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Camp [Phalla] Lake - Mini - Day 6: Sunkmanitu Tanka's Last Stand (Village Victory!)

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Posts

  • MrTLiciousMrTLicious Registered User regular
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I hadn't considered the possibility of a seer even being in the game based on the mechanical setup. That's the thing that screwed us in the end.

    I'm not sure. After jdark turned up green I was nearly 100% sure that Smoove was mafia (though I though Capfalcon was the 6th imaginary mafia), and I wasn't in the seer network until later. I'm sure that I wasn't the only one that came to that conclusion.

  • Smoove OperatorSmoove Operator Registered User regular
    REG Rysk wrote: »

    Not that I think we would have won (especially since I had been seered), but how was I guard vigged? Our role PM doesn't suggest that we can't be a guard, only that we have an effective guard strength of 0. It was my understanding that Mojo and I were both guarding last night, with a combined effective guard of 1. And I got guard-vigged while on guard?

    I didn't do a great job of describing what happened when the mafia said they were guarding. As I was developing the game, it went through a lot of different configurations. I finally decided on allowing you to say you were guarding whenever you wanted, but just having it not do anything.

    Unfortunately, I don't think I updated the writing in your PM well enough to really communicate that. My intention was never that you could nullify a guard vig or mess up a team by claiming to guard. REG had asked a similar question a few days before on the guard vig, and when you asked last night I realized the role PM really wasn't clear. I tried to let you know with the clarification, but I also had some real life and just got back to you a bit late.

    What? You gave the village all guard and vig abilities and we had ZERO way to mitigate that? I still don't think I knew that at the end of the game and that is ridiculous lack of balance if so.

    It's a difficult mechanic to balance, but I think I have to agree with REG's sentiment here. If mafia can guard with no rest restrictions (which we could), then we were technically guardvig immune. That's a powerful ability. HOWEVER, it is balanced by other factors:

    1) you put a for real actual Vig in the game
    2) if I claim to not be guarding one night, and my cabin tries to guardvig me...then I have effectively signed my own death warrant for lying about my orders.
    3) anytime I have ever seen it come to light that someone was immune to a vig, they are immediately put on public trial. Without a damn good explanation, they are quickly shown the door.

    While its true that this limits the village to the vote and the true Vig as the only way to eliminate mafia...isn't that standard operating procedure? And its not like mafia could use the guardvig to our advantage to get extra kills, either. If we use the kill on our own volition, its very obvious that we we went rogue and again...signing our own death warrant. The politics of the guardvig would have kept us from going on a killing spree with it. Unless there was a situation where all the mafia had finagled their way into being the sole guards of each cabin on a night were they could mathematically eliminate enough of the village to win. Seems unlikely. I don't think its a bad mechanic, I just think that mafia should have been able to guard just like a vanilla villager, rest restrictions and all (albeit with guard strength 0).

    The more I think about it while typing this, I can imagine scenarios where the mafia could potentially abuse the power. So maybe its too difficult to balance. I don't know. It's essentially putting a vig into the game that kills villagers and seers mafia. That seems fair to me. But then the mafia can also use that same vig to just kill villagers. So maybe if the village hits an unlucky streak actually finding mafia, then the mafia become way too powerful. Look now I'm just typing in circles, so I'll just quit.

    Honesty, Integrity, Handshakefulness
    _____________________________________________

    HoTS: Schmutz#1686
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    REG Rysk wrote: »

    What? You gave the village all guard and vig abilities and we had ZERO way to mitigate that? I still don't think I knew that at the end of the game and that is ridiculous lack of balance if so.

    I hadn't considered the possibility of a seer even being in the game based on the mechanical setup. That's the thing that screwed us in the end.

    True, but I gave you the ability to get 5 kills a night in a 28 person game (with the poison to help ensure that there would be unguarded teams), a weak vig (he couldn't be guarded if he killed AND his kill wouldn't be specified as village in the narration), a weak seer (he couldn't guard), the ability to kill whoever you wanted (there was no true guard, just ones you could go through) AND the ability to avoid the guard vig (by just not being on a team with villagers).

    It's still eminently possible that things were unbalanced, but I tried to give the mafia tools to get where they needed to go.

    1) The kills diminish as we lose players, and 5 kills is assuming no guards on 4 people's cabins
    2) avoiding by putting us all into a single cabin is a silly defense because we'd be found out easier

    You have to consider if the mechanical process of evasion would hinder a vote record as well. Plus the ability of the guards (see: village players) to be able to overwrite if we wanted into a cabin. It's close to balanced, but not quite perfect.

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    4.) Always, always, ALWAYS perform your own vote count.

    - The mafia really needed to do their own vote counting. A vote switch got missed in the running tally, which made it inaccurate (especially with who was in the lead) for most of the day.
    Wait a tic. What / where / when?

    Right here. You got Capfalcon's initial vote, but missed his change to stever.
    I did not. At least, the version I have has his votes as Bedlam -> Stever777 -> GrimmyTOA. Which seems to match the thread.

    It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong :)

    I just remember our vote counts differing for most of the day and that change being the reason. The mafia also missed out by not having a vote count day 3. Sir Fab actually tied the vote between Kelzor and Kime, but no one realized it. Smoove's late vote broke the tie, but had he not voted or done a throwaway, the mafia would've gotten a free Sir Fab kill.

    Moral: doing your vote count is fast and good for you!

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    REG Rysk wrote: »

    Not that I think we would have won (especially since I had been seered), but how was I guard vigged? Our role PM doesn't suggest that we can't be a guard, only that we have an effective guard strength of 0. It was my understanding that Mojo and I were both guarding last night, with a combined effective guard of 1. And I got guard-vigged while on guard?

    I didn't do a great job of describing what happened when the mafia said they were guarding. As I was developing the game, it went through a lot of different configurations. I finally decided on allowing you to say you were guarding whenever you wanted, but just having it not do anything.

    Unfortunately, I don't think I updated the writing in your PM well enough to really communicate that. My intention was never that you could nullify a guard vig or mess up a team by claiming to guard. REG had asked a similar question a few days before on the guard vig, and when you asked last night I realized the role PM really wasn't clear. I tried to let you know with the clarification, but I also had some real life and just got back to you a bit late.

    What? You gave the village all guard and vig abilities and we had ZERO way to mitigate that? I still don't think I knew that at the end of the game and that is ridiculous lack of balance if so.

    It's a difficult mechanic to balance, but I think I have to agree with REG's sentiment here. If mafia can guard with no rest restrictions (which we could), then we were technically guardvig immune. That's a powerful ability. HOWEVER, it is balanced by other factors:

    1) you put a for real actual Vig in the game
    2) if I claim to not be guarding one night, and my cabin tries to guardvig me...then I have effectively signed my own death warrant for lying about my orders.
    3) anytime I have ever seen it come to light that someone was immune to a vig, they are immediately put on public trial. Without a damn good explanation, they are quickly shown the door.

    While its true that this limits the village to the vote and the true Vig as the only way to eliminate mafia...isn't that standard operating procedure? And its not like mafia could use the guardvig to our advantage to get extra kills, either. If we use the kill on our own volition, its very obvious that we we went rogue and again...signing our own death warrant. The politics of the guardvig would have kept us from going on a killing spree with it. Unless there was a situation where all the mafia had finagled their way into being the sole guards of each cabin on a night were they could mathematically eliminate enough of the village to win. Seems unlikely. I don't think its a bad mechanic, I just think that mafia should have been able to guard just like a vanilla villager, rest restrictions and all (albeit with guard strength 0).

    The more I think about it while typing this, I can imagine scenarios where the mafia could potentially abuse the power. So maybe its too difficult to balance. I don't know. It's essentially putting a vig into the game that kills villagers and seers mafia. That seems fair to me. But then the mafia can also use that same vig to just kill villagers. So maybe if the village hits an unlucky streak actually finding mafia, then the mafia become way too powerful. Look now I'm just typing in circles, so I'll just quit.
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »

    What? You gave the village all guard and vig abilities and we had ZERO way to mitigate that? I still don't think I knew that at the end of the game and that is ridiculous lack of balance if so.

    I hadn't considered the possibility of a seer even being in the game based on the mechanical setup. That's the thing that screwed us in the end.

    True, but I gave you the ability to get 5 kills a night in a 28 person game (with the poison to help ensure that there would be unguarded teams), a weak vig (he couldn't be guarded if he killed AND his kill wouldn't be specified as village in the narration), a weak seer (he couldn't guard), the ability to kill whoever you wanted (there was no true guard, just ones you could go through) AND the ability to avoid the guard vig (by just not being on a team with villagers).

    It's still eminently possible that things were unbalanced, but I tried to give the mafia tools to get where they needed to go.

    1) The kills diminish as we lose players, and 5 kills is assuming no guards on 4 people's cabins
    2) avoiding by putting us all into a single cabin is a silly defense because we'd be found out easier

    You have to consider if the mechanical process of evasion would hinder a vote record as well. Plus the ability of the guards (see: village players) to be able to overwrite if we wanted into a cabin. It's close to balanced, but not quite perfect.

    These were a lot of discussions that I had while I was trying to put this together. And a lot of the same circles that I went around in. The initial version of the mafia guard would have let you kill everyone in your cabin if the only guards were skinchangers. While I thought the potential for 17 deaths night one in a 28 person game was kinda cool, it did seem a bit off. I brought that down to being able to guard vig, but at the expense of your normal mafia attack, and eventually to the final version. Looking at things now, there should have been a greater reason and benefit for the mafia to guard a cabin.

    One of the other big influences on writing this was watching Figgy's Edinbourough Manor mini. At the end, one of the big complaints was the mafia getting consistently getting two kill a night in a small mini. Since I'd tried to balance mine around the mafia getting two or three kills each night, I panicked a little and tried to get the village a tad bit stronger. In the original design there wasn't a seer or a busdriver, but both got added in. If I had to do it over again, I'd probably leave out the seer.

    I also really misread how the politics of guard-vig would work. I expected them to be much more common (if you have a vig, use it) and for the mafia to pick up some free village kills, both with the vigs and with killing off the suspicious vigger via the vote.

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Thanks for running this. I had a blast following the game and wish I had gotten to play more.

    Your narrations were always a fun read (love how you made forums names work into real names). The mechanics were really smart. I love games where everyone has something to do and there is a strong reason for (or a built in) soft-networking setup.

    Again, sucks I got vigged by the mafia night one. Why'd you guys aim for me?

  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Thanks for running this. I had a blast following the game and wish I had gotten to play more.

    Your narrations were always a fun read (love how you made forums names work into real names). The mechanics were really smart. I love games where everyone has something to do and there is a strong reason for (or a built in) soft-networking setup.

    Again, sucks I got vigged by the mafia night one. Why'd you guys aim for me?

    I wasn't part of the discussion, but I assume it was because you decided to stay out there on your own. Which meant you were an easy kill that could be spun as bad luck.

  • RetabaRetaba A Cultist Registered User regular
    Did anyone die from exposure?

  • The DagonThe Dagon Registered User regular
    It was a fun phalla, even though I died early. I was really hoping all the confusion from day 1 would help carry the mafia to victory, and everything looked great up to day 3, but then day 4 happened and it all kinda went to shit.

    I think I am now used to being permanently suspicious looking, I guess it's just one of those things you gotta work around.

    Steam ID : TheDagon
    PSN : TheDagon
    Pretty much every game ever : TheDagon
  • MrTLiciousMrTLicious Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    Retaba wrote: »
    Did anyone die from exposure?

    I think Obi on day 1.

    The Dagon wrote: »
    It was a fun phalla, even though I died early. I was really hoping all the confusion from day 1 would help carry the mafia to victory, and everything looked great up to day 3, but then day 4 happened and it all kinda went to shit.

    I think I am now used to being permanently suspicious looking, I guess it's just one of those things you gotta work around.

    Everyone is permanently suspicious looking.

    Though your av doesn't help :P

    MrTLicious on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Assuran wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Thanks for running this. I had a blast following the game and wish I had gotten to play more.

    Your narrations were always a fun read (love how you made forums names work into real names). The mechanics were really smart. I love games where everyone has something to do and there is a strong reason for (or a built in) soft-networking setup.

    Again, sucks I got vigged by the mafia night one. Why'd you guys aim for me?

    I wasn't part of the discussion, but I assume it was because you decided to stay out there on your own. Which meant you were an easy kill that could be spun as bad luck.

    But there was no way you guys knew I was on my own. In fact, I made it pretty clear in the thread I was in a cabin and considering there were multiple people you guys didn't have tabs on there's no way you knew I was on my own.
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Retaba wrote: »
    Did anyone die from exposure?

    I think Obi on day 1.

    Nope, I got vigged by Sunk on day one.

  • Smoove OperatorSmoove Operator Registered User regular
    You were the victim of what amounted to RNG, @ObiFett. Just mafia shots in the dark on day 1, unless someone says or does something out of the ordinary that warrants a mafia-killin'.

    That was my order though, if you want someone to hold accountable.

    Honesty, Integrity, Handshakefulness
    _____________________________________________

    HoTS: Schmutz#1686
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
    I ain't looking to grudge. :)

    Just wondering if my strategy at the beginning had any merit. Which it initially looked like it did since you guys killed people that weren't in your cabins. So on day two I was yelling at my computer "Look!! They killed people who weren't in their cabins and didn't have information about!! That means Retaba and [whoever the other person was] are village!!!" Which turned out to be true but not on purpose, it looked like because after reading your board you guys just killed randomly, I think.

    ObiFett on
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    Langly wrote: »
    Rend, you bank too much on people listening to you just because you are rend. Nothing was prohibiting you from saying I am the vig dudes do not vote me out.

    You gave no reason other than ...don't?

    I actually did this on purpose because I didn't want the hilarious renddeal anomaly to cut the game short. If I was only in contact with 1 mafia, or it had taken longer to root out the other three, I would have come out guns blazing and revealed everything I knew at the end. But I figured the mafia were at a ridiculous enough disadvantage that not knowing 100% who they were wouldn't be a death sentence for the village.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Rend, you bank too much on people listening to you just because you are rend. Nothing was prohibiting you from saying I am the vig dudes do not vote me out.

    You gave no reason other than ...don't?

    I actually did this on purpose because I didn't want the hilarious renddeal anomaly to cut the game short. If I was only in contact with 1 mafia, or it had taken longer to root out the other three, I would have come out guns blazing and revealed everything I knew at the end. But I figured the mafia were at a ridiculous enough disadvantage that not knowing 100% who they were wouldn't be a death sentence for the village.

    It turned out OK, and you are right, that is a hilarious situation. I like how that day came about :P

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    Seriously, our PM chains.

    You're welcome to being brought into that Saber.

  • SLyMSLyM Registered User regular
    I'm really surprised more people didn't slaughter each other in their sleep.

    Steam Starcraft SLeague of Legends
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    SLyM wrote: »
    I'm really surprised more people didn't slaughter each other in their sleep.

    Yeah, we had some pretty impressive restraint

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    If you bunk with me, you best post or die.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
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