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Star Wars: [Phalla]nce in the Force - Sith Empire(mafia) Are Victorious
I completly forgot about rawwkings reveal by the time I put in my kill. Which was right before I made that dumb fake post. I played a crappy last day since I only trusted ketbra and then only marginally. I knew mojo had trusted cayrus and anialos but Ani was supposed to guard him or somthing along with warban?
Still I killed schuss and figgy all on my own. Since I only became the future on day 6 and hadnt had much of soft network. And I suggested Mojo kill mascara since I suspected her from fracking day 2-3ish but could never be 100% sure about it. If I was 100% I would have killed her myself and wrote some dialog for a narration thing I had in mind. Oh well.
I think it would have helped if more than Kime was doing the talking. If you want to grudge someone, grudge yourselves :P
Seriously, it was a VERY intense and fun game for me. I'm not sure if this is how they normally go, but it was fun. Several thoughts:
On Networking:
Dear god was networking impossible this game. Between the lack of seering, the SK and the conversion, it was impossible to ever be sure of anyone. Even when I could figure out that people definitely weren't Sith (like Ketbra, Jdarksun and Retaba), I could never be sure they weren't the serial killer or had been converted to the apprentice. And I also kept being wrong about who was and wasn't Sith, so in the end (and particularly after Assuran's reveal), I couldn't even be sure on that. That was the main reason I didn't reveal everyone in the network, is that I knew I'd been wrong and I especially couldn't be sure if there was an SK in it. I was hoping that everyone who I had specifically told I trusted (Ketbra, Warban, GG, Mojo, Cayrus, SNT and Retaba) would contact whichever one of them took over the network the next day. If I was wrong on one of them, they wouldn't necessarily know what I had told the others and would stay back from it. In hindsight, I really should have told Ketbra that Mojo was the sword and cayrus had the Fondor power. In the end, there was a lot of noob network head is noob.
From a design perspective, I'm not sure that zero seering and conversions can co-exist well in a game, especially with some RNGing clouding up the kills as well. Mentor would have been nice, but the Sith just refused to kill councilors. Though I will say that the SK helping out the village as much as they did (Thanks guys!) was a really interesting development. I'm not sure how intentional this was, but it was pretty cool to see the Dask lord taking out Sith masters when we needed them to.
On finding Sith:
It was really tough. The knights were a bit easier, as they normally had released their planet information. Knowing Infidel and Segatai weren't on Bothawui and Farangu wasn't on Nal Hutta made them stick out a bit more. The padawans were a lot harder. They could hide behind their knight not giving info, not giving information themselves, and just saying they trained. The masters were just as hard, since almost all of them were mentoring/protecting it was tough to catch one who wasn't doing what they were supposed to. For what it's worth, I think we as the council spent a bit too much time mentoring and not enough time protecting.
Even so, you totally should have voted out Kime last night I was actually really excited when Bedlam said his "friend" was vigging Nirya, since I knew she was the other Sith and it would've given you one more day. There were three things on that last day that I think could have led you to him: 1) None of the original knight/padawan pairs were both Sith. There were only three players left who hadn't been paired with a sith or on the council: Kime, Nirya and Cayrus. I knew Cayrus was Jedi (since he had the fondor power) and I was hoping he'd revealed to the network as well. 2) Rawwking GoodGuy's conversion story made a lot of sense. I was actually convinced Kime was the SK apprentice for the last few days for the sole reason that if I was an SK and needed to pick someone from the padawan list to help me win, Kime would've been my first choice, no question. 3) Kime had been silent all game until then. When I opened up voting to any analysis that could happen, he didn't say anything. It was obvious that he hadn't contacted the network, even though he surely knew he could have run it better. And now that there were only a few left, he was posting walls of text (which incidentally were AMAZINGLY pieces of work. Even if no one else appreciated it, I did Kime!). While I know it's a bit cliche to say "If Kime and Infidel are alive day 4, kill them," there's a bit of truth in it. The mafia knows disinformation is one of its best weapons and won't let anyone who might be able to challenge it live ot the end game if they can avoid it.
On a side note, I totally owe @Peccavi an apology. I should have known no Sith would have done that level of analysis, and had I not been distracted by RL and trying to post from a movie theater, this would have been obvious. I knew I was making assumptions on Sith power and needed another voice to take a look at things. If you want it, you are absolutely entitled to a "Free Grudge Vote for Saber" whenever you want it.
Overall, it was a fun game Obi! For my first phalla, it really was quite crazy. I would definitely appreciate any advice for the next time and look forward to jumping back in!
All in all a super fun game, I wanted to choke saber for not leaving me any type of contacts in case of his death, I was practically yelling at my screen this last day when you guys werent killing kime
Yeah, I spent way too much time on friday trying to find the last few Sith and get planets and not nearly enough on keeping the network safe in the event of my demise or trying to hide what i was doing from them.
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Shiny New Toyswhere am i?its dark in hereRegistered Userregular
Obi, this was massively fun so thank you. I'm off to the mafia proboards to find out who UB killed me on my birthday so they are grudged forever.( I'm assuming UB means unblockable in your spreadsheet.)
Kime pinged for me as uber suspicious when he claimed not to have read the council proboard after having commented on the color scheme straight after it was unlocked. But i was dead by then so couldnt say anything!
He was right though, a quiet village is a dead village, especially when you just then vote with the mafia doing all the talking.
Also there were some comments made that the padawans were ignored and cast aside, but it seems to me with their roleblocking power they had one of the most powerful weapons out there. I was speaking to my padawan from day one and was very surprised that not everyone was.
Obi, great great job. I was so intimidated when I first saw the game, and I enjoy that feeling. I couldn't believe you were keeping track of all this and still playing in other games. Blows my mind.
As for balance, I think you did a pretty amazing job for your first phalla. Heck, it's probably (read: definitely) more balanced than anything I have ever run. Not that that's saying much.
He was right though, a quiet village is a dead village, especially when you just then vote with the mafia doing all the talking.
Also there were some comments made that the padawans were ignored and cast aside, but it seems to me with their roleblocking power they had one of the most powerful weapons out there. I was speaking to my padawan from day one and was very surprised that not everyone was.
I'm totally going to second this. One of the reasons we had such a good day 3 was that we were finally able to roleblock several Sith (vert, farangu and segatai as I recall).
Also, at least two padawans (Bedlam and Grunt's Ghost) both expressed suspicion (rightly, as it turns out) about their knights not talking to them. One of my big take-aways from all of this is that a good villager talks, even when they are wrong and aren't sure what's going on.
@SaberOverEasy: I forgot this was your first game, hahaha. Good job!
@Shiny New Toys: I think we just decided to kill you because it seemed like you were getting more trusted/confirmed as time went on. And, well, we can't have that :P.
sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
Hey guys when someone is quiet ALL GAME, especially when they're very chatty 90% of the time... and then towards the end they're suddenly an explosion of activity and helpfulness...
Ah well, it was a great game, nice work Kime.
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Oh hey saber, I just saw your pm asking about mafia finding. I think what happened is I read it and then typed up a thing and thought I sent it, but didn't.
Good job, though, my advice on that was basically "I am not very good at that part of the game, I'm much better at working the other side of the table. Voting records and looking for intent to mislead is the best bet. "
Honestly, I expected to take a back seat to everything since I only had intermittent internet access, and following phallas on my phone isn't fun, but the mechanics really made me WANT to be as active as possible. Being the first Sword may have hurt the village, since I wasn't able to organize people as much as I wanted, and honestly, from where I was sitting its hard to say if the game is really unbalanced or not. When there are so many complex mechanics at play, small decisions can cause such huge swings one way or the other. It seems like both sides of the field are saying that the other side may have been overpowered, so you can probably feel reasonably safe that it wasn't too off the rails.
Also, like Blarney said, you did a great job as a host, and I think people are usually willing to accept confusing mechanics, as long as the host does a good job.
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Thanks for hosting, Obi! I have to say it was a bit frustrating at times - Meditate was effectively a wasted action each night and without any other seerings it was difficult to play. I'm actually surprised the village did as good as they did. I only regret not having better aim as the Sword. Also I suppose having a sith padawan, I regret that too.
Also, I wish we had known which planets did what. I think we totally would have gone after Hoth - the ability to hide someone like the Sword or the Future there would have been amazing, given the sheer amount of unblockable kills making guarding nearly useless.
After looking through more info I really think the councils lack of communication regarding the abilities like mentor was damaging in the long run the sith knew how things worked right from the start and there was no reason to think otherwise, keeping that information from the village did nothing but hurt the ability to get confirmed people and build a real network.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Thanks for hosting, Obi! I have to say it was a bit frustrating at times - Meditate was effectively a wasted action each night and without any other seerings it was difficult to play. I'm actually surprised the village did as good as they did. I only regret not having better aim as the Sword. Also I suppose having a sith padawan, I regret that too.
Also, I wish we had known which planets did what. I think we totally would have gone after Hoth - the ability to hide someone like the Sword or the Future there would have been amazing, given the sheer amount of unblockable kills making guarding nearly useless.
I'm sorry I wasn't able to a better liaison to the world for you. I'm also totally mystified on how they figured out to target you.
Turns out they didn't know or care that I was the Sword - they killed me in an effort to get Figgy promoted.
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CayrusConsulFriends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!Registered Userregular
I take a lot of the blame for the village lose. As the holder of Fondor, I should have done more to organize the village. I also was sure the mafia were getting their extra kill from Hutta and directed my mission and Fondor's ability there every night.
Thanks Obi for hosting. I had fun, even if the game was too complex for me to get my head around.
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I unhid the rows on the tracking spreadsheet.
I am pleasantly surprised by all the non-raging happening in the end of game posting. Its making me very Seriously, you guys are making my day. And yeah, I doubt it was perfectly balanced. I knew that going in because, with all the interaction and stuff, I think without actually playtesting it I wouldn't see some of the balance issues. Post Game thoughts:
- I didn't communicate to the Council Members the reason for Protect. I should have hinted at the need to protect unsupported knights on missions, knights meditating, and padawans not supporting. I'm thinking had I hinted at it at least a little bit at first, it wouldn't have been as frustrating to always see guards not work against the unblockable stuff.
- Unblockable kills were necessary. The game lasted 8 days, without unblockable stuff, it could have gone on for like two weeks.
- Meditate was always supposed to be a smokescreen. Sorry! I figured that people would catch on to "19 players with a seer? Yeah, that will never work". It did serve the purpose of forcing the Sith to keep a member on the Council, which in turn forced the Succession lists to be a possible trace for Sith. Had the Jedi worked together on @matev's initial day one plan, it also would have narrowed down the search for the Knights that were Sith because the Sith could not emulate Meditate.
- Padawans were immediately cast to the wayside, which I found interesting. They were the ways that pairs could confirm things. They could also roleblock. But everyone above them was all, "Yeah, support and shut up." Which I'm sure teaches something on the sociological level, not sure what it is teaching though.
@Bedlam Yeah, you died because the attack that hit you was unblockable. Your power let you guard against unblockable stuff as long as you had two guards, only one Master guarded you last night. Had two guarded you, you would have survived and the game would have gone on for one more day...
@SaberOverEasy I think you were easily the MVP of the Jedi this game. You did alot of analysis on the galactic map and were responsible for outing like half of the Sith. Now that you see exactly how the Sith could influence the galactic map, how close were your theories?
@Mr. Mojo Risin Yeah, the council not telling everyone their mentor power was a pretty big deal in the long run. Had they revealed to the thread, I think more people would have thrown around the idea of getting you guys killed. Hiding that from the rest of the Order really only hurt the Jedi.
Hey obifett, what is the reasoning behind the whole seer thing? It seems weird to me to have it at all if it's completely invalidated by the mafia's powers.
Hey obifett, what is the reasoning behind the whole seer thing? It seems weird to me to have it at all if it's completely invalidated by the mafia's powers.
It's a trap!.gif
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Reasons for Meditate:
- Give the Sith a way to deceive and screw with the Jedi
- Force the Sith to keep a Lord on the Council. Which in turn forces the Sith on the Council to make their succession lists a valid way to flush out the other Sith
- Give the Jedi a way, if they worked as a team, to narrow down the teams with Sith on them. Had everyone meditated, the teams with a Sith Saber would have had padawans that didn't get results. There would have also been 4 other roleblocked padawans, leaving 8 teams in immediate suspicion of containing a Sith. Now the Jedi would have lost alot of ground on planets, but the initial info about where Sith were would have been helpful.
I am pleasantly surprised by all the non-raging happening in the end of game posting.
Well, I mean, I think most of the powers you gave the village were so opaque as to be useless. So, it's not all roses.
Yeah, Village really needed more info about the reason for their powers. Agreed 100%. And it was most definitely far from perfect.
But no one is saying "Damn it Obi, this was a giant waste of time and I hated it. You are grudged forever!" Which is what I feared I would hear when I first started this thing.
Well, I mean, I think most of the powers you gave the village were so opaque as to be useless. So, it's not all roses.
Yeah, Village really needed more info about the reason for their powers. Agreed 100%. And it was most definitely far from perfect.
On the other hand, if the village knew more about how their abilities worked, the interactions could have been quite devastating for the mafia and serial killer teams. I think it was fine to leave things for the village to try and figure out, as piecing together the mysteries is how the game works for the most part anyways.
Posts
Not if we don't have editing privileges.
Duh.
Will do that in the morning.
I fake revealed because I thought there might be busdrive shennanigans and that if they hit me I could survive.
@obifett Shouldnt I have survived my attack if it was only one? or does the hand have a superkill?
Still I killed schuss and figgy all on my own. Since I only became the future on day 6 and hadnt had much of soft network. And I suggested Mojo kill mascara since I suspected her from fracking day 2-3ish but could never be 100% sure about it. If I was 100% I would have killed her myself and wrote some dialog for a narration thing I had in mind. Oh well.
I think it would have helped if more than Kime was doing the talking. If you want to grudge someone, grudge yourselves :P
Here's your answer from Day 6:
So basically any Sabers/Hands were using Fulfill after the Council ended.
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
3DS: 2981-5304-3227
You weren't. :rotate:
Seriously, it was a VERY intense and fun game for me. I'm not sure if this is how they normally go, but it was fun. Several thoughts:
On Networking:
Dear god was networking impossible this game. Between the lack of seering, the SK and the conversion, it was impossible to ever be sure of anyone. Even when I could figure out that people definitely weren't Sith (like Ketbra, Jdarksun and Retaba), I could never be sure they weren't the serial killer or had been converted to the apprentice. And I also kept being wrong about who was and wasn't Sith, so in the end (and particularly after Assuran's reveal), I couldn't even be sure on that. That was the main reason I didn't reveal everyone in the network, is that I knew I'd been wrong and I especially couldn't be sure if there was an SK in it. I was hoping that everyone who I had specifically told I trusted (Ketbra, Warban, GG, Mojo, Cayrus, SNT and Retaba) would contact whichever one of them took over the network the next day. If I was wrong on one of them, they wouldn't necessarily know what I had told the others and would stay back from it. In hindsight, I really should have told Ketbra that Mojo was the sword and cayrus had the Fondor power. In the end, there was a lot of noob network head is noob.
From a design perspective, I'm not sure that zero seering and conversions can co-exist well in a game, especially with some RNGing clouding up the kills as well. Mentor would have been nice, but the Sith just refused to kill councilors. Though I will say that the SK helping out the village as much as they did (Thanks guys!) was a really interesting development. I'm not sure how intentional this was, but it was pretty cool to see the Dask lord taking out Sith masters when we needed them to.
On finding Sith:
It was really tough. The knights were a bit easier, as they normally had released their planet information. Knowing Infidel and Segatai weren't on Bothawui and Farangu wasn't on Nal Hutta made them stick out a bit more. The padawans were a lot harder. They could hide behind their knight not giving info, not giving information themselves, and just saying they trained. The masters were just as hard, since almost all of them were mentoring/protecting it was tough to catch one who wasn't doing what they were supposed to. For what it's worth, I think we as the council spent a bit too much time mentoring and not enough time protecting.
Even so, you totally should have voted out Kime last night
On a side note, I totally owe @Peccavi an apology. I should have known no Sith would have done that level of analysis, and had I not been distracted by RL and trying to post from a movie theater, this would have been obvious. I knew I was making assumptions on Sith power and needed another voice to take a look at things. If you want it, you are absolutely entitled to a "Free Grudge Vote for Saber" whenever you want it.
Overall, it was a fun game Obi! For my first phalla, it really was quite crazy. I would definitely appreciate any advice for the next time and look forward to jumping back in!
Kime pinged for me as uber suspicious when he claimed not to have read the council proboard after having commented on the color scheme straight after it was unlocked. But i was dead by then so couldnt say anything!
He was right though, a quiet village is a dead village, especially when you just then vote with the mafia doing all the talking.
Also there were some comments made that the padawans were ignored and cast aside, but it seems to me with their roleblocking power they had one of the most powerful weapons out there. I was speaking to my padawan from day one and was very surprised that not everyone was.
As for balance, I think you did a pretty amazing job for your first phalla. Heck, it's probably (read: definitely) more balanced than anything I have ever run. Not that that's saying much.
I'm totally going to second this. One of the reasons we had such a good day 3 was that we were finally able to roleblock several Sith (vert, farangu and segatai as I recall).
Also, at least two padawans (Bedlam and Grunt's Ghost) both expressed suspicion (rightly, as it turns out) about their knights not talking to them. One of my big take-aways from all of this is that a good villager talks, even when they are wrong and aren't sure what's going on.
@Shiny New Toys: I think we just decided to kill you because it seemed like you were getting more trusted/confirmed as time went on. And, well, we can't have that :P.
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Sucks to die so early, but I'm getting used to it haha
Ah well, it was a great game, nice work Kime.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Good job, though, my advice on that was basically "I am not very good at that part of the game, I'm much better at working the other side of the table. Voting records and looking for intent to mislead is the best bet. "
Honestly, I expected to take a back seat to everything since I only had intermittent internet access, and following phallas on my phone isn't fun, but the mechanics really made me WANT to be as active as possible. Being the first Sword may have hurt the village, since I wasn't able to organize people as much as I wanted, and honestly, from where I was sitting its hard to say if the game is really unbalanced or not. When there are so many complex mechanics at play, small decisions can cause such huge swings one way or the other. It seems like both sides of the field are saying that the other side may have been overpowered, so you can probably feel reasonably safe that it wasn't too off the rails.
Also, like Blarney said, you did a great job as a host, and I think people are usually willing to accept confusing mechanics, as long as the host does a good job.
Obi this is probably the most ambitious first phalla I've seen, and it worked pretty well. Kudos to you.
Chicago Megagame group
Watch me struggle to learn streaming! Point and laugh!
Also, I wish we had known which planets did what. I think we totally would have gone after Hoth - the ability to hide someone like the Sword or the Future there would have been amazing, given the sheer amount of unblockable kills making guarding nearly useless.
Turns out they didn't know or care that I was the Sword - they killed me in an effort to get Figgy promoted.
Thanks Obi for hosting. I had fun, even if the game was too complex for me to get my head around.
Henri Emmanuel Gratien St Pierre in Where No Man Has Gone Before
Lord Augustus Cumberbatch in Eclipse Phase
KIIIIIIIMMMMMEEEE
I am pleasantly surprised by all the non-raging happening in the end of game posting. Its making me very
- I didn't communicate to the Council Members the reason for Protect. I should have hinted at the need to protect unsupported knights on missions, knights meditating, and padawans not supporting. I'm thinking had I hinted at it at least a little bit at first, it wouldn't have been as frustrating to always see guards not work against the unblockable stuff.
- Unblockable kills were necessary. The game lasted 8 days, without unblockable stuff, it could have gone on for like two weeks.
- Meditate was always supposed to be a smokescreen. Sorry! I figured that people would catch on to "19 players with a seer? Yeah, that will never work". It did serve the purpose of forcing the Sith to keep a member on the Council, which in turn forced the Succession lists to be a possible trace for Sith. Had the Jedi worked together on @matev's initial day one plan, it also would have narrowed down the search for the Knights that were Sith because the Sith could not emulate Meditate.
- Padawans were immediately cast to the wayside, which I found interesting. They were the ways that pairs could confirm things. They could also roleblock. But everyone above them was all, "Yeah, support and shut up." Which I'm sure teaches something on the sociological level, not sure what it is teaching though.
@Bedlam Yeah, you died because the attack that hit you was unblockable. Your power let you guard against unblockable stuff as long as you had two guards, only one Master guarded you last night. Had two guarded you, you would have survived and the game would have gone on for one more day...
@SaberOverEasy I think you were easily the MVP of the Jedi this game. You did alot of analysis on the galactic map and were responsible for outing like half of the Sith. Now that you see exactly how the Sith could influence the galactic map, how close were your theories?
@Mr. Mojo Risin Yeah, the council not telling everyone their mentor power was a pretty big deal in the long run. Had they revealed to the thread, I think more people would have thrown around the idea of getting you guys killed. Hiding that from the rest of the Order really only hurt the Jedi.
It's a trap!.gif
- Give the Sith a way to deceive and screw with the Jedi
- Force the Sith to keep a Lord on the Council. Which in turn forces the Sith on the Council to make their succession lists a valid way to flush out the other Sith
- Give the Jedi a way, if they worked as a team, to narrow down the teams with Sith on them. Had everyone meditated, the teams with a Sith Saber would have had padawans that didn't get results. There would have also been 4 other roleblocked padawans, leaving 8 teams in immediate suspicion of containing a Sith. Now the Jedi would have lost alot of ground on planets, but the initial info about where Sith were would have been helpful.
Yeah, Village really needed more info about the reason for their powers. Agreed 100%. And it was most definitely far from perfect.
But no one is saying "Damn it Obi, this was a giant waste of time and I hated it. You are grudged forever!" Which is what I feared I would hear when I first started this thing.
I will agree on needing more info on powers, though.
From the Desk of Darth Vertroue Diplomat to the USA.
On the other hand, if the village knew more about how their abilities worked, the interactions could have been quite devastating for the mafia and serial killer teams. I think it was fine to leave things for the village to try and figure out, as piecing together the mysteries is how the game works for the most part anyways.