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Okami director disappointed: TP vs. WW-- Fight!

JimothyJimothy Not in front of the foxhe's with the owlRegistered User regular
edited March 2007 in Games and Technology
http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_item.php?1173195432

Okami Director "disappointed" by Zelda
3/6/2007, 10:37am Eastern Time

Link's world just isn't beautiful, according to one game producer.

Hideki Kamiya, director of Clover Studio's Okami, says that he was disappointed with the visual style of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. The director made the comments while accepting an Entertainment Award at the 10th Media Arts Festival, which is sponsored by Japan's Agency For Cultural Affairs. Kamiya says he was inspired to work on Okami largely because of the Zelda series, but was not impressed by the way Link's newest adventure looked.

Kamiya said nothing specifically bad about the title's gameplay. While Twilight Princess's more realistic visual style is nothing like Okami's stylized paintbrush graphics, the two games are often compared to one another because of the prominence of lupine player characters and puzzle-oriented adventure gameplay.

(adr)

Source: Joystiq.com


I kind of agree. The very first TP trailer did leave me dissappointed, since I liked Wind Waker a lot, and I felt that Nintendo was "giving in" to the trendy American audience instead of having some great artistic vision for the game, as if they were acknowledging some alleged mistake on their part. And relegating the WW look to handheld games seems to be continue on this path, since many gamers consider console games as "real" games, and the portable outings as sidestories or less important.

Still, I got used to TP's graphics and accept the game for what it is. I can see that the direction they took was a good one. Still, one of the biggest complaints was that the graphics weren't that great. If they had gone the cel-shaded route, they wouldn't have that problem. WW's never going to look old, as far as I can tell.

I wonder, why isn't cel-shading used a lot more? Here we have this great way to cover up polygons, and make a game look timeless and stylized, but most people look down in it.

Jimothy on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, there's the whole "cartoony" thing. Some games do cel-shading, or similar things very well, but sometimes it just looks dumb.

    Either way, I agree that TP was less than stellar from a style standpoint.

    Vincent Grayson on
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    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.

    Magic Pink on
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    Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I prefered it over WW, at least.

    Magus` on
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    BlazeHedgehogBlazeHedgehog Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.


    I don't see how that makes sense. The Twilight Realm was... added lightbloom + an orange/purple tint, for the most part.

    BlazeHedgehog on
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    Eight RooksEight Rooks Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.


    I don't see how that makes sense. The Twilight Realm was... added lightbloom + an orange/purple tint, for the most part.

    Yes... and he thought it was gorgeous. What about that doesn't make sense?

    Eight Rooks on
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hey at least Zelda's engine was able to support more than four enemies at once. And when you were fighting, you weren't trapped in a ten square foot area.

    deadonthestreet on
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    BlazeHedgehogBlazeHedgehog Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.


    I don't see how that makes sense. The Twilight Realm was... added lightbloom + an orange/purple tint, for the most part.

    Yes... and he thought it was gorgeous. What about that doesn't make sense?

    Muddy + Purple + Lightbloom = Gorgeous?

    BlazeHedgehog on
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    Eight RooksEight Rooks Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.


    I don't see how that makes sense. The Twilight Realm was... added lightbloom + an orange/purple tint, for the most part.

    Yes... and he thought it was gorgeous. What about that doesn't make sense?

    Muddy + Purple + Lightbloom = Gorgeous?

    Yes in his case at least? No accounting for taste and all that.

    Though I haven't seen more than a few screens, myself. Just saying.

    Eight Rooks on
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    ZephosZephos Climbin in yo ski lifts, snatchin your people up. MichiganRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    in my opinion, if this guy wants to gripe about any games art direction, he has the right.

    okami is pretty much the most beautiful game i have ever seen. i have never wanted to "live" in a world like i did with that game.

    Zephos on
    Xbox One/360: Penguin McCool
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    apotheosapotheos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2007
    So while accepting an award, he slams another game?

    Thats some class.

    apotheos on


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    JimothyJimothy Not in front of the fox he's with the owlRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, there's the whole "cartoony" thing. Some games do cel-shading, or similar things very well, but sometimes it just looks dumb.

    Either way, I agree that TP was less than stellar from a style standpoint.

    Does cel-shading necessitate a cartoony style? I don't know, and I'm really curious.

    At the very least, the enemies in WW looked amazing-- everything from Gohma to Bokoblins. Ganon never looked cooler, and neither him nor the King looked cartoony. Really, Link and Zelda's models were the only negatives of the whole game, from a graphics standpoint.

    Jimothy on
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    RealityReality Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    apotheos wrote: »
    So while accepting an award, he slams another game?

    Thats some class.

    Heh. Not just any game, but a series that he obviously drew heavily upon for the game he's been givin the award for.

    That's a whole different level of class.

    As far as why don't more games us cel shading? For the most part it's still seen as "kiddy". : (

    I've got friends who won't even play crackdown. "GTA as a cartoon huh? Gay" - direct quote.

    I didn't say they were intelligent friends...

    Reality on
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    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yeah, it didn't do a lot for me either. It was very muddy and sort of boring. The twilight period lighting was gorgeous tho; it pained me to know I was adventuring to get rid of it.


    I don't see how that makes sense. The Twilight Realm was... added lightbloom + an orange/purple tint, for the most part.

    Yes... and he thought it was gorgeous. What about that doesn't make sense?

    Muddy + Purple + Lightbloom = Gorgeous?

    Yes in his case at least? No accounting for taste and all that.

    Though I haven't seen more than a few screens, myself. Just saying.

    omg bitch!

    Whatever. I thought it was neat.

    Magic Pink on
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    Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hyrule looked fine to me; I like the realistic look over the artsy look of WW. As for Okami, that style is apparently lost on me. To each their own.

    Capt Howdy on
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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Oh, wow! I was dissapointed in Okami!

    Funny how things like that work out!

    Furu on
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    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Magic Pink on
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    ZephosZephos Climbin in yo ski lifts, snatchin your people up. MichiganRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    yeah, Okami, i wouldnt even call it cell shaded.

    Its like you fell asleep and woke up in a Hokusai painting.

    Zephos on
    Xbox One/360: Penguin McCool
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    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Jimothy wrote: »

    Does cel-shading necessitate a cartoony style? I don't know, and I'm really curious.


    It makes the unwashed and stupid CALL it a cartoon and, thus, for kiddies which hurts sales. That's the problem.

    Magic Pink on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a style.

    Couscous on
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    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Magic Pink on
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    XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Okami I find far prettier than Zelda's fantasy-mush.

    Xagarath on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Most of the crap that is called realistic isn't realistic at all.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Millet_Gleaners.jpg
    Call this boring, and I will cut you.

    Couscous on
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    Mace1370Mace1370 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Most of the crap that is called realistic isn't realistic at all.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Millet_Gleaners.jpg
    Call this boring, and I will cut you.

    That's pretty boring...

    Mace1370 on
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    Neo RasaNeo Rasa Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Most of the crap that is called realistic isn't realistic at all.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Millet_Gleaners.jpg
    Call this boring, and I will cut you.

    A game done in realism would look anything but. What I believe he's referring to though is how games that go for a "realistic" look do so by adding more polygons and more shaders instead of worrying about animation quality, lighting quality (dur just throw in a ton of bloom, okay done), texture detail, and the other aspects that actually make the imagery look natural instead of just looking great as a still image. All the "realistic" games out there screenshot great but often fall apart when in motion.

    Neo Rasa on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Why is it wrong to like both...? :P

    Shadowfire on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Most of the crap that is called realistic isn't realistic at all.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Millet_Gleaners.jpg
    Call this boring, and I will cut you.

    A game that looked like that would be pretty cool looking.

    Pata on
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    JimothyJimothy Not in front of the fox he's with the owlRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Mace1370 wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I loved the art in Okami heaps and piles more then Zelda. Zelda was merely trying to be realistic while Okami was actually going for a style. A style that felt... edible if that makes any sense.

    Too bad the would-be rapist cricket dude made me quit in disgust. I will go back to it tho; THIS I SWEARS.

    Realism is a boring style.

    Fixed ho ho

    Most of the crap that is called realistic isn't realistic at all.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Millet_Gleaners.jpg
    Call this boring, and I will cut you.

    That's pretty boring...

    I liked it.

    Jimothy on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Twilight Princess looked great. It just lacked artistic flair.

    AbsoluteZero on
    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    apotheos wrote: »
    So while accepting an award, he slams another game?

    Thats some class.
    Apparently in Japan they have question and answer sessions at these awards ceremonies. Crazy peoples.

    Anyway, I liked they style of TP and WW both. Both very different visually, both kinda the same visually too.

    DigDug2000 on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    TP had artistic style, in the same way that Fable and WoW have artistic style, it just didn't rely on a rendering trick to perform.

    Daedalus on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Jimothy wrote: »
    Well, there's the whole "cartoony" thing. Some games do cel-shading, or similar things very well, but sometimes it just looks dumb.

    Either way, I agree that TP was less than stellar from a style standpoint.

    Does cel-shading necessitate a cartoony style? I don't know, and I'm really curious.

    It can be used for other styles as well.

    Unless I remember incorrectly, XIII was cel-chaded and it looked like a comic book. Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance used cel shading and didn't look like a cartoon.

    Other games to use cel shading and not look kiddie/cartoony/whatever:
    Jet Set Radio
    Jet Set Radio Future
    Killer 7
    Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
    X-Men Legends series

    jclast on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    TP had artistic style, in the same way that Fable and WoW have artistic style, it just didn't rely on a rendering trick to perform.

    How is a cel shader more of a trick than, say, a plastic shader? It's a stylistic choice.

    jclast on
    camo_sig2.png
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    BeckBeck Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I don't know, Fable and WoW have a very distinctive art style, where I found Zelda to look fairly bland most of the time. It just looks...really lifeless. A lot of animations were terrible (swinging with the monkeys looked horrible), and the lighting could be really sloppy.

    It's still Zelda, and it's still really fun, but it doesn't look very unique.

    Beck on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    TP had artistic style, in the same way that Fable and WoW have artistic style, it just didn't rely on a rendering trick to perform.

    Yeah. It had a style: bland dirty and boring. It lacked flair.



    Pretend Jennifer Aniston is Twilight Princess.

    jennifer_aniston2.jpg

    AbsoluteZero on
    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Beck wrote: »
    I don't know, Fable and WoW have a very distinctive art style, where I found Zelda to look fairly bland most of the time. It just looks...really lifeless. A lot of animations were terrible (swinging with the monkeys looked horrible), and the lighting could be really sloppy.

    It's still Zelda, and it's still really fun, but it doesn't look very unique.

    The animations could have used some work in parts, but the models really spoke the somewhere-between-LotR-and-Narnia fantasy look that I'm pretty sure they would have done in OoT if they had the processing power at the time.

    edit: In particular I found
    the ice battle against the Yeti woman
    to be quite amazing.

    Daedalus on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I would love a mixture of Twilight Princess and Wind Waker.

    God would a game like that be gorgeous.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    corcorigancorcorigan Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I though TP was really rather pretty. Was happy it ran so well on my GC, probably the prettiest game I have on there.

    corcorigan on
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    ShujaaShujaa Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    If anyone has the right to criticise another game's art style, it's this guy.

    He's fucking earned it.

    Shujaa on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Shujaa wrote: »
    If anyone has the right to criticise another game's art style, it's this guy.

    He's fucking earned it.

    Doesn't really need to be part of an acceptance speech.... I think he's a bit of a dink for doing that.

    AbsoluteZero on
    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    FirebrandFirebrand Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Twilight Princess looked great. It just lacked artistic flair.

    I feel the opposite; the art design in TP is the best in the series. And I didn't care much for the mega-bloom of the Twilight realm.

    It'd be interesting to see TP's artwork in a celshaded setting, to give it a bit of an anime look.

    Firebrand on
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