They could shrink the gap by keeping trash the same, and lowering Elite / Champion packs even more.
Yes, the particular change they're making (buff trash slightly) is not a gigantic problem.
I'm more concerned with the mentality that buff indicates: They still think that some difficulties need to be increased. Some monster, somewhere, has to be harder since we're making these elite packs easier.
That's a problem.
Because, again, they could just lower elite / champion packs by even more to shrink the gap, while still buffing trash drops.
Yes, they could do that to get the gap closer as well, but it seems there's a baseline difficulty level they're shooting for, and the current white mobs are just too trivial.
I like how J is the only one who thought on a deeper level about what the phrase "increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four" actually means, which is an interesting question indeed, and everyone is just telling him "herp derp why don't you get, you'll be getting 4 times the magical items from white mobs!"
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
All this said, a 10% health buff to trash is really minor and won't really increase the difficulty floor of Inferno noticeably. Not that I think they should do more than that.
I like how J is the only one who thought on a deeper level about what the phrase "increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four" actually means, which is an interesting question indeed, and everyone is just telling him "herp derp why don't you get, you'll be getting 4 times the magical items from white mobs!"
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
Well we know that MF really only affects the quality of the magic items dropped and not the quantity. My guess is that they are just going to crank up the quantity of magic items dropped by normal mobs by 4x. That way you get 4x of any class of treasure you might have gotten before. 4x legendaries, 4x ilvl 63 rares, etc. So it would just in effect be a straight multiplier to your item find rate. I mean, they could implement this in a more squirrely way but I think speculating on an alternative, weird method would is not going to get you very far.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
I like how J is the only one who thought on a deeper level about what the phrase "increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four" actually means, which is an interesting question indeed, and everyone is just telling him "herp derp why don't you get, you'll be getting 4 times the magical items from white mobs!"
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
Well we know that MF really only affects the quality of the magic items dropped and not the quantity. My guess is that they are just going to crank up the quantity of magic items dropped by normal mobs by 4x. That way you get 4x of any class of treasure you might have gotten before. 4x legendaries, 4x ilvl 63 rares, etc. So it would just in effect be a straight multiplier to your item find rate. I mean, they could implement this in a more squirrely way but I think speculating on an alternative, weird method would is not going to get you very far.
What do you mean by "magic items dropped" though? The way I understood MF since the days of yore is that first a base item is generated, which is not inherently magic. The game then does a series of rolls to determine its treasure class (gold->green->yellow->blue->white->grey). Or are you saying the overall number of items dropped will increase by 4?
We know each mob/mob type has an individual base chance to drop $shiny. They're probably just quadrupling that base chance. It's the simplest change, and least risky, both of which make dev and QA teams VERY happy in the pants.
People seem to think that "increase by a factor of four" means "four times as many items will drop". This may be correct, but there is reason to question that interpretation.
1.0.4 Design Preview:
"increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four"
1.0.3 Design Preview:
"We’re currently evaluating repair costs between 4x and 6x their current values."
Usually, when Blizzard means that something will increase to four times its current level, they write it as "4x", as they did in the repair section of the 1.0.3 blog. In the 1.0.4 blog, they did not write, "magical items will drop from trash at 4x their normal rate", which is what persons take them to be saying. Instead, they employed the language of increasing by factors. In the same sense, in the 1.0.3 blog they did not write, "repairs will increase by a factor of four or a factor of six."
That's the source of my consternation. Companies usually strive to maintain the same terminology in order to avoid confusion.
The question is whether "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" mean the same thing.
If they do, then that's fine.
However, given the difference in terminology, we can't simply assume that the two different phrases mean the same thing. The 1.0.3 blog post uses "4x". The 1.0.4 blog post uses "increase by a factor of four".
Well I don't know anything for sure but I do know that they can manipulate whether an item is "magic" or not in a way that's detached from MF: they do it with champions. So there's two stages to the item roll: a bucketizing of the general type (is it normal or magic) and then MF comes into play for how good the magic item is. This would jive with my general experience that MF seems to just replace magic drops with rares, and not give you gobs and gobs of magic items on the side.
Though it's just speculation on my part about how I would make the system.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
I like how J is the only one who thought on a deeper level about what the phrase "increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four" actually means, which is an interesting question indeed, and everyone is just telling him "herp derp why don't you get, you'll be getting 4 times the magical items from white mobs!"
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
Well we know that MF really only affects the quality of the magic items dropped and not the quantity. My guess is that they are just going to crank up the quantity of magic items dropped by normal mobs by 4x. That way you get 4x of any class of treasure you might have gotten before. 4x legendaries, 4x ilvl 63 rares, etc. So it would just in effect be a straight multiplier to your item find rate. I mean, they could implement this in a more squirrely way but I think speculating on an alternative, weird method would is not going to get you very far.
What do you mean by "magic items dropped" though? The way I understood MF since the days of yore is that first a base item is generated, which is not inherently magic. The game then does a series of rolls to determine its treasure class (gold->green->yellow->blue->white->grey). Or are you saying the overall number of items dropped will increase by 4?
1.At the very first is determined the Treasure Class. The Treasure Class is simply a parameter which determines a subgroup of items (list of Treasure Classes from D2 and description of Treasure Classes).
2.The game then makes one (or several) iterations, called "picks". These picks are the parameters that "selects" the choice out of several possibilities. One of the possibilities is "NoDrop" which is dead simple: nothing drops. If the iteration does not select the first item on the list of the Treasure Class then the next one down the list will be consulted, then the next, until an item (or a NoDrop) is selected.
3.Monsters have a multiple number of picks, however, most normal monsters only have a single pick. For monsters with multiple picks the possibility of NoDrop may be overruled by the other picks.
4.Once an item is selected its' properties are determined. This is where things get hairy: Simple items such as potions and books (e.g. Tome of Blacksmithing) are only found in normal quality, however, items such as weapons, rings and amulets have different qualities such as broken, normal, magic, rare, set and legendary. It is at this step that Magic Find is checked!
5.For every item selected an item level is assigned based on a predetermined %table.
6.If the rarity check (of point 4) results in an item with a rarity of set or legendary, the game will check the list of all valid item types (determined by their iLvl) and randomly selects one to drop.
7.Lastly the item affixes are generated (aka the affix values, not the amount of affixes).
That is from the '1.3 Magic find: The mechanic' section of the post I linked.
I like how J is the only one who thought on a deeper level about what the phrase "increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four" actually means, which is an interesting question indeed, and everyone is just telling him "herp derp why don't you get, you'll be getting 4 times the magical items from white mobs!"
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
Well we know that MF really only affects the quality of the magic items dropped and not the quantity. My guess is that they are just going to crank up the quantity of magic items dropped by normal mobs by 4x. That way you get 4x of any class of treasure you might have gotten before. 4x legendaries, 4x ilvl 63 rares, etc. So it would just in effect be a straight multiplier to your item find rate. I mean, they could implement this in a more squirrely way but I think speculating on an alternative, weird method would is not going to get you very far.
What do you mean by "magic items dropped" though? The way I understood MF since the days of yore is that first a base item is generated, which is not inherently magic. The game then does a series of rolls to determine its treasure class (gold->green->yellow->blue->white->grey). Or are you saying the overall number of items dropped will increase by 4?
Lets say that the base rate is something like this (Warning: Fake Numbers):
9990-10000 Gets you a Legendary. (.1% chance)
9920-9989 Gets you a rare. (.7% chance)
9420-9919 Gets you a magic item. (5% chance)
2420-9419 Gets you a white item. (70% chance)
Everything else is grey.
What I assume, they are going to do is they'll increase the roll range of each tier by 4x. So the new chart would be:
Etc. Those values are multiplicatively added to your MF chance. So someone running 300% MF will have a 60% chance to get a blue off a white mob then (using our hypothetical numbers). 8.4% chance of a Rare, etc.
If I had to guess, statistically the range of the rolls is actually much higher (probably hundreds of thousands to millions), for better tweaking.
on the bright side since everything on the rmah is overpriced shit
This is incorrect.
Perfect Star Emerald: 6,300,000 gold.
Perfect Star Emerald: $9.20
At an exchange rate of $.25 per 100, the $9.20 Emerald converts to 3,680,000 Gold. So, gems on the RMAH are actually underpriced.
One can find similar situations with gear. At the above exchange rate, a $10 helm ought to be the same as what one would find for 4M. However, that isn't always the case.
People seem to think that "increase by a factor of four" means "four times as many items will drop". This may be correct, but there is reason to question that interpretation.
1.0.4 Design Preview:
"increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four"
1.0.3 Design Preview:
"We’re currently evaluating repair costs between 4x and 6x their current values."
Usually, when Blizzard means that something will increase to four times its current level, they write it as "4x", as they did in the repair section of the 1.0.3 blog. In the 1.0.4 blog, they did not write, "magical items will drop from trash at 4x their normal rate", which is what persons take them to be saying. Instead, they employed the language of increasing by factors. In the same sense, in the 1.0.3 blog they did not write, "repairs will increase by a factor of four or a factor of six."
That's the source of my consternation. Companies usually strive to maintain the same terminology in order to avoid confusion.
The question is whether "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" mean the same thing.
If they do, then that's fine.
However, given the difference in terminology, we can't simply assume that the two different phrases mean the same thing. The 1.0.3 blog post uses "4x". The 1.0.4 blog post uses "increase by a factor of four".
Thems be different linguistic utterances.
Yes, "multiply by 4", "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" all mean the same thing. There is no special rule that says Blizzard has to stick to the exact same phrasing for the same concept every time. It's an informal explanation of changes, not a technical specification. And even it if was, it would still mean the same thing because that's how languages work.
@Sensational Yeah you were giving _J_ too much credit here.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
People seem to think that "increase by a factor of four" means "four times as many items will drop". This may be correct, but there is reason to question that interpretation.
1.0.4 Design Preview:
"increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four"
1.0.3 Design Preview:
"We’re currently evaluating repair costs between 4x and 6x their current values."
Usually, when Blizzard means that something will increase to four times its current level, they write it as "4x", as they did in the repair section of the 1.0.3 blog. In the 1.0.4 blog, they did not write, "magical items will drop from trash at 4x their normal rate", which is what persons take them to be saying. Instead, they employed the language of increasing by factors. In the same sense, in the 1.0.3 blog they did not write, "repairs will increase by a factor of four or a factor of six."
That's the source of my consternation. Companies usually strive to maintain the same terminology in order to avoid confusion.
The question is whether "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" mean the same thing.
If they do, then that's fine.
However, given the difference in terminology, we can't simply assume that the two different phrases mean the same thing. The 1.0.3 blog post uses "4x". The 1.0.4 blog post uses "increase by a factor of four".
Thems be different linguistic utterances.
Yes, "multiply by 4", "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" all mean the same thing. There is no special rule that says Blizzard has to stick to the exact same phrasing for the same concept every time. It's an informal explanation of changes, not a technical specification. And even it if was, it would still mean the same thing because that's how languages work.
Unless "factor" is a technical term employed in their MF system.
If that was the case, it's really really unlikely they would have slipped one single internal technical term into their very non-specific, non-technical blog post. I can't see a sane way this means anything but "take the current blue/yellow drop chance, times four".
If that was the case, it's really really unlikely they would have slipped one single internal technical term into their very non-specific, non-technical blog post. I can't see a sane way this means anything but "take the current blue/yellow drop chance, times four".
I'm not saying that you guys are, in fact, wrong.
I'm saying that you guys may be wrong, given that it is an inconsistency in their terminology.
If that was the case, it's really really unlikely they would have slipped one single internal technical term into their very non-specific, non-technical blog post. I can't see a sane way this means anything but "take the current blue/yellow drop chance, times four".
I'm not saying that you guys are, in fact, wrong.
I'm saying that you guys may be wrong, given that it is an inconsistency in their terminology.
If it was a patch note, I would agree with you. This is a blog post though, and they're just discussing design philsophy here, not technicals. They're trying to go out of their way to use fancy pants language and make it sound impressive and dramatic, so they reworded "times four" and now we have this confusion. I'm going with "fancy way of saying times four" unless we hear different.
I have not upgraded my Jeweler. Is it true that they can add sockets to items?
Untrue.
damn
The rumor I heard some time ago was that Karyna, the woman you rescue from the caverns of Araneae, was supposed to have been some sort of craftsperson who would have provided socketing, or perhaps enchanting, but that was dropped. Dunno if it was for balance or wasn't finished in time, or they decided to pull the feature for expansion content, or if it was never more than a rumor.
So, in 1.0.4 we’re increasing the health of normal monsters by approximately 5%-10% in Inferno, but also increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four.
He could be talking about white mobs being 4x more likely to drop magic or rare vs white or grey items and not them dropping 4x more total count of magic or rare items. It is ambiguous.
Unless "factor" is a technical term employed in their MF system.
It's an English word. You're looking for definition 4b. It makes perfect sense in the context they were using it.
Look, I just solved the mystery of Why Blizzard Used the Word 'factor'.
It is also a word used in lots of different fields with a lot of different functional definitions. Why are you being a stickler about this? Your vendetta against _J_ is slightly mind boggling.
It just feels like people are wildly overthinking this looking for the hidden agenda/conspiracy/nerf or something. Current drop rate x 4 seems a lot more likely, occam's razor, etc.
What Incidium said would be #2, anything else would be a vastly distant 3rd.
Some wild speculation:
The increase in chance to get a rare from a white mob is directly related to their upcoming changes to magic find. They increase the white mob rare drop rate to make it more attractive to always have your MF gear on. This helps support whatever big MF change they are going to make. My money is on the system where you don't get the full MF effect until you have had the gear on for X time.
Well in a game where "fortunes" are made in the immediate hours of any patch with mechanic changes, can you really blame them for contemplating alternative meanings?
Well in a game where "fortunes" are made in the immediate hours of any patch with mechanic changes, can you really blame them for contemplating alternative meanings?
Speaking of....
This patch looks to be pretty bad for people trying to make money off of patch changes (weapon prices are going to drop, 2h weapons are worthless now) The only change that you can make money off of is Fiery Brimstone, and we have known about the upcoming legendary change for some time. Even then, we don't know if they are going to buff the crafted legendaries, so while FB is going to be more rare, it doesn't matter unless there is a reason to use them.
Maybe there will be an increase in value on class specific items after the class balance changes are posted.
Ratsult2 on
0
Options
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I this thread hasn't change at all since I went off and did other things for a month.
Well in a game where "fortunes" are made in the immediate hours of any patch with mechanic changes, can you really blame them for contemplating alternative meanings?
Speaking of....
This patch looks to be pretty bad for people trying to make money off of patch changes (weapon prices are going to drop, 2h weapons are worthless now) The only change that you can make money off of is Fiery Brimstone, and we have known about the upcoming legendary change for some time. Even then, we don't know if they are going to buff the crafted legendaries, so while FB is going to be more rare, it doesn't matter unless there is a reason to use them.
Maybe there will be an increase in value on class specific items after the class balance changes are posted.
The price of the other inferno essences has also doubled since the patch info was released.
Some wild speculation:
The increase in chance to get a rare from a white mob is directly related to their upcoming changes to magic find. They increase the white mob rare drop rate to make it more attractive to always have your MF gear on. This helps support whatever big MF change they are going to make. My money is on the system where you don't get the full MF effect until you have had the gear on for X time.
Right. Maybe "factor of 4" is a terminological aspect of their new System of Excellence, or whatever the fuck it's called.
Posts
It's exactly what I speculated about a few pages back regarding how drops and MF work.
Someone else would have to release it first before they could clone it.
Well we know that MF really only affects the quality of the magic items dropped and not the quantity. My guess is that they are just going to crank up the quantity of magic items dropped by normal mobs by 4x. That way you get 4x of any class of treasure you might have gotten before. 4x legendaries, 4x ilvl 63 rares, etc. So it would just in effect be a straight multiplier to your item find rate. I mean, they could implement this in a more squirrely way but I think speculating on an alternative, weird method would is not going to get you very far.
What do you mean by "magic items dropped" though? The way I understood MF since the days of yore is that first a base item is generated, which is not inherently magic. The game then does a series of rolls to determine its treasure class (gold->green->yellow->blue->white->grey). Or are you saying the overall number of items dropped will increase by 4?
People seem to think that "increase by a factor of four" means "four times as many items will drop". This may be correct, but there is reason to question that interpretation.
1.0.4 Design Preview:
"increasing the likelihood they drop magic or rare items by a factor of four"
1.0.3 Design Preview:
"We’re currently evaluating repair costs between 4x and 6x their current values."
Usually, when Blizzard means that something will increase to four times its current level, they write it as "4x", as they did in the repair section of the 1.0.3 blog. In the 1.0.4 blog, they did not write, "magical items will drop from trash at 4x their normal rate", which is what persons take them to be saying. Instead, they employed the language of increasing by factors. In the same sense, in the 1.0.3 blog they did not write, "repairs will increase by a factor of four or a factor of six."
That's the source of my consternation. Companies usually strive to maintain the same terminology in order to avoid confusion.
The question is whether "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" mean the same thing.
If they do, then that's fine.
However, given the difference in terminology, we can't simply assume that the two different phrases mean the same thing. The 1.0.3 blog post uses "4x". The 1.0.4 blog post uses "increase by a factor of four".
Thems be different linguistic utterances.
Though it's just speculation on my part about how I would make the system.
Go here: Everything you ever needed to know about Magic Find, except for the info we can't get via inference.
Read that.
To your specific question:
That is from the '1.3 Magic find: The mechanic' section of the post I linked.
Lets say that the base rate is something like this (Warning: Fake Numbers):
9990-10000 Gets you a Legendary. (.1% chance)
9920-9989 Gets you a rare. (.7% chance)
9420-9919 Gets you a magic item. (5% chance)
2420-9419 Gets you a white item. (70% chance)
Everything else is grey.
What I assume, they are going to do is they'll increase the roll range of each tier by 4x. So the new chart would be:
9960 - 10000 (.4% chance) = Legendary
9680 - 9959 (2.8% chance) = Rare
7680 - 9679 (20% chance) = Magic
Etc. Those values are multiplicatively added to your MF chance. So someone running 300% MF will have a 60% chance to get a blue off a white mob then (using our hypothetical numbers). 8.4% chance of a Rare, etc.
If I had to guess, statistically the range of the rolls is actually much higher (probably hundreds of thousands to millions), for better tweaking.
This is incorrect.
Perfect Star Emerald: 6,300,000 gold.
Perfect Star Emerald: $9.20
At an exchange rate of $.25 per 100, the $9.20 Emerald converts to 3,680,000 Gold. So, gems on the RMAH are actually underpriced.
One can find similar situations with gear. At the above exchange rate, a $10 helm ought to be the same as what one would find for 4M. However, that isn't always the case.
Yes, "multiply by 4", "4x" and "increase by a factor of four" all mean the same thing. There is no special rule that says Blizzard has to stick to the exact same phrasing for the same concept every time. It's an informal explanation of changes, not a technical specification. And even it if was, it would still mean the same thing because that's how languages work.
@Sensational Yeah you were giving _J_ too much credit here.
Unless "factor" is a technical term employed in their MF system.
300K base price for shitty 60 legendaries.
Yes to my decision to not sell legendaries / brimstones.
Wonder if we should sell now...
Nintendo ID: Incindium
PSN: IncindiumX
I'm not saying that you guys are, in fact, wrong.
I'm saying that you guys may be wrong, given that it is an inconsistency in their terminology.
Brimstones were at 240K half an hour ago.
Right now they are...270K.
My guess is they'll get to over 300K before the Legendary blog post goes up.
Then they'll change based upon what it says.
If it was a patch note, I would agree with you. This is a blog post though, and they're just discussing design philsophy here, not technicals. They're trying to go out of their way to use fancy pants language and make it sound impressive and dramatic, so they reworded "times four" and now we have this confusion. I'm going with "fancy way of saying times four" unless we hear different.
Switch to the 1d view. Kinda entertaining...if you find lines on charts to be entertaining.
damn
It's an English word. You're looking for definition 4b. It makes perfect sense in the context they were using it.
Look, I just solved the mystery of Why Blizzard Used the Word 'factor'.
The rumor I heard some time ago was that Karyna, the woman you rescue from the caverns of Araneae, was supposed to have been some sort of craftsperson who would have provided socketing, or perhaps enchanting, but that was dropped. Dunno if it was for balance or wasn't finished in time, or they decided to pull the feature for expansion content, or if it was never more than a rumor.
Nintendo ID: Incindium
PSN: IncindiumX
It is also a word used in lots of different fields with a lot of different functional definitions. Why are you being a stickler about this? Your vendetta against _J_ is slightly mind boggling.
What Incidium said would be #2, anything else would be a vastly distant 3rd.
The increase in chance to get a rare from a white mob is directly related to their upcoming changes to magic find. They increase the white mob rare drop rate to make it more attractive to always have your MF gear on. This helps support whatever big MF change they are going to make. My money is on the system where you don't get the full MF effect until you have had the gear on for X time.
Speaking of....
This patch looks to be pretty bad for people trying to make money off of patch changes (weapon prices are going to drop, 2h weapons are worthless now) The only change that you can make money off of is Fiery Brimstone, and we have known about the upcoming legendary change for some time. Even then, we don't know if they are going to buff the crafted legendaries, so while FB is going to be more rare, it doesn't matter unless there is a reason to use them.
Maybe there will be an increase in value on class specific items after the class balance changes are posted.
The price of the other inferno essences has also doubled since the patch info was released.
Right. Maybe "factor of 4" is a terminological aspect of their new System of Excellence, or whatever the fuck it's called.
Edit: "Levels of Excellence"
To be fair, the game hasn't changed, either.