You can beat Darius with Riven, you just have to outplay him. If you can bait the Q and get it on CD you can go in on him for some good damage and get out. Also, his damage isn't nearly as fierce if you build a chain vest/negatron/heart of gold. You can't build glass cannon typical Riven build or you will probably have a rough laning phase for sure though.
Do you think I dont know this? Also chain vest isnt that helpful against darius as you seem to think.
Plus your first statement is entirely meaningless. I can beat anyone with anyone, as long as I outplay them.
You can beat Darius with Riven, you just have to outplay him. If you can bait the Q and get it on CD you can go in on him for some good damage and get out. Also, his damage isn't nearly as fierce if you build a chain vest/negatron/heart of gold. You can't build glass cannon typical Riven build or you will probably have a rough laning phase for sure though.
Do you think I dont know this? Also chain vest isnt that helpful against darius as you seem to think.
Plus your first statement is entirely meaningless. I can beat anyone with anyone, as long as I outplay them.
No need to get defensive about it. I'm just saying you made it sound like Darius is a guaranteed lane loss for Riven, which it isn't. Also, armor is kind of still good against Darius double damage auto attack from W and his Q. That's why I said build both that and the negatron so you can negate some of his physical and his bleed. You pretty much have to build defensive against Darius because like you implied, the fact he does 3 different damage types makes him such a bitch to lane against.
I dont like Josh's suggestion of spending 1100 gold on defensive items and just get pushed out of lane because I am ZERO threat to darius. Also I'm not talking about incompetent players here. Talith's suggestion is a lot cheaper and more manageable, and worth a try.
Doran's shields aren't a bad buy either, the difference is you can build chain vest and negatron into useful late game items, like GA which Riven will typically get anyway. It's laughable to say 950g of doran's shields which you'll have to sell are a great buy compared to 1440 gold for negatron/chain vest when you're guaranteed to make the chain vest into a GA anyway. To be honest, I'd probably go chain vest/heart of gold before I'd go double doran's shield, just because you get more health/armor that way, though the hp regen will be useful if you're bad at avoiding harass.
And how would buying defensive items and making Darius unable to push you out of lane get you pushed out of lane? All you have to do to beat Darius is not let him force you out of lane, and not feed him kills. He's so easy to gank it's unreal unless he's fed, which he won't be if you just go defensive. I actually like the Doran's shield suggestion though, just for the health, armor, and hp regen. Also, if you build the negatron into a QSS you can troll Darius so hard by just wiping the bleed stacks before he ults you.
Except now you are another 500 gold away from buying an AD item and Riven without AD does absolutely nothing. The doran's shields are there to assist in laning and trading against Darius and stay useful until you need to replace the slot. You have to think about what the items will do for you in the portion of the game you buy them in instead of only focusing on an absolute endgame build.
No doubt the doran's shields are not a bad buy, but neither are the items I suggested in the scenario that was described, which was "Darius was spanking me so hard I had to go farm jungle and let him free farm during laning phase." If you're getting that worked during laning, you need to do whatever you can to stay in lane and keep your opponent from just free farming and roaming to go gank your mid.
No, i dont. If i'm getting spanked to the point that laning there just feeds kills, changing it up so I dont die, and still get farm is entirely reasonable, and the entire reason i ended the game 9/5 out of an 0/3 laning phase when my jungle fed an additional 2 kills to darius.
Buying 1100 in armor and mr items isnt going to do jack shit when you cant get close to minions to get that farm without taking a dangerously bad trade. Sometimes getting darius to roam when you are also roaming is the answer. If you cant beat him 1 on 1, have issues 2 on 1, getting in situations where you can focus him hard with 3 people can end up being a workable strategy.
I'm not going to concede that leaving lane to take your jungler's farm and letting Darius free farm and roam is superior to just building some defense and staying in lane permanently. Even if you don't have great damage yourself because you delay your damage items, you should be able to kill a Darius on a jungle gank with Riven's stun/knockup, unless your jungler is somebody with no damage at all. Even then you should push him out of lane. You can play however you want. I just know if I'm losing a matchup, I'm going to build items that keep me alive and in lane.
When your opponent is 5/0 in lane, i dont care what you build with the meagre money you have, the lane is lost. If you want to make best friends with your tower and make sure your entirely useless when mid-game comes around go ahead. Instead I will be trying to stay in the game, and stay relevent and still be a major factor in helping my team win the the game. As well as ganking mid a few times to help my mid out, as well as stealing enemy jungle. Sure i'm chipping some of my junglers gold, but if he's got several kills and assists from ganking bot and mid, him giving me the gold so I can stay relevent in the game is the right move.
No doubt there's no one right answer for every scenario. In my mind, your opponent is not already fed 5 kills before you do anything differently. If I'm going into a Riven/Darius matchup, I'm building armor/5 to start, and I'm going to harass the piss out of him with Q at level 1, and just keep going somewhat defensive items and mad harass from there on. Neither of you have sustain, but you have your shield at least. No doubt it's a bad matchup, and honestly, IMO Darius is a failure of a champion and I hate him, but whatevs.
There are games when you play aggressive and end up being the one to die at level one. There are games where darius hits level 6 when you are level 4. There are games when your jungle runs in after your dead and dies to darius when he has 10 hp left. There are games when your jungler preengages before you get close enough and dies as you get there and you feed darius a double kill.
None of these instances your suggestion would have changed. Ive done the specific darius vs riven matchup quite a bit at this point. Its mostly bad for riven especially now that people know how to rune and equip darius. When darius was new I was winning that lane 60% of the time, now I can barely win 20% of them. And ive tried all sorts of different things, and the worst things i ever did was buy pure armor or pure mr against him, because once he hits six he just kills you.
Falling in love with Shyvana jungle again now that I bought the darkflame skin. I don't love it as much as Maokai I don't think, but depending on the rest of my team comp it can be really good, especially if the enemy team picks an Alistar/Fiddle jungle or anybody else who doesn't clear that fast, because while I won't gank as much as I normally would on Mao, I just outlevel the other jungler like crazy and keep them underfarmed, and when it comes to team fighting I'm bringing way more to the fights than them. Running exhaust/smite on her due to her lack of CC for ganks has worked fine since she's so fast anyway for escapes if I need to run.
Ganking is still a thing you should do. Hopefully you'll pick Shyvana when your lanes have some CC and even if they don't you should be taking exhaust. Shyvana does a lot a lot of damage at level 2 and people don't expect an early gank. It's pretty easy to start their wraiths, their red (with a nice leash from your mid) and run in with boots behind the closest outside or mid lane when they don't suspect it at all. Nobody ever thinks Shyvana can gank at level two or that it's effective. Exhaust beats flash and level 1 burnout does sooooo much damage if you can wail on them long enough to sustain it at all.
Start boots 3, run as fast as humanly possible to the brush between their red and the mid lane (that little side brush by wraiths). This will give you plenty of advance warning if they're going to start red and will let you bail out. Your entire team should be there just in case, or at least mid + the closest laner(s). It's a preposterously strong start that fucks over their jungler and hopefully a lane. By the time they know what's happened you can be back in your jungle and make it dangerous for the enemy to steal your own red in retaliation.
Extra credit: wards. Get the support to ward your red since it's the most obvious way for them to respond to your invade. Or, ward their red (either where you can see wraiths and them head to red, or in the red brush itself). Do something like wraiths -> blue (get a strong leash so you don't have to burn smite) -> wolves, then try to meet them at their red. Smite their red, kill them. With their red and exhaust you're super hard to shake and you can grab a kill pretty easy on their jungler. Your lanes should be ready to react if their laners leave to come get you.
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely still gank lanes on Shyv, it's just I'm only playing her in 4 and 5 man premades with my friends, and they ward early and pressure lanes hard. Our top and bot generally go quite aggressive early, so it's hard to gank, and I hate wasting time trying to set up a gank when I could be taking my jungle or theirs and just beating their jungle in gold/exp. I'll have to try starting their wraiths/red and ganking at level 2. I still think it'll be hard even with exhaust, because they're still going to be so close to their tower a flash can get them out of it, but a burned flash is still a win, so it might be worth doing.
Question: If i'm going to ward their red to try to steal it after I wraiths/blue/wolves, who should put that ward at their red? If I start boots/3 which I usually do, I won't have the gold for it. Ask my support to put one there? They're the only one starting with wards typically, so I'm guessing that's what you mean.
I love how much damage Shyvana does. Yesterday my top lane Yorick was facing a Vayne, and she had him pretty low and he needed to B, so I figured I'd go up and chase her out of lane or at least get her a bit more scared. She tried to toe to toe me, and I almost killed her before she ran under tower. I had already built some armor, so she was just tickling me, heh.
Also, since it sounds like you know Shyv a bit, what's your item build? I've been going boots/3 into wriggle's, heart of gold, tabi/merc depending on enemy team, phage, wit's end, turn phage into frozen mallet, then building either aegis/warmog's/force of nature depending on who I fear on the enemy team late game. If the game kept going and I went mallet/warmogs, I would sell the HoG for an Atma's or whatever.
Shyvana is probably my first or second best champion depending on who you ask and what day you catch me.
Yes, your support should be warding.
As far as ganking it's really, really not that hard with exhaust. You'll definitely fuck it up a time or two but even if you're coming from their red or yours, it's a very powerful gank that even if it doesn't result in a kill, you'll definitely put your lane ahead.
Your build is pretty similar for the most part. boots 3 - > hog -> usually phage, wits end can be built here depending on matchups and how far ahead you are -> which ever one you didn't build. After this you have tons of options, I usually opt to go tankier. Aegis is a super great all around tanky item, you can either opt for Warden's Mail vs autoattackers, you can build the mallet for health, or for magic resist Maw is a pretty good compromise item on her, or of course Force of Nature or something. I'd probably wrap it up with some sort of offensive item, Bloodthirster, Cleaver, or Youmuus are all pretty good items on her.
I pretty rarely build wriggles on things anymore. I think you get too used to the sustain and stuff, and some of the lower tier junglers DEFINITELY need it, but characters like Shyvana, Lee Sin, or Riven are really strong clearers and don't really need the lifesteal or anything so you can build other things (like Dorans on Lee Sin or Riven). And then most of the other junglers I play are support junglers, so they also don't even build Wriggles at all (Mao or Amumu). This isn't to say that I will NEVER build Wriggles on those characters, I just tend to not, maybe 85% of the time. The only jungler that I play extensively who I always get wriggles on is probably Nocturne. There are all kinds of other junglers that I like where it's really useful to cover some other deficiency (Olaf or Wukong spring to mind right away) but that's it.
I think the big issue is that Wriggles doesn't kick in fast enough if I start boots pots, which I almost ALWAYS do. By the time Riven or Shyvana can finish it, they don't need the sustain, they just blow camps up no problem.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Anyone else have issues with banning champions, namely them disappearing entirely from the champion list?
Had a game (thankfully dodged) where, when it was the other team's turn to ban, Nocturne was visible on my screen right there. As soon as it came time for me to ban, though, Nocturne would up and vanish. I'd even type in his name and he just wouldn't be there.
Anyone else have issues with banning champions, namely them disappearing entirely from the champion list?
Had a game (thankfully dodged) where, when it was the other team's turn to ban, Nocturne was visible on my screen right there. As soon as it came time for me to ban, though, Nocturne would up and vanish. I'd even type in his name and he just wouldn't be there.
I think if you're the only person that has the champ it isn't bannable. Which could explain why he would be there in the first place but not for the ban.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Anyone else have issues with banning champions, namely them disappearing entirely from the champion list?
Had a game (thankfully dodged) where, when it was the other team's turn to ban, Nocturne was visible on my screen right there. As soon as it came time for me to ban, though, Nocturne would up and vanish. I'd even type in his name and he just wouldn't be there.
I think if you're the only person that has the champ it isn't bannable. Which could explain why he would be there in the first place but not for the ban.
I don't own him though. Maybe no-one on either side owned him?
When the other team is banning, the characters you(and they) will see are the ones your team owns. When it's your turn to ban, you will only see characters they own. It would make no sense for you to be able to ban Nocturne if the other team didn't own him, which it sounds like they did not. Someone on your team owned him, which is why you saw him while they were banning.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited June 2012
Re: warding opposing Red, support shouldn't have too much of an issue warding it if you're Purple team. If you're Blue, though, that job would probably go better to either Mid or Top.
Edit: Unless you're like, invading at level 1 and are already in the vicinity in which case support can just drop the ward there, but then you'd likely be taking it outright at that point if you're all there.
Falling in love with Shyvana jungle again now that I bought the darkflame skin. I don't love it as much as Maokai I don't think, but depending on the rest of my team comp it can be really good, especially if the enemy team picks an Alistar/Fiddle jungle or anybody else who doesn't clear that fast, because while I won't gank as much as I normally would on Mao, I just outlevel the other jungler like crazy and keep them underfarmed, and when it comes to team fighting I'm bringing way more to the fights than them. Running exhaust/smite on her due to her lack of CC for ganks has worked fine since she's so fast anyway for escapes if I need to run.
Ganking is still a thing you should do. Hopefully you'll pick Shyvana when your lanes have some CC and even if they don't you should be taking exhaust. Shyvana does a lot a lot of damage at level 2 and people don't expect an early gank. It's pretty easy to start their wraiths, their red (with a nice leash from your mid) and run in with boots behind the closest outside or mid lane when they don't suspect it at all. Nobody ever thinks Shyvana can gank at level two or that it's effective. Exhaust beats flash and level 1 burnout does sooooo much damage if you can wail on them long enough to sustain it at all.
Start boots 3, run as fast as humanly possible to the brush between their red and the mid lane (that little side brush by wraiths). This will give you plenty of advance warning if they're going to start red and will let you bail out. Your entire team should be there just in case, or at least mid + the closest laner(s). It's a preposterously strong start that fucks over their jungler and hopefully a lane. By the time they know what's happened you can be back in your jungle and make it dangerous for the enemy to steal your own red in retaliation.
Extra credit: wards. Get the support to ward your red since it's the most obvious way for them to respond to your invade. Or, ward their red (either where you can see wraiths and them head to red, or in the red brush itself). Do something like wraiths -> blue (get a strong leash so you don't have to burn smite) -> wolves, then try to meet them at their red. Smite their red, kill them. With their red and exhaust you're super hard to shake and you can grab a kill pretty easy on their jungler. Your lanes should be ready to react if their laners leave to come get you.
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely still gank lanes on Shyv, it's just I'm only playing her in 4 and 5 man premades with my friends, and they ward early and pressure lanes hard. Our top and bot generally go quite aggressive early, so it's hard to gank, and I hate wasting time trying to set up a gank when I could be taking my jungle or theirs and just beating their jungle in gold/exp. I'll have to try starting their wraiths/red and ganking at level 2. I still think it'll be hard even with exhaust, because they're still going to be so close to their tower a flash can get them out of it, but a burned flash is still a win, so it might be worth doing.
Question: If i'm going to ward their red to try to steal it after I wraiths/blue/wolves, who should put that ward at their red? If I start boots/3 which I usually do, I won't have the gold for it. Ask my support to put one there? They're the only one starting with wards typically, so I'm guessing that's what you mean.
I love how much damage Shyvana does. Yesterday my top lane Yorick was facing a Vayne, and she had him pretty low and he needed to B, so I figured I'd go up and chase her out of lane or at least get her a bit more scared. She tried to toe to toe me, and I almost killed her before she ran under tower. I had already built some armor, so she was just tickling me, heh.
Also, since it sounds like you know Shyv a bit, what's your item build? I've been going boots/3 into wriggle's, heart of gold, tabi/merc depending on enemy team, phage, wit's end, turn phage into frozen mallet, then building either aegis/warmog's/force of nature depending on who I fear on the enemy team late game. If the game kept going and I went mallet/warmogs, I would sell the HoG for an Atma's or whatever.
Shyvana is probably my first or second best champion depending on who you ask and what day you catch me.
Yes, your support should be warding.
As far as ganking it's really, really not that hard with exhaust. You'll definitely fuck it up a time or two but even if you're coming from their red or yours, it's a very powerful gank that even if it doesn't result in a kill, you'll definitely put your lane ahead.
Your build is pretty similar for the most part. boots 3 - > hog -> usually phage, wits end can be built here depending on matchups and how far ahead you are -> which ever one you didn't build. After this you have tons of options, I usually opt to go tankier. Aegis is a super great all around tanky item, you can either opt for Warden's Mail vs autoattackers, you can build the mallet for health, or for magic resist Maw is a pretty good compromise item on her, or of course Force of Nature or something. I'd probably wrap it up with some sort of offensive item, Bloodthirster, Cleaver, or Youmuus are all pretty good items on her.
I pretty rarely build wriggles on things anymore. I think you get too used to the sustain and stuff, and some of the lower tier junglers DEFINITELY need it, but characters like Shyvana, Lee Sin, or Riven are really strong clearers and don't really need the lifesteal or anything so you can build other things (like Dorans on Lee Sin or Riven). And then most of the other junglers I play are support junglers, so they also don't even build Wriggles at all (Mao or Amumu). This isn't to say that I will NEVER build Wriggles on those characters, I just tend to not, maybe 85% of the time. The only jungler that I play extensively who I always get wriggles on is probably Nocturne. There are all kinds of other junglers that I like where it's really useful to cover some other deficiency (Olaf or Wukong spring to mind right away) but that's it.
I think the big issue is that Wriggles doesn't kick in fast enough if I start boots pots, which I almost ALWAYS do. By the time Riven or Shyvana can finish it, they don't need the sustain, they just blow camps up no problem.
Thanks again. I'll have to think about skipping Wriggle's on her. I guess I was taking it for the sustain not really thinking about how fast she clears by the time you get it anyway. The armor is nice on it too, but then again, not spending 1600g on it means getting to phage/wit's end faster, which are more impactful items. Do you ever finish her build with a triforce as an offensive item? You didn't mention it, and I've never built it on her, but I've seen it suggested.
Also, since you mentioned Wukong jungle, can you tell me what items you build on him to jungle? And offensive or defensive masteries? I freaking love Wukong top lane and even mid as a counter when I have a kennen top sometimes, but I've never tried him in the jungle yet.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited June 2012
I ran into a Jungle Wukong last night in ranked. I was pretty unimpressed. He gets less farm than he would've at top and his ganks are pretty meh without Red/Phage/Ult. Stealth from bush into dash is pretty ninja though.
Biggest problem is the less farm. I lost in lane by like 35 cs and I could sit in his ult as Kog'Maw and 1v1 him at 25 minutes.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
apparently the people at support like having fun, i had a enjoyable experience asking for 20 extra rp because i roughnecked my math and bought yorick and ended up with 955, so politely asking for 20 more, i informed them that i was wondering if they'd simply give me it so i could buy redeemed riven, apparently i was lucky enough to stumble upon a support servicer that ended their signatures with What is broken can be reforged, I.E, a riven fan.
She said she'd be happy to do it, if i gave her a piece of league of legends fanart drawn by me, after informing her that my skill with art is the equivalent of rammus rolling along with pencils taped to his spikes, she said a poem or haiku would do. my feeble 14 year old mind could not conjure a precious haiku worthy of such a nice support worker, so i ended up just writing a 4 line non rhyming shtick about riven. she said it was lovely and when i logged in i had 985 instead of 975
riot support sure are cool people @eeSanGhello new jax build
Lack of farm is why you see the tankier junglers more often than not. Udyr/Naut/Alistar/Maokai dont need items to do their job and can afford Oracles without gimping themselves so much.
I ran into a Jungle Wukong last night in ranked. I was pretty unimpressed. He gets less farm than he would've at top and his ganks are pretty meh without Red/Phage/Ult. Stealth from bush into dash is pretty ninja though.
Biggest problem is the less farm. I lost in lane by like 35 cs and I could sit in his ult as Kog'Maw and 1v1 him at 25 minutes.
I feel like any of the tops that go to jungle like Wukong/Jax/Riven are like this though. You're basically taking a risk playing them that you don't have if you play Maokai, Nautilus, etc., because those characters just build a couple GP5s into tanky items later and gank and tank fine later. With the characters like Wukong, you have to get successful ganks to run up those kills and assists, then you snowball into the kind of Wukong you'd be from lane. I don't typically play these kind, because I don't like relying on successful ganks, as they just don't always happen in a game, but I do love Wukong. His ganks can be like Shaco level troll with the stealth into dash like you mentioned though, and if the lane has damage, his burst plus knockup from ult should get kills.
I dont really find that true with riven though because her cleartime is just insane. If you focus only on clearing you can outpace top and mid in level.
So in the other news I unlocked Fizz, who is. THE CUTEST. Can anyone tell me about masteries, also items? I've been building him as a standard AP mid + Sheen, and for masteries I have 21/5/0.
I take him with mid with full defensive masteries, AP Quints, AP blues, Pen reds, and CDR yellows. Item-wise, it depends how I feel at the beginning of the match: if I'm feeling totally confident that I can stay in the lane long enough to get 925 gold, I'll buy blue crystal + 2 pots, go for an early Catalyst for sustain and build it into a RoA relatively early for a nice core AP item. If I am absolutely crushing face in the laning phase, I immediately go for a Guardian Angel after I've finished RoA + boots 2, because the enemy team will explode you hard if you're on a killing spree (Fizz has something akin to Teemo's global taunt). If I'm just sitting and farming, I just build a sheen and start stacking AP items for lategame fights. After winning a couple of engagements, I then use the prize money to pick-up a GA.
If I'm not feeling good about my chances at the start of the game, I pick-up a Doran's shield rather than going for Catalyst. Catalyst is the stronger play, but you will be fucked and set way behind if you can't farm up turn blue crystal into Cat after swallowing your first blue pill.
Thanks everyone for the Fizz tips.
Any thoughts on how to pick skills to level, especially early on?
I dont really find that true with riven though because her cleartime is just insane. If you focus only on clearing you can outpace top and mid in level.
No doubt she clears fast, but without successful ganks she still won't have anywhere near as much gold as she would if she were in lane. Only so many jungle creeps to kill. It's not that she won't still be a presence, just that an unfed Riven is far less of a teamfight presence than an unfed Maokai or Nautilus, IMO.
You can build a HoG on pretty much any jungler without really suffering anything. There's also guys like J4 who can start Regrowth>philo and still never get low in jungle.
I by no means think Hat is wrong, but to offer a slightly different Shyvana assessment:
I'm a big fan of Wriggles because its always useful. It has a good mixture of everything and while Shyv doesn't really need the proc to jungle fast, its nice to have extra speed (especially if you're stealing an enemy blue or red and need to get the job done fast).
What's best about it is the flexibility it gives you in warding. The moment you buy Wriggles you've basically got a ~4 gold per 10 item in free wards. In some ways the wards you get as a jungler and with Wriggles are better, as they're less predictable and harder to track. If your opponent sees your top return to lane with a ward, run into the bush, and come out with no ward, "duh bush is warded." Who tracks when the jungler buys a wriggles and which river they might have been close to? Ward enemy buffs to aggressively counterjungle, ward lanes to help your teammates, ward jungle entrances to give better map awareness, ward the opposite jungle lane to make stealing golems / wraiths extremely easy, ward everything because nobody can see you do it so nobody knows to expect it.
I think Hat is right that it isn't a necessary item and it does slow down all sorts of great items, but any time I play without it I always miss the extra bit of armor, damage, and lifesteal it gives plus the flexible ward.
As for the rest, I'm a huge fan of early Phage / Mallet on Shyv, it turns her into a ganking machine and the extra health is always useful. With R as an initiate, Shyv can be on top of pretty much anyone in a lane or teamfight, and once you have a mallet they aren't getting away. I consider it core, but YMMV.
Triforce Shyv is fun but there are better items for the cost and slot. The mana is obviously wasted, Frozen Mallet is better for stickiness and it doesn't make you particularly tanky. Fun to build if you're 15/0 when laning is finished but otherwise not worthwhile.
So in the other news I unlocked Fizz, who is. THE CUTEST. Can anyone tell me about masteries, also items? I've been building him as a standard AP mid + Sheen, and for masteries I have 21/5/0.
I take him with mid with full defensive masteries, AP Quints, AP blues, Pen reds, and CDR yellows. Item-wise, it depends how I feel at the beginning of the match: if I'm feeling totally confident that I can stay in the lane long enough to get 925 gold, I'll buy blue crystal + 2 pots, go for an early Catalyst for sustain and build it into a RoA relatively early for a nice core AP item. If I am absolutely crushing face in the laning phase, I immediately go for a Guardian Angel after I've finished RoA + boots 2, because the enemy team will explode you hard if you're on a killing spree (Fizz has something akin to Teemo's global taunt). If I'm just sitting and farming, I just build a sheen and start stacking AP items for lategame fights. After winning a couple of engagements, I then use the prize money to pick-up a GA.
If I'm not feeling good about my chances at the start of the game, I pick-up a Doran's shield rather than going for Catalyst. Catalyst is the stronger play, but you will be fucked and set way behind if you can't farm up turn blue crystal into Cat after swallowing your first blue pill.
Thanks everyone for the Fizz tips.
Any thoughts on how to pick skills to level, especially early on?
Level up W primarily, E is a great escape, but its very mana hungry, and Q is only good for initiating, which its cooldown is enough for. W has good damage as a passive, and the active is very nice. Generally I'll go R>W>E>Q, but will usually have WEQ by level 3.
i hate, hate, hate, HATE it when Dominion teams are strong in the start and then just fall apart. fun part is that i outscored everyone even though my team lost the game
I'm pretty convinced at this point that only gigantic assholes play Darius
AKA The Shaco Effect.
And y'know, I do like Darius' kit/playstyle, I would totally be okay if they changed the ult somehow. Maybe if you get a kill with it, it'll come up again in half the normal cool-down instead of immediately so he's not just rampaging through and getting pentas erryday.
Still prefer Rumble Top, though.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
I'm pretty convinced at this point that only gigantic assholes play Darius
AKA The Shaco Effect.
And y'know, I do like Darius' kit/playstyle, I would totally be okay if they changed the ult somehow. Maybe if you get a kill with it, it'll come up again in half the normal cool-down instead of immediately so he's not just rampaging through and getting pentas erryday.
Still prefer Rumble Top, though.
"THE REST OF YOU SUCK ONLY 3 KILLS"
Yes, that's because you stole all. Of. Them.
"I'M SO FED OLOLOLOL"
[Runs into 1v3, dies]
"WTF WHY DIDN'T YOU HELP"
Because we were on the other side of the fucking map getting dragon, dipshit. Thanks for helping.
I'm pretty convinced at this point that only gigantic assholes play Darius
AKA The Shaco Effect.
And y'know, I do like Darius' kit/playstyle, I would totally be okay if they changed the ult somehow. Maybe if you get a kill with it, it'll come up again in half the normal cool-down instead of immediately so he's not just rampaging through and getting pentas erryday.
Still prefer Rumble Top, though.
I really don't care if they change the ult cooldown- I play him because I like the grab, the spin, and the animation of the ultimate.
It is so satisfying to get a kill with that thing! HiiiiiiiiiYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH
Like maybe they could change it to be another one of those "Does more damage the lower the opponent's HP is" kind of thing, to keep the whole "Executioner" thing going and then just lower the base cooldown without the refresh
What do people think of splitting the PAinhouse into two separate events? One could be the current, gimmick version which shall henceforth be known as the "funhouse", and one could be a serious business competitive version that would retain the name PAinhouse.
It could be on a different day than the funhouse and teams would be set rather than drafted at the time of the event. If there is enough interest in this idea I can try and make it happen.
I'm fine with doing a tryhard tourney, but we need people to fully commit for a series length (be it as a team or individual), as otherwise people will get stomped, get all snitty and never play in it again. I'd love to run one (as I really enjoy the competitive aspects of the game, even when I suck), but getting stomped every week is not fun for a lot of players, and I don't really blame them.
I'm on vaca right now, but something if we get people to commit, doing something like a balancing point value system where players get points for winning and lose for losing, then balance the teams to all be within a point of each other, we could probably have some fun. That said, if people don't show up, we can't balance it except over the very long term.
As for moving the start time - I'd be ok with moving it back an hour or two maybe, but by doing so we cut a lot of west coasters out of the game, as it's hard to get out of work and get home by 5 as it is. If they'd like a euro painhouse, I can start running it earlier (my workday ends around 6 EST), but integrating so many disparate timezones will just end up alienating someone. If I had a better idea of numbers on both sides, it may be easier to do. Once I'm back, I'll setup another survey and readjust times as needed.
Re: EU Painhouse: We could just hold it on a different day, such as the weekend. There's multiple ways of resolving this timing conflict.
Re: Tryhard Tourney: We would need judges to dole out points to the leads in a game.
Honestly, thinking about it, I would suggest a system of giving 5 points to the MVP of a game. And then, 4 points to the next, etc, and 1 point to the least influential person. It's gonna suck to be titled as least influential, but there's no way a game can be won with just 4. Even if just for the base AD of the support, it takes 5 to win.
What I struggle with is how to take away points. Would you take 5 from the highest rated person who lost? If we take 5 from the weakest link, it'll definitely single out people, and I guarantee people will want to quit. Essentially, we'd be making our own PA ranked system. The trick is, we would need some Riot support. Nobody wants to be the bottom of the barrel. But having something to bring people back would help some, too.
Posts
Do you think I dont know this? Also chain vest isnt that helpful against darius as you seem to think.
Plus your first statement is entirely meaningless. I can beat anyone with anyone, as long as I outplay them.
No need to get defensive about it. I'm just saying you made it sound like Darius is a guaranteed lane loss for Riven, which it isn't. Also, armor is kind of still good against Darius double damage auto attack from W and his Q. That's why I said build both that and the negatron so you can negate some of his physical and his bleed. You pretty much have to build defensive against Darius because like you implied, the fact he does 3 different damage types makes him such a bitch to lane against.
You all forgot about d shields I bet.
And how would buying defensive items and making Darius unable to push you out of lane get you pushed out of lane? All you have to do to beat Darius is not let him force you out of lane, and not feed him kills. He's so easy to gank it's unreal unless he's fed, which he won't be if you just go defensive. I actually like the Doran's shield suggestion though, just for the health, armor, and hp regen. Also, if you build the negatron into a QSS you can troll Darius so hard by just wiping the bleed stacks before he ults you.
Buying 1100 in armor and mr items isnt going to do jack shit when you cant get close to minions to get that farm without taking a dangerously bad trade. Sometimes getting darius to roam when you are also roaming is the answer. If you cant beat him 1 on 1, have issues 2 on 1, getting in situations where you can focus him hard with 3 people can end up being a workable strategy.
When your opponent is 5/0 in lane, i dont care what you build with the meagre money you have, the lane is lost. If you want to make best friends with your tower and make sure your entirely useless when mid-game comes around go ahead. Instead I will be trying to stay in the game, and stay relevent and still be a major factor in helping my team win the the game. As well as ganking mid a few times to help my mid out, as well as stealing enemy jungle. Sure i'm chipping some of my junglers gold, but if he's got several kills and assists from ganking bot and mid, him giving me the gold so I can stay relevent in the game is the right move.
None of these instances your suggestion would have changed. Ive done the specific darius vs riven matchup quite a bit at this point. Its mostly bad for riven especially now that people know how to rune and equip darius. When darius was new I was winning that lane 60% of the time, now I can barely win 20% of them. And ive tried all sorts of different things, and the worst things i ever did was buy pure armor or pure mr against him, because once he hits six he just kills you.
Only when I'm not playing Yorick.
Shyvana is probably my first or second best champion depending on who you ask and what day you catch me.
Yes, your support should be warding.
As far as ganking it's really, really not that hard with exhaust. You'll definitely fuck it up a time or two but even if you're coming from their red or yours, it's a very powerful gank that even if it doesn't result in a kill, you'll definitely put your lane ahead.
Your build is pretty similar for the most part. boots 3 - > hog -> usually phage, wits end can be built here depending on matchups and how far ahead you are -> which ever one you didn't build. After this you have tons of options, I usually opt to go tankier. Aegis is a super great all around tanky item, you can either opt for Warden's Mail vs autoattackers, you can build the mallet for health, or for magic resist Maw is a pretty good compromise item on her, or of course Force of Nature or something. I'd probably wrap it up with some sort of offensive item, Bloodthirster, Cleaver, or Youmuus are all pretty good items on her.
I pretty rarely build wriggles on things anymore. I think you get too used to the sustain and stuff, and some of the lower tier junglers DEFINITELY need it, but characters like Shyvana, Lee Sin, or Riven are really strong clearers and don't really need the lifesteal or anything so you can build other things (like Dorans on Lee Sin or Riven). And then most of the other junglers I play are support junglers, so they also don't even build Wriggles at all (Mao or Amumu). This isn't to say that I will NEVER build Wriggles on those characters, I just tend to not, maybe 85% of the time. The only jungler that I play extensively who I always get wriggles on is probably Nocturne. There are all kinds of other junglers that I like where it's really useful to cover some other deficiency (Olaf or Wukong spring to mind right away) but that's it.
I think the big issue is that Wriggles doesn't kick in fast enough if I start boots pots, which I almost ALWAYS do. By the time Riven or Shyvana can finish it, they don't need the sustain, they just blow camps up no problem.
Had a game (thankfully dodged) where, when it was the other team's turn to ban, Nocturne was visible on my screen right there. As soon as it came time for me to ban, though, Nocturne would up and vanish. I'd even type in his name and he just wouldn't be there.
Currently DMing: None
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I think if you're the only person that has the champ it isn't bannable. Which could explain why he would be there in the first place but not for the ban.
I don't own him though. Maybe no-one on either side owned him?
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I've had a game where I searched for Darius to ban and nothing came up, then the other team goes and bans him.
Kinda sucks when you want to use bans so your team doesn't play the champion though.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Edit: Unless you're like, invading at level 1 and are already in the vicinity in which case support can just drop the ward there, but then you'd likely be taking it outright at that point if you're all there.
Currently DMing: None
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Thanks again. I'll have to think about skipping Wriggle's on her. I guess I was taking it for the sustain not really thinking about how fast she clears by the time you get it anyway. The armor is nice on it too, but then again, not spending 1600g on it means getting to phage/wit's end faster, which are more impactful items. Do you ever finish her build with a triforce as an offensive item? You didn't mention it, and I've never built it on her, but I've seen it suggested.
Also, since you mentioned Wukong jungle, can you tell me what items you build on him to jungle? And offensive or defensive masteries? I freaking love Wukong top lane and even mid as a counter when I have a kennen top sometimes, but I've never tried him in the jungle yet.
Biggest problem is the less farm. I lost in lane by like 35 cs and I could sit in his ult as Kog'Maw and 1v1 him at 25 minutes.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Jax build? WHERE?
PSN: BrightWing13 FFX|V:ARR Bright Asuna
I feel like any of the tops that go to jungle like Wukong/Jax/Riven are like this though. You're basically taking a risk playing them that you don't have if you play Maokai, Nautilus, etc., because those characters just build a couple GP5s into tanky items later and gank and tank fine later. With the characters like Wukong, you have to get successful ganks to run up those kills and assists, then you snowball into the kind of Wukong you'd be from lane. I don't typically play these kind, because I don't like relying on successful ganks, as they just don't always happen in a game, but I do love Wukong. His ganks can be like Shaco level troll with the stealth into dash like you mentioned though, and if the lane has damage, his burst plus knockup from ult should get kills.
Thanks everyone for the Fizz tips.
Any thoughts on how to pick skills to level, especially early on?
No doubt she clears fast, but without successful ganks she still won't have anywhere near as much gold as she would if she were in lane. Only so many jungle creeps to kill. It's not that she won't still be a presence, just that an unfed Riven is far less of a teamfight presence than an unfed Maokai or Nautilus, IMO.
I'm a big fan of Wriggles because its always useful. It has a good mixture of everything and while Shyv doesn't really need the proc to jungle fast, its nice to have extra speed (especially if you're stealing an enemy blue or red and need to get the job done fast).
What's best about it is the flexibility it gives you in warding. The moment you buy Wriggles you've basically got a ~4 gold per 10 item in free wards. In some ways the wards you get as a jungler and with Wriggles are better, as they're less predictable and harder to track. If your opponent sees your top return to lane with a ward, run into the bush, and come out with no ward, "duh bush is warded." Who tracks when the jungler buys a wriggles and which river they might have been close to? Ward enemy buffs to aggressively counterjungle, ward lanes to help your teammates, ward jungle entrances to give better map awareness, ward the opposite jungle lane to make stealing golems / wraiths extremely easy, ward everything because nobody can see you do it so nobody knows to expect it.
I think Hat is right that it isn't a necessary item and it does slow down all sorts of great items, but any time I play without it I always miss the extra bit of armor, damage, and lifesteal it gives plus the flexible ward.
As for the rest, I'm a huge fan of early Phage / Mallet on Shyv, it turns her into a ganking machine and the extra health is always useful. With R as an initiate, Shyv can be on top of pretty much anyone in a lane or teamfight, and once you have a mallet they aren't getting away. I consider it core, but YMMV.
Triforce Shyv is fun but there are better items for the cost and slot. The mana is obviously wasted, Frozen Mallet is better for stickiness and it doesn't make you particularly tanky. Fun to build if you're 15/0 when laning is finished but otherwise not worthwhile.
Level up W primarily, E is a great escape, but its very mana hungry, and Q is only good for initiating, which its cooldown is enough for. W has good damage as a passive, and the active is very nice. Generally I'll go R>W>E>Q, but will usually have WEQ by level 3.
MWO: Adamski
AKA The Shaco Effect.
And y'know, I do like Darius' kit/playstyle, I would totally be okay if they changed the ult somehow. Maybe if you get a kill with it, it'll come up again in half the normal cool-down instead of immediately so he's not just rampaging through and getting pentas erryday.
Still prefer Rumble Top, though.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
"THE REST OF YOU SUCK ONLY 3 KILLS"
Yes, that's because you stole all. Of. Them.
"I'M SO FED OLOLOLOL"
[Runs into 1v3, dies]
"WTF WHY DIDN'T YOU HELP"
Because we were on the other side of the fucking map getting dragon, dipshit. Thanks for helping.
I really don't care if they change the ult cooldown- I play him because I like the grab, the spin, and the animation of the ultimate.
It is so satisfying to get a kill with that thing! HiiiiiiiiiYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH
Like maybe they could change it to be another one of those "Does more damage the lower the opponent's HP is" kind of thing, to keep the whole "Executioner" thing going and then just lower the base cooldown without the refresh
Re: EU Painhouse: We could just hold it on a different day, such as the weekend. There's multiple ways of resolving this timing conflict.
Re: Tryhard Tourney: We would need judges to dole out points to the leads in a game.
Honestly, thinking about it, I would suggest a system of giving 5 points to the MVP of a game. And then, 4 points to the next, etc, and 1 point to the least influential person. It's gonna suck to be titled as least influential, but there's no way a game can be won with just 4. Even if just for the base AD of the support, it takes 5 to win.
What I struggle with is how to take away points. Would you take 5 from the highest rated person who lost? If we take 5 from the weakest link, it'll definitely single out people, and I guarantee people will want to quit. Essentially, we'd be making our own PA ranked system. The trick is, we would need some Riot support. Nobody wants to be the bottom of the barrel. But having something to bring people back would help some, too.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Hulk doesn't need Captain America.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Not to be confused with a porno by the same name...
Edit: Just saying. The more you know!
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.