills people who have done horrible things to her and others. But she doesn't kill indiscriminately. Like, she kills random people all the time? She kills bad people who do bad things, and her motivation could do work. But there are miles of difference between her and Joffrey.

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is evil. She kills rather indiscriminately for selfish and personal reasons. Give her a throne and she'd be Joff in a heartbeat.

    Personal reasons don't make her evil. Selfish kills were? I forget why the coin guy in the book was killed, though, so someone remind me. Otherwise, she hasn't killed anyone just to make her life better or anything...

    "coin guy" ... uh .. book 5? She was ordered to kill him. Otherwise, not sure who you're referring to.

    She didn't personally kill anyone during her stay at Harrenhal, but she ordered the deaths of people who were making her life worse; and, of course, to rescue the northerners. And then she murdered the guard so she could escape.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Ending someones life doesn't make you evil by default. And yeah, book 5. Why did someone want that guy dead? But as LoserForHireX said, you're reading more in the books than there is or you have the stance killing is always murder which is hard to justify in reality, much less the shit hole these books take place in.

    Xeddicus on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    I still think book 5 was some of the best writing GRRM's ever done. But I've pretty much given up on arguing over it, because then I never stop

    Daenerys aside, I'd agree. Daenerys's chapters were... not good, especially knowing that they were what were holding up the book's release.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Yeah, I wonder what the knot was. I heard getting people there, but hell "They sailed.". There, they are there.

  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Yeah, I wonder what the knot was. I heard getting people there, but hell "They sailed.". There, they are there.

    My guess was that Martell was really complicating things, and finally Martin was like FUCK IT LET'S DEAL WITH IT THIS WAY and then had to fix the stuff that followed that.

  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    I still think book 5 was some of the best writing GRRM's ever done. But I've pretty much given up on arguing over it, because then I never stop

    I'm a detractor of books 4 and 5, but 5 definitely has some of his best writing. The theon chapters are amazing, and up until halfway through 5 I thought it could be the best of the ASOIAF books.

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Arya is a powerful, likeable character with whom the reader is given much reason to sympathize and root for.

    That I definitely agree with. But don't confuse that with an objective view of her actions (which admittedly are debateable).

    Tell the same story, except without as much background on her, and without PoV for her, and you've got an obsessed irrational killer.

    She's killed a lot of people, including a Northern Guard just so she could slip past him without having to reveal who she was, a member of the Night's Watch because he had sex, a moneylender because somone thought he cheated them, and couple of boys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and barely touched her, and some others likely more deserving.

    She didn't even kill the Hound. She left him to suffer what she hoped would be a slow, cruel death. That, even after basically acknowledging to herself that he had made a good case for why he was not nearly so bad as she thought. And had been her supportive and protective travelling partner for some time, who was trying his best to get her back to her family. None of that mattered. She considered it all, and was like, "but he killed my peasant boy-toy." Never mind that if her sister had told the truth, it might not have resulted in that. Or if Arya herself had been smart enough not to be sword-fighting with a peasant if she valued his life. Or that the boy faced death or perhaps even worse at anyone else's hands, had the Hound not been ordered to do it.

    GRRM pretty much told us as much when the old oracle crone screeched at Arya to get her evil monster demon ass out of their camp.

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Arya is a powerful, likeable character with whom the reader is given much reason to sympathize and root for.

    That I definitely agree with. But don't confuse that with an objective view of her actions (which admittedly are debateable).

    Tell the same story, except without as much background on her, and without PoV for her, and you've got an obsessed irrational killer.

    She's killed a lot of people, including a Northern Guard just so she could slip past him without having to reveal who she was, a member of the Night's Watch because he had sex, a moneylender because somone thought he cheated them, and couple of boys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and barely touched her, and some others likely more deserving.

    She didn't even kill the Hound. She left him to suffer what she hoped would be a slow, cruel death. That, even after basically acknowledging to herself that he had made a good case for why he was not nearly so bad as she thought. And had been her supportive and protective travelling partner for some time, who was trying his best to get her back to her family. None of that mattered. She considered it all, and was like, "but he killed my peasant boy-toy." Never mind that if her sister had told the truth, it might not have resulted in that. Or if Arya herself had been smart enough not to be sword-fighting with a peasant if she valued his life. Or that the boy faced death or perhaps even worse at anyone else's hands, had the Hound not been ordered to do it.

    GRRM pretty much told us as much when the old oracle crone screeched at Arya to get her evil monster demon ass out of their camp.

    I agree up to a point, but hating the Hound? Killing Mycah had nothing to do with Sansa telling the truth. Arya disappears for four days after throwing the sword in the river. Presumably, so does Mycah, as the Hound returns from looking for Arya with Mycah's body.

    If the Hound hadn't found Mycah, it seems unlikely he would have faced death or worse - it was still peacetime, and if he were passable at butchery, he could find work and lodging in a town.

  • SmoogySmoogy Registered User regular
    valiance wrote: »

    I'm a detractor of books 4 and 5, but 5 definitely has some of his best writing. The theon chapters are amazing, and up until halfway through 5 I thought it could be the best of the ASOIAF books.

    Good writing, yes. Good story-telling, no.

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  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Yeah, it's very debateable. A lot of it is me going along with what I think GRRM wants to tell me. In other words, I really like what GRRM does with the Hound. Over the course of a couple books he really makes the strong case that the guy is scarred but brave, angry but kind, cynical but honorable, and even innocent in the eyes of the Gods themselves. And after depending on him for some time for survival and a trip home, she won't even give him a mercy killing. Even if you give Arya full support on her list of people she wants to kill... do you still support her decision not to kill when the option to let him suffer a slow death instead came up?

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    Yar wrote: »
    Yeah, it's very debateable. A lot of it is me going along with what I think GRRM wants to tell me. In other words, I really like what GRRM does with the Hound. Over the course of a couple books he really makes the strong case that the guy is scarred but brave, angry but kind, cynical but honorable, and even innocent in the eyes of the Gods themselves. And after depending on him for some time for survival and a trip home, she won't even give him a mercy killing. Even if you give Arya full support on her list of people she wants to kill... do you still support her decision not to kill when the option to let him suffer a slow death instead came up?

    From a character perspective? No, I don't support that decision; she should have given him mercy.

    The problem, is that there is the story to consider: there's a fairly strong theory that Sandor is alive and living with monks.

  • LibrarianLibrarian The face of liberal fascism Registered User regular
    So I got this little snippet of speculation from westeros.org:

    In book 5, has anyone else noticed that the red paste Bran is fed by the Children of the Forest to give him his vision in his last chapter of the book, might be made of Jojen Reed?

    Basically their argumentation is that Jojen always mentions that he knows when he will die, then his mood gets more and more depressed and he gets weaker and weaker has they make their way travelling with Coldhands to the cave of the Children of the Forest.
    There he recovers(this is interpretated by some people as sign of a full sacrifice, since he is no longer in a weakened state).
    In the last Bran chapter he is apparently not mentioned, but Meera is shown being distressed. Bran is then fed a red paste made out of weirwood seeds. After that Bran has his powerful vision - but Jojen was a Greenseer as well.

    Since cannibalism is a prominent theme in book 5(Frey pie, Bran eating human flesh when worging as Summer, Coldhands supplying the kids with "pork" probably made from dead rangers) it wouldn't really be so far off, but unlike the Frey pie this is nothing I ever suspected or thought of while reading the books. It has been a while, so I am really not sure if the signs are as strong as the people discussing the books on westeros.org make them out to be.

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Unlikely, as it isn't red paste; it's white, with red veins.

    The last Bran chapter, as near as I can tell, covers many days. Possibly even months. Jojen is mentioned many times, and talks a bit.

    Jojen isn't a greenseer; in his own words
    "No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.

    Tamin on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    From a character perspective? No, I don't support that decision; she should have given him mercy.

    The problem, is that there is the story to consider: there's a fairly strong theory that Sandor is alive and living with monks.

    Yep. But again, it seems that GRRM took obvious care to tell us that the Hound was not so bad, but that Arya might be. So I don't think it was just a convenient way to get him to the church on time.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Sandor himself knows he's a piece of shit. Why doubt the source? He's not a total monster like Joff, but that's a pretty low bar to meet.

  • BehemothBehemoth Compulsive Seashell Collector Registered User regular
    I would like to say that while the objective quality of the writing is debatable, I personally did not enjoy reading book 4 as much as any of the other books. It was a slog, and full of characters I didn't really care about. I put it down a couple times and came back to it weeks later because it was just so boring.

    But then I loved book 5 so whatever. It really pulled everything together and made all the setup in 4 make sense. I don't know how anyone can say that Dany is in the same situation at the end of 5 as she was at the beginning unless they're being deliberately reductive or don't actually remember what happens.
    She's not going to be welcomed back into the Khalasar with open arms. She's going to be taken to Vaes Dothrak to be with the other women whose husbands died. What's she going to do? She doesn't have her dragon, Drogon wasn't listening to her and he's miles away, Meereen is nowhere near there, and she's sick. Then she's going to have to be rescued by someone, either a dragon or Tyrion doing something clever, or Victarion doing something dumb that works because he's awesome or whatever.

    In any case, it's nowhere near the same situation. She's not going to marry that Khal because, dragons or no, he's going to follow tradition. And she's not alone in the world with only her crazy brother to care for her. She has a whole bunch of people who are going to be interested in what happens to her, because she's been ruling a city and has DRAGONS.

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
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