all random just means the more experienced people who have played more characters have just a big advantage
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
I think my favorite thing about LoL has always been the transparency of skilled gameplay
players, guides, and devs will gladly tell you how to properly play and build heroes
But I feel like the closer you look, the less clear it gets. Because depending which site you look at and which guides therein, or which streamer you listen to, what elo you're at, what phase of the moon it is, there's rarely a single "build like this" answer that never changes. Items seem to rise and fall in popularity all the time. And no matter how much research you put into, someone's still going to call you a noob at some point for not building the same way he would.
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
edited May 2012
Or in the case of my awful solo Olaf vs. Garen/Fizz game, your jungle Renekton will tell you to kill yourself, which will be heartily endorsed by solo mid Jax.
The community seems a bit fractured on the basis of skill.
Just gave logged into this game after about a month. Guess I chose the wrong day, since the new champ seems to be killing everyone for free every game.
I don't know exactly how he works, but apparently he has a nuke that hits for half a tanks health on a short CD.
Oh, looked it up. It's just a Cho'gath feast with actual scaling that he gets to use 5 times a teamfight. Fun!
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Yeah, it's just a self-recharging true damage bladesurge nuke.
A solution to your painhouse problems- people under 1200 ELO pick what they want, anyone over has to random.
I like this idea. Of course, I'm under 1200 elo and always will be, since I don't do ranked. Maybe # of wins instead? Like >700 or some such?
Another idea I had would involve a little more work for the folks organizing; have each game get a random 'theme' to it. There are 6 games generally, so we'd need to come up with a dozen or so themes. All ranged, all mage, all melee, all random, blind pick, draft, all yordle, color wars (red champs vs purple champs). Eight modes, have it SR or Dominion for 16, add ARAM or ARAB for 18. Roll a d20 for each match and that's what the game is for that match.
Kat and Darius on the same team has some horrifying pubstomping power
On a related note, I still haven't figured out how to run Orianna in mid. I either get bullied out of lane, or stay in lane and die. Didn't help that Kat was doing a great job of dodging my Q, either.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
A solution to your painhouse problems- people under 1200 ELO pick what they want, anyone over has to random.
I like this idea. Of course, I'm under 1200 elo and always will be, since I don't do ranked. Maybe # of wins instead? Like >700 or some such?
Another idea I had would involve a little more work for the folks organizing; have each game get a random 'theme' to it. There are 6 games generally, so we'd need to come up with a dozen or so themes. All ranged, all mage, all melee, all random, blind pick, draft, all yordle, color wars (red champs vs purple champs). Eight modes, have it SR or Dominion for 16, add ARAM or ARAB for 18. Roll a d20 for each match and that's what the game is for that match.
Straight up: If you've got an idea like for a better way to handle this stuff and really want to see it happen, the best thing to do is work it up yourself and run it by people here in the thread. That one's pretty good, but if you just throw it out there it's going to float around like space debris and never land.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Guys for some reason I cannot seem to lane against Wukong. I can't think of another top champ I have consist trouble with. It wouldn't be a problem if I only saw him once in a while but he seems to be picked just about every other game that I go top.
What is the best way to play against him? Who works well against him?
A solution to your painhouse problems- people under 1200 ELO pick what they want, anyone over has to random.
I like this idea. Of course, I'm under 1200 elo and always will be, since I don't do ranked. Maybe # of wins instead? Like >700 or some such?
Another idea I had would involve a little more work for the folks organizing; have each game get a random 'theme' to it. There are 6 games generally, so we'd need to come up with a dozen or so themes. All ranged, all mage, all melee, all random, blind pick, draft, all yordle, color wars (red champs vs purple champs). Eight modes, have it SR or Dominion for 16, add ARAM or ARAB for 18. Roll a d20 for each match and that's what the game is for that match.
Straight up: If you've got an idea like for a better way to handle this stuff and really want to see it happen, the best thing to do is work it up yourself and run it by people here in the thread. That one's pretty good, but if you just throw it out there it's going to float around like space debris and never land.
*chuckle * that's what I thought I was doing. I worked up an idea and was running it by people in the thread.
Soon... soon I will install you, my precious.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
A solution to your painhouse problems- people under 1200 ELO pick what they want, anyone over has to random.
I like this idea. Of course, I'm under 1200 elo and always will be, since I don't do ranked. Maybe # of wins instead? Like >700 or some such?
Another idea I had would involve a little more work for the folks organizing; have each game get a random 'theme' to it. There are 6 games generally, so we'd need to come up with a dozen or so themes. All ranged, all mage, all melee, all random, blind pick, draft, all yordle, color wars (red champs vs purple champs). Eight modes, have it SR or Dominion for 16, add ARAM or ARAB for 18. Roll a d20 for each match and that's what the game is for that match.
Straight up: If you've got an idea like for a better way to handle this stuff and really want to see it happen, the best thing to do is work it up yourself and run it by people here in the thread. That one's pretty good, but if you just throw it out there it's going to float around like space debris and never land.
*chuckle * that's what I thought I was doing. I worked up an idea and was running it by people in the thread.
Yeah, I mean in detail, with presentation and such. You're still at the "we'd need to..." phase; we're all here to do this for fun, so you need to get past that one yourself is what I'm saying.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
There is nothing you can do with the champion pick format that can prevent uneven skill matchups. When we did random, people complained that other people got randomed into champs they knew how to play. Really the only method that can produce the most even teams are captains exhaustively looking the listed player skill and champion pool in the spreadsheet and coming up with a draft order beforehand.
Kat and Darius on the same team has some horrifying pubstomping power
On a related note, I still haven't figured out how to run Orianna in mid. I either get bullied out of lane, or stay in lane and die. Didn't help that Kat was doing a great job of dodging my Q, either.
when i'm orianna mid i like getting a philo stone and if it's a tough lane i grab two points in E early on for the extra free magic resist
objective is mostly to farm and try to zone until you're level 13/14 and have maxed Q and W
she really needs levels more than most mids, who are all set at level 9
also i wouldn't pick orianna unless my team had a melee cc and a gap closer, like wukong, or alistar
someone that can set up her ult because i'm a scrub, basically
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Kat and Darius on the same team has some horrifying pubstomping power
On a related note, I still haven't figured out how to run Orianna in mid. I either get bullied out of lane, or stay in lane and die. Didn't help that Kat was doing a great job of dodging my Q, either.
Kat's an awful champ to lane against for Orianna because she has a resource-less reposition. There is really nothing you can do to her with your main skills, so what you need to do instead is bait out some of hers and then get her with some shielded/speeded AA harass.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
There is a pretty good chance that they will own some of them... And if a stable "stable" is settled on, they can grab 2-3 of them fairly easily. Or it could be "any hero under 3000 IP" or anything.
There are ways to make an attempt to balance out skilled players with people who don't have that level of skil without too much work.
Or don't.
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
all random just means the more experienced people who have played more characters have just a big advantage
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
1) You can't create a balanced system: Even the matchmaking system which pulls people of relatively the same skill ranges produces blowouts
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
As far as I can see, the primary problem seems to be that some people on PA can't handle losing in a friendly match or the personalities and play styles are incompatible in some area
/topic change
I'm watching a Garena Taiwan tourney livestream on Twitch, and even the Taiwanese casters are talking shit about Hotshot's jungle. Namely that his Alistar not being able to hit 1 out of 10 headbutt/pulverize combos.
Also, they do PIP replays of fights that happened while the camera was focused elsewhere, which is a great idea.
Zyrxil on
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
There is a pretty good chance that they will own some of them... And if a stable "stable" is settled on, they can grab 2-3 of them fairly easily. Or it could be "any hero under 3000 IP" or anything.
There are ways to make an attempt to balance out skilled players with people who don't have that level of skil without too much work.
all random just means the more experienced people who have played more characters have just a big advantage
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
1) You can't create a balanced system: Even the matchmaking system which pulls people of relatively the same skill ranges produces blowouts
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
As far as I can see, the primary problem seems to be that some people on PA can't handle losing in a friendly match or the personalities and play styles are incompatible in some area
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
No matter what changes, Goum's right, and putting it pretty concisely above. You can't simultaneously make everyone happy nor guarantee good games every time. We can, however, try something else. Flesh out an alternative, keep it simple, and it may get some traction.
I'm okay with it, was a blast with of a game. One must earn a penta :winky: , being given a penta would just not be the same
That was fun. You were way too tough a customer top considering the margaritas earlier though.
re: all random, It's not make or break for me, but I like AR personally because I like being able to play champs out of my top 10 and still be competitive.
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
That's a gross exaggeration. AR matches are almost never decided at champ select. Our second match, with Eve + 2 supports + 2 AP was the closest you can come, and it was still not insignificantly our play that lost us the game.
Which, we've fixed in the future, because we implemented a "You can reroll Eve picks" rule.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
There is a pretty good chance that they will own some of them... And if a stable "stable" is settled on, they can grab 2-3 of them fairly easily. Or it could be "any hero under 3000 IP" or anything.
There are ways to make an attempt to balance out skilled players with people who don't have that level of skil without too much work.
all random just means the more experienced people who have played more characters have just a big advantage
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
1) You can't create a balanced system: Even the matchmaking system which pulls people of relatively the same skill ranges produces blowouts
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
As far as I can see, the primary problem seems to be that some people on PA can't handle losing in a friendly match or the personalities and play styles are incompatible in some area
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
No matter what changes, Goum's right, and putting it pretty concisely above. You can't simultaneously make everyone happy nor guarantee good games every time. We can, however, try something else. Flesh out an alternative, keep it simple, and it may get some traction.
No, you're 100% right. No one should brainstorm or present ideas because change might result from it. The correct response is always to crush any idea with "it won't be a perfect fix" and "there is no perfect fix and there are no options and you shouldn't post unless you have a perfect fix... in which case see the previous set of quotes!"
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Just gave logged into this game after about a month. Guess I chose the wrong day, since the new champ seems to be killing everyone for free every game.
I've played a number of games since he's come out and I don't think I've seen him once outside the first time I picked him and ended up solo top against Volibear and Darius.
Won in the end, but that lane was brutal.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
What about having an open roster of ~6 heros that under 1000s are allowed to pick from? No one too OP or strong, but something like:
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
There is a pretty good chance that they will own some of them... And if a stable "stable" is settled on, they can grab 2-3 of them fairly easily. Or it could be "any hero under 3000 IP" or anything.
There are ways to make an attempt to balance out skilled players with people who don't have that level of skil without too much work.
all random just means the more experienced people who have played more characters have just a big advantage
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
1) You can't create a balanced system: Even the matchmaking system which pulls people of relatively the same skill ranges produces blowouts
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
As far as I can see, the primary problem seems to be that some people on PA can't handle losing in a friendly match or the personalities and play styles are incompatible in some area
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
No matter what changes, Goum's right, and putting it pretty concisely above. You can't simultaneously make everyone happy nor guarantee good games every time. We can, however, try something else. Flesh out an alternative, keep it simple, and it may get some traction.
No, you're 100% right. No one should brainstorm or present ideas because change might result from it. The correct response is always to crush any idea with "it won't be a perfect fix" and "there is no perfect fix and there are no options and you shouldn't post unless you have a perfect fix... in which case see the previous set of quotes!"
Nope. I'll re-state this one more time: If any of you have an idea for how Painhouse ought to run, finish your idea, because people have varying amounts of attention and effort they're willing to put into discussing the affair. If you want to see it given a try, figure out what the rule-set is and how it'd work. Write that up and post it, then advocate for it to be used next week. This isn't anyone's job to fix, it's strictly on a volunteer basis, so volunteer yourself if you think you've got the answer.
The notion of a selection pool for people under a certain Elo is fine, but there are over 90 champions in the game and tastes differ. You'd like to try creating a pool of selectables? Great, write up the pool. I wasn't trying to dismiss your suggestion, and I'm sorry if it read that way, but what I pointed out is a pretty real issue with having a pool: Some dude might only own Ziggs, and Ziggs might not be in there. Hell, Riot's done some of the work for you with the free rotation; you could just borrow that.
@A-Puck wants to try a table of special rulesets we randomize? Write up the table. That kind of thing. We didn't get a summoner info form or those spreadsheets by circumstance or thinking they might be a good idea, we got them because someone made them.
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
We are offering a resolution- stop trying crazy things and just go back to drafting teams & non-random normal draft play. Since random is producing less fun and less turnout, it's crazy not to go back to what we were doing before.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
We are offering a resolution- stop trying crazy things and just go back to drafting teams & non-random normal draft play. Since random is producing less fun and less turnout, it's crazy not to go back to what we were doing before.
Sure. Plenty of people would like to go back to draft, and you'll notice I haven't suggested that that idea be fleshed-out; it doesn't need it. I'm trying to address the broader "What if we did X vague thing instead," suggestions, here, some of which honestly look like fun to me. I'm tentatively in favor of and would get a kick out of Puck's table notion, personally, but it's not finished until I can actually roll that d20.
Just to have said it, I'm honestly not sure random is producing less turnout or fun. We had pretty substantial fun issues while we were drafting, too, largely because of the nature of League of Legends itself. Whether draft would produce more or less fun is unclear, and, personally - because God knows I'm not sitting here with veto power - I'd be happy to go back to that next week. I have had at least two profoundly unpleasant rounds when I've showed up for these as -AR games.
So I just did my first game as Nocturne jungle. I was bad. All the terrifying ganks I see other Noc junglers pull off were not present for me. Maybe a small part of it was our top/bot were dominating their lanes and pushing them, and our mid was a Gragas who was just pants on head retarded, but at least half of it was me being a noob at Noc.
AR is not the issue. The issue is that people take it way too seriously and are way to upset if they are not winning.
There weer a couple games lat night where people gave up at champ select because of team comp when they really could have made it work.
That being said I don't care WHAT we do as I just show up for the fun. If the rule is all boots I'll still play/cast because I really don't care one whit about whether I win or lose, just about playing with PA people and having a fun time.
Example: I got randomed into yi in the bonus game last night. I don't play Yi, I have MAYBE played him once in a custom game and certainly never as a jungler. So I just went with it and did atrociously but still had a blast. I literally had no idea what I was doing. If you guys want a serious competition we can try and put together some sort of league with stats and numbers where we force the teams to be completely balanced. But that's not really the point of the PAinhouses. The point was to just have people in PA play against eachother for fun.
Heck the only reason we departed from draft pick was because there was even MORE complaining about imbalances when it was draft.
In short stop complaining people this is supposed to be fun and light hearted
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
I'm okay with it, was a blast with of a game. One must earn a penta :winky: , being given a penta would just not be the same
That was fun. You were way too tough a customer top considering the margaritas earlier though.
re: all random, It's not make or break for me, but I like AR personally because I like being able to play champs out of my top 10 and still be competitive.
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
That's a gross exaggeration. AR matches are almost never decided at champ select. Our second match, with Eve + 2 supports + 2 AP was the closest you can come, and it was still not insignificantly our play that lost us the game.
Which, we've fixed in the future, because we implemented a "You can reroll Eve picks" rule.
Not really. Draft games follow a predictable pattern wherein early picks get choice of champions but later picks get choice of counters. This reduces the variability in team composition and strength which you find in random or blind pick situations. For random it reduces such variability because it allows opposing teams to pick in concert with the synergies that the enemy team is building whereas a team in random that lands with synergies will be significantly stronger than a team that does not, or a team that does not have ways to counter said synergies. It is the same with blind pick except that as each team picks their own synergy and playstyle, since you cannot see the enemy teams playstyle as they pick, this increases the chances that your team will be unprepared for it.
"sometimes random produces close matches" does not mean that it, in general, does compared to draft pick. "Random matches have the same expected value for wins/losses as draft pick" does not mean that it has the same variability.
If we assume that the two teams do not have the same skill level in general things get worse for random, since better players are more likely to have more experience at a number of different roles, and are more able to transfer to those roles when its necessary. If both sides get a poor or unfamiliar team composition the team which is generally better at the game has an even larger advantage than normal compared to the two teams competing in areas which are more familiar.
Random even makes things worse for the newer/worse players since it makes them less likely to be able to play their best characters and they're likely to be relatively worse at their worst characters than a highly skilled player. This probably makes the game less fun for them, or at the very least, makes them a weaker link in the team, which better players will exploit by instinct in many situations.
_________________________
A better solution than random which also allows players to pick champions on their lower tier list might be a global ban list of some of the more popular champions or simply a soft request to the better players to not play their best champions
A global ban list is problematic because weaker players will tend to popular champions to learn before less popular champions. So while we might not want Talith to play Riven we don't care if I play Riven and so banning Riven may prevent me from playing my sub top 10 without really hindering my actual top 10.
A soft request is not the best if its not followed, and we don't have good guidelines as to when "you're good enough that you should not be playing your best champions".
I think a better option would be this: In each match, if the other team chooses, they can request two champions per person that that specific person cannot play. This means you can ban out Talith's riven without wasting a regular ban on Riven, and without failing to ban Studio from playing Janna even if you don't think playing against Janna is such a bad thing.
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Yeah, I honestly thought you'd get me, but I wasn't about to make it easy. That was a super-satisfying result though.
or you have 20 seconds to try and swap with someone who doesn't have jungle runes
By all means, if you want to spend time and effort to create a balanced system, I say we also start a weekend tourney! The thing is, a few people set up for Thursday Painhouses, and that's what's rolling right now. If somebody wants to put something else together, I'll happily advertise it on the OP.
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I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
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But I feel like the closer you look, the less clear it gets. Because depending which site you look at and which guides therein, or which streamer you listen to, what elo you're at, what phase of the moon it is, there's rarely a single "build like this" answer that never changes. Items seem to rise and fall in popularity all the time. And no matter how much research you put into, someone's still going to call you a noob at some point for not building the same way he would.
The community seems a bit fractured on the basis of skill.
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I don't know exactly how he works, but apparently he has a nuke that hits for half a tanks health on a short CD.
Oh, looked it up. It's just a Cho'gath feast with actual scaling that he gets to use 5 times a teamfight. Fun!
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I like this idea. Of course, I'm under 1200 elo and always will be, since I don't do ranked. Maybe # of wins instead? Like >700 or some such?
Another idea I had would involve a little more work for the folks organizing; have each game get a random 'theme' to it. There are 6 games generally, so we'd need to come up with a dozen or so themes. All ranged, all mage, all melee, all random, blind pick, draft, all yordle, color wars (red champs vs purple champs). Eight modes, have it SR or Dominion for 16, add ARAM or ARAB for 18. Roll a d20 for each match and that's what the game is for that match.
On a related note, I still haven't figured out how to run Orianna in mid. I either get bullied out of lane, or stay in lane and die. Didn't help that Kat was doing a great job of dodging my Q, either.
Straight up: If you've got an idea like for a better way to handle this stuff and really want to see it happen, the best thing to do is work it up yourself and run it by people here in the thread. That one's pretty good, but if you just throw it out there it's going to float around like space debris and never land.
What is the best way to play against him? Who works well against him?
Thanks.
*chuckle * that's what I thought I was doing. I worked up an idea and was running it by people in the thread.
Yeah, I mean in detail, with presentation and such. You're still at the "we'd need to..." phase; we're all here to do this for fun, so you need to get past that one yourself is what I'm saying.
Sona
Tristana
Warwick
Ryze
Malphite
Pantheon
This isn't a perfect list, but this gives some of the lower-level players common heros that aren't super-expensive as fallbacks while others random; it also makes having 1 lowbie on the team (at least) semi-desireable as they fill in a picked hero around the randoms.
Thoughts @Hargaad of Omnar
And everyone else ofc?
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
They won't all own 'em.
clarity
alt: ROA and beg for blue
objective is mostly to farm and try to zone until you're level 13/14 and have maxed Q and W
she really needs levels more than most mids, who are all set at level 9
also i wouldn't pick orianna unless my team had a melee cc and a gap closer, like wukong, or alistar
someone that can set up her ult because i'm a scrub, basically
There is a pretty good chance that they will own some of them... And if a stable "stable" is settled on, they can grab 2-3 of them fairly easily. Or it could be "any hero under 3000 IP" or anything.
There are ways to make an attempt to balance out skilled players with people who don't have that level of skil without too much work.
Or don't.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
1) You can't create a balanced system: Even the matchmaking system which pulls people of relatively the same skill ranges produces blowouts
2) You can only create a fun system: Random matches which play on the standard map aren't fun for a lot of people. This is because they see the game as over before it starts, because there is nothing to learn when you get hard randomed into a counter, and you have no clue whether or not the opposing team was competitive against the current meta. Moreso than in draft games, this is the case in a random game.
As far as I can see, the primary problem seems to be that some people on PA can't handle losing in a friendly match or the personalities and play styles are incompatible in some area
I'm watching a Garena Taiwan tourney livestream on Twitch, and even the Taiwanese casters are talking shit about Hotshot's jungle. Namely that his Alistar not being able to hit 1 out of 10 headbutt/pulverize combos.
Also, they do PIP replays of fights that happened while the camera was focused elsewhere, which is a great idea.
And again, if you think you've got a better idea, work it out and give us the means to implement it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, but there are two responses to not liking how Painhouse night is working out that produce a resolution: stop showing up or conceive of a better way yourself and put it out there, completed, for people to see. Filling the thread with half-finished thoughts and intimations that "this could be better," doesn't actually produce a change, particularly if what's going to keep happening come 8 pm Thursday is that people hang out being diffident until schuss arrives or someone else says: "We're doing this. Go."
No matter what changes, Goum's right, and putting it pretty concisely above. You can't simultaneously make everyone happy nor guarantee good games every time. We can, however, try something else. Flesh out an alternative, keep it simple, and it may get some traction.
That was fun. You were way too tough a customer top considering the margaritas earlier though.
re: all random, It's not make or break for me, but I like AR personally because I like being able to play champs out of my top 10 and still be competitive.
That's a gross exaggeration. AR matches are almost never decided at champ select. Our second match, with Eve + 2 supports + 2 AP was the closest you can come, and it was still not insignificantly our play that lost us the game.
Which, we've fixed in the future, because we implemented a "You can reroll Eve picks" rule.
No, you're 100% right. No one should brainstorm or present ideas because change might result from it. The correct response is always to crush any idea with "it won't be a perfect fix" and "there is no perfect fix and there are no options and you shouldn't post unless you have a perfect fix... in which case see the previous set of quotes!"
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I've played a number of games since he's come out and I don't think I've seen him once outside the first time I picked him and ended up solo top against Volibear and Darius.
Won in the end, but that lane was brutal.
Nope. I'll re-state this one more time: If any of you have an idea for how Painhouse ought to run, finish your idea, because people have varying amounts of attention and effort they're willing to put into discussing the affair. If you want to see it given a try, figure out what the rule-set is and how it'd work. Write that up and post it, then advocate for it to be used next week. This isn't anyone's job to fix, it's strictly on a volunteer basis, so volunteer yourself if you think you've got the answer.
The notion of a selection pool for people under a certain Elo is fine, but there are over 90 champions in the game and tastes differ. You'd like to try creating a pool of selectables? Great, write up the pool. I wasn't trying to dismiss your suggestion, and I'm sorry if it read that way, but what I pointed out is a pretty real issue with having a pool: Some dude might only own Ziggs, and Ziggs might not be in there. Hell, Riot's done some of the work for you with the free rotation; you could just borrow that.
@A-Puck wants to try a table of special rulesets we randomize? Write up the table. That kind of thing. We didn't get a summoner info form or those spreadsheets by circumstance or thinking they might be a good idea, we got them because someone made them.
We are offering a resolution- stop trying crazy things and just go back to drafting teams & non-random normal draft play. Since random is producing less fun and less turnout, it's crazy not to go back to what we were doing before.
Sure. Plenty of people would like to go back to draft, and you'll notice I haven't suggested that that idea be fleshed-out; it doesn't need it. I'm trying to address the broader "What if we did X vague thing instead," suggestions, here, some of which honestly look like fun to me. I'm tentatively in favor of and would get a kick out of Puck's table notion, personally, but it's not finished until I can actually roll that d20.
Just to have said it, I'm honestly not sure random is producing less turnout or fun. We had pretty substantial fun issues while we were drafting, too, largely because of the nature of League of Legends itself. Whether draft would produce more or less fun is unclear, and, personally - because God knows I'm not sitting here with veto power - I'd be happy to go back to that next week. I have had at least two profoundly unpleasant rounds when I've showed up for these as -AR games.
There weer a couple games lat night where people gave up at champ select because of team comp when they really could have made it work.
That being said I don't care WHAT we do as I just show up for the fun. If the rule is all boots I'll still play/cast because I really don't care one whit about whether I win or lose, just about playing with PA people and having a fun time.
Example: I got randomed into yi in the bonus game last night. I don't play Yi, I have MAYBE played him once in a custom game and certainly never as a jungler. So I just went with it and did atrociously but still had a blast. I literally had no idea what I was doing. If you guys want a serious competition we can try and put together some sort of league with stats and numbers where we force the teams to be completely balanced. But that's not really the point of the PAinhouses. The point was to just have people in PA play against eachother for fun.
Heck the only reason we departed from draft pick was because there was even MORE complaining about imbalances when it was draft.
In short stop complaining people this is supposed to be fun and light hearted
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this some kind of new slang for diablo 3
Not really. Draft games follow a predictable pattern wherein early picks get choice of champions but later picks get choice of counters. This reduces the variability in team composition and strength which you find in random or blind pick situations. For random it reduces such variability because it allows opposing teams to pick in concert with the synergies that the enemy team is building whereas a team in random that lands with synergies will be significantly stronger than a team that does not, or a team that does not have ways to counter said synergies. It is the same with blind pick except that as each team picks their own synergy and playstyle, since you cannot see the enemy teams playstyle as they pick, this increases the chances that your team will be unprepared for it.
"sometimes random produces close matches" does not mean that it, in general, does compared to draft pick. "Random matches have the same expected value for wins/losses as draft pick" does not mean that it has the same variability.
If we assume that the two teams do not have the same skill level in general things get worse for random, since better players are more likely to have more experience at a number of different roles, and are more able to transfer to those roles when its necessary. If both sides get a poor or unfamiliar team composition the team which is generally better at the game has an even larger advantage than normal compared to the two teams competing in areas which are more familiar.
Random even makes things worse for the newer/worse players since it makes them less likely to be able to play their best characters and they're likely to be relatively worse at their worst characters than a highly skilled player. This probably makes the game less fun for them, or at the very least, makes them a weaker link in the team, which better players will exploit by instinct in many situations.
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A better solution than random which also allows players to pick champions on their lower tier list might be a global ban list of some of the more popular champions or simply a soft request to the better players to not play their best champions
A global ban list is problematic because weaker players will tend to popular champions to learn before less popular champions. So while we might not want Talith to play Riven we don't care if I play Riven and so banning Riven may prevent me from playing my sub top 10 without really hindering my actual top 10.
A soft request is not the best if its not followed, and we don't have good guidelines as to when "you're good enough that you should not be playing your best champions".
I think a better option would be this: In each match, if the other team chooses, they can request two champions per person that that specific person cannot play. This means you can ban out Talith's riven without wasting a regular ban on Riven, and without failing to ban Studio from playing Janna even if you don't think playing against Janna is such a bad thing.