All Things League (of Extraordinary Gentlemen) - working back from 2009

Thirith

I've just emerged from reading The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Century: 2009. Let me first say that I'm a huge fan of Alan Moore's work, and while I prefer the first two volumes of the League, I enjoyed both 1910 and 1969. I'm withholding my final verdict on 2009 until I've read it a second time, but my first impression is a big, fat meh. Yes, there are some nice ideas - but Moore created such strong, memorable characters... yet their modern-time versions are so... flat, I guess is the right word. Mina, Orlando, Alan, they've all become exchangeable.

I haven't seen any threads on Moore's League, even though there's a lot there to discuss. Here are just some questions for everyone:

- What did you think of 2009?
- What did you think of Century altogether?
- Did you enjoy The Black Dossier? (Myself, I think it's a great show of craft and imagination, but it doesn't particularly work as a book.)
- How do you think the League comics measure up to Moore's other works?

Anyway, here's hoping that a) a second reading and b) your opinions can help me enjoy 2009 more - or otherwise accept that the best of the League is in the past.

Linespider5

My opinion? Nothing of value has happened after Volume 2.

The Martian Invasion arc was simply replete with amazing character performances and important events. Interestingly, Volume 2 also feature the first signs of the tone that has overrun the later books in increasing volume- namely, that scene with Quartermain fucking Murray in the forest and all the animals showing up.

The original volumes have their own character and a deliberate mood. The later volumes do not have a character and the mood goes all over the place and features a perplexing number of rape scenes, as well as things happening simply because of the justification that it happened in an another book, so it must be ok if it happens in this book, also.

Really disappointed that the series didn't build towards a serious dreamwalk towards the League having to battle the Great Old Ones, as the Sunder Veil story in Volume 1 seemed to indicate as the end game.

Thirith

To my mind, Moore veered to much from his original concept of the series, towards something that in terms of its themes (mainly fiction and how it relates to the world) is more like Promethea. Which is fine, but did he have to fumble characters and plot to this extent in the process? There's a lot about Black Dossier and Century that I appreciate, but I am miffed about what was lost in the process. A few years ago I would've automatically bought any new Moore, but not after Century and especially not after 2009.

Also, I would have expected a more incisive, smarter critique of modern culture from the man...

Antimatter

I've assumed there is no such critique partly because he isn't familiar with modern pop culture and it's difficult to work with for him, near as I can tell.

I've only read up to black dossier and the first volume of century, and I'm not sure I want to catch up.

Thirith

Antimatter wrote: »

I've assumed there is no such critique partly because he isn't familiar with modern pop culture and it's difficult to work with for him, near as I can tell.

Thing is, in 2009 I very much feel that he's trying for such a critique, especially in its main antagonist - and it doesn't particularly work. He doesn't end up saying anything perceptive, interesting or entertaining about modern pop culture.

I like the sheer audacity of his deus ex machina, though.

Out of the three Century episode, I like 1969 best. If you can find it cheap or borrow it from someone, @Antimatter, I think it's worth it, as long as your expectations aren't for another first or second volume.

Mike Danger

I've read the first two volumes, the Black Dossier, and dribs and drabs of the Century stuff. I think it peaked about halfway through the Dossier, unfortunately.

Antimatter

If you say so, sir. I must admit,

I was delighted with the prisoner references in black dossier and heard there weren't any in '69 which makes no sense. granted, I do know the story is written in a way where it wouldn't necessarily make sense to fit any in, bit Moore has been putting in references for his own amusement for years.

Red or Alive

First off, thanks for starting this thread, Thirith. Been meaning to do something similar, but, eh, other things got in the way.

Anyhoo, I've always enjoyed the LoEG series, but never really considered it amongst Moore's best works. If anything, it always seemed to be a fun distraction, his take on the sort of high falutin' fanfiction that used to be associated with Kim Newman (Anno Dracula) and Philip José Farmer (Wold Newton Family). I think it became the centrepiece of his ABC line by accident, due to higher-than-expected sales. Or maybe not. Anyway, regardless of whether its commercial success was a surprise or not, I agree with Linespider5: the series has become a bit garbled since the second volume concluded. Moore has explicitly stated that the original intent for the comic was to present a Victorian Justice League. By the end of the second series, this no longer seems to be the case. Alongside the League's dissolution, the Traveller's Almanac prose back-ups show Moore broadening his vision and attempting to unify almost all popular fiction in one continuity. Again, this suggests to me that Moore did not, at the outset, expect the series to be as commercially successful as it turned out to be.

As it stands now, the series strikes me as an indulgent bit of intellectual exercise that just happens to pay it's author surprisingly well. I'm not criticising it on those terms, though, as I (like many people on this forum, I expect) get a real kick out of world building. And I did enjoy The Black Dossier, once I assessed it on its own terms; it's an RPG sourcebook, without any game mechanics. Moore has mentioned sourcebooks in interviews from the late 80s and contributed to a DC Comics RPG supplement based on Watchmen, so he's definitely familiar with the concept. It's really not a conventional novel in any sense. Nor is it an easy read, either, but still worth the struggle, I think.

Which brings us to Century. I enjoyed the building dread of 1910. I actually thought Century #1 was a return to form for the series, as a continuation of the original LoEG, questionable gender politics aside. The latter two parts are less compelling for pretty much the same reason: the world building has become the point, the whole purpose of the series, to the detriment of the narrative. 1969 was Moore playing with the toys of his childhood and clearly enjoying himself. The man is an admitted old hippy at heart and still seems to have an awful lot of fondness for the era, which he transfers to his principal characters. And yet, he seems to be having too much fun to really build on the promise of 1910. It all ended up feeling a little inconsequential and unnecessary (and, again, another scene of female molestation!).

2009 suffers for similar reasons, the key difference being that Moore hates, hates the modern era. To be fair, given Kevin O'Neill's rate of output, he probably scripted issue 3 back in 2007/8, and contemporaneous work indicates a certain level of grumpiness. His Neonomicon series really indulges his current pursuits/trademark themes to a pretty grotesque degree (kinky sex, rape, magic, all that good stuff) and would have been written about the same time. Admittedly, that was written to get the taxman off his back.

Anyway, anyway, the point: Alan Moore hates the modern era. While he's not completely out of the loop (he's spoken of his love for shows like South Park and The Wire and keeps up with rising young authors like Joe Hill ((and was thrilled when Hill's name turned up in an online Q&A, posing a question)) he shuns modern technology. He's been burned out with the comic book fan community since the late 80s and is unlikely to make any efforts to reestablish communication in an online capacity. The internet is a massive part of the relationship between creator and consumer these days, and he's excused himself from that - and by extension - any immediate communication between his good self and his audience. Of course, that may be the best for his mood, knowing the manners of too many internet commentators, but I do believe that the man runs the risk of consigning himself and his later works to irrelevance due to an unwillingness to engage with a modern audience. On the other hand, maybe this is my sense of entitlement showing through. But, really, Moore seems to be view anything and everything outside of Northampton with increasing distrust, though that's not to knock his work in his local community, which by all accounts has been extremely admirable and worthy.

More immediately relevant, however, is Moore's relationship with Hollywood: multiple sloppy and mangled adaptations (largely of works he does not own the rights to) have seemed to accelerate his dissociation from the mainstream and his larger audience (and killed off several long-standing friendships with fellow comics creators). And this is projected in the key thematic conflict in Century 2009: the fondly remembered 1960s of his childhood and the world in which he lives (but makes less effort to understand) as an older man. I don't love how the last 3 books in the Harry Potter series turned out in the end - though I still have fondness for the first four, more innocent novels - but don't regard the series as particularly more cynical or crass than any other series in the children's literature canon. Really, I honestly think Rowling's sin, in Moore's eyes, is embracing Hollywood wholeheartedly.

Ultimately, Century ends on a bitter, petty note. Bitterness is an understandable but pitiable emotion. And Alan Moore does not deserve to end his wonderful career being pitied by former fans.

Whew. Good to get that out of my system.

sportzboytjw

Black Dossier felt like I was reading weird weird fanfic. It was awful and atrocious and bad. I hated it so much.

Thirith

Black Dossier was often brilliantly crafted pastiche/parody of certain literary styles and genres. I didn't particularly like it, but badly written it definitely ain't. It just doesn't do what most of its readers wanted it to do, and I'm not sure there was all that much of an audience for what it did set out to do.

Thirith

Since I wouldn't want this thread to be just about Century and its (relative) failure: what are your favourite characters, scenes and visuals in the series? Mr Hyde is probably my favourite, and I think the scenes between him and Mina in Vol. 2 are among the best that Moore has written in terms of character writing.

Antimatter

Hyde's interactions with Mina and Griffin were great, and I feel like I enjoyed Nemo.

sportzboytjw

Thirith wrote: »

Black Dossier was often brilliantly crafted pastiche/parody of certain literary styles and genres. I didn't particularly like it, but badly written it definitely ain't. It just doesn't do what most of its readers wanted it to do, and I'm not sure there was all that much of an audience for what it did set out to do.

There was nothing brilliant about BD. Part of it is how much it hoses people who expected something close to the first two books and got him whacking him metaphorical lit-pud for an entire hardback. It was a crappy story and a crappy thing to release in that same series.

wirehead26

I haven't read the BD or the 3 Century books yet. Anyone know when Century will be collected in one volume?

WiseManTobes

My main thought when I think back on LXG, is why can't this one get written!

Linespider5

I think the main problem with the League Books was when Moore, out of some weird conceit or hunger for something impossible to do, decided that all literature could fit into a single narrative.

It worked pretty well when 8 or 9 series were worked into a lattice of concepts. The first couple books brought something interesting an after-effect of bringing the ingredients together.

I kind of like the Black Dossier, but think it would have been much better if Moore actually just made the literal book, and had ABC or whoever shrink wrap it companion-piece with a longer, continuous storyline that involves all the stuff the actual sequential pieces reference: a semi-fascist 1948 England, the post-League MI6 stuff, and the dawn of the British Space Age. Have the comic make references to things in the Dossier so people can back-and-forth it on their own.

Now that I think of it, this might've been what Moore actually wanted to do but had to compromise.

I do have to say that I do not appreciate Moore's raging hard-on for a psychotic, sexually misanthropic James Bond. But I can trace his position on that all the way back to the introduction of the original collected trade for Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, so, it's not like that should be of any surprise to me now.

DouglasDanger

The first two books were amazing, Black Dossier was interesting, Century 1909 was eh, I don't know. I haven't read 1969 or 2009. There are some really neat things going on, and I am a big fan of O'Neill's art.

Moore does have some sort of talent for making utterly despicable beings interesting characters.

Munch

I really enjoyed the first two volumes of LoEG, like most everyone else did. I made it about halfway through Black Dossier before I put it down, and never picked it up again. I struggled through the first book of Century, and found the prose stuff more interesting and rewarding than anything else in the book.

Honestly, I imagine LoEG continues to be a really rewarding read, for the well-read. I liked the first two books, because everyone's read, or is at least aware of, War of the Worlds, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the Invisible Man, etc. I liked the prose stuff in Century, because it touched on characters like Stardust the Super-Wizard, which I'm knowledgeable about, allowing me to get all the little in-jokes and references in the story.

But, when Moore started getting too obscure for me, while also overwhelming the characterization and plot, the books just stopped being interesting. That said, I'd kind of like to sit down with the Jess Nevins-written annotations, and got through the entire series.

Linespider5

The whole thing began feeling a lot less coherent, like the difference between a treasure map and a gigantic, stained glass window that might actually be gaudy when the whole thing's viewed at once.

Mike Danger

I think League became a big seller because it was ideally positioned at the start of the steampunk wave.

As far as great characters/scenes/visuals, Hyde confronting the tripods in 2 has to be #1, with the reveal of Moriarty as M being #2. (I remember being in Borders when the volume 1 compilation had just came out, finding the one copy of the book that wasn't shrinkwrapped, reading up to that point, and then calling my friend to describe everything I had just read.)

Thirith

Thinking about favourite moments, while I'm not a big fan of 2009 at this point, I do love the deus ex machina. There's something deeply unsettling about the character and how she's used. Shame the rest of the book doesn't hold up particularly well.

DouglasDanger

I think the first two volumes were a big deal because pretty much everyone is familiar with most of the books and things they.... deal with? feature? riff on? Everyone is familiar with the Invisible Man, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and the War of the Worlds, even if they somehow haven't read the books. And most people know of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea and Captain Nemo.

When I read Black Dossier, I only really "got" the 1984 and James Bond stuff and the rest of it was alien to me, presumably because I was born in the United States in 1984, rather than England 20 years earlier.

Linespider5

The references would've been fine if they went anywhere. Sadly, Moore's Dossier is more like the sort of Hollywood spectacle piece he claims to despise. And it's done in such a way I almost feel invited to ignorantly mouth off on how it 'should've' been done because it really feels like there should've been a lot of better ways to go and still use most of the same ideas.

sportzboytjw

Mike Danger wrote: »

I think League became a big seller because it was ideally positioned at the start of the steampunk wave.

As far as great characters/scenes/visuals, Hyde confronting the tripods in 2 has to be #1, with the reveal of Moriarty as M being #2. (I remember being in Borders when the volume 1 compilation had just came out, finding the one copy of the book that wasn't shrinkwrapped, reading up to that point, and then calling my friend to describe everything I had just read.)

Nah, it woudl have sold in any era; if he'd just kept telling epic stories with various pop culture/lit characters throughout time, it would be great. Instead, he has to go all crazy (well, he is Alan Moore) and crap on it.

Thirith

Linespider5 wrote: »

Sadly, Moore's Dossier is more like the sort of Hollywood spectacle piece he claims to despise.

In what ways? I would describe Black Dossier more as a quasi-academic exercise in craft - at least if the meat of the book is the pastiches of different literary styles and specific original texts.

Delduwath

I enjoyed the original two books (the first one more than the second, I'll admit) because, as someone brought up earlier, the idea was a bit like a Victorian Justice League. I'm a sucker for alternate takes on established characters/concepts, which is why I love the Ultimate Universe, Elseworlds, What Ifs, temporary costume changes, and so on. The idea of a group of superheroes who existed in the 1800s rather than the 1990s or whatever was very appealing to me. Furthermore, the idea that Dr. Jekyll can meet the Invisible Man can meet Captain Nemo is as intriguing to me as the idea that Green Lantern can meet Flash can meet Superman. They all exist in the same world! Think of the adventures they can have together!

I will admit that I am not even remotely read enough to understand everything that followed the first two LoEG volumes. I don't get all the references - don't even realize there is a reference to get in many cases (like the Dutch dolls, for example) - but for the most part, I feel like the stories hold up without my needing a lit background. What I've found more uncomfortable is the growing emphasis on sex through the series, to the point where it feels like sex is the main theme that these characters are built around (although I will fully allow that maybe I'm too uptight and sexually repressed to be comfortable with this element of the story), and also the almost crushingly depressing direction everything has been moving in pretty much since the Black Dossier. Maybe if the members of the League stopped humping each other long enough to focus on saving the world?

As for Century 2009, specifically, let me dive behind a spoiler.

I felt like 2009 was the least reference-heavy book of the whole set, which may be because:
1) There isn't enough contemporary literature to reference, or
2) Moore thinks there isn't enough contemporary literature worthy or interesting enough to be referenced, or
3) Moore is not familiar enough with contemporary culture because he's disgusted with it

I also think it was one of the most straight-forward and detour-less LoEG narratives so far; a straight jaunt to the incredibly anticlimactic confrontation with the Big Bad. I don't know yet how I feel about this. I'm almost disappointed.

I'm very annoyed with the story basically saying "yeah, culture is shit now". I see enough of this pessimistic, doom-and-gloom nonsense in real life, so seeing the same viewpoint represented in the literature of the times is a little frustrating. (Especially because I completely disagree with it; things are far from perfect, but on average I'm pretty sure that every day is a little bit better than the previous.)

I will say this: I like that the League didn't prevent the apocalypse, but rather that they ushered it in themselves. That's a nice, interesting twist.

I love the idea of all literature existing in the same world. I love crossover stories, where two characters who've been fully defined in their own franchises meet each other, and have to interact. I'm very glad that Moore wrote these stories, even if I personally don't 100% like them. I wish they were a bit more upbeat, and maybe involved a bit more super-science-punching and a bit less descending into decadence, but eh. I can always re-read Planetary if I want to enjoy cross-era, cross-genre, cross-franchise characters interacting.

Thirith

@Delduwath: I largely agree with you. Re: sex: Black Dossier at times felt like deleted scenes from Lost Girls without IMO adding all that much to the story, characters or themes, and Moore's criticism of modern (pop) culture is too thin to feel like much beyond "Get off my lawn, you damn kids!" My main beef here is not so much that I disagree with Moore's opinions; it's more that in the past he's been way more interesting and intelligent about them.

wreade1872

- What did you think of 2009?
Liked it, not loved it but i'll probably like it more when i read it as part of a whole rather than on its own. The references were a bit annoying this time around though, felt more like a gimmick than a necessary part of the story. I guess i'd put it slightly behind 1969 but ahead of 1910.
Also it was nice to actually like Orlando for once, she's always been a bit annoying in the past.

- What did you think of Century altogether?
I'll answer this when i've reread it . Whenever i complete a league comic i go back to the start and reread it all again. Except for Black Dossier which i read twice in a row then went back and read it a third time along with 1 and 2. The double reading i felt was necessary as i got lost among the names made in the little notes so on the second read i stuck to just the comic and note elements and then read the dossier sections comletely separate.

- Did you enjoy The Black Dossier? (Myself, I think it's a great show of craft and imagination, but it doesn't particularly work as a book.)
LOVED it! Second greatest thing i've ever read. Knocked Lord of the Rings down to 3rd. I'm not really a comics person, i like them in theory but i'm constitutionally incapable of collecting anything (making up for it a bit now by buying the Essential Xmen and Xfactor series). Got the first two volumes as presents due to having copies of Dracula and 20,000 leagues on my bookshelf. Thought they were ok but liked the concept more than the implementation. So really i'm approaching this from a literary rather than comics background which probably explains why the Dossier worked better for me then many others. But the Dossier also made me like Vol 1 and 2 a lot more than before aswell, it was actually pretty bizarre even the artwork looked much better after going back to them post Dossier.

- How do you think the League comics measure up to Moore's other works?
I've read V, From Hell, Halo Jones, A Voice from the Fire and Watchmen and i'd put the League above them all from a personal perspective but below Watchmen on the technical level obviously. Didn't think much of V or From Hell but Halo Jones was awesome, pity it didn't run for longer. But hey maybe she'll be in a future League .