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[PATV] Friday, June 8, 2012 - Penny Arcade: The Series Season 3, Ep. 30: Turnaround (4th Panel)

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited June 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
image[PATV] Friday, June 8, 2012 - Penny Arcade: The Series Season 3, Ep. 30: Turnaround (4th Panel)

Tastefully straddling the line between documentary and guilty-pleasure voyeurism, Penny Arcade: The Series collects the bizarre continuum of one of the world's strangest companies. In this episode, our heroes create the strip "<a href="http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/06/01&quot; target="_blank">Turnaround</a>."

Read the full story here

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    DJSchmittyDJSchmitty [E] Tacoma, WARegistered User regular
    You cant please everyone, because most people are dumb (including myself). I found that the Hitman trailer was simply trying to present the atmosphere of over the top violence, not over sexualizing women.

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    J. D. MilknutJ. D. Milknut Lord of Chipmunks Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I get their point but I still think they were a little off-base. It's not that the trailer diminishes the industry as a whole. It's that it's insulting to watch as a human being. This is why I would say it should not exist. And what's wrong with the trailer goes beyond sexy women. The trailer is essentially a group of beautiful women in culturally offensive (not to mention immature) uniforms undressing as they go to be completely dominated and brutalized by a single man. Is it such a surprise that the creators are being called misogynists? I don't find myself gravely wounded by the trailer. I just think it's an example of a very stupid thing that should not be made ever by anyone. And this is not just a male-female dynamic thing for me. If the Crazy 88 had been wearing Chippendales outfits I would be equally disgusted.

    J. D. Milknut on
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Sure, but they weren't responding to that argument.

    They were responding to the argument that they started to see in places like Kotaku sensationalizing what this trailer represented for the gaming industry.

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I read the Kotaku article, and I didn't take from it what either Mike or Jerry did. The author is talking about when those girls become adults, how angry they will be because of how sexist the games industry is. Seems pretty legit.

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    Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    I read the Kotaku article, and I didn't take from it what either Mike or Jerry did. The author is talking about when those girls become adults, how angry they will be because of how sexist the games industry is. Seems pretty legit.

    I didn't get what Mike seemed to get out of it either, but I think, seeing that he wasn't reading it at the time, and Jerry didn't pull it up and read it, he was going off of an impression he got from part of it that he remembered and he didn't recall liking it. Memory works like that sometimes.

    Reading the article, it made me think that while I know there ARE games with chainmail bikinis around, I can't really remember the last time I played a game that had really oversexualized female hero characters like that. It seems to me that a lot of games ARE shifting away from that general dynamic, at least in my (limited by time and money) experience.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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    TheSpyderTheSpyder Registered User regular
    And what exactly is wrong with objectifying women in a fantasy setting? There's a whole trend now in Kotaku and other sites like it where well meaning people seem to ignore how a human male operates. It's not like they dont have an awareness of it, look at all the cosplay and tit news stories they have on the frontpage.

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    TheSpyderTheSpyder Registered User regular
    And what exactly is wrong with objectifying women in a fantasy setting? There's a whole trend now in Kotaku and other sites like it where well meaning people seem to ignore how a human male operates. It's not like they dont have an awareness of it, look at all the cosplay and tit news stories they have on the frontpage.

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    AsmodouesAsmodoues Registered User new member
    edited June 2012
    You really have to ask what's wrong with objectifying women? As a male gamer myself, I hate the fact that some companies seem to think that every game is improved by adding cleavage. It's insulting to me to assume that all men love seeing tits so much they don't mind having immersion ruined by seeing women in stupid, implausible outfits. And as a male gamer with a sense of empathy, I feel for women who can't play a blockbuster title without having to accept the reduction of their gender to a sex object.

    Your entire point is based around the concept of gaming as a "boy's club" that women shouldn't be invited to, and that's pointlessly exclusionary- you can make great games that both genders like, and you can even have attractive women in it. There's a difference between having a pretty girl in your game, and giving her an outfit a stripper would be uncomfortable wearing.

    Asmodoues on
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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I'm in a weird position, personally. I openly admit to liking some of the things that people do for pandering - to an extent. But I also am really, REALLY tired of seeing it everywhere in gaming, in place of women of all personalities. And no, I don't mean strong, independent women... I mean well written characters, which can come across as 2 or 3 dimensional based on their established personalities and their role in the game. I don't want everyone to be a supermodel or an S&M Fetishist. I want realistic depictions of females. I think that's why Miranda has grown on me as I have played ME2. She knows she was created in part to be eye candy, and she uses that to the best of her ability. True, so far she's pretty two dimensional, but still.

    Athenor on
    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
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    Burden of ProofBurden of Proof You three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on. Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Asmodoues wrote: »
    You really have to ask what's wrong with objectifying women? [...] There's a difference between having a pretty girl in your game, and giving her an outfit a stripper would be uncomfortable wearing.

    You don't think that there are games, or at least certain situations, where such things are completely appropriate?

    Burden of Proof on
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    amybdenumamybdenum Registered User regular
    OK, so the film industry was used as an example about entertainment being a spectrum. So...whats the game equivalent of an overhyped formulaic rom-com? And where do I get it?

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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    I
    amybdenum wrote: »
    OK, so the film industry was used as an example about entertainment being a spectrum. So...whats the game equivalent of an overhyped formulaic rom-com? And where do I get it?

    Japanese dating sims?

    Alt: Final Fantasy.

    He/Him | "A boat is always safest in the harbor, but that’s not why we build boats." | "If you run, you gain one. If you move forward, you gain two." - Suletta Mercury, G-Witch
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    NewbsNewbs King Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    .

    Newbs on
    Hi, I see that you're good at Centipede.
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    GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Not really interested in diving deep into this again after the first thread, but a couple of things I thought were interesting after watching the video and comparing it to how many of us initially interpreted the comic and the discussion we had.

    1. Neither of them really defends the trailer, beyond Mike saying he thought it was kind of cool if they were going for a grindhouse aesthetic. (Incidentally, I was greatly amused by Jerry refusing to even watch the trailer due to its stupidity but thinking the the game might be great whereas Mike was alright with the trailer but is sure he'll hate the game.)

    2. Whereas the thread here focused almost entirely on sexism, the conversation they had was more about games that are and are not suitable for kids.

    3. It seems pretty clear now that the central point they were trying to make, which Jerry tried to hit fairly hard in his newspost but which I think got mostly lost in all our talk about sexism, was that games still don't get recognition as a medium the way, for example, film does, and so every individual game is endowed with two great a sense of importance in representing the industry.

    "Then let's DO that, Michael, we've been here for a while."

    "That was your shot, buddy. You got called up to the big leagues and you blew it."

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    DeviantSolutionDeviantSolution and all the kings horses and all the kings men... Registered User new member
    Is anyone else having an issue with the video showing nothing but "Sorry, this episode is temporarily unavailable."? I thought it popping up on the last episode was just some random error that would be fixed but it's doing that with all of the episodes now, including past episodes that I've watched before. I tried wiping my cache and that didn't help either.

    Help? I'm using Chrome.

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    AsmodouesAsmodoues Registered User new member
    "You don't think that there are games, or at least certain situations, where such things are completely appropriate?"
    Of course there are. The problem with this is that those games and situations are created by men- they don't appear from the aether fully formed, and hurl themselves into someone's head until a game is extruded. Someone creates that character or situation, and it's usually for the express purpose of titillation. And that's fine- but the person I was responding to was making a rousing defense of leering, juvenile objectification in fantasy games as though it was his right, and a biological imperative.
    My issue with fantasy games- which he mentioned specifically- is that they are trying to create a new world to inhabit, or at least create an atmosphere where sweeping stories or larger than life characters can exist. Having women in bikini chainmail is such obvious pandering to masculine libido that it makes it so much more difficult to invest in the setting- it's like having a little note on your monitor that says "It's just pretend" you keep looking at every time you see one of them.

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    ZuelZuel Registered User regular
    Women are things

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    TwoflowerTwoflower Registered User regular
    There's one flaw on the thinking of "It's a medium, not finite, and one piece of crap doesn't drag everything down."

    The problem is one of perception of the industry as a whole, and the sensationalism of one particular loud and obvious glaring example of the worst gaming can offer. That one example may not destroy much better games, but it becomes the lighthouse that people beyond the industry use to see the industry -- the shining example. And not the one we wanted them to see.

    If intelligent and non-trashy games were able to scream just as loudly and reach that external audience, it wouldn't be an issue. But right now, the media latches onto latex battle nuns first, instead of dimension shifting puzzles. Scandal sells more.

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    Dual1tyDual1ty Registered User regular
    Australia is a nanny state, and I live here. It's upsetting. It's getting better, slowly, but yeah... There's always some idiot screaming 'think of the children' essentially.

    Not that the US doesn't seem to have it's share of these problems too, but for whatever reason Australia is way more locked down.

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    The Good Doctor TranThe Good Doctor Tran Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Not really interested in diving deep into this again after the first thread, but a couple of things I thought were interesting after watching the video and comparing it to how many of us initially interpreted the comic and the discussion we had.

    1. Neither of them really defends the trailer, beyond Mike saying he thought it was kind of cool if they were going for a grindhouse aesthetic. (Incidentally, I was greatly amused by Jerry refusing to even watch the trailer due to its stupidity but thinking the the game might be great whereas Mike was alright with the trailer but is sure he'll hate the game.)

    2. Whereas the thread here focused almost entirely on sexism, the conversation they had was more about games that are and are not suitable for kids.

    3. It seems pretty clear now that the central point they were trying to make, which Jerry tried to hit fairly hard in his newspost but which I think got mostly lost in all our talk about sexism, was that games still don't get recognition as a medium the way, for example, film does, and so every individual game is endowed with two great a sense of importance in representing the industry.

    I tend to fall more into this camp, though as people pointed out in the first thread the more troubling issue is that game marketing people think we WANT to see this as a sub-culture, and while the Hitman trailer is not good, it is at least a sort-of established trope or aesthetic that they're playing off of. It doesn't have the whole violation schtick that, say, the Tomb Raider trailer has (and for the record I'm not impugning Tomb Raider as an entire game for its trailer, so let's not go down that road again).

    The Good Doctor Tran on
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    GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Twoflower wrote: »
    There's one flaw on the thinking of "It's a medium, not finite, and one piece of crap doesn't drag everything down."

    The problem is one of perception of the industry as a whole, and the sensationalism of one particular loud and obvious glaring example of the worst gaming can offer.

    This is a symptom of the problem that people don't recognize games as a medium.

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    kingschiebikingschiebi GermanyRegistered User regular
    Is anyone else having an issue with the video showing nothing but "Sorry, this episode is temporarily unavailable."? I thought it popping up on the last episode was just some random error that would be fixed but it's doing that with all of the episodes now, including past episodes that I've watched before. I tried wiping my cache and that didn't help either.

    Help? I'm using Chrome.

    Same problem here and it seems to be related to my origin address.
    Using our US proxy everything works fine, so I assume that non-US IP requests are blocked (Germany here).

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    TheSpyder wrote: »
    And what exactly is wrong with objectifying women in a fantasy setting? There's a whole trend now in Kotaku and other sites like it where well meaning people seem to ignore how a human male operates. It's not like they dont have an awareness of it, look at all the cosplay and tit news stories they have on the frontpage.

    That trend exists because the vast majority of women in these settings are treated this way. Wouldn't you have a problem if every game was portraying men as beefcakes in sexual poses (sometimes blatantly a la this trailer, but sometimes just as powerless dependent wimps that rely on the main character for help)? After a while, wouldn't you be saying, "hey can we have a couple games where the guys aren't oiled up and wearing assless chaps"?

    You can count the number of "strong" and "independent" female characters on one hand for the most part when it comes to AAA games. That's whats wrong with it. Males are not the only audience, and not all of those even want to see T&A. What about the gay guys? What about the ones that want some maturity on the subject? And last but not least, what about the women that want to play games like this?

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    Tss_fanTss_fan Registered User regular
    I have watched a preroll ad three times now it goes like this; garage door, followed by a woman lecturing a guy, and it panning down to his stomach, end. Is this supposed to be some weird viral marketing thing where it gets you talking about how terrible and aggravating the ad is only to find out its for anti-depressants or something?

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    LuxLux Registered User regular
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Twoflower wrote: »
    There's one flaw on the thinking of "It's a medium, not finite, and one piece of crap doesn't drag everything down."

    The problem is one of perception of the industry as a whole, and the sensationalism of one particular loud and obvious glaring example of the worst gaming can offer.

    This is a symptom of the problem that people don't recognize games as a medium.

    Why does it have to be about "one piece dragging the entire medium down" and not about "critiquing one piece in a medium indicative of bigger things" the way people do so with movies, music, etc?

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    jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    It is sexist to suggest that 8 combat-hardened battlenuns can't take out one man. No man has ever survived an attack of more than three battlenuns.

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    millislimmillislim Black Sheep Sacramento, CARegistered User regular
    @Lux: because I think, that as far as video games have come, it's still not considered a legitimate medium and that the most obnoxious and public examples are the examples of "why games suck" that people tend to use. It reminds me of when I was going to college for my art degree. While it's not frowned upon NEARLY as much as the gaming industry, I can't tell you how many times I had to defend art, in that it's not all abstract paintings being sold for millions to and by beret wearing stuff shirts...but that's the worst in my medium. If someone is so dense to use the few as the standard to measure an entire group I'm not sure their opinion should mean so much or carry as much weight as we permit them to.

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    It's kind of interesting how Jerry came into this conversation thinking the argument was about sexy nuns, and not about sexy nuns being killed in a brutal grindhouse gun-battle.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Okay, I need someone to explain to me the degree of acceptability here.

    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male assassins out to kill him - A-OK
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male and female assains out to kill him - ?
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of all-female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Violance Against Women
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of scantially clad female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Morally Reprehensible Objectifation and Violance Against Women.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    TheSpyder wrote: »
    And what exactly is wrong with objectifying women in a fantasy setting? There's a whole trend now in Kotaku and other sites like it where well meaning people seem to ignore how a human male operates. It's not like they dont have an awareness of it, look at all the cosplay and tit news stories they have on the frontpage.

    I think you're ignoring how the human male operates. If you're such a person that cannot operate without some over-the-top titillation in your games, then you're an addict (either to sex or porn, or a number of other things. Seriously though, if that's you, see a psychiatrist) . If you can't have women in a game without them being hyper-sexualized, then you're sexist in the worst way and you need to fix your shit before you give male gamers a worse name. Men will respond to sexuality in general, there's a lot of studies done that show the effects of sexual imagery on the male mind are different from the female mind, but to say that men have to have titillation in a game or that women have to be objectified in games is ridiculous.


    Ultimately though, it's a grindhouse style game that's always been on the "B" side of games as far as story goes, so I'm neither impressed nor shocked by them adding "Battle Nuns". Like they said in the news post and video, the terrible games don't make the good ones worse.

    P.S. Real Battle Nuns wear powered armor, use guns the thickness of a mans torso, and go toe to toe with demons and mad psykers.
    Okay, I need someone to explain to me the degree of acceptability here.

    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male assassins out to kill him - A-OK
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male and female assains out to kill him - ?
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of all-female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Violance Against Women
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of scantially clad female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Morally Reprehensible Objectifation and Violance Against Women.

    If you threw in a few female characters on equal level with, and who are treated as equals to, Hitman, then all the above would be A-OK. If there isn't, then the game just portrays women as an over-sexualized, poorly trained, less moral version of Hitman.
    Lux wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Twoflower wrote: »
    There's one flaw on the thinking of "It's a medium, not finite, and one piece of crap doesn't drag everything down."

    The problem is one of perception of the industry as a whole, and the sensationalism of one particular loud and obvious glaring example of the worst gaming can offer.

    This is a symptom of the problem that people don't recognize games as a medium.

    Why does it have to be about "one piece dragging the entire medium down" and not about "critiquing one piece in a medium indicative of bigger things" the way people do so with movies, music, etc?
    Because this isn't that. This is picking one game, the worst example, out of about a dozen from E3 and saying that it is obviously where the market is going without even the benefit of proper release statistics. The "video games are sexist" comments also usually involve picking out two-three worst example games from hundreds released a year, holding them up as the representation of all games released that year, and then drawing a very wavy line between them to say "This is where all games are at and where they are going".

    Dedwrekka on
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Okay, I need someone to explain to me the degree of acceptability here.

    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male assassins out to kill him - A-OK
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of male and female assains out to kill him - ?
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of all-female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Violance Against Women
    Hitman brutally slaughters a platoon of scantially clad female assassins out to kill him - Not OK?: Morally Reprehensible Objectifation and Violance Against Women.

    An all female team of assassins in fatigues would probably have raised very few voices in protest.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    So to bring this home.

    It's okay to horrifically brutalize people, so long as they aren't scantially clad women?

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    So to bring this home.

    It's okay to horrifically brutalize people, so long as they aren't scantially clad women?

    It's okay to horrifically brutalize people, so long as they aren't black people dressed as slaves*?

    *Important caveat: They are only dressed as slaves because I enjoy seeing black people dressed as slaves, and not because it makes any sense in context.

    Snark aside, do you see why bringing social issues into it without appropriate context might complicate what otherwise would not be a problematic depiction?

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    suredoloveyasuredoloveya Registered User new member
    It would be one thing if depictions of women like this were outlier cases, unfortunately they are the norm. Certainly not every game has sexy nurses but problematic depictions of women abound.

    Just gonna leave this here:

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    That is great, thanks for posting that.

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    Anla-ShokAnla-Shok Registered User regular
    "You think there's a comic there?" Apparently there was just a wall of text, without a punchline...

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Sticks wrote: »
    So to bring this home.

    It's okay to horrifically brutalize people, so long as they aren't scantially clad women?

    It's okay to horrifically brutalize people, so long as they aren't black people dressed as slaves*?

    *Important caveat: They are only dressed as slaves because I enjoy seeing black people dressed as slaves, and not because it makes any sense in context.

    Snark aside, do you see why bringing social issues into it without appropriate context might complicate what otherwise would not be a problematic depiction?

    I'm saying the reaction to the trailer has been primarily over the objectifying of women and violence purpotrated towards women: the extreme ultra-violence for the sake of ultraviolence otherwise gets a pass for some reason. I just find it weird where some people draw the line.

    It's like, you know that bit in the Last of Us demo where the protagonist disarms an attacker, knocks him to the ground, and then shoots him in the face while he pleads for his life? I found that way more disturbing than the shlocky Hitman trailer, yet the prevailing opinion I've seen was that part of the demo was "badass."

    Undead Scottsman on
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    AsmodouesAsmodoues Registered User new member
    Undead Scottsman: It's almost like there's a very vocal misogynistic subculture in gaming and a long history of women being physically abused by men that makes it a touchy subject for people.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Fair enough, I'll admit as a guy I probably don't have the best perspective on this. I just think we have some screwed up sense of priorities in this country where glorification of violence gets a free pass, but woe be if those ladies are wearing objectifying outfits.

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    I think its because we accept a distinction between fantasy and reality. Violence in fantasy != violence in reality.

    I don't think we can say the same about sexism or racism because that is the real world distorting the fantasy. It's the biases and preconceptions of the creators bleeding through. Which maybe wouldn't be as big a deal if it wasn't the exact same bias that some people have to fight with every day in society. Suddenly, it's not just a power trip fantasy about being an international hitman. It's also a reminder that, if you are a woman, your role in society is to be sexy eye candy for guys to ogle. In other games, it's a reminder that, if you are a woman, your role is to be the helpless damsel who can't possibly solve the predicament she has landed in without a big strong man's help, or be the little woman who waits patiently for him to get back from adventures and reward him with sex.

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