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[PATV] Wednesday, July 4, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 20: The Hero’s Journey (Part
Dog
Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
This week, we begin a two-part series on the Hero's Journey as applied to games. Everyone likes LeeLee. You should too! Go read her <a href="http://www.namegamecomic.com" target="_blank">webcomic</a>. Come discuss this topic in the <a href="http://extra-credits.net/episodes/the-heros-journey-part-1/#discuss" target="_blank">forums</a>!
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brb buying Journey.
STEAM
Very interested to see where the next vid takes us.
Then you showed the Eva pictures. Out of all the series you could have picked, you picked that one? The one with the writer who admitted he was going through suicidal manic depression and was purposely trying to screw up and failing horribly? The series that succeed to ruin an entire media, and has become this giant franchise zombie.
So much rage, and probably far from the best example.
I will love to hear part 2 though.
Additionally it is an oft repeated statement that there are no new stories. Its not the story itself that is unique, its the window dressing the writer applies to it. Adhering to forms and structures is a method of self limitation that also allows an author to bloom creatively. The easiest way to write a story is to apply limitations and then let whatever comes flow naturally from those limitations.
Constructing a story step by step does not make a good story, that is true, but a good story usually finds itself naturally adhering to a handful of specific structures. The concept of a unique story is flawed because there are a limited number of universal human experiences, and people have been writing and telling stories for the better part of ten thousand years. Stories don't really come just "from the heart". The stories that resonate are those that are made, on some fundamental level, out of shared human experiences; shared pains and sorrows that when put together express a universal truth.
Ruined an entire media? Oh, I'm sure you'd love anime back then. Everywhere you look - left, right and center - super-robot shows with the exact same young male protagonist that somehow always saved the day and fearlessly piloted the giant robots he found himself in while fighting for his big-breasted girl because that's what otaku back then wanted so why not pander to them? What Eva did was take a bunch of things that were being used to pander to those otaku and did the opposite with them, in the hopes that they could show that one didn't have to rely on a limited set of tropes to make a successful anime, and successful it was. What it did was give anime one of the greatest things a stagnant market like that can receive - diversity. So don't you tell me it "ruined anime". Besides, Shinji specifically was shown for a reason - because he embodies the "refusal of the call" in anime. It was what made him seem more human than the "all-powerful plot device" pilots that ran rampant in nearly everything at the time.
I refuse to talk about this series on the internet in great detail as it is a carnal sin of geekdom to do so I will like to keep this brief. So yes, it did cause a diversity in the media to emerge, which basically became, every robot show afterwards try to copy it, dark days.
It was constantly used as the goto example as an introduction into anime. I don't know how many people suggested this series to friends only for them to turn around after watching it for a few episodes and decide they hated it, and never bothered with any other show again.
Personally, I thought the series was ok... "ran out of budget, no ending, stuck in a big blue ball, congratulations, cross shape explosions, what would god need with giant robots/"Godzilla monsters like things" ", This hilarious song pretty much sums up any problems with it.
but its the ripple effects it had afterwards that I'm talking about.
I suppose his refusal of the call is noted, but seems like like he just wanted to spite his dad then anything else had anyone else asked him, he probably would have said yes. There are far better examples, but they picked that one for the example due to popularity, which is good since they are trying to convey an idea. I still raged.
I think you might be overgeneralizing '90s giant robot anime a bit too much there. While there was, and still is to a great extent, plenty of fanserivce to be found, there was certainly more diversity outside of Evangelion, a series that I do indeed enjoy, than what you're implying (mind you, the much-adored Gundam Wing came out around the same time as Evangelion).
@lockgar
In the same sense, not every giant robot show tried to be like Evangelion after it aired, as you suggested. Besides that point, Evangelion should never be used as the go-to show to get someone interested in anime. For that, I would go with something that has a broader appeal, like Cowboy Bebop. Seriously, everyone loves Cowboy Bebop. Far as your original grievance goes, I suppose they could have used any number of characters as an example of the refusal to the call. My first thought when the topic comes up is typically Amuro Ray, to be perfectly honest.
It is very well known in the anime fandom that NGE is one of the shows that evokes either extreme admiration or intense loathing. As can be seen in previous comments, the minute you included Shinji as an example, you generated inordinate amounts of rage which will probably fuel a large debate over the merits of NGE. I'd like to hope that the sort of people who watch EC can overcome their desire to argue over an off-topic issue, but this is the internet. So, what has essentially happened here is that by including a matter of controversy that is not related to your discussion, you have partially steered what should have been an educated discussion into an age-old debate that has no good ending.
And yes, I realize that I am also contributing to the off-topic discussion, but I feel like this is a good chance for the wonderful people at EC to learn how to avoid a problem I see crop up so often when discussing matters in a public forum.
Internet: YOUR TEARING ME APART EC!!!
... I really need to actually WATCH Eva and find out what all the hubbub's about.
I
notice a small problem,
and make a major decision.
this changes things
to some satisfaction, but
there are consequences
that must be undone
and I must admit the futility of change.
They're all over at the Chanel101 wikia under Dan Harmon, starting from super basic outlines to story implementation and citing specific examples. I really recommend anyone interested in the study or observation of story structure to look into his stuff.
If I had a PS3 I'd get it. But since I don't it's kinda of steep.
Into the subject: It's great to see that there's a "guide" to write stories but I tend to prefer writing something AND THEN going to see how can I apply those rules, not writing with them in mind since it's kind of restrictive. But I can see that even with we doesn't have knowledge of them it tends to follow the same pattern. Psychology is funny.
Here's the article in question just to save you all a few keystrokes:
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/hulk-explains-why-we-should-stop-it-with-the-hero-journey-shit/
This is a somewhat tangential link, but it may have some relevance in the coming video.
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/hulk-presents-the-myth-of-3-act-structure/
Despite being a writer and having a BA in English Studies (and doing quite a bit of post-modern deconstruction for only having that level of degree), I've never actually read Campbell's work. I know of it, of course; I'm a fantasy writer. But I've never actually seen the intricate details.
I especially enjoy that you are pointing it out in all sorts of media. It isn't a universal by a long shot, but it is one of those broad things that you can cram almost anything in to, if you want. And when you get a trilogy involved, or some extremely long plot arc? Oh man.
Can't wait for next week.
Wouldn't a "refusal to the call" moment in Mario be the first time you tried going back in the original SMB and discovered that you couldn't? I mean, given the example they give for Journey, it seems valid enough.
Not quite sure why you feel so compelled to let us know about Hulk's article, since it's brought up in this very same video.
Siiiigh.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Why? Because I didn't stay through the credits. That'll show me. Ah well, the link is there, and it'll save people a few keystrokes.
Also, can anyone tell me how to reply to people properly? Bit of a noob at this.
Really, I consider "deviating from the path" and "refusing the call" to be different things. It works when considering The Journey because the "pushing you back on the path" is thematic but in the case of Mario and the like you aren't ACTUALLY refusing the call - you just want to go backwards, often because you think it will help you go forwards. A better example of player induced "refusal of the call" would be the common trend found in the Elder Scrolls games where player will very often outright avoid the storyline quests because you'd much rather go to that cool looking cave over there and oh look that leads to a mountain which could have some interesting stuff to look at while traversing it and there seems to be a village down there I should probably check it out and oh wow look at all these side quests I still need to do before continuing the main quest and....
So ya, fuck George Lucas. Biggest plagerist ever. And I know John Williams did the music, but plagerists get other plagerists apparently and he's still responsible.
As for the Hero's Journey, I think that's why the Souls games are so great tbh. You do also experience a lot of aspects from the Hero's Journey, but at the same time you don't really experience all of it and it doesn't exactly have the Hero's Journey kinda story. It was refreshing. There were similarities to Hero's Journey so I think people found it relatable, but you're not really a "Hero" or "The One" or anything. Even though Dark Souls calls you "Chosen Undead" it's definitely known that many undead before you had done it. And it's not so much chosen as in "The One" so much as "a chosen person who has the will to do all this." Just fun stuff.
Realistically it's almost impossible to claim that the original Star Wars movies ripped off anybody, mainly because every part of it aside from the main character's first name was changed, not according to Lucas's wishes but according to the studio. It's pretty well known that The Hidden Fortress was a loose basis for the original 13 page manuscript, but 3 drafts after that and you can't find many similarities. If you try to apply the overarching plot to another movie, you're proving the existence of these over-arching plot ideas (Like the "Hero's Journey", not of plagiarism. Plagarism is a close immitation and attempting to disguise another's ideas and concepts as your own, and in movies, music, and art it's not looked down upon like it is in academia.
The mere fact that Lucas attributed much of the original idea to The Hidden Fortress disproves any attempt at plagarism, because he's pretty open with the original story not being his idea. In fact he's extremely open with the fact that the original movies didn't follow his ideas (notice the drastic changes from the original and prequel series).
But seriously though, as a wuxia movie fan who was drawn to Star Wars by it's seemingly wuxia inspired concepts, the original movies had little in common with The Hidden Fortress after the re-writes. And yeah, the Force is very much presented as a semi-Tao-ist concept in the original movie, much more in-line with the type of things you might find in Wuxia (Qi or Neijin, and in fact the entire process of learning "The Force"), Buddhist/Daoist mythology, and some early martial arts movies than in Dune (About the only commonality is the "power of the mind" trope, and even that's a tenuous link at best).
Lucas a plagarist? No.
Lucas a hack? Well, duh!
It doesn't really work with the Elder Scrolls, though. In fact there's not many games that can claim to have a non-scripted "refusal of the call". The reason that is, is that the "Refusal" has to has some impact. The refusal is only poinient, noteworthy, or important because the refusal leads to dire consequences. Those consequences of refusing the call are what leads the hero back onto the path. The Elder Scrolls doesn't have that, and really doesn't provide any meaning to refusing the call, which is what last two games have been called out on. Once you remove the threat of danger then the call becomes unimportant. Sad that I can't think of any games that have a real "refusal", Spiderman actually has a very well known refusal. The death of Peter's uncle, caused by his refusal to stop a robber and misuse of his abilities, is an excellent modern example of the refusal.
And since I got on the point of Wuxia style movies, the movie "Kung-fu Hustle" has a very diversified example of The Hero's Journey.
Steam: pandas_gota_gun