We discussed it when I was in ITT Tech (6 or so years ago). But it was mostly "Keep your code separate from your UIs so that it's easy to change the UI, adapt to different systems, and reuse the code in other applications."
In practice logic is all in classes and code, and I call 5-6 lines at a time. A button I press activates a function in my object, then I take the output data and format it for the screen, then attach it to the GUI. Whether this is classic MVC or not, I don't know because I do this shit by myself and haven't worked with another programmer since I graduated. Weeee flying by the seat of my pants.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
@zeeny I don't know exact ages (avoid asking, yay legal issues) but two had BSs in the last year, so 21-22 and one a masters so maybe 24. It's all web development so we're talking HTML, CSS, javascript etc. The frameworks in play were CakePHP (ya, ya, i know, booo PHP) and some RoR because we're trialing moving to that for future projects now that we've finally matured enough to not need a prototype in 3 days. I didn't even play with the idea of putting them on our apps, Obj-C and Java based.
Our newest hire is a 20 odd years old junior and while he still has a lot to learn, oop, mvc etc are concepts that you don't really need to elaborate on the level required to be productive. I want to say you have a hiring process problem and you should lay off the tests and focus on the interview, but well, I have no actual idea about the Chicago job market.
Going into hiring him, he answered all the questions properly, had code samples, and our current rock-star developer went through the same exact program at the same exact school.
Personal interest, attitude and abilities come way before "Where did you study and what is your GPA?" for me. Programming as a field is lucky to have a lot of workers who are genuinely interested in what they are doing and the difference between such a person and a guy who went through the program to get a job is staggering.
PS: Reading through, Infid probably put it better.
PPS: I may be jumping to live across the pond again next year, so could be I bump into some of the Great North PA contingent.;o)
We discussed it when I was in ITT Tech (6 or so years ago). But it was mostly "Keep your code separate from your UIs so that it's easy to change the UI, adapt to different systems, and reuse the code in other applications."
In practice logic is all in classes and code, and I call 5-6 lines at a time. A button I press activates a function in my object, then I take the output data and format it for the screen, then attach it to the GUI. Whether this is classic MVC or not, I don't know because I do this shit by myself and haven't worked with another programmer since I graduated. Weeee flying by the seat of my pants.
Sounds more like generic separation of concerns-ed n-tier app shit to me.
Classic MVC is basically:
Even then, MVC is a presentation pattern. The models are generally view models, which are just DTOs. The real models/entities/domain lie below.
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MVC seems like it adds nothing over separation of concern. Except, possibly, taking something simple and making it more complex by adding another step.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
MVC is just an application of separation of concern.
@zeeny I don't know exact ages (avoid asking, yay legal issues) but two had BSs in the last year, so 21-22 and one a masters so maybe 24. It's all web development so we're talking HTML, CSS, javascript etc. The frameworks in play were CakePHP (ya, ya, i know, booo PHP) and some RoR because we're trialing moving to that for future projects now that we've finally matured enough to not need a prototype in 3 days. I didn't even play with the idea of putting them on our apps, Obj-C and Java based.
Our newest hire is a 20 odd years old junior and while he still has a lot to learn, oop, mvc etc are concepts that you don't really need to elaborate on the level required to be productive. I want to say you have a hiring process problem and you should lay off the tests and focus on the interview, but well, I have no actual idea about the Chicago job market.
Going into hiring him, he answered all the questions properly, had code samples, and our current rock-star developer went through the same exact program at the same exact school.
Personal interest, attitude and abilities come way before "Where did you study and what is your GPA?" for me. Programming as a field is lucky to have a lot of workers who are genuinely interested in what they are doing and the difference between such a person and a guy who went through the program to get a job is staggering.
I wasn't putting weight into where he went or what his GPA was too much at the time of hiring. It was merely an observational thing after the fact that these two non-self taught guys came out of essentially the same class structure with completely different skill sets: academic versus applied computer science. That only confirms how little weight I can truly put there. I do however agree that this is a hiring process issue more than anything else, we should be able to avoid this issue. However, my statement on the Chicago developer market was more due to the fact that these are the only guys we are getting. We aren't getting offers turned down by senior guys, etc. End of the day, I need to refine my interview questions to weed out these guys who know it enough to talk about it but not to properly use it (i.e. how I am with cars).
To the guys mentioning salary being listed, we do not list anything. I haven't seen a job posting in a long time with a salary listed outside of maybe government positions.
That's why you're getting what you're getting. I don't know much about your company but if you're offering $20,000 for a junior position, prepare to get bottom of the barrel. Or only $34K to do kernel driver development.
I pretty much don't interview unless a salary is posted anymore. That way I know if it's a waste of my time, you know, having to use personal time to go into them. I hate showing up to interviews, and I've said this a few times, that requires a PhD and 8 years of experience and offers me $12/hr. Oh I don't have the PhD... oh well you're not quite the candidate we were hoping for so $9.35/hr.
You want to draw people who are already in the field, salary postings do this. You don't want out of work/desperate devs. You'll get hard to use or just graduated ones (not necessarily bad).
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+1
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I'm looking at it and it looks like it takes interfaces and polymorphism to fucking extremes in most practical examples I've found.
I much prefer my method. Seems to work fine without mucking it up with all these controllers and interfaces.
Ehhhhh.
I mean, I don't know the details of your method or what examples you're looking at (it may also be that you're working on the desktop, whereas I'm working on the web) but there's a lot of value to the Controller pattern.
That's why you're getting what you're getting. I don't know much about your company but if you're offering $20,000 for a junior position, prepare to get bottom of the barrel. Or only $34K to do kernel driver development.
I pretty much don't interview unless a salary is posted anymore. That way I know if it's a waste of my time, you know, having to use personal time to go into them. I hate showing up to interviews, and I've said this a few times, that requires a PhD and 8 years of experience and offers me $12/hr. Oh I don't have the PhD... oh well you're not quite the candidate we were hoping for so $9.35/hr.
You want to draw people who are already in the field, salary postings do this. You don't want out of work/desperate devs. You'll get hard to use or just graduated ones (not necessarily bad).
Indeed. Even putting a range out there lets people know what to expect. And there are some SHITTY companies out there that want insane requirements for terrible pay, but you don't know that until you get in person with them. A lot of candidates, especially the good ones, are just tired of feeling like their time is being wasted just so they can see the potential salary. I've had more than a handful of friends go through the exact same routine and then just start passing over job listings b/c there is no salary range listed.
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Desktop here. I posted it above. Basically I have a selection of classes/objects that implement my front end.
So for example a patient class, that has things like demographics/records/diagnoses objects tied to them.
So when I load the Diagnoses tab, I draw the diagnoses from my object, and load it into my grid. Done. It's 3-4 lines of code tops in my UI. If I want to change the format, I change the UI portion. If I want to change the object as a whole, if I change what engine I use, or how I get the diagnoses, it won't affect my ui at all.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
When he's trying to hire junior developers, he doesn't really need to do or say anything in particular. The position is posted.
You're just going to have to wade through a lot of shit, and the interview your goal is to discern whether you think they'll cope or not.
Adaptability, responsibility, all mostly personal traits are what you need in a junior level. If they have that, and went through a CS program, they're worth a shot probably. The CS program is a small part of the process, and can be easily checked off before the interview. You have the interview for all that other shit, which is the truly important shit.
The nice thing about MVC (at least, in the cases I've used it) is that because the pattern is well defined, most of it can be automatically implemented by default and convention.
I actually implemented a session object too because I really like how web interfaces carry data that way. So instead of passing data back and forth through objects, I pass a UID session identifier to pull data from there. This way, one object, and it I can use what I need globally (screw you I'm lazy!)
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
When he's trying to hire junior developers, he doesn't really need to do or say anything in particular. The position is posted.
You're just going to have to wade through a lot of shit, and the interview your goal is to discern whether you think they'll cope or not.
Adaptability, responsibility, all mostly personal traits are what you need in a junior level. If they have that, and went through a CS program, they're worth a shot probably. The CS program is a small part of the process, and can be easily checked off before the interview. You have the interview for all that other shit, which is the truly important shit.
Ah I was speaking from his super master developer guy that sucked.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
@bowen That's a great way of looking at it actually, hadn't thought about it from that angle. Thanks for the feedback guys. We're definitely offering well, well over the $20k, not looking to screw anyone over or waste any interviewees time. I could see how someone assumes the worst with no salary listed, especially in our field where everyone and their brother has the next big idea and just needs to find a programmer to make it a reality for as close to $0 as possible.
The Chicago webdev market is basically 100% RoR based on the couple of meetups I've attended here. That might explain the lack of experienced applicants.
The diagram above also isn't 100% accurate with the way it's done on the web. Here's how it works for the web:
Request comes into the server
|
|
|
V
Front Controller (not to be confused with a MVC controller) takes the request, and sends it to the Router
|
|
|
V
Router parses the request and fetches the correct MVC controller, and executes the proper method on it (MVC controllers are nothing more than Command objects)
|
|
|
V
Inside the MVC controller, it grabs data from the domain and stuffs it in a view model. It then selects a view (HTML template), and tells it to render using the view model data
On the web, contrary to what the diagram showed, views themselves aren't usually updated by a controller. Instead, view models are updated, and that is reflected in the views. It's nothing you haven't done a gazillion times, just more codified.
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The Chicago webdev market is basically 100% RoR based on the couple of meetups I've attended here. That might explain the lack of experienced applicants.
I've noticed that as well, which is a big driver in our future projects being RoR.
@bowen That's a great way of looking at it actually, hadn't thought about it from that angle. Thanks for the feedback guys. We're definitely offering well, well over the $20k, not looking to screw anyone over or waste any interviewees time. I could see how someone assumes the worst with no salary listed, especially in our field where everyone and their brother has the next big idea and just needs to find a programmer to make it a reality for as close to $0 as possible.
I'll make that change in our listings ASAP.
Oh yeah not saying you were! But that has been my experience. Generally the ones who don't give me a range will offer me less than I made at UPS working 4 hours a night (hot damn those benefits I would murder someone for).
Just a range works. Like 40,000-60,000 Or commensurate on experience. This let's the experienced guy knowing hey maybe I can get $65 since I'm making 60 now and I know what I'm doing, and the lower junior devs, hey that's a good deal let me see if I can do it!
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
@bowen That's a great way of looking at it actually, hadn't thought about it from that angle. Thanks for the feedback guys. We're definitely offering well, well over the $20k, not looking to screw anyone over or waste any interviewees time. I could see how someone assumes the worst with no salary listed, especially in our field where everyone and their brother has the next big idea and just needs to find a programmer to make it a reality for as close to $0 as possible.
I'll make that change in our listings ASAP.
Oh yeah not saying you were! But that has been my experience. Generally the ones who don't give me a range will offer me less than I made at UPS working 4 hours a night (hot damn those benefits I would murder someone for).
Just a range works. Like 40,000-60,000 Or commensurate on experience. This let's the experienced guy knowing hey maybe I can get $65 since I'm making 60 now and I know what I'm doing, and the lower junior devs, hey that's a good deal let me see if I can do it!
Ya, that's a great idea. We aren't necessarily shooting for juniors only, it's just what has been popping up. The wide net salary wise potentially speaking to both is definitely our best bet, if anything showing them that we're not paying them in IOUs or only in be-our-bitch bucks (also known as equity).
I've had people fight with me on listing salaries before because they've been doing the hiring for a while but they almost always get terrible applicants (some guy in H/A subforum was having trouble and I told him he should offer a range because he wanted a talented person and not a junior application). Straight up most say they won't because it gives them more leverage to lowball them. (If your range is 40-60K and the person lowballs you at 34K, you can negotiate even lower... not all companies are like that though).
Last thing you want is someone finding out how much less then others they are making, and regret it, and look elsewhere after you invested in training them too. It's a shitty work environment.
And if you're looking for super talented individuals, this lets them know if you're wasting each others time!
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
When he's trying to hire junior developers, he doesn't really need to do or say anything in particular. The position is posted.
You're just going to have to wade through a lot of shit, and the interview your goal is to discern whether you think they'll cope or not.
Adaptability, responsibility, all mostly personal traits are what you need in a junior level. If they have that, and went through a CS program, they're worth a shot probably. The CS program is a small part of the process, and can be easily checked off before the interview. You have the interview for all that other shit, which is the truly important shit.
Ah I was speaking from his super master developer guy that sucked.
The Masters in CS (not a master coder) came in as a junior developer, and couldn't even hack that.
The post-grad CS crowd is more likely to have duds like these. Me and my post-grad friends (physics, mainly) always joke about "fuck that, I'd have to get a real job" when discussing post-grad.
A CS BSc is much more common, and likely has either no work experience or co-op work experience. A post-grad on the other hand has academic/research work experience, which often should count as nega-experience. :rotate:
We have a guy with a MS degree here and he basically spends 10+ hours a day here. I don't know if it's because he can't keep up or what but it's really odd. Sometimes I'll get release emails from him at like 1am.
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
We have a guy with a MS degree here and he basically spends 10+ hours a day here. I don't know if it's because he can't keep up or what but it's really odd. Sometimes I'll get release emails from him at like 1am.
He might not have anything better to do. Honkey do you guys get OT on top of your salary? He may just not have a life outside of work and is getting a ton of extra money on top of his base salary.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You know there is a lot of time off being taken when the chain of auto-away "contact X for assistance if needed" has chained its way all the way down to the developer.
I am kinda hoping something comes up so that I can make executive decisions while the team is gone!
Most likely I'll get emails from the sites just trolling me though.
Posts
hurhurhurhurhuhruhrh
That image. The most appropriate response.
I'm to the point now where I don't want to have thousands of directories of files chilling out like:
active\2012\12\patient_xyz.pdf
active\2011\12\patient2_xyz.pdf
If I have something like 50 gigs of files, is this a problem? Should I just leave it on the file system? Backups are a concern here I take it?
My obsessive bookmarking of imgur links never fails to pay off.
You're welcome.
In practice logic is all in classes and code, and I call 5-6 lines at a time. A button I press activates a function in my object, then I take the output data and format it for the screen, then attach it to the GUI. Whether this is classic MVC or not, I don't know because I do this shit by myself and haven't worked with another programmer since I graduated. Weeee flying by the seat of my pants.
Our newest hire is a 20 odd years old junior and while he still has a lot to learn, oop, mvc etc are concepts that you don't really need to elaborate on the level required to be productive. I want to say you have a hiring process problem and you should lay off the tests and focus on the interview, but well, I have no actual idea about the Chicago job market.
Personal interest, attitude and abilities come way before "Where did you study and what is your GPA?" for me. Programming as a field is lucky to have a lot of workers who are genuinely interested in what they are doing and the difference between such a person and a guy who went through the program to get a job is staggering.
PS: Reading through, Infid probably put it better.
PPS: I may be jumping to live across the pond again next year, so could be I bump into some of the Great North PA contingent.;o)
Sounds more like generic separation of concerns-ed n-tier app shit to me.
Classic MVC is basically:
Even then, MVC is a presentation pattern. The models are generally view models, which are just DTOs. The real models/entities/domain lie below.
Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
I much prefer my method. Seems to work fine without mucking it up with all these controllers and interfaces.
I wasn't putting weight into where he went or what his GPA was too much at the time of hiring. It was merely an observational thing after the fact that these two non-self taught guys came out of essentially the same class structure with completely different skill sets: academic versus applied computer science. That only confirms how little weight I can truly put there. I do however agree that this is a hiring process issue more than anything else, we should be able to avoid this issue. However, my statement on the Chicago developer market was more due to the fact that these are the only guys we are getting. We aren't getting offers turned down by senior guys, etc. End of the day, I need to refine my interview questions to weed out these guys who know it enough to talk about it but not to properly use it (i.e. how I am with cars).
To the guys mentioning salary being listed, we do not list anything. I haven't seen a job posting in a long time with a salary listed outside of maybe government positions.
I pretty much don't interview unless a salary is posted anymore. That way I know if it's a waste of my time, you know, having to use personal time to go into them. I hate showing up to interviews, and I've said this a few times, that requires a PhD and 8 years of experience and offers me $12/hr. Oh I don't have the PhD... oh well you're not quite the candidate we were hoping for so $9.35/hr.
You want to draw people who are already in the field, salary postings do this. You don't want out of work/desperate devs. You'll get hard to use or just graduated ones (not necessarily bad).
Ehhhhh.
I mean, I don't know the details of your method or what examples you're looking at (it may also be that you're working on the desktop, whereas I'm working on the web) but there's a lot of value to the Controller pattern.
Indeed. Even putting a range out there lets people know what to expect. And there are some SHITTY companies out there that want insane requirements for terrible pay, but you don't know that until you get in person with them. A lot of candidates, especially the good ones, are just tired of feeling like their time is being wasted just so they can see the potential salary. I've had more than a handful of friends go through the exact same routine and then just start passing over job listings b/c there is no salary range listed.
Listen to our podcast, read our articles, tell us how much you hate it and how to make it better
So for example a patient class, that has things like demographics/records/diagnoses objects tied to them.
So when I load the Diagnoses tab, I draw the diagnoses from my object, and load it into my grid. Done. It's 3-4 lines of code tops in my UI. If I want to change the format, I change the UI portion. If I want to change the object as a whole, if I change what engine I use, or how I get the diagnoses, it won't affect my ui at all.
You're just going to have to wade through a lot of shit, and the interview your goal is to discern whether you think they'll cope or not.
Adaptability, responsibility, all mostly personal traits are what you need in a junior level. If they have that, and went through a CS program, they're worth a shot probably. The CS program is a small part of the process, and can be easily checked off before the interview. You have the interview for all that other shit, which is the truly important shit.
Ah I was speaking from his super master developer guy that sucked.
I'll make that change in our listings ASAP.
On the web, contrary to what the diagram showed, views themselves aren't usually updated by a controller. Instead, view models are updated, and that is reflected in the views. It's nothing you haven't done a gazillion times, just more codified.
Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
I've noticed that as well, which is a big driver in our future projects being RoR.
Oh yeah not saying you were! But that has been my experience. Generally the ones who don't give me a range will offer me less than I made at UPS working 4 hours a night (hot damn those benefits I would murder someone for).
Just a range works. Like 40,000-60,000 Or commensurate on experience. This let's the experienced guy knowing hey maybe I can get $65 since I'm making 60 now and I know what I'm doing, and the lower junior devs, hey that's a good deal let me see if I can do it!
Ya, that's a great idea. We aren't necessarily shooting for juniors only, it's just what has been popping up. The wide net salary wise potentially speaking to both is definitely our best bet, if anything showing them that we're not paying them in IOUs or only in be-our-bitch bucks (also known as equity).
Last thing you want is someone finding out how much less then others they are making, and regret it, and look elsewhere after you invested in training them too. It's a shitty work environment.
And if you're looking for super talented individuals, this lets them know if you're wasting each others time!
The Masters in CS (not a master coder) came in as a junior developer, and couldn't even hack that.
The post-grad CS crowd is more likely to have duds like these. Me and my post-grad friends (physics, mainly) always joke about "fuck that, I'd have to get a real job" when discussing post-grad.
A CS BSc is much more common, and likely has either no work experience or co-op work experience. A post-grad on the other hand has academic/research work experience, which often should count as nega-experience. :rotate:
Does your boss twirl his mustache and cackle as he walks through your office?
Really doesn't like his family?
No... But that would be hilarious!
Oh well it was worth a thought. Dude's just dumb then.
You know there is a lot of time off being taken when the chain of auto-away "contact X for assistance if needed" has chained its way all the way down to the developer.
I am kinda hoping something comes up so that I can make executive decisions while the team is gone!
Most likely I'll get emails from the sites just trolling me though.