It's been so long since I've watched GSL...maybe I'll finally watch these Code S VODs tomorrow and play a few games with some Seed/MC builds. Gumiho vs Squirtle about to start apparently.
I think that would make creep spread slower than a single tumor.
Yes but I think spreading creep is a little too easy in its current state. Forcing zerg's to do a bit of queen movement and management to spread their creep quickly is a lot more interesting.
And make the queens vulnerable at the same time. It is interesting. Where's our blizzard forum balance spy?
Keamien on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The other option is to make creep recede more quickly.
The way I see it, the "problem" so to speak is that denying creep spread, or removing it, is a LOT more time consuming, risky, and difficult than actually spreading creep to begin with. To balance things out, it either needs to be easier to remove creep, easier to deny it, or harder to spread it.
Not that this is a huge problem, or even necessarily a problem - but you got me thinking and its an interesting topic.
Or queens don't lay tumours; bases do. On cooldown. Either they can place them anywhere on creep OR within range of the base. The latter would mean losing all your creep tumours would be fairly catastrophic for Z so this would only be in the case where Z is actually OP vs T (still not 100% convinced yet).
Ravens are dumb. They are shitty stupid worthless unit. Do you know why every protoss gets an obs to go with their army? Because they are invisible, and cheap as hell.
Saying, "add a raven you silly terrans" just doesn't work.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Also you rarely have to replace observers in a fight as Protoss. You basically always have to replace a raven in a fight because it will always die.
Ravens are dumb. They are shitty stupid worthless unit. Do you know why every protoss gets an obs to go with their army? Because they are invisible, and cheap as hell.
Saying, "add a raven you silly terrans" just doesn't work.
And yet Zerg makes overseers which are far, far worse by every metric except cost. You could make the case that T shouldn't need to slum it and make mobile detection like those other, lesser races but it seems a big design flaw.
Most the of the arguments against burrow-move banelings were from Terrans saying "but, but, but I'd have to get Ravens! ".
I remember various arguments from P about how getting an Obs against Z was an insurmountable obstacle because it would slow down Collossus / slow down Immortal / force them into the Robo tech path / make their army look untidy.
And yet they got over it.
This is basically me playing Devils Advocate for an interesting discussion but it's a wierd assymmetry.
Everytime. Ravens seems to have a higher attack priority than the rest of the terran army.
That's clearly because Blizzard thinks they're the deadliest weapon at T's disposable. Blizzard can't be wrong, therefore Terrans are silly for not making Ravens.
Everytime. Ravens seems to have a higher attack priority than the rest of the terran army.
That's clearly because Blizzard thinks they're the deadliest weapon at T's disposable. Blizzard can't be wrong, therefore Terrans are silly for not making Ravens.
QED.
Should be "disposal" obviously, but I can't edit and that's a Freudian slip
Thanks for covering that raven response for me dudes, I am usually not as polite when someone says just make ravens
MKP plays Line/Suhosin in 30 minutes. I hope he wins, because if he loses, you can almost guarantee a 500 post thread on reddit declaring him washed up
e: did you really just compare overseers to ravens
Thanks for covering that raven response for me dudes, I am usually not as polite when someone says just make ravens
MKP plays Line/Suhosin in 30 minutes. I hope he wins, because if he loses, you can almost guarantee a 500 post thread on reddit declaring him washed up
MKP literally just got back into code S like 4 hours ago
I think the bonus pool system for Starcraft ladder is so interesting.
It is a textbook example of manipulative game design. But it doesn't work! People are still so damn scared of getting their asses caved in on ladder that you have all this press roll on ladder anxiety. Anyone who makes a decision to ladder or not, is likely not putting bonus pool into their consideration. I don't think that is just poor execution either.
Really interesting case, because for damn sure that's not how it goes with time rewards in social games.
Thanks for covering that raven response for me dudes, I am usually not as polite when someone says just make ravens
MKP plays Line/Suhosin in 30 minutes. I hope he wins, because if he loses, you can almost guarantee a 500 post thread on reddit declaring him washed up
MKP literally just got back into code S like 4 hours ago
i think he's doing okay
he's playing a code a match in 30 minutes
and yeah, i don't hold that opinion at all, i think MKP is fine as well; reddit, on the other hand
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I remember various arguments from P about how getting an Obs against Z was an insurmountable obstacle because it would slow down Collossus / slow down Immortal / force them into the Robo tech path / make their army look untidy.
And yet they got over it.
I can't remember seeing a single Protoss say that, ever.
I personally have made the argument that observers being on robo tech is stupid because of how it pigeonholes you into robo, but that's about as far down that path as I've ever seen anyone go.
I feel like this is an argument that happens every few months. The fact is, ravens are objectively worse than the other races' mobile detection. I am not arguing that terran shouldn't have to make mobile detection, its very needed in many cases, but ravens are just plain bad.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
e: did you really just compare overseers to ravens
i am speechless
"Worse in every way except cost" : Dunno how that's an incorrect statement. The cost refers to the investment in support structures, minerals, gas ; whatever. Overseers are so good they were going to be removed in HOTS until, well, I dunno really. They infected Vipers with their crappiness? They're dead space.
The point was that you'd never make Overseers if you could help it. You're FORCED into making Overseers. It sucks, but what can you do. The arguments being used above and in other cases are "Well, X requires me to get Ravens. Therefore X should be removed."
You COULD argue that Ravens are shit and being forced into getting them makes your army worse. That's great; Ravens should be changed. But just saying 'Anything that makes me get Ravens is bad and should be removed" is a crappy design philosophy.
I feel like this is an argument that happens every few months. The fact is, ravens are objectively worse than the other races' mobile detection. I am not arguing that terran shouldn't have to make mobile detection, its very needed in many cases, but ravens are just plain bad.
Then they should be changed. Corrupters are crap; they have very specific uses and you only get them to get Broods or when you're forced into it. But saying 'Corrupters are shit therefore Collossus, Battlecruisers and Voidrays should be removed' is just crazy. I want a more complex game, not a simpler one.
you can just make an overseer when you need it, youve already got like a million overlords just hanging around shitting creep. it's not an inconvenience to make them. easy.
ravens, on the other hand:
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
saying 'Corrupters are shit therefore Collossus, Battlecruisers and Voidrays should be removed' is just crazy. I want a more complex game, not a simpler one.
Colossus should be removed. They're a boring, terribly designed unit that absolutely has no place in any sort of skill-based game.
Are there VODs somewhere of the recent games with Flash? I'd very much like to see him in action with some real practice under his belt
the tlpd has vods
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
And then along with that we can remove all the boring "break glass in case of Colossus" units that the other two races have, Corrupters and Vikings, and put something useful and interesting in their place
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Better modification - multiple creep tumours do speed up creep spread, but creep tumours do not replicate themselves - a queen must lay each one.
Suddenly we have a viable use for overlord creep spewing beyond it just being a gimmick.
Yes but I think spreading creep is a little too easy in its current state. Forcing zerg's to do a bit of queen movement and management to spread their creep quickly is a lot more interesting.
The way I see it, the "problem" so to speak is that denying creep spread, or removing it, is a LOT more time consuming, risky, and difficult than actually spreading creep to begin with. To balance things out, it either needs to be easier to remove creep, easier to deny it, or harder to spread it.
Not that this is a huge problem, or even necessarily a problem - but you got me thinking and its an interesting topic.
the think with creep is its just such a kick in the balls to deny creep
Creep spread seems to be less of a problem for P because they almost always have an Obs with their army.
Saying, "add a raven you silly terrans" just doesn't work.
And yet Zerg makes overseers which are far, far worse by every metric except cost. You could make the case that T shouldn't need to slum it and make mobile detection like those other, lesser races but it seems a big design flaw.
Most the of the arguments against burrow-move banelings were from Terrans saying "but, but, but I'd have to get Ravens!
I remember various arguments from P about how getting an Obs against Z was an insurmountable obstacle because it would slow down Collossus / slow down Immortal / force them into the Robo tech path / make their army look untidy.
And yet they got over it.
This is basically me playing Devils Advocate for an interesting discussion but it's a wierd assymmetry.
That's clearly because Blizzard thinks they're the deadliest weapon at T's disposable. Blizzard can't be wrong, therefore Terrans are silly for not making Ravens.
QED.
Should be "disposal" obviously, but I can't edit and that's a Freudian slip
MKP plays Line/Suhosin in 30 minutes. I hope he wins, because if he loses, you can almost guarantee a 500 post thread on reddit declaring him washed up
e: did you really just compare overseers to ravens
i am speechless
MKP literally just got back into code S like 4 hours ago
i think he's doing okay
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It is a textbook example of manipulative game design. But it doesn't work! People are still so damn scared of getting their asses caved in on ladder that you have all this press roll on ladder anxiety. Anyone who makes a decision to ladder or not, is likely not putting bonus pool into their consideration. I don't think that is just poor execution either.
Really interesting case, because for damn sure that's not how it goes with time rewards in social games.
and yeah, i don't hold that opinion at all, i think MKP is fine as well; reddit, on the other hand
I can't remember seeing a single Protoss say that, ever.
I personally have made the argument that observers being on robo tech is stupid because of how it pigeonholes you into robo, but that's about as far down that path as I've ever seen anyone go.
leprosy, for example.
Oh shit, half your zealot's claws just fell off.
"Worse in every way except cost" : Dunno how that's an incorrect statement. The cost refers to the investment in support structures, minerals, gas ; whatever. Overseers are so good they were going to be removed in HOTS until, well, I dunno really. They infected Vipers with their crappiness? They're dead space.
The point was that you'd never make Overseers if you could help it. You're FORCED into making Overseers. It sucks, but what can you do. The arguments being used above and in other cases are "Well, X requires me to get Ravens. Therefore X should be removed."
You COULD argue that Ravens are shit and being forced into getting them makes your army worse. That's great; Ravens should be changed. But just saying 'Anything that makes me get Ravens is bad and should be removed" is a crappy design philosophy.
Then they should be changed. Corrupters are crap; they have very specific uses and you only get them to get Broods or when you're forced into it. But saying 'Corrupters are shit therefore Collossus, Battlecruisers and Voidrays should be removed' is just crazy. I want a more complex game, not a simpler one.
ravens, on the other hand:
Colossus should be removed. They're a boring, terribly designed unit that absolutely has no place in any sort of skill-based game.
the tlpd has vods