Nobody said that invisible units need to be removed. We were bantering about the insane creep spread of zerg, and how it is a problem.
Do I think I should just get to kill creep tumors for free? No. I was just thinking out loud about the current state of creep tumors, and how slight changes would impact the game.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
the new Starcraft UI look should be coming soon. apparently a launcher screenshot was leaked or something and people saw the patch notes for it
you can just make an overseer when you need it, youve already got like a million overlords just hanging around shitting creep. it's not an inconvenience to make them. easy.
ravens, on the other hand:
But that's the cost; it's massively more than Overseers; there's no argument there. But my point wasn't to compare costs but to make the point that the other 2 races are forced into getting detection when they may not want to. Terran shouldn't be exempt from that.
As a corollary Ravens may need a buff, or made easier to get.
It could be that detection is too important to put on an expensive caster unit (which seems to be why they stopped Overseers being removed in HOTS). In which case the detection should be put on something else.
Or maybe Terrans aren't every supposed to need mobile detection; maybe Scan's are where it's at. But why have detection on Ravens at all if that's the case? It should be removed in that case for consistency.
Basically I want my burrow-move banelings back. And it's all Terran players fault they're gone
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
this IPL outtakes/credit roll is pretty fucking funny,.
Nobody said that invisible units need to be removed. We were bantering about the insane creep spread of zerg, and how it is a problem.
Do I think I should just get to kill creep tumors for free? No. I was just thinking out loud about the current state of creep tumors, and how slight changes would impact the game.
I didn't say that. You're post made me think about why it's more of a problem for T and not P and then ; Mobile detection. But the real question was the first one;
Is creep spread a general problem (and requires a Zerg nerf) or is it only a problem for T. The latter would require a T buff, maybe to Ravens, maybe to Hellions; who knows. Maybe they would need to add an ability that makes Ravens worth getting for Terran players; maybe the auto-defense turret alternates firing nukes and emp?
Seems highly likely they won't touch balance against until HotS.
That would imply it's not too far away. Otherwise I'd think they're going to wait a bit to see if the most recent changes need a reversion or players will adapt.
I still think it's the latter but I'm not 100% convinced.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Is creep spread a general problem (and requires a Zerg nerf) or is it only a problem for T. The latter would require a T buff,
This is a crazy idea, but hear me out.
Queens, right, have the same range as hellions? What if we indirectly buff hellions, by reducing queen range to 3 so that hellions can micro against them and deny creep spread before speedlings are available for sick surrounds.
I think the root of your argument is at fault. Why shouldn't terrans be exempt? The game is not symmetrically balanced for a reason
I considered that a possibility;
"Or maybe Terrans aren't every supposed to need mobile detection; maybe Scan's are where it's at. But why have detection on Ravens at all if that's the case? It should be removed in that case for consistency."
It's a possibility. But having detection on Ravens (and not removing) at least implies that Blizzard consider it necessary in certain situations.
Is creep spread a general problem (and requires a Zerg nerf) or is it only a problem for T. The latter would require a T buff,
This is a crazy idea, but hear me out.
Queens, right, have the same range as hellions? What if we indirectly buff hellions, by reducing queen range to 3 so that hellions can micro against them and deny creep spread before speedlings are available for sick surrounds.
Queens, right, have the same range as hellions? What if we indirectly buff hellions, by reducing queen range to 3 so that hellions can micro against them and deny creep spread before speedlings are available for sick surrounds.
BAM I'M A BALANCE GENIUS
That looks pretty awesome actually.
But have you considered some of the meta-game effects? The Z would have to commit heavily to units to get their 3rd up which would mean an Econ-driven T would get a big lead. And what about mass Hellion run-bys? And if Hellions were that good, they'd be almost no creep spread at all making pretty much all T pressure / all-ins better.
why would detection have to be removed for 'consistency'
damn dhal you fucked that quote tree up real good
oh you fixed it
If there's no intended requirement for detection on Ravens ever they should be removed. If there IS an intended use for detection on Ravens then either T's should make Ravens or the other problems preventing T's going for Ravens (prohibitive cost, vulnerability, whatever) should be fixed.
i dunno. have you ever defended a 6pool by making a new base behind the minerals at your opponent's natural third? cause i think that's the defining feature of MKP.
EDIT: as of ten minutes ago.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Basically I don't like the argument "Ravens are crap, therefore I should never have to make Ravens".
I'd prefer "Ravens are crap, they should be fixed."
Assuming the statement "Ravens are crap." is actually correct. Players didn't make Infestors even after multiple buffs. Players said Infestors were totally ruined after the NP nerf and no one would use them. Plenty of P didn't go for Warp prism harrass even after the buffs (and still don't).
So allow to me take "Ravens are crap, WORST UNIT IN THE GAME." (1) with a pinch of salt ;D
(1) Hyperbole added for comedic effect.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
lol, Wolf
"he doesn't have room in his supply for vikings"
*Legend zooms in on the ~10 vikings sitting right there*
"DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP IM WOOLF"
@itsweb do you use reactors or just build extra raxes?
reactors early on, but usually not later in the game. it depends on the matchup too, like in tvt when i'm playing marine tank and reach 4 bases minerals are more important than gas so as long as i'm retaining medivacs and not having to remake them its better to spend 50 minerals/gas than 150 for the additional marine production
itsweb on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I find that vs Zerg my reactors just get sniped by mutalisks - a barracks takes a lot more time to snipe.
I think I don't get any more than 3 reactors tvz. better to tech lab everything once you're headed to the lategame so you can deal with tech switches to ultras
tanner was wrecking my goddamn face with fast mutas the other day, so recently i've been much more wary and defensive of that possibility when a zerg takes gas early on. fast mutas just aren't something you really see very often any more
As a aspiring game designer (6 weeks until graduation...HYPE!), I find that it is usually best to overpower something than slowly work backwards. Blizzard has a massive installed QA community that can help them find a good range to which units should fall in. They should (fast) expand upon their PTR more.
Sure, this also means that they have a lot of sub-par players who can't fully utilize the strengths of units (I still have a hard time stutter-stepping) so they need to be careful when looking though the results.
In this Raven case, I'd start by dropping the Raven cost from 100/200 to 100/150. Then I'd reduce the cost of the HSM from 125 to 100 energy. That would mean 2 HSM from a fully charged Raven. Too OP? Maybe, but that's kind of the point. Buff, buff, buff, then slowly nerf back.
The Raven has the potential to be just right with a bit more tweaking and is gonna need it come HotS with Zerg getting their Lurker replacement.
MNC Dover on
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Well forcefields are already in the game.
And it's zerglings claws.
And not half, but all.
Do I think I should just get to kill creep tumors for free? No. I was just thinking out loud about the current state of creep tumors, and how slight changes would impact the game.
unsurprisingly there are no balance changes
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355357
But that's the cost; it's massively more than Overseers; there's no argument there. But my point wasn't to compare costs but to make the point that the other 2 races are forced into getting detection when they may not want to. Terran shouldn't be exempt from that.
As a corollary Ravens may need a buff, or made easier to get.
It could be that detection is too important to put on an expensive caster unit (which seems to be why they stopped Overseers being removed in HOTS). In which case the detection should be put on something else.
Or maybe Terrans aren't every supposed to need mobile detection; maybe Scan's are where it's at. But why have detection on Ravens at all if that's the case? It should be removed in that case for consistency.
Basically I want my burrow-move banelings back. And it's all Terran players fault they're gone
Yeah, seems highly likely they won't touch balance against until HotS.
I didn't say that. You're post made me think about why it's more of a problem for T and not P and then ; Mobile detection. But the real question was the first one;
Is creep spread a general problem (and requires a Zerg nerf) or is it only a problem for T. The latter would require a T buff, maybe to Ravens, maybe to Hellions; who knows. Maybe they would need to add an ability that makes Ravens worth getting for Terran players; maybe the auto-defense turret alternates firing nukes and emp?
That would imply it's not too far away. Otherwise I'd think they're going to wait a bit to see if the most recent changes need a reversion or players will adapt.
I still think it's the latter but I'm not 100% convinced.
This is a crazy idea, but hear me out.
Queens, right, have the same range as hellions? What if we indirectly buff hellions, by reducing queen range to 3 so that hellions can micro against them and deny creep spread before speedlings are available for sick surrounds.
BAM I'M A BALANCE GENIUS
I considered that a possibility;
"Or maybe Terrans aren't every supposed to need mobile detection; maybe Scan's are where it's at. But why have detection on Ravens at all if that's the case? It should be removed in that case for consistency."
It's a possibility. But having detection on Ravens (and not removing) at least implies that Blizzard consider it necessary in certain situations.
Whoa.
damn dhal you fucked that quote tree up real good
oh you fixed it
That looks pretty awesome actually.
But have you considered some of the meta-game effects? The Z would have to commit heavily to units to get their 3rd up which would mean an Econ-driven T would get a big lead. And what about mass Hellion run-bys? And if Hellions were that good, they'd be almost no creep spread at all making pretty much all T pressure / all-ins better.
Hmm, maybe it's got some drawbacks.
i'm basically marineking
If there's no intended requirement for detection on Ravens ever they should be removed. If there IS an intended use for detection on Ravens then either T's should make Ravens or the other problems preventing T's going for Ravens (prohibitive cost, vulnerability, whatever) should be fixed.
EDIT: as of ten minutes ago.
I'd prefer "Ravens are crap, they should be fixed."
Assuming the statement "Ravens are crap." is actually correct. Players didn't make Infestors even after multiple buffs. Players said Infestors were totally ruined after the NP nerf and no one would use them. Plenty of P didn't go for Warp prism harrass even after the buffs (and still don't).
So allow to me take "Ravens are crap, WORST UNIT IN THE GAME." (1) with a pinch of salt ;D
(1) Hyperbole added for comedic effect.
"he doesn't have room in his supply for vikings"
*Legend zooms in on the ~10 vikings sitting right there*
"DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP IM WOOLF"
reactors early on, but usually not later in the game. it depends on the matchup too, like in tvt when i'm playing marine tank and reach 4 bases minerals are more important than gas so as long as i'm retaining medivacs and not having to remake them its better to spend 50 minerals/gas than 150 for the additional marine production
Also to remove Colossi means Corruptors and Vikings should be removed too? The Zerg and Terran anti air altogether? What?
I would think they'd come in handy when the Tempest becomes a thing, at least.
tanner was wrecking my goddamn face with fast mutas the other day, so recently i've been much more wary and defensive of that possibility when a zerg takes gas early on. fast mutas just aren't something you really see very often any more
I bet this is an issue for some zerg players.
Lemme know if technical support is required.
As a Protoss, ebay blocks
or as a Terran, <5min thirds by Protoss that can't be punished off a gasless FE.
STOP RIPPING OFF KEEN
Sure, this also means that they have a lot of sub-par players who can't fully utilize the strengths of units (I still have a hard time stutter-stepping) so they need to be careful when looking though the results.
In this Raven case, I'd start by dropping the Raven cost from 100/200 to 100/150. Then I'd reduce the cost of the HSM from 125 to 100 energy. That would mean 2 HSM from a fully charged Raven. Too OP? Maybe, but that's kind of the point. Buff, buff, buff, then slowly nerf back.
The Raven has the potential to be just right with a bit more tweaking and is gonna need it come HotS with Zerg getting their Lurker replacement.
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