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[GW2]Making a new thread for the BWE. See you guys on Aspenwood soon!

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    Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I want an MMO with perma-death. Granted, I want progress to transfer (gold, loot, rep), I just want that particular iteration of that character to be fucking dead.

    I know I'm probably alone in this.

    Also I have extremely high hopes for wuvwuv and I kept getting the 95% issue when I tried to do it during the stress test. I hope I am not disappointed.

    PSN/NNID/Steam: Dr_Keenbean
    3DS: 1650-8480-6786
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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I want an MMO with perma-death. Granted, I want progress to transfer (gold, loot, rep), I just want that particular iteration of that character to be fucking dead.

    CCP's upcoming World of Darkness MMO. Go look it up.
    I know I'm probably alone in this.

    I could come to appreciate such a game mechanic. Just not in any old game. Games designed with this in mind.

    Corehealer on
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    doomybeardoomybear Hi People Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    I want an MMO with perma-death. Granted, I want progress to transfer (gold, loot, rep), I just want that particular iteration of that character to be fucking dead.

    CCP's upcoming World of Darkness MMO. Go look it up.
    I know I'm probably alone in this.

    I could come to appreciate such a game mechanic. Just not in any old game. Games designed with this in mind.

    CCP's other game, EVE Online, comes close to permadeath in its 'lose your ship and its gone' play. I like EVE, but I don't have time to play/learn it enough to become competent.

    what a happy day it is
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    DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    When you die in eve your char is permadeathed. Just that your conciousness is transferred to a clone.

    Technically.

    And you dont play eve persay. You metagame while editing your spreadsheets.

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    SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    I will accept no permadeath in an MMO unless it comes with snarky death messages a la Quest for Glory.

    Want to find me on a gaming service? I'm SwashbucklerXX everywhere.
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I'm cool with permadeath in a game designed for it. I'd probably build something like a secondary advancement system where death would give some sort of a unique advantage and disadvantage to your next character.

    It'd have to be a pretty different game from GW2 or even the previous gen of MMO's. Something more like Eternal Darkness the MMO maybe.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Guys

    1 week.

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    Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    I will accept no permadeath in an MMO unless it comes with snarky death messages a la Quest for Glory.

    Or any of the Quest games. Those were the best.

    PSN/NNID/Steam: Dr_Keenbean
    3DS: 1650-8480-6786
    Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    Draygo wrote: »
    Guys

    1 week.

    I was at Target last night with my wife and we were in the games aisle and I found myself saying "I don't want to play any of these I wish they'd just open up GW2 to be playable all the time."

    But I'll take a BWE.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012


    Press streaming of the closed beta going on right now. (It's sanctioned.)

    Edit: they're about to shut it down. I guess it was a short term thing.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    MrVyngaardMrVyngaard Live From New Etoile Straight Outta SosariaRegistered User regular
    I will accept no permadeath in an MMO unless it comes with snarky death messages a la Quest for Glory.

    I am entirely behind this idea for future hardcore modes in games. Even GW2.

    "now I've got this mental image of caucuses as cafeteria tables in prison, and new congressmen having to beat someone up on inauguration day." - Raiden333
    camo_sig2.png
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

    You guys were wrong. There are pics from the stream that traits are limits by points invested. Why did you make me think it would be ok.

    Im going to cut myself now

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    AvynteAvynte Registered User regular
    I want an MMO with perma-death. Granted, I want progress to transfer (gold, loot, rep), I just want that particular iteration of that character to be fucking dead.

    I know I'm probably alone in this.

    Also I have extremely high hopes for wuvwuv and I kept getting the 95% issue when I tried to do it during the stress test. I hope I am not disappointed.

    The upcoming mmo Salem is a permadeath sandbox title, although the current impressions seem to agree it's absolute shit and filled with a grind that puts many a korean title to shame.

    ECOED.jpg
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    EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

    You guys were wrong. There are pics from the stream that traits are limits by points invested. Why did you make me think it would be ok.

    Im going to cut myself now

    What do you mean traits are limited by points invested?

    Did they change it from the 5,10,15,20,etc?

    ibpFhR6PdsPw80.png
    Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
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    MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    The game will release aug 28. This would put the 3 day head start right before my birthday on the 26. This will happen.

    I'm sorry, but I have already claimed Aug 26th as my own birth date, you will have to choose another.

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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

    You guys were wrong. There are pics from the stream that traits are limits by points invested. Why did you make me think it would be ok.

    Im going to cut myself now


    However there is another side of this coin to look at for the balance. This way they can make a certain set of majors that ARE better than another set of majors.

    They can also encourage a person to sink the gold for the trait books to gain access to the better traits.

    Edit: To be clear I don't mind the restrictions. Sometimes it's better for game play that there are rules to things. If I could cast black magic by tapping an island in MTG than there'd be problems with the game that would make it un-fun. I think that before any real judgement is made we have to kick the tires of the system and see if these limits might not actually better for the game in the long run. I really believe that sometimes "nerfs" can be the best thing for a game at the time.

    Edit2: another reason this could be good from a game perspective design is that you have to give some level of incentive to sink trait point costs into a tree. This does a good job of it. Someone who invests 30 in one tree should have some sort of reward for doing so beyond the passive.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    I want an MMO with perma-death. Granted, I want progress to transfer (gold, loot, rep), I just want that particular iteration of that character to be fucking dead.

    I know I'm probably alone in this.

    Also I have extremely high hopes for wuvwuv and I kept getting the 95% issue when I tried to do it during the stress test. I hope I am not disappointed.

    Sony's just acquired Wizardry Online will have permadeath, too. In a persistent open-PvP world with friendly fire enabled at all times, no less. That's a little _too_ hardcore for my tastes.


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    ShenShen Registered User regular
    Enig wrote: »
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

    You guys were wrong. There are pics from the stream that traits are limits by points invested. Why did you make me think it would be ok.

    Im going to cut myself now

    What do you mean traits are limited by points invested?

    Did they change it from the 5,10,15,20,etc?

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/601-pc-gamer-guild-wars-2-streaming-live/

    Super lame. For skills, maybe it's like elective mode in Diablo to stop beginners fucking up their build?

    Trait tiers is likely a balance thing, but I'm 100% with Kai_San in that I oppose anything that might lead to more restrictive builds.

    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Shen wrote: »
    Enig wrote: »
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

    You guys were wrong. There are pics from the stream that traits are limits by points invested. Why did you make me think it would be ok.

    Im going to cut myself now

    What do you mean traits are limited by points invested?

    Did they change it from the 5,10,15,20,etc?

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/601-pc-gamer-guild-wars-2-streaming-live/

    Super lame. For skills, maybe it's like elective mode in Diablo to stop beginners fucking up their build?

    Trait tiers is likely a balance thing, but I'm 100% with Kai_San in that I oppose anything that might lead to more restrictive builds.

    For skills it really doesn't matter because at some point you'll unlock them all anyway. If anything it's a way for them to keep people from just unlocking the 4 they like and being done with skill point challenges.

    As for the traits. What if it's not so much for balance but for player psychology? Maybe the vast majority of people will be sitting there with their three major builds complaining about not having enough choice and needing to add in more traits. Maybe the idea is to give a weighted value to going to the end of the tree because the extra value in it.

    By compartmentalizing it they give some extra weight to the choices you have to make. They make it a game as opposed to a shmorgasboard of choice.

    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    So now you have some choices and making those choices sometimes cuts off a road to you.

    In games sometimes part of the fun are the hard choices.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    All of GW2 is "more restrictive" than GW1, so it's no time to start worrying now. There will still be thousands of possibilities even with this change. I'm curious to see what traits they deem too powerful to have access to without a heavy point investment though. This could make it even trickier to make builds (which is a good thing, I hate cookie-cutter stuff, and I like that GW2 actually forces you to make choices).

    The skills thing I don't care about because at worst that just means you have to level up a bit more to use a few of the skills.

    Enig on
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    Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
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    PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    Wow, that's pretty shitty. Flamethrower better be one of the first skills an engineer can unlock. Probably not, though.

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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

    why?

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

    This, too, saddens me.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

    why?

    Because the point of the system was to allow you to go as deep as you wanted into a tree and have access to the traits you wanted. If I only wanted one of the major traits, I wanted to be able to go only 10 points deep so I could then focus on other areas. Now, to get that one, I may be required to go 30 deep, which IMO reduces options.

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    CaedereCaedere S'no regrets BIRDIESRegistered User regular
    Guys, let's give ArenaNet more credit than this, okay?

    If the trait system ends up being genuinely shitty—which I doubt it will be—then they'll change it. Remember that ArenaNet is not Blizzard. If there are "reduced options" then it's because they have a very compelling reason for it.

    FWnykYl.jpg
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

    why?

    Because the point of the system was to allow you to go as deep as you wanted into a tree and have access to the traits you wanted. If I only wanted one of the major traits, I wanted to be able to go only 10 points deep so I could then focus on other areas. Now, to get that one, I may be required to go 30 deep, which IMO reduces options.

    But we're being shown that isn't the point of the system. As it's implemented the point of the system is to make hard choices about what you have to take to get what you want.

    I don't know. Maybe they'll back off on it and put it back the way it was before if enough people complain about it but I think it's better in it's new configuration overall. It adds complexity to the game. The point of the new system is not to reduce choice but to shift the focus of that choice so that is has a consequence.

    One of the things I don't like about the open system as it was in BWE #1 was that there was nothing to do there. You picked your favorite candy and called it good. Very rarely did I feel like I had to make a decision that had some negative impact of some form. The new system provides that.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    Maybe. Or you could look at it as a way to expand builds by making certain traits "harder" to get by requiring more investement.

    Otherwise, you could risk there being THE trait to get, and EVERYONE has that trait, because the few points you have to invest to get it gives you a phenomenal return, and then everything flows from that. Versus people who are commited to getting certain traits building for those traits, versus cherry picking.

    But again, I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to fool around with it in game. But I'm of the belief (and I think we went through this last time) that putting limits could actually be beneficial for balance and net result in MORE viable builds rather than fewer.

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    DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    am0n wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    The breakdown:

    Major 1: Traits 1-6
    Major 2 : Traits 1-10
    Major 3: Traits 1-12

    Not a fan.

    why?

    Because the point of the system was to allow you to go as deep as you wanted into a tree and have access to the traits you wanted. If I only wanted one of the major traits, I wanted to be able to go only 10 points deep so I could then focus on other areas. Now, to get that one, I may be required to go 30 deep, which IMO reduces options.

    That explains your disappointment.

    Anet never said that the entire point of the system was so you could invest 10 points in just for the strongest ability.

    I'm pretty sure thats not the point of the system.

    Reduction of options makes balance more controllable as well. Especially if X trait is a multiplier with Y trait and you want X and Y to remain strong options.

    Anet has already learned the lesson of the issues around too many options, that alone made guild wars unsustainable.

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    Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    What's great about this is I know nothing about this system and won't be assed to look into it until it comes out probably.

    So I can't be disappointed!

    PSN/NNID/Steam: Dr_Keenbean
    3DS: 1650-8480-6786
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    ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    What's great about this is I know nothing about this system and won't be assed to look into it until it comes out probably.

    So I can't be disappointed!

    So you're saying all those people who were theorycrafting "their build" months ago were just wasting time? Really?!?!

    /etradebabyshockedface

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Enig wrote: »
    All of GW2 is "more restrictive" than GW1, so it's no time to start worrying now. There will still be thousands of possibilities even with this change. I'm curious to see what traits they deem too powerful to have access to without a heavy point investment though. This could make it even trickier to make builds (which is a good thing, I hate cookie-cutter stuff, and I like that GW2 actually forces you to make choices).

    The skills thing I don't care about because at worst that just means you have to level up a bit more to use a few of the skills.

    GW2 is intentionally more restrictive in order to allow them to balance the game and include more interesting or cool abilities/skills/traits/whatever.

    Apparently they felt the trait system wasn't balanced in it's previous form.

    Frankly, if it had just appeared this way first, no one would be complaining. When following a game in alpha/beta, you gotta learn to not freak the fuck out. Shit changes all the time.


    Caedere wrote: »
    Guys, let's give ArenaNet more credit than this, okay?

    If the trait system ends up being genuinely shitty—which I doubt it will be—then they'll change it. Remember that ArenaNet is not Blizzard. If there are "reduced options" then it's because they have a very compelling reason for it.

    Oh please. Because, of course, when Blizzard does it, it's just to fuck with the players, right? There can obviously be no compelling reason...

    Like any decent dev, they are adjusting the system to make the game play better and more balanced.

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    HewnHewn Registered User regular
    ironzerg wrote: »
    Maybe. Or you could look at it as a way to expand builds by making certain traits "harder" to get by requiring more investement.

    Otherwise, you could risk there being THE trait to get, and EVERYONE has that trait, because the few points you have to invest to get it gives you a phenomenal return, and then everything flows from that. Versus people who are commited to getting certain traits building for those traits, versus cherry picking.

    But again, I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to fool around with it in game. But I'm of the belief (and I think we went through this last time) that putting limits could actually be beneficial for balance and net result in MORE viable builds rather than fewer.

    You make a good point.

    A game like UO gave you 700 skill points to spend however you wanted. Total freedom! Well, as long as you didn't mind being 2nd rate. If you wanted to PVP, there were only 3 builds that were actually viable after you got done crunching the mix/max math. And all of them had certain skills at prerequisites anyway, so there was even less variety.

    So even with thousands of combinations, you were still playing rock, paper, scissors.

    By creating a little restriction you could end up with dozens of viable builds rather than a handful.

    Steam: hewn
    Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
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    naengwennaengwen Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Fuck guys

    I can't run my crazy ass perma stealth build in PvP anymore

    fuck

    Cuz I totally play a thief see

    naengwen on
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    The simple fact its that some of us enjoy playing with builds, and limiting our options makes it less fun. Those who are k with it mostly don't enjoy builds like those of us who do so that's why you really only see it as a positive.
    Its entirely possible tobalance them without limiting choices. at least to the point of nothing being op
    Some of us don't care how many viable builds there are. Some of us like playing around with unviable ones too.
    Everyone has their opinion. But I liken this to something like wuvwuv being restricted to only people above level 30 for a different perspective. There are balance reasons that would work too but a different subset of people would be pissed.

    Kai_San on
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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    In other news! For those still on the fence/want a buddy to play with them during next weekends BWE, IGN is giving codes out like CANDY. Literally.

    http://www.ign.com/blogs/flowen7/2012/05/31/guild-wars-2-beta-weekend-event-2-keys/

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    The simple fact its that some of us enjoy playing with builds, and limiting our options makes it less fun. Those who are k with it mostly don't enjoy builds like those of us who do so that's why you really only see it as a positive.
    Its entirely possible tobalance them without limiting choices. at least to the point of nothing being op
    Some of us don't care how many viable builds there are. Some of us like playing around with unviable ones too.
    Everyone has their opinion. But I liken this to something like wuvwuv being restricted to only people above level 30 for a different perspective. There are balance reasons that would work too but a different subset of people would be pissed.

    It is, I guess, theoretically possible to balance everything without limiting choices. Realistically, it's not though.

    And again, limiting access to skills allows you to make them more powerful, more interesting, more varied, etc. This is one of the main reasons dual-classing is gone from GW2.


    And you may not care how many viable builds there are, but ArenaNet does. Very much so. Insuring a large number of viable builds is one of the top design goals for basically any systems designer in a game like this.

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    HewnHewn Registered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Some of us don't care how many viable builds there are. Some of us like playing around with unviable ones too.

    This is your lucky day! I guarantee Guild Wars 2 will have some of those. But act quick or they might get buffed before you get a chance to try it. ;-)

    Steam: hewn
    Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
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    SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Kai_San wrote: »
    The simple fact its that some of us enjoy playing with builds, and limiting our options makes it less fun. Those who are k with it mostly don't enjoy builds like those of us who do so that's why you really only see it as a positive.
    Its entirely possible tobalance them without limiting choices. at least to the point of nothing being op
    Some of us don't care how many viable builds there are. Some of us like playing around with unviable ones too.
    Everyone has their opinion. But I liken this to something like wuvwuv being restricted to only people above level 30 for a different perspective. There are balance reasons that would work too but a different subset of people would be pissed.

    I love making builds. I spend probably on average of 5-10 hours+ on each magic the gathering deck I build. I also think this new system is a good idea so your argument there doesn't fly.

    The more open a system is the more it offers a false illusion of choice. Hell look at GW1. Didn't you use a build that was the most optimal made by a guy on reddit? Doesn't just about everyone run some form of 7-hero support or theway? If I wanted to play a motivation build on my paragon think anyone would want me around?

    If 90% of the skills are sub optimal if you take them people don't want to play with you and you get people building things that are terrible. . . I mean aweful. . .I mean I've seen things in my years with that game that would scar your soul. Ever seen a ritualist with a pet and wilderness survival traps? I have. I've also seen a warrior with elementalist fire AoE spells.

    Some sort of limiter would have done that system well and I think they learned that lesson.



    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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    naengwennaengwen Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Kai_San wrote: »
    The simple fact its that some of us enjoy playing with builds, and limiting our options makes it less fun. Those who are k with it mostly don't enjoy builds like those of us who do so that's why you really only see it as a positive.
    Its entirely possible tobalance them without limiting choices. at least to the point of nothing being op
    Some of us don't care how many viable builds there are. Some of us like playing around with unviable ones too.
    Everyone has their opinion. But I liken this to something like wuvwuv being restricted to only people above level 30 for a different perspective. There are balance reasons that would work too but a different subset of people would be pissed.

    Yeah, let's have more options all the time. More choices to make, because more choice always means more fun when it comes to builds. In fact, y'know what? Fuck dual classes, I wanna play as a warrior/engineer/Mesmer triple combo with every single weapon set accessible at a single time, a hundred man army to customize, and thousands of slots to fill in my inventory set. After all, builds are only fun if you have as many choices as you possibly can! It'll be just like DnD, only you can't restrict the shitty pointless sourcebooks that detail exactly what reagents your wizard uses to cast a single fireball spell, where to procure them from, and how to grapple.

    ... Eh, sorry about that. I'll sympathize with ArenaNet here, wasted customization can turn into a lodestone very fast when it comes to getting new people interested.

    naengwen on
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