Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Its not like slave leia is an inherently objectified character to cosplayer or anything. I'm sure women only dress up as slave leia for unsexual reasons.
Like if it was just pictures of women not cosplaying being talked about I could see hedgie's point.
This? This is overreaction.
They shouldn't wear those short skirts - I mean gold bikinis, right?
The follow-up you are alluding to is "if they didn't want to get raped." Not "if they didn't want people at a comic convention to notice that they were cosplaying as a fantasy vixen in a place where most people are wearing a full set of clothes." Is it unreasonable for a guy to get unwanted attention if he shows up to a baseball game in his underwear?
The point is that victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter what the underlying topic might be. Objectifying people is wrong, especially when doing so helps foster a hostile environment. And I'm tired of the subtext that threads through this, that men can't be expected to keep their libido in check. I find that personally offensive.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Aside from bottom of the barrel places like 4chan and the fighting game community, is there a video game or general nerd venue where people are anything but ecstatic to gain a female member?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Yeah that's a way deeper and thought out analysis of females in gaming or even female cosplaying or costuming in general. I mean fuck are there more than a handful of costumes for females for Halloween that DOESN'T start with the word 'sexy'?
Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Yeah that's a way deeper and thought out analysis of females in gaming or even female cosplaying or costuming in general. I mean fuck are there more than a handful of costumes for females for Halloween that DOESN'T start with the word 'sexy'?
I actually think that this is because for most males, it is an alien feeling to be proud of your body. More females may be ashamed of their bodies (or not, I dunno) but I think more males think less when they look in the mirror "yeah. That looks good. Everyone wants some of this" and more "huh. Should I pop that zit now or wait until it gets huge enough that it comes out like a cannon"
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Its not like slave leia is an inherently objectified character to cosplayer or anything. I'm sure women only dress up as slave leia for unsexual reasons.
Like if it was just pictures of women not cosplaying being talked about I could see hedgie's point.
This? This is overreaction.
They shouldn't wear those short skirts - I mean gold bikinis, right?
The follow-up you are alluding to is "if they didn't want to get raped." Not "if they didn't want people at a comic convention to notice that they were cosplaying as a fantasy vixen in a place where most people are wearing a full set of clothes." Is it unreasonable for a guy to get unwanted attention if he shows up to a baseball game in his underwear?
The point is that victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter what the underlying topic might be. Objectifying people is wrong, especially when doing so helps foster a hostile environment. And I'm tired of the subtext that threads through this, that men can't be expected to keep their libido in check. I find that personally offensive.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
Because, as Ms. Stoker pointed out, when people - especially celebrities like Mr. Pegg - openly objectify women at events like Comic-Con, it makes her and other women feel like they're not really part of the community, but just tolerated as eye candy. Which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and eventually pushes them out.
Its not like slave leia is an inherently objectified character to cosplayer or anything. I'm sure women only dress up as slave leia for unsexual reasons.
Like if it was just pictures of women not cosplaying being talked about I could see hedgie's point.
This? This is overreaction.
They shouldn't wear those short skirts - I mean gold bikinis, right?
The follow-up you are alluding to is "if they didn't want to get raped." Not "if they didn't want people at a comic convention to notice that they were cosplaying as a fantasy vixen in a place where most people are wearing a full set of clothes." Is it unreasonable for a guy to get unwanted attention if he shows up to a baseball game in his underwear?
The point is that victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter what the underlying topic might be. Objectifying people is wrong, especially when doing so helps foster a hostile environment. And I'm tired of the subtext that threads through this, that men can't be expected to keep their libido in check. I find that personally offensive.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
Because, as Ms. Stoker pointed out, when people - especially celebrities like Mr. Pegg - openly objectify women at events like Comic-Con, it makes her and other women feel like they're not really part of the community, but just tolerated as eye candy. Which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and eventually pushes them out.
is there a rash of people complaining about girls that aren't cosplaying?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Even this, more reasoned out that it is, doesn't really follow into what she did to Pegg.
That said, I'm actually not sure I agree what is so desirable about "attention" here. We're not talking about a female author who gets snubbed for not playing up to her attractiveness. We're talking about getting random attention from random passers-by. If a geek artist has to be sexy for someone, anyone at all, to read her webcomic, then we might have some issues. If a geek fangirl wants to stand out in a crowd of tens of thousands of convention-goers, then being in a sexy costume is one way of doing it. I don't believe that is indicative of the convention turning your typical women away at the gates otherwise.
I recently went to a medium-ish anime convention on the invite of one of my friends. I'm not particularly into anime or an otaku, so I'm not fully familiar with everything, but there were more women at the convention than men, more female cosplayers, and there were a few whom were women cosplaying as male characters. I didn't get the feeling that they weren't welcomed or weren't getting the attention they "deserved" (whatever that is).
Its not like slave leia is an inherently objectified character to cosplayer or anything. I'm sure women only dress up as slave leia for unsexual reasons.
Like if it was just pictures of women not cosplaying being talked about I could see hedgie's point.
This? This is overreaction.
They shouldn't wear those short skirts - I mean gold bikinis, right?
The follow-up you are alluding to is "if they didn't want to get raped." Not "if they didn't want people at a comic convention to notice that they were cosplaying as a fantasy vixen in a place where most people are wearing a full set of clothes." Is it unreasonable for a guy to get unwanted attention if he shows up to a baseball game in his underwear?
The point is that victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter what the underlying topic might be. Objectifying people is wrong, especially when doing so helps foster a hostile environment. And I'm tired of the subtext that threads through this, that men can't be expected to keep their libido in check. I find that personally offensive.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
Because, as Ms. Stoker pointed out, when people - especially celebrities like Mr. Pegg - openly objectify women at events like Comic-Con, it makes her and other women feel like they're not really part of the community, but just tolerated as eye candy. Which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and eventually pushes them out.
But did someone involved feel this way? Was ms stoker actually going to come but simon peg did this and she changed her mind?
What if a woman comes specifically for Simon peg to drool over her? Does she get stopped at the door?
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
It ain't. It's just Hedgie and crazy people with blogs. This stuff is the chick equivalent of those "Men's Rights' neckbeards on Reddit.
Is posting a photo of a bunch of cosplayers and saying this
I've got a thing about cosplay girls. They're like zombie stormtroopers, a combination of beloved things
equate to victim blaming or what have you?
Hell no.
Is it insensitive? A bit creepy? Certainly! But they volunteered to be in the picture, and they got to meet a celebrity. Simon Pegg comes off as a bit of an asshole, but no one's perfect.
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
It ain't. It's just Hedgie and crazy people with blogs. This stuff is the chick equivalent of those "Men's Rights' neckbeards on Reddit.
Is posting a photo of a bunch of cosplayers and saying this
I've got a thing about cosplay girls. They're like zombie stormtroopers, a combination of beloved things
equate to victim blaming or what have you?
Hell no.
Is it insensitive? A bit creepy? Certainly! But they volunteered to be in the picture, and they got to meet a celebrity. Simon Pegg comes off as a bit of an asshole, but no one's perfect.
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
Have you at all gained insight into female perspective and the hardships females face in holding their heads high as women from the past like, 5 threads?
If so, consider that a gift from the sane feminists.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
It ain't. It's just Hedgie and crazy people with blogs. This stuff is the chick equivalent of those "Men's Rights' neckbeards on Reddit.
Is posting a photo of a bunch of cosplayers and saying this
I've got a thing about cosplay girls. They're like zombie stormtroopers, a combination of beloved things
equate to victim blaming or what have you?
Hell no.
Is it insensitive? A bit creepy? Certainly! But they volunteered to be in the picture, and they got to meet a celebrity. Simon Pegg comes off as a bit of an asshole, but no one's perfect.
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
It means you need to keep looking. Feminism is a very large community, you might never be able to interact with or read all their blogs online. That said, you need to try to understand them as equals not people who have to "win your approval" like they're auditioning for American Idol. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure before you began by giving them impossible standards to perform to since you already seem to consider them hostile third parties before you've read a word they've said. Also read some books, internet articles on feminism & talk to people outside your social or business circle (despite what you think you're in a conservative atmosphere) which are feminists. And I don't mean go to swanky places only the upper classes congregate.
edit: There are all different kinds of feminists and factions within it, no-one speaks for all feminism
At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
It ain't. It's just Hedgie and crazy people with blogs. This stuff is the chick equivalent of those "Men's Rights' neckbeards on Reddit.
Is posting a photo of a bunch of cosplayers and saying this
I've got a thing about cosplay girls. They're like zombie stormtroopers, a combination of beloved things
equate to victim blaming or what have you?
Hell no.
Is it insensitive? A bit creepy? Certainly! But they volunteered to be in the picture, and they got to meet a celebrity. Simon Pegg comes off as a bit of an asshole, but no one's perfect.
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
I don't mean this to come across as an insult or overly critical, but sometimes I get the impression that you're ever willing to challenge other people to present you with the existence of things, but seem less willing to challenge yourself to find the things you don't feel exist(in whatever numbers). Or, you seem firm in your belief that things are the way you think they are and are less willing to challenge the notions you hold to be evident.
Its not like slave leia is an inherently objectified character to cosplayer or anything. I'm sure women only dress up as slave leia for unsexual reasons.
Like if it was just pictures of women not cosplaying being talked about I could see hedgie's point.
This? This is overreaction.
They shouldn't wear those short skirts - I mean gold bikinis, right?
The follow-up you are alluding to is "if they didn't want to get raped." Not "if they didn't want people at a comic convention to notice that they were cosplaying as a fantasy vixen in a place where most people are wearing a full set of clothes." Is it unreasonable for a guy to get unwanted attention if he shows up to a baseball game in his underwear?
The point is that victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter what the underlying topic might be. Objectifying people is wrong, especially when doing so helps foster a hostile environment. And I'm tired of the subtext that threads through this, that men can't be expected to keep their libido in check. I find that personally offensive.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
Because, as Ms. Stoker pointed out, when people - especially celebrities like Mr. Pegg - openly objectify women at events like Comic-Con, it makes her and other women feel like they're not really part of the community, but just tolerated as eye candy. Which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and eventually pushes them out.
But did someone involved feel this way? Was ms stoker actually going to come but simon peg did this and she changed her mind?
What if a woman comes specifically for Simon peg to drool over her? Does she get stopped at the door?
So, why is it necessary that one of the specific women involved has to be bothered? The point is that Pegg's actions help to continue to foster a hostile environment that is offputting to the female members of the community. And you know what? It's not like she's asking for a lot - she would just like for female cosplayers to not be treated like they're food. I don't think that's all that hard.
It took me a bit to find it, but this should help illustrate the point.
Edit: I actually would have linked to where he literally makes the drooling noise while ogling the Gummi Venus de Milo but it only exists in Spanish on youtube.
I think at the end of the day, when you're trying to further a case, push an agenda, defend yourself, or speak out on something, you need to know when and where to pick your battles.
It's my opinion that this particular blogger did not pick this specific battle very wisely. Nor did this celebrity pick the battle of who to reply to on twitter very wisely.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
This thread has shown me that all the stereotypes about insane feminists are true. Wow guys. Wow. And I was neutral before I read this thread.
This is how I feel every time I try to learn more about feminism. It's very frustrating. At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
Feminism isn't a monolithic block man, it's not a political party with party leaders, there's huge spectrums within feminism even if to a casual observer it looks like everyone who self identifies as feminist resembles the ones who make blog posts about web comics because those are the most vocal people on the internet. It would be like identifying all Republicans by the ones who run conservative blogs, who are by and large typically loony toons religious whackos.
The most vocal feminists are the ones who, you know, would call someone getting their feelings hurt part of the "War on women" where as the majority focus on things like planned parenthood not getting stomped, stopping domestic violence, fighting the glass ceiling, shit like that. I've met tons of amazing feminists when I worked for the YWAC in the sexual assault counseling offices.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I'm watching the west wing on one monitor and watching a west wing clip on the other, this is bizarre
And that's a pretty good clip, although the assistant actually has every right to speak up if sam's conversation with ainslee offends her. In this case though Sam didn't really say anything bad, if Sam had been a woman and said "you'd make a good dog break his leash" it would be viewed as nothing but a complement, but since the assistant wasn't aware of their friendly relationship I can see how she might get the wrong idea initially
Okay, I just realized I have encountered Courtney Stoker before, and I actually really liked one of her blog posts that made the rounds a few months ago:
As I said to Amanda Hess last year, being the sexy object is one of the places where geek women can find acceptance in their communities. From the interview:
Too often, women in geek cultures are only welcomed if they are decoration, sexy versions of the things geek men love, not equal participants or fellow fans. Forever Geek, for example, has, in just the past two months, posted with glee about female models naked except for high heels and stormtrooper helmets gracing skateboards, a car wash in which women dressed in sexy Princess Leia costumes washed cars, and Star Wars corsets. Geek communities love women, as long as their members don’t have to think of those women as people.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself. When geek women choose to self-objectify at geek events, they are not doing so in a vacuum. So while I think it’s possible that some of them are trying to feel empowered in their sexuality, and reclaim their femininity, they cannot escape the fact that this is a culture that embraces female fans almost exclusively as sexy objects.
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
Unrelated, but this link took me back to Borderhouseblog, and man what the heck happened to their site layout?
I can barely navigate through it anymore, which is a shame, because it was my old favorite "geek feminism" site
At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
It ain't. It's just Hedgie and crazy people with blogs. This stuff is the chick equivalent of those "Men's Rights' neckbeards on Reddit.
Is posting a photo of a bunch of cosplayers and saying this
I've got a thing about cosplay girls. They're like zombie stormtroopers, a combination of beloved things
equate to victim blaming or what have you?
Hell no.
Is it insensitive? A bit creepy? Certainly! But they volunteered to be in the picture, and they got to meet a celebrity. Simon Pegg comes off as a bit of an asshole, but no one's perfect.
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
I don't mean this to come across as an insult or overly critical, but sometimes I get the impression that you're ever willing to challenge other people to present you with the existence of things, but seem less willing to challenge yourself to find the things you don't feel exist(in whatever numbers). Or, you seem firm in your belief that things are the way you think they are and are less willing to challenge the notions you hold to be evident.
I ask people for examples because if they hold an opposite view from mine, I presume that they have reasons for it which were compelling enough to get them to think the way they do, and would like to benefit from their knowledge and experiences.
I challenge my views a lot lately (as I described in the Tosh thread), but without new information or arguments to change the calculus in my head, I am probably going to keep coming to the same conclusion.
When I was on the “Geek Girls in Popular Culture” panel at ApolloCon, we talked about this nonsense for quite a while, because, as a couple of the panelists pointed out, it seems like a geek woman can only get attention if she’s conventionally beautiful and willing to objectify herself.
Having had several female friends that are cosplayers, I'm wondering how much of that is anecdotal evidence on the part of the panelists. Very few of these friends picked costumes that would fit the "I'm objectifying myself" category, and they didn't seem to have any issues with getting attention and some of these friends are what you could describe as average. Though these friends mainly attend anime conventions and that could have been a factor.
I think though this is getting into the realm of "Well this could be construed as offensive but you know there are more important battles to spend resources instead of this shit."
This thread has shown me that all the stereotypes about insane feminists are true. Wow guys. Wow. And I was neutral before I read this thread.
This is how I feel every time I try to learn more about feminism. It's very frustrating. At what point do you just stop making excuses, and just accept that everything you are seeing is accepted in feminism and not just the collection of crazy outliers it seems like of must be?
By that standard, all gay people are flamingly camp, because they're the most visible ones. All black people are whatever black stereotype. All suchs are such and such becasue you met one once and he was totally a dick.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
This has become a megathread, with much of the attendant frustrations, and I think it will do us good to engage in more focused discussion on topics that actually merit an OP.
Posts
http://austintotamu.com/2011/08/geek-girls-and-the-problem-of-self-objectification/
This, to me, is a much more reasonable restatement than what came through on her tweets or in her Storify link, and I think there's fertile ground here for discussion.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Victim blaming presupposes a victim.
If none of the woman pictured have a problem with peg how does anybody else have standing to complain.
Of course, if one of them did have a problem with it I would expect an apology.
I will rest my case only if you can show me a Hoth Leia.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Google made it too easy. Also, what a great cosplay.
Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
PM Me if you add me!
Aside from bottom of the barrel places like 4chan and the fighting game community, is there a video game or general nerd venue where people are anything but ecstatic to gain a female member?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah that's a way deeper and thought out analysis of females in gaming or even female cosplaying or costuming in general. I mean fuck are there more than a handful of costumes for females for Halloween that DOESN'T start with the word 'sexy'?
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
I actually think that this is because for most males, it is an alien feeling to be proud of your body. More females may be ashamed of their bodies (or not, I dunno) but I think more males think less when they look in the mirror "yeah. That looks good. Everyone wants some of this" and more "huh. Should I pop that zit now or wait until it gets huge enough that it comes out like a cannon"
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Because, as Ms. Stoker pointed out, when people - especially celebrities like Mr. Pegg - openly objectify women at events like Comic-Con, it makes her and other women feel like they're not really part of the community, but just tolerated as eye candy. Which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, and eventually pushes them out.
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Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
is there a rash of people complaining about girls that aren't cosplaying?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Even this, more reasoned out that it is, doesn't really follow into what she did to Pegg.
That said, I'm actually not sure I agree what is so desirable about "attention" here. We're not talking about a female author who gets snubbed for not playing up to her attractiveness. We're talking about getting random attention from random passers-by. If a geek artist has to be sexy for someone, anyone at all, to read her webcomic, then we might have some issues. If a geek fangirl wants to stand out in a crowd of tens of thousands of convention-goers, then being in a sexy costume is one way of doing it. I don't believe that is indicative of the convention turning your typical women away at the gates otherwise.
I recently went to a medium-ish anime convention on the invite of one of my friends. I'm not particularly into anime or an otaku, so I'm not fully familiar with everything, but there were more women at the convention than men, more female cosplayers, and there were a few whom were women cosplaying as male characters. I didn't get the feeling that they weren't welcomed or weren't getting the attention they "deserved" (whatever that is).
What if a woman comes specifically for Simon peg to drool over her? Does she get stopped at the door?
Then why is it everywhere? If the feminist blogs and forums are full of nuts, where can I go to find the same feminists?
Have you at all gained insight into female perspective and the hardships females face in holding their heads high as women from the past like, 5 threads?
If so, consider that a gift from the sane feminists.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It means you need to keep looking. Feminism is a very large community, you might never be able to interact with or read all their blogs online. That said, you need to try to understand them as equals not people who have to "win your approval" like they're auditioning for American Idol. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure before you began by giving them impossible standards to perform to since you already seem to consider them hostile third parties before you've read a word they've said. Also read some books, internet articles on feminism & talk to people outside your social or business circle (despite what you think you're in a conservative atmosphere) which are feminists. And I don't mean go to swanky places only the upper classes congregate.
edit: There are all different kinds of feminists and factions within it, no-one speaks for all feminism
@spacekungfuman
I don't mean this to come across as an insult or overly critical, but sometimes I get the impression that you're ever willing to challenge other people to present you with the existence of things, but seem less willing to challenge yourself to find the things you don't feel exist(in whatever numbers). Or, you seem firm in your belief that things are the way you think they are and are less willing to challenge the notions you hold to be evident.
So, why is it necessary that one of the specific women involved has to be bothered? The point is that Pegg's actions help to continue to foster a hostile environment that is offputting to the female members of the community. And you know what? It's not like she's asking for a lot - she would just like for female cosplayers to not be treated like they're food. I don't think that's all that hard.
It took me a bit to find it, but this should help illustrate the point.
So, mission accomplished!
You can't prove that; the man co-wrote a movie about zombies. Zombies eat human flesh. Therefor, Simon Pegg was going to eat those women. All of them.
Every. Last. One.
Edit: I actually would have linked to where he literally makes the drooling noise while ogling the Gummi Venus de Milo but it only exists in Spanish on youtube.
The whole joke of the moan is that it sounds like lust. I wish I could find that interview. I think it was David X. Cohen.
It's my opinion that this particular blogger did not pick this specific battle very wisely. Nor did this celebrity pick the battle of who to reply to on twitter very wisely.
Ha ha ha.... ha
Feminism isn't a monolithic block man, it's not a political party with party leaders, there's huge spectrums within feminism even if to a casual observer it looks like everyone who self identifies as feminist resembles the ones who make blog posts about web comics because those are the most vocal people on the internet. It would be like identifying all Republicans by the ones who run conservative blogs, who are by and large typically loony toons religious whackos.
The most vocal feminists are the ones who, you know, would call someone getting their feelings hurt part of the "War on women" where as the majority focus on things like planned parenthood not getting stomped, stopping domestic violence, fighting the glass ceiling, shit like that. I've met tons of amazing feminists when I worked for the YWAC in the sexual assault counseling offices.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Which isn't treating them like food.
I'm watching the west wing on one monitor and watching a west wing clip on the other, this is bizarre
And that's a pretty good clip, although the assistant actually has every right to speak up if sam's conversation with ainslee offends her. In this case though Sam didn't really say anything bad, if Sam had been a woman and said "you'd make a good dog break his leash" it would be viewed as nothing but a complement, but since the assistant wasn't aware of their friendly relationship I can see how she might get the wrong idea initially
Unrelated, but this link took me back to Borderhouseblog, and man what the heck happened to their site layout?
I can barely navigate through it anymore, which is a shame, because it was my old favorite "geek feminism" site
I ask people for examples because if they hold an opposite view from mine, I presume that they have reasons for it which were compelling enough to get them to think the way they do, and would like to benefit from their knowledge and experiences.
I challenge my views a lot lately (as I described in the Tosh thread), but without new information or arguments to change the calculus in my head, I am probably going to keep coming to the same conclusion.
Having had several female friends that are cosplayers, I'm wondering how much of that is anecdotal evidence on the part of the panelists. Very few of these friends picked costumes that would fit the "I'm objectifying myself" category, and they didn't seem to have any issues with getting attention and some of these friends are what you could describe as average. Though these friends mainly attend anime conventions and that could have been a factor.
I think though this is getting into the realm of "Well this could be construed as offensive but you know there are more important battles to spend resources instead of this shit."
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
By that standard, all gay people are flamingly camp, because they're the most visible ones. All black people are whatever black stereotype. All suchs are such and such becasue you met one once and he was totally a dick.