I haven't checked out the nWoD Werewolf stuff. I assume it's less bonkers, since that seemed to be the direction they were moving with everything.
It's much less gonzo. The basic idea is that werewolves are half-humans that group into packs and instinctively take over a territory, with the goal of policing the spiritual landscape of the territory. It's all very local, personal; instead of "you are trying to save the world" it's, "The werewolves next door are assholes and the spirit realm is leaking into the local high school." The Tribes are basically religions; each is oriented around a Spirit that offers its support in exchange for certain behaviors. The individual stuff is keeping your human and nonhuman sides in harmony.
The world isn't dying or anything. The spirit world is a reflection of the material world; the spirits of nature are not any different than the spirits of material things in their "moral value." A pollution spirit might be dangerous, but so is a murder spirit. Like most of the nWoD, it's very local and personal. The world is bigger than you are; it doesn't need saving. You're just living a life. A violent and savage life where a twisted Silent Hill-style otherworld continually tries to intrude on the world and you're supposed to deal with that.
oWoD had so many awesome elements. The setting stuff from Werewolf. The way magic worked in Mage. The whole conflict of banality vs. wonder in Changeling. The politicking in Vampire. I never played Wraith.
If only it had all been wrapped around better dice mechanics. I would love to see oWoD get a complete mechanical overhaul, like break away from the d10 entirely kinda overhaul. Because man, every time I flip through V20, I get so nostalgic...
I haven't played WFRP but I never really liked the sound of their custom dice. I like the d% a lot, though I really do like the setting so it'd still probably draw me regardless had they gone with the custom dice/cards/tokens.
I don't know how good the WFRP dice system is, but the new Edge of the Empire narrative dice are awesome.
AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
As we get closer to my running the EotE beginner game, I'm a bit nervous about said dice. It kinda runs counter to my GM style to roll the dice out in the open where the players can affect them, not that I fudge the dice often. Also I don't have the best eyesight and using the idea of which symbols showed up on which dice seems kinda like it would involve a lot of trust in the players, and/or a lot of peering across the table.
As we get closer to my running the EotE beginner game, I'm a bit nervous about said dice. It kinda runs counter to my GM style to roll the dice out in the open where the players can affect them, not that I fudge the dice often. Also I don't have the best eyesight and using the idea of which symbols showed up on which dice seems kinda like it would involve a lot of trust in the players, and/or a lot of peering across the table.
No reason you can't toss your rolls down in front of you. It will take a handful of rolls before everybody's comfortable with counting up symbols (and their names), but once you do you'll be amazed at how interesting it is to have every roll produce two axis of results with two wildcard offshoots.
UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
I've taken the habit when running SW:EotE to roll the NPC's dice out of sight/behind the GM screen. It seems to allow quicker rolls and interpretation of results, though I suspect I'll end up deciding I prefer having the players' input on the enemies' actions. Or maybe I'm more compelled to describe more dynamic actions when I have to match the success/advantage results as seen.
The dice are definitely forcing me to think more about failing forward and player-driven campaigns. Once they've done the first adventure hook they need to be the ones telling the story, I just want to provide the scenery and fun/interesting events.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
So most likely between my NWoD Core and V:TM 2e/LotN I'll iron out some homebrew thing this weekend.
As long as Shadowrun doesn't distract me.
From the sounds of this Sabbat game, we are already Shadowrunners.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2013
I actually really liked Forsaken even compared with Apocalypse.
Albeit, it's probable that the overwhelming depression and inevitability of the loss the Werewolves were going to suffer in Apocalypse was a bit too "Call of Cthulhuish" for me and that's probably why I didn't really warm to it. Because, you know, I already have Call of Cthulhu for my "Overwhelming despair as disaster approaches".
I will say the book for Apocalypse was fucking awesome with the comic book in the front of it and the holes in the hardcover where the claw marks were. I miss books of that construction.
Werewolf the Forsaken is a really good game, but has the classic nWoD problem where the core book describes it very inexpertly
It gives you this idea that it's all about being super-terrifying apex predators
but really, in it's purest essence, being a Werewolf in the nWoD is about everyone and everything hating you
Humans hate you because you are a terrifying monster that triggers primal loathing. Other Werewolves hate you because you are aligned with the Tribes of the Moon and they are Pure/Bale Hounds. Other Werewolves from the same tribe hate you because you they are a rival pack scrabbling desperately for territory. Spirits hate you because you try and police them.
The birds hate you. The bees hate you. The trees hate you. The building you are in hates you. Your neighbours hate you. Sometimes, the Moon flips out and hates you.
The only beings that don't hate you are your pack, and they love you unconditionally. They need you and you need them, more than just practically, but instinctually. There is nothing you won't do for the pack, for the survival of people that are closer than family, closer than friends, closer than lovers.
As I said, it's really cool, and perfect for group RPG play, but it's just poorly explained.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
It's nice to see Exalted isn't the only White Wolf product that is unafraid to range far afield into the realm of the creepily intimate lately.
I know that a lot of people don't like emotional intimacy in their roleplaying games
but I love it
the most enjoyable RPGs for me are the ones where my character is snapping under the incredible raw emotional stress of the campaign, when you strip back all that social restraint and the mask of self-control, and get to really release those feelings.
I remember we played Eclipse Phase once, and my character had a total nervous breakdown, sitting in the back of a truck. It was one of my favourite roleplaying moments of all time.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I know that a lot of people don't like emotional intimacy in their roleplaying games
but I love it
the most enjoyable RPGs for me are the ones where my character is snapping under the incredible raw emotional stress of the campaign, when you strip back all that social restraint and the mask of self-control, and get to really release those feelings.
I remember we played Eclipse Phase once, and my character had a total nervous breakdown, sitting in the back of a truck. It was one of my favourite roleplaying moments of all time.
That's all well and good - like, for real, the couple times I've been a game that got there, it was neat - but trying to design it into the game's setting or mechanics skeeves me out a little.
Also I really like beating up imaginary skeletons / lizardmen / whatever.
one of the reasons I love EP so much is that the vast majority of the setting is clearly designed as a way for the guitar wire of your character to be methodically tightened to the point of breaking.
It's nice to see Exalted isn't the only White Wolf product that is unafraid to range far afield into the realm of the creepily intimate lately.
They're up on being the "most successful" White Wolf product outside of nWoD. They have forgotten that Exalted is all about hate. Hating the people who play it, hating the people who don't play it, hating people for how they play it, hating the designers for how they designed it, hating the designers for how they didn't actually design it, hating the designers for how they should have designed it, hating for the sake of hating.
So right now all the emotional intimacy they're talking about seems great and fantastic, but that's only because it hasn't turned into hate.
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Mage Core hooked me from the start, but the supplements made me an addict. The best one I've read was either Keys to the Supernal Tarot or Reign of the Exarchs.
The Seers book is great antagonist stuff too. Abyssal Entities is just frightening.
Turnin' on the SWSE signal - there was some sort of item quality or modifier called "Antique" or something like that, that was meant to signify something that was waaay out of service, but somebody was holding on to it anyway.
Anybody remember what that was an what book it was in?
Wow Dungeon World is so good. I really want to play it, but I'm already DMing D&D, and I feel like I should start any other games in a different setting.
I also browsed Shadowrun 5e. I love the setting, but the rules are so needlessly complex and poorly designed. They read like a parody of complex system-mastery RPGs. Sorry if you love them, I don't mean anything personal about you if you do. I just don't get it. At all. Why do people want such complex rules? You don't need them to have tactically complex battles - there are thousands of wargames with simpler and more elegant rules. Is it just fun learning the way to build a powerful character? Is that the challenge?
Looking at MHRPG, maybe running a game sometime soon. I'm unclear on the contested action rules.
So, attacker/intimidator/aggressor rolls first and picks action score then uses an unused die for their result. Then defender rolls and doesn't care about effect die size. Is that right? Because that seems like a huge advantage to the defender.
For the most part, yeah, the defender doesn't care about the effect die, but (I believe so don't quote me on this) if the defender loses, if he has a higher effect die, he can lower the effect die of the attacker. Also, the defender can turn his roll into a counterattack (again I believe) if he spends a PP to do so.
For the most part, yeah, the defender doesn't care about the effect die, but (I believe so don't quote me on this) if the defender loses, if he has a higher effect die, he can lower the effect die of the attacker. Also, the defender can turn his roll into a counterattack (again I believe) if he spends a PP to do so.
Yeah, both are true. So you have to think which way to use your dice. Also if the attacker's roll is 5 more than the defender's and he hits, he gets to step up the damage. That makes defending quite complex.
In the games I played, fights didn't turn into a stalemate, although unless you're offensively strong vs someone defensively weak, e.g. Cyclops vs Prof X, you need to think about your fights and use assets and complications. Just like in the comics, if you're Spider-Man and you keep punching Rhino, it won't do much.
Remember you have the three kinds of damage too. For example, I can do some mental or emotional stress, and then use that dice, plus some PPs, to punch through someone's physical defences.
It's quite tactically complex for a storygame, so long as you throw decent challenges at the players. I found the default enemies in Breakout etc quite weak.
Also, defending in MHRP is an action, and feels like it, with the possibility of generating PPs or Doom Pool dice. You may well choose to use your distinctions negatively, and risk a hit, to get a PP and power another action, or even a simple counterattack.
I figure I could take a bear.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
edited July 2013
I think the weakness of most of the example enemies in MHRP is akin to the reason that individual 4E monsters, and even Elites, aren't really that bad: Each individual encounter in MHRP isn't supposed to dominate a session by itself unless you really want it to (see: Large-Scale Threats, post-MM3 solos). Add to that the fact that with some obvious exceptions, the villains in comic books are usually outright weaker than the heroes because they've got the story initiative, dastardly plot, and henchmen on their side, and it makes reasonably good sense that the heroes usually have an advantage in terms of raw power.
I think the weakness of most of the example enemies in MHRP is akin to the reason that individual 4E monsters, and even Elites, aren't really that bad: Each individual encounter in MHRP isn't supposed to dominate a session by itself unless you really want it to (see: Large-Scale Threats, post-MM3 solos). Add to that the fact that with some obvious exceptions, the villains in comic books are usually outright weaker than the heroes because they've got the story initiative, dastardly plot, and henchmen on their side, and it makes reasonably good sense that the heroes usually have an advantage in terms of raw power.
I don't think that makes the game more fun, though. Challenging fights are more fun, whether long or short.
Sometimes you want a challenging fight where you mow down hordes of enemies. The MMO City of Heroes did that well, where a small group of enemies was considered equal to your PC. But you still want a challenge I think.
I love MHRP, but the weakness of the general opposition listed, and the general lack of villains in the sourcebooks, is my only real issue with it.
I think the weakness of most of the example enemies in MHRP is akin to the reason that individual 4E monsters, and even Elites, aren't really that bad: Each individual encounter in MHRP isn't supposed to dominate a session by itself unless you really want it to (see: Large-Scale Threats, post-MM3 solos). Add to that the fact that with some obvious exceptions, the villains in comic books are usually outright weaker than the heroes because they've got the story initiative, dastardly plot, and henchmen on their side, and it makes reasonably good sense that the heroes usually have an advantage in terms of raw power.
I don't think that makes the game more fun, though. Challenging fights are more fun, whether long or short.
Sometimes you want a challenging fight where you mow down hordes of enemies. The MMO City of Heroes did that well, where a small group of enemies was considered equal to your PC. But you still want a challenge I think.
I love MHRP, but the weakness of the general opposition listed, and the general lack of villains in the sourcebooks, is my only real issue with it.
City of Heroes wasn't remotely challenging the majority of the time by i12 (which was where most of my time with it started), at least at level 50 or in a capable group.
The point of making the "average fight," relatively easy is that it prevents the game from getting bogged down. You are in theory, particularly in 4E, supposed to be rolling through multiple encounters per session at noticeable but not dire inconvenience. 4E is designed as a game of attrition rather than stand-up hard fights every session; MHRP can do somewhat the same thing due to the Doom Pool mechanic. Nothing stops you rolling a 1 versus The Shocker, and if you didn't manage to get past him quickly, well, Kraven might just hand you your head later because he's got an abundance of extra dice to work with. There's even that 2d12 end-the-scene, heroes-fail option built in.
I sometimes wish I could do more for to challenge my group in a fight. Fights are only hard when they roll poorly, not because of neat tricks I planned. Case in point, the Tombstone fight in my Noir Game. Well, maybe not because they weren't thinking about him being Immune to Physical Attacks until they got tired of rolling ones and then Lucas one shot him.
I have a really cool combat system and no general conflict resolution mechanic to attach it to. I'm tempted to just use a less mathematically challenged version of Risus' clichés with the serial number scrubbed off and call it a day.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
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It's much less gonzo. The basic idea is that werewolves are half-humans that group into packs and instinctively take over a territory, with the goal of policing the spiritual landscape of the territory. It's all very local, personal; instead of "you are trying to save the world" it's, "The werewolves next door are assholes and the spirit realm is leaking into the local high school." The Tribes are basically religions; each is oriented around a Spirit that offers its support in exchange for certain behaviors. The individual stuff is keeping your human and nonhuman sides in harmony.
The world isn't dying or anything. The spirit world is a reflection of the material world; the spirits of nature are not any different than the spirits of material things in their "moral value." A pollution spirit might be dangerous, but so is a murder spirit. Like most of the nWoD, it's very local and personal. The world is bigger than you are; it doesn't need saving. You're just living a life. A violent and savage life where a twisted Silent Hill-style otherworld continually tries to intrude on the world and you're supposed to deal with that.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
If only it had all been wrapped around better dice mechanics. I would love to see oWoD get a complete mechanical overhaul, like break away from the d10 entirely kinda overhaul. Because man, every time I flip through V20, I get so nostalgic...
I don't know how good the WFRP dice system is, but the new Edge of the Empire narrative dice are awesome.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Nah, Apocalypse is too goofy. Forsaken is a great little horror game; it's very claustrophobic and visceral.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
The dice are definitely forcing me to think more about failing forward and player-driven campaigns. Once they've done the first adventure hook they need to be the ones telling the story, I just want to provide the scenery and fun/interesting events.
As long as Shadowrun doesn't distract me.
Or they can be Shadowrunning Sabbat. Either/or.
Albeit, it's probable that the overwhelming depression and inevitability of the loss the Werewolves were going to suffer in Apocalypse was a bit too "Call of Cthulhuish" for me and that's probably why I didn't really warm to it. Because, you know, I already have Call of Cthulhu for my "Overwhelming despair as disaster approaches".
I will say the book for Apocalypse was fucking awesome with the comic book in the front of it and the holes in the hardcover where the claw marks were. I miss books of that construction.
Forsaken is Hunter with Werewolves.
It gives you this idea that it's all about being super-terrifying apex predators
but really, in it's purest essence, being a Werewolf in the nWoD is about everyone and everything hating you
Humans hate you because you are a terrifying monster that triggers primal loathing. Other Werewolves hate you because you are aligned with the Tribes of the Moon and they are Pure/Bale Hounds. Other Werewolves from the same tribe hate you because you they are a rival pack scrabbling desperately for territory. Spirits hate you because you try and police them.
The birds hate you. The bees hate you. The trees hate you. The building you are in hates you. Your neighbours hate you. Sometimes, the Moon flips out and hates you.
The only beings that don't hate you are your pack, and they love you unconditionally. They need you and you need them, more than just practically, but instinctually. There is nothing you won't do for the pack, for the survival of people that are closer than family, closer than friends, closer than lovers.
As I said, it's really cool, and perfect for group RPG play, but it's just poorly explained.
I know that a lot of people don't like emotional intimacy in their roleplaying games
but I love it
the most enjoyable RPGs for me are the ones where my character is snapping under the incredible raw emotional stress of the campaign, when you strip back all that social restraint and the mask of self-control, and get to really release those feelings.
I remember we played Eclipse Phase once, and my character had a total nervous breakdown, sitting in the back of a truck. It was one of my favourite roleplaying moments of all time.
That's all well and good - like, for real, the couple times I've been a game that got there, it was neat - but trying to design it into the game's setting or mechanics skeeves me out a little.
Also I really like beating up imaginary skeletons / lizardmen / whatever.
one of the reasons I love EP so much is that the vast majority of the setting is clearly designed as a way for the guitar wire of your character to be methodically tightened to the point of breaking.
So right now all the emotional intimacy they're talking about seems great and fantastic, but that's only because it hasn't turned into hate.
Ex3.5 by June.
The Seers book is great antagonist stuff too. Abyssal Entities is just frightening.
Anybody remember what that was an what book it was in?
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
They basically make power cells cost more and repairs harder.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I also browsed Shadowrun 5e. I love the setting, but the rules are so needlessly complex and poorly designed. They read like a parody of complex system-mastery RPGs. Sorry if you love them, I don't mean anything personal about you if you do. I just don't get it. At all. Why do people want such complex rules? You don't need them to have tactically complex battles - there are thousands of wargames with simpler and more elegant rules. Is it just fun learning the way to build a powerful character? Is that the challenge?
Looking at MHRPG, maybe running a game sometime soon. I'm unclear on the contested action rules.
So, attacker/intimidator/aggressor rolls first and picks action score then uses an unused die for their result. Then defender rolls and doesn't care about effect die size. Is that right? Because that seems like a huge advantage to the defender.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Yeah, both are true. So you have to think which way to use your dice. Also if the attacker's roll is 5 more than the defender's and he hits, he gets to step up the damage. That makes defending quite complex.
In the games I played, fights didn't turn into a stalemate, although unless you're offensively strong vs someone defensively weak, e.g. Cyclops vs Prof X, you need to think about your fights and use assets and complications. Just like in the comics, if you're Spider-Man and you keep punching Rhino, it won't do much.
Remember you have the three kinds of damage too. For example, I can do some mental or emotional stress, and then use that dice, plus some PPs, to punch through someone's physical defences.
It's quite tactically complex for a storygame, so long as you throw decent challenges at the players. I found the default enemies in Breakout etc quite weak.
I'd like to find some more smaller ones like the npc cast that don't go on for more then an hour or so but it's hard to find decent ones.
I never asked for this!
I don't think that makes the game more fun, though. Challenging fights are more fun, whether long or short.
Sometimes you want a challenging fight where you mow down hordes of enemies. The MMO City of Heroes did that well, where a small group of enemies was considered equal to your PC. But you still want a challenge I think.
I love MHRP, but the weakness of the general opposition listed, and the general lack of villains in the sourcebooks, is my only real issue with it.
I always find balancing combat against the party to be the hardest of things
City of Heroes wasn't remotely challenging the majority of the time by i12 (which was where most of my time with it started), at least at level 50 or in a capable group.
The point of making the "average fight," relatively easy is that it prevents the game from getting bogged down. You are in theory, particularly in 4E, supposed to be rolling through multiple encounters per session at noticeable but not dire inconvenience. 4E is designed as a game of attrition rather than stand-up hard fights every session; MHRP can do somewhat the same thing due to the Doom Pool mechanic. Nothing stops you rolling a 1 versus The Shocker, and if you didn't manage to get past him quickly, well, Kraven might just hand you your head later because he's got an abundance of extra dice to work with. There's even that 2d12 end-the-scene, heroes-fail option built in.
I'd rather have 4 tough fights than 3 easy and one impossible.