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Extra Credits Harassment Episode: Crossfire Harassment?

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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

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    AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    It isn't just the fighting game community; there was an article recently (i think also on Ars) about a young transgendered woman doing well on the national Starcraft scene (even against the Koreans!). While it didn't sound quite as bad as the Bakhtanians stuff, there was still bigoted language both from the community and in the comments for the article (i know, internet comments).

    There certainly was some bigoted language, but the overwhelming opinion from most of the community was very positive. Hell, at a podcast done by a bunch of very well known names in the scene at PAX East I believe a couple of them openly spoke about how it doesn't really matter what the details of her personal life is, she's did bloody well at some starcraft and good for her.

    It really is just a case of a vocal minority saying a bunch of shit that is really obvious and so vile it just stands out amongst the rest of the neutral or positive comments. :(

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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    He's actually played the "telling me to not be a shitheel is censorship" card. Which makes this hedgie feel punchy.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    He's actually played the "telling me to not be a shitheel is censorship" card. Which makes this hedgie feel punchy.

    I'd love for him to try to take someone to court over the right to be a harassing douchebag.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    Exactly

    The worst SC2 has is... Destiny making rape jokes on his stream, I think?

    The FGC will never be taken seriously until it gets its shit together and refuses to tolerate harassment and behavior like what we saw.

    override367 on
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    CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    SC2 is actually really fun to watch. It's like chess on crack.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
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    AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    Exactly

    The worst SC2 has is... Destiny making rape jokes on his stream, I think?

    The FGC will never be taken seriously until it gets its shit together and refuses to tolerate harassment and behavior like what we saw.

    Aside from the occasional other debacle that doesn't last long as the person in question gets shunned out of existance, Destiny is about it. And even he has lessened in recent months.

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    BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    Exactly

    The worst SC2 has is... Destiny making rape jokes on his stream, I think?

    The FGC will never be taken seriously until it gets its shit together and refuses to tolerate harassment and behavior like what we saw.

    So he was pursuing her outside of the game? I haven't seen the video, but that would be a pretty good indication that it wasn't just a part of the game, just like how your not allowed to talk about a football player's sister when not fishing for a false start.

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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    comrade904 wrote: »
    Cururu wrote: »

    And I think the point that most people are trying to make is that such a place should not exist. There's nothing noble or desirable about being abrasive and not needing to appologize for it. If that kind of behavior is encouraged, then it will only get worse.

    Maybe I'm starting to show my years, or even lack thereof but I'm pointing out that my experience with the gaming community prior "modern" times is that it was made out of people who didn't/don't or can't/couldn't understand why this is wrong. A problem we will have to deal with as gaming continues to "civilize" itself. Perhaps its an anomaly but I experienced gaming that was made up of the outcasts because gaming is the only place we could go, and well, sometimes there is a reason for that. Aris is an unfortunate relic who perhaps, was socially unacceptable but found refuge in gaming. Gaming however is beginning to leave him behind. There are a lot of Aris' so things will be bittersweet. Those who aren't too far gone, may learn and become socialized, the others will be left behind. Is that a good thing or a bad thing I dunno. Gaming to me has always accepted anyone, and as detrimental as Aris is I will be sad to see gaming start to reject people.

    I just thought of something, as gaming goes more mainstream, gains class, and requires more from its members. Where will the outcasts go?

    There is nothing wrong or even "bittersweet" about excluding bigots. Also, "gaming" is not a monolithic entity with willpower or any sort of agency. It is not there to provide a refuge for assholes. No community should ever be a safe haven for bigotry.

    flamebroiledchicken on
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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    So Thorne, has Aris been blacklisted by the FGC?

    If not, then the community has a problem still.

    Exactly this, he disdainfully talks about the SC2 community, but if Day9 went on a rant about how sexism is cool because its part of the culture he would never cast again

    I wouldn't want to be part of a community that looked down on a community because it ensures its members engage in basic fucking civility. 15-20 year old males is not an excuse to act like cavemen dragging their clubs about.

    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    Exactly

    The worst SC2 has is... Destiny making rape jokes on his stream, I think?

    The FGC will never be taken seriously until it gets its shit together and refuses to tolerate harassment and behavior like what we saw.

    Clarification: Destiny made a rape joke on his stream before anyone really knew who the fuck he was. He does kind of toss the word around like most games are wont to do, though.

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    comrade904comrade904 Registered User regular

    There is nothing wrong or even "bittersweet" about excluding bigots. Also, "gaming" is not a monolithic entity with willpower or any sort of agency. It is not there to provide a refuge for assholes. No community should ever be a safe haven for bigotry.

    Gaming IS NOT here to provide a refuge for assholes. Gaming SHOULD NOT provide a refuge for assholes.

    However, in my earlier years I watched gaming (at least in my area) do just that, almost exclusively, and if you take the xbox live example, STILL does, in substantial numbers. This is a problem.

    I don't know how much better I can put this is I feel like I'm taking crap for it. Gaming accepting assholes and abrasive personalities, is gaming in its infantile state. Gaming evolving to a point where the assholes are kept out for widespread acceptance is like a high school graduation. Am I not allowed to watch gaming walk across a stage to accept her diploma, while being nostalgic for a time when gaming crapped its pants?

    Fact of the matter if I hadn't been accepted I would be a very different person, and most likely worse than now. When I was accepted my local community was feral, racist and bigoted, but my horizon widened, regional meeting and get togethers, then the national events Quakecon and CPL now PAX. The man writing this today is a very different person than the one who was accepted all those years ago. So yes it will be good for gaming to exclude some of the these people, or at least the very worst of the worst. I still find the idea somewhat off putting because if just a hand full of things in my life had gone differently I might behave like that, (thank god I never did) and then gaming might not have been the powerful positive force it was.

    Its too late for Aris, as evidenced by his unwillingness to even acknowledge that he even did anything wrong. My point in my original post is that there may be something positive to be gained from analyzing the situation very closely. How to avoid acting like Aris, how to avoid not standing up for yourself like Miranda, and how to avoid not standing up for a fellow gamer being harassed like the other gamers on the cross assault team. Unless you disassemble the situation and reverse engineer the entire thing to see how it came together, you stand a good chance of not recognizing the situation when it is upon you, and then it happens again. Everyone has something to learn here, the gamers, the sponsors, the producers.

    We need to learn from this and gain a DEEP understanding of, WHY it happened, HOW it happened, HOW to prevent it from happening again, and WHAT to do if it happens again.

    or else it will happen again.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    We know why it happened: fight games apparently have a culture of bigotry that the members are willing to accept

    We know how to end it: stop accepting it and call out bullshit like the story that started this thread

    This shit is not hard.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Yes, it is.

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Page- wrote: »
    Yes, it is.

    Changing the culture? Debatable.

    Identifying the issue? Not hard at all.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    There's no debate about it. Without outside influences things will not change.

    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Page- wrote: »
    There's no debate about it. Without outside influences things will not change.

    There's plenty of outside influence though. If this is someones potential livelyhood then they have a vested interest in making it appropriate to human beings to watch. We shouldn't bother with the groupws themselves just the developers. They stand to make the most money off a theoretical pro fighting scene ( or even an online gaming service )and it should be their job to police it better than they have.

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    So, should I judge the League of Legends community...

    Well, the League of Legends community is God fucking awful, and everyone knows it, so I doubt anyone would care if you judged it that way. It deserves the reputation it has, and the rage chatlogs that Guinsoo regularly has to post in order to justify an account ban proves it.
    A friend of mine watches a lot of pro-tourney SC2 shit, and she's told me that any time someone has had an awful attitude like Aris did, they were dropped like a bad habit from tourneys, teams, etc.

    So if this guy is talking shit about the SC2 community, it must be because he hates the idea of self-policing in a community, that people are actually decent when he's not.

    Four words:

    'Be A Better Gamer'

    The overwhelming message from the SC2 competitive scene is self improvement. I don't think there is another eSport right now that strives to be as accessible as SC2.

    I mean, what would Husky or TotalBiscuit or Day9 say about someone who went to a tournament and made it their mission to make a fellow competitor feel like a blow-up doll? They'd rip their heads off. Nevermind a 'ban' (which would almost certainly be leveled anyway) - that person would never be able to walk into a venue and play for money again.

    The FGC should look at this model, and rather than insisting that new players be put down, trash talking be mandated, misogyny & racism considered 'part of the game', etc, figure out why that hasn't been a successful endeavor while SC2's has.
    I don't doubt that the FGC is not a place many of you would not enjoy. It's abrasive, confrontational, and has no patience for the weak or foolish. It confronts people with their failures and problems and I know of no harsher a competitive environment.

    It's not 'harsh'. It's lazy and it's crass.

    Rather than calling people worthless because they bought a cheaper stick or endlessly linking 'Flowchart Ken' whenever a new player tries to learn a shoto character (because HOW DARE YOU TRY TO GET BETTER WITH A CHARACTER YOU ENJOY!?) or treating girls strictly as eye candy, maybe you could teach people how to get better at the game? Maybe then the genre wouldn't be so fucking dead in the water, with a shrinking player base? I mean, just perhaps?

    But that takes effort. It means somebody (or a group of people; the equivalent of,say, the Gamestation) actually has to do the work involved in putting together tutorials, producing videos, making entertaining commentary, etc. And, so far, nobody in the FGC has wanted to do the work. The want the publicity, they want the prize pools and they want the genre to grow, but they don't want to create any content. Well, too bad. 100 word articles on Destructoid and one troll meme don't cut it.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Perhaps its an anomaly but I experienced gaming that was made up of the outcasts because gaming is the only place we could go, and well, sometimes there is a reason for that.

    Man, when Extra Credits talked about gaming as a place / community some people could retreat to for safety after rejection / abuse at school, that really hit me hard. I mean, I imagine most people here had much shittier high school experiences than me, but mine were bad enough even while being a straight white male (between being taunted for not being a 'real' guy, being extorted for money and having social anxiety without understanding I had it) and I'll never forget the day I found MUSHClient and logged into a Marvel Comics MUSH. It reversed a really insidious perception I had of myself and of other people.

    A lot of the people who played that MUSH were gay or transgender, and for a lot of us it represented the only group of peers who just liked hanging around with each other.

    That only makes me more pissed-off with this Aris asshole, and people like him, who want to bring the ostracism & bullying into the space I used as a haven from that.

    With Love and Courage
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Page- wrote: »
    There's no debate about it. Without outside influences things will not change.

    There's plenty of outside influence though. If this is someones potential livelyhood then they have a vested interest in making it appropriate to human beings to watch. We shouldn't bother with the groupws themselves just the developers. They stand to make the most money off a theoretical pro fighting scene ( or even an online gaming service )and it should be their job to police it better than they have.

    Well, as I've explained multiple times, someone's potential livelihood is not at stake, and the developers do not care. I mean, what Aris did happened on a show partially organized by Capcom and Namco. And they did not give a single fuck. Because the fact is the competitive fighting game community is like .0005% of their sales. And for tournaments it's not like other competitive games where everything is sponsor driven and run by people who make their money putting together tournaments. For the most part tournaments are organized and run by people in the community and paid for by entry fees and maybe a few local gaming stores or something.

    This is also a part of the problem: because everything done in the FGC is done by the FGC they have both an us vs them mentality about other competitive communities, people outside the FGC, and even other parts of the FGC. You tell them "be more like these guys, they do it right," and they'll say "we've been doing this on our own since the 90s so don't tell us what to do."

    Now MLG wants to get in on fighting games, but they're being kind of foolish about it and Capcom doesn't want MLG using their games. Without MLG getting their act together and Capcom allowing their games in MLG tournaments things will not be influenced that greatly. The only thing MLG has going for it right now is that they guarantee more money, but at the same time they still get less entrants than comparable tournaments run by the FGC--which is partially because they schedule their tournaments at the same time as FGC tournaments and announce it like 3 weeks before it starts so barely anyone can even get to them.

    In a year or two things might be different, but right now there just isn't enough actual incentive for anyone to change.

    Page- on
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    Cucco LeaderCucco Leader Registered User regular
    During this whole "thing" I was wondering... where was Capcom and where was the rage at them for doing basically nothing? One guy is an asshole, okay. Yet, Capcom is a company full of people. They had a golden opportunity to do something right and totally missed it. That whole "The views expressed..." thing has got to be the biggest cop out ever.

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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    During this whole "thing" I was wondering... where was Capcom and where was the rage at them for doing basically nothing? One guy is an asshole, okay. Yet, Capcom is a company full of people. They had a golden opportunity to do something right and totally missed it. That whole "The views expressed..." thing has got to be the biggest cop out ever.

    I imagine they're more or less doing whatever the company legal team tells them to do, which has more to do with corporate culture (and fear of litigation) than gaming culture.

    The tournament organizers don't have much of an excuse, though.

    Like, look at this shit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HeBrs8cgTU

    ...I dunno if that guy just doesn't know what to say or is actually attempting to ostracize the young lady, but fuck him either way.

    The only appropriate response would've been, "Asshole and his team are disqualified, and are no longer welcome at tournaments. SuperYAN, we're very sorry this happened. Everyone should feel safe at our events."

    With Love and Courage
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    y2jake215y2jake215 certified Flat Birther theorist the Last Good Boy onlineRegistered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Three words:

    'Be A Better Gamer'

    Four words. :P

    C8Ft8GE.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    y2jake215 wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Three words:

    'Be A Better Gamer'

    Four words. :P

    I played video games instead of doing math homework. :/

    With Love and Courage
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    MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    You had to count for math homework?

    What kind of Mickey Mouse school did you go to?

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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    You had to count for math homework?

    What kind of Mickey Mouse school did you go to?

    I count on my fingers sometimes. But just for adding small numbers. I can add/multiply larger numbers in my head, but for some reason small numbers go on my fingers.

    Bad habit. Don't care enough to break it.

    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    y2jake215 wrote: »
    There are societal and economic factors in the FGC that don't have parallels in other communities. They grew up with and among the poor, in arcades and malls, barely able to afford the money to play.

    This is just absolutely ridiculous. You're right - none of the guys in the NBA grew up in and among the poor. None of them. No one in the NFL, either. They all went to private school and wanted for nothing

    Adding to that: they're not in the arcades and the malls anymore. It's time to grow up.

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    mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    You had to count for math homework?

    What kind of Mickey Mouse school did you go to?

    Mik Mau School thank you.

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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    Aris has ruined dwarves for me forever.

    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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