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[Industry Thread] Read the OP, or you'll see more red than 38 Studios.

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  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    I like how that ModNation Racers game outsold Wipeout and almost every other "system seller". Wasn't that game supposed to be absolutely horrible and almost offensive in how stripped down it was?

  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    I wonder if the DD sales on Vita are a pretty consistent percentage of retail sales across the board or if they vary drastically from game to game. For example, something like Lumines makes a lot of sense to want to have on your system's memory permanently whereas something like Uncharted makes more sense to buy a physical copy so that you can sell it when you finish the campaign.

  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Gaf says 70/30 average split in the US, 80/20 in Japan. Which seems reasonable.

    Basically if Sony was selling a fuck ton of DD copies of Vita games I'm sure we would hear about it non-stop.

    I'd like to see the goofy memory card sales figures, how many people just have a 4Gb card and therefore skip the DD stuff due to lack of space I wonder?

  • ZiggymonZiggymon Registered User regular
    I wonder if the DD sales on Vita are a pretty consistent percentage of retail sales across the board or if they vary drastically from game to game. For example, something like Lumines makes a lot of sense to want to have on your system's memory permanently whereas something like Uncharted makes more sense to buy a physical copy so that you can sell it when you finish the campaign.

    It will depend on the price of the DD copy as well. I know that Hot Shots Golf/Everybody's golf Vita had a huge price drop to £7.99 a few weeks back which will have boosted sales. Same with Modnation. What would have been a good idea for Sony to do with its non AAA first party titles would have been to release them as digital only for the first month or so then release the physical copies later at a budget price.

  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    I think the argument that DRM only harms paying customers neglects an important premise; the majority of paying customers don't know how to crack games, don't want to risk their computers with torrents, don't know how to use torrents, or can't be bothered to pirate.

    Perhaps that isn't the case, but I'd like to think so.

    What I'm trying to get at though, is I just love the kids, or people, but mostly kids (again with the presumptions!) who think that *flails arms in a tantrum* that it's just not fair that they are putting DRM in games!

    Considering that the only people who are affected when Starforce nukes your DVD drive, SecuROM screws with drivers, Ubisoft's authentication servers are down for days, and the many examples of disc-based DRM that just outright refuse to work for one reason or another are people who bought the game and are attempting to play it legitimately, I'd say it's pretty fair to suggest that they're the only people who are actually affected by DRM. If a regular person has a problem with a game's DRM not letting them play and they either don't know about or don't want to use a crack or a cracked pirated copy, then they've only got one option left to them: don't play the game and attempt to get your money back, and good luck with that one.

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Axen wrote: »
    Y'know I've long ago given up trying to understand Nintendo. They consistently do things that I think look crazy/stupid and they end up with more than enough money to carve Shigeru Miyamoto's face on the side of the moon. So I don't even know what's real anymore. Nowadays I just roll with it.

    "What's that? Nintendo's next console will be powered entirely by energies from the Nega-zone? Huh how 'bout that, well I wonder what Will Wright is up to these days."
    Nintendo is a company that experiments and, by the nature of experimentation, experiences many failures. The eReader thing for the GBA, the Virtual Boy, the heart sensor thing that probably isn't going to see the light of day, and honestly motion control itself hasn't really caught on with developers like dual screens and touch control did.

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  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    Gaf says 70/30 average split in the US, 80/20 in Japan. Which seems reasonable.

    Basically if Sony was selling a fuck ton of DD copies of Vita games I'm sure we would hear about it non-stop.

    I'd like to see the goofy memory card sales figures, how many people just have a 4Gb card and therefore skip the DD stuff due to lack of space I wonder?

    70-30 split between retail and digital would be a pretty big success on the digital front compared to how it does elsewhere.

  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    Y'know I've long ago given up trying to understand Nintendo. They consistently do things that I think look crazy/stupid and they end up with more than enough money to carve Shigeru Miyamoto's face on the side of the moon. So I don't even know what's real anymore. Nowadays I just roll with it.

    "What's that? Nintendo's next console will be powered entirely by energies from the Nega-zone? Huh how 'bout that, well I wonder what Will Wright is up to these days."
    Nintendo is a company that experiments and, by the nature of experimentation, experiences many failures. The eReader thing for the GBA, the Virtual Boy, the heart sensor thing that probably isn't going to see the light of day, and honestly motion control itself hasn't really caught on with developers like dual screens and touch control did.

    For a company that many like to peg as a company that always plays it safe, they are probably one of the more risk taking companies out there, and it's because they do things so differently. They can either sink or swim depending on how a new idea is accepted or not. Take the products that Raz mentioned, or like the Wii...that was a huge gamble for them...as was the DS, because they were so different. To be honest I love when Nintendo gets crazy like that...it's when they do some of their best stuff.

    It's also why Nintendo will forever and always be doooooooooooooooomed.

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Bioware Austin, aka the TOR team, going through another round of layoffs today. Also the EP has recently quit the company.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    So they're probably going to go Free-to-Play at some point. I wonder if it'll be before the year is out.

  • CenoCeno pizza time Registered User regular
    I do not understand why companies continue to think they're going to make WoW money eight years after WoW's launch. Like I don't understand what will actually make them stop. Studio closures and massive layoffs don't seem to do it. The track record of pretty much every other mmo in existence doesn't seem to do it. Does Bobby Kotick have to take off Ricotillo's head with a battle axe? It just seems crazy to me.

    They could have just made KOTOR 3 and it would have been a sure fire success. But the hojillion gold coins it would've made is less than the three hojillion gold coins it COULD make, and so...

    Just so disappointing.

  • ultimakayultimakay Registered User regular
    Ceno wrote: »
    I do not understand why companies continue to think they're going to make WoW money eight years after WoW's launch. Like I don't understand what will actually make them stop. Studio closures and massive layoffs don't seem to do it. The track record of pretty much every other mmo in existence doesn't seem to do it. Does Bobby Kotick have to take off Ricotillo's head with a battle axe? It just seems crazy to me.

    They could have just made KOTOR 3 and it would have been a sure fire success. But the hojillion gold coins it would've made is less than the three hojillion gold coins it COULD make, and so...

    Just so disappointing.

    In a lot of cases they are thinking that they can make WoW money 3 years after WoW launches, but it ends up taking them 5 years to get the game out.

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    The big thing that will probably happen in the next year or two is WoW going F2P from 1-60. That will bring in/back a ton of people.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    Unless you given people access to the full leveling experience in a F2P game, going F2P isn't going to bring in anyone longterm.

    "Play to level 60, wherein you'll need to purchase four expansions for the next 30 levels"

    If FTP is what attracted them back the MMO, cutting them off four expansions before end-game content isn't going to do much other than populate low level zones for awhile.

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Actually the buy the expansion content with in game currency or from the real money store worked out quite well for Lord of the Rings Online and I could see the same thing working great for WoW.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Right, I remember hearing story after story saying that going F2P brought in a lot more people and revenue.

    Not sure if WoW is to the point that going (fully) F2P would benefit them more than subscription fees, though. WoW is a weird case.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    Actually the buy the expansion content with in game currency or from the real money store worked out quite well for Lord of the Rings Online and I could see the same thing working great for WoW.
    Can you earn in-game currency... er.. in the game? As in without putting any actual money into it? Then I'd still consider the expansions free-to-play.

    Plus we're talking about bringing people back into WoW: not revitializing a floundering product.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Unless you given people access to the full leveling experience in a F2P game, going F2P isn't going to bring in anyone longterm.

    "Play to level 60, wherein you'll need to purchase four expansions for the next 30 levels"

    If FTP is what attracted them back the MMO, cutting them off four expansions before end-game content isn't going to do much other than populate low level zones for awhile.

    "Free to play till level X" is an example of what only the old foggies in here will remember: it's called a demo (pronounced demō)

    They used to run free across the slow, barren intertubes or that CD that came with every computer gaming magazine\


    WoW already uses the model, although I believe it's only till lvl 20.

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    CDs? whippersnapper, back in the day, demos used floppy discs, uphill both ways

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  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    I have no idea how MMOs work but how is going "Free To Play" until level 60 going to increase revenue? When a game goes F2P does that mean you're doing micro-transactions for everything or is just an attempt to get more users in to sell more advertising in-game?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    I have no idea how MMOs work but how is going "Free To Play" until level 60 going to increase revenue? When a game goes F2P does that mean you're doing micro-transactions for everything or is just an attempt to get more users in to sell more advertising in-game?

    "FtP till level X" lets people try your game for free, get hooked, get attached and then you go "You can have more, but it'll cost you $Y".

    The first hit is free basically.

  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    But isn't the reason they go "F2P" is because no one is enjoying that first hit enough to keep paying? So it's like a self-defeating thing on some level I would think.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    It's more like people would rather buy a nickel bag here and there over having to buy a 1 pound bag all at once.

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  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    edited July 2012
    What baffles me is that there are enough users out there that actually decide to keep playing. Maybe I'm a born and raised cheapass, but if WoW let me play to 60, once I got to 60 I'd probably say "Yeah I've had enough of this." and move onto some other game.

    It's the same reason I don't understand how TF2 makes money...are there really that many users out there that decide to spend money on in-game items that don't do a darn thing?

    The recent release of the "balloonicorn"...which is a little balloon of a unicorn that floats above your character...which can only be seen by people wearing specific goggles....is the most baffling There are people out there that spend actual real money on that kind of thing. I just, wow.

    Edit: Not only real money but $17.50. WAT.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    But isn't the reason they go "F2P" is because no one is enjoying that first hit enough to keep paying? So it's like a self-defeating thing on some level I would think.

    No. Games go FTP because they need the money and a box price + subscription discourages people from trying, buying and staying with your product. So you go all in on micro-transactions.

    There's multiple MMO models out there:

    1) Box Price + Subscription: This is WoW. You buy the game, you pay every month.

    2) Box Price + No Subscription: This is like Guild Wars (1 or 2) or Diablo 3 or the like. You buy the game, you play forever for free. You support yourself through box sales and sometimes micro-transactions.

    3) Free Game + No Subscription: This is what people call "Free to Play". Your business model is entirely supported by microtransactions.


    MMOs tend to go from 1) to 3) because they are failing to making enough money under the WoW model. Mostly because they are not retaining subscribers. And having people playing your game is the most important thing for an MMO. By miles. People playing encourages other people to play and empty worlds encourage them to leave. There's always a snowball effect because MMOs are social games, even if you never talk to anyone ever in game.

    So you make everything free to encourage people to jump into the game and try it out. This keeps your playerbase high enough that everyone doesn't leave. And while they are there, they pay into your in-game-store to fund your company.


    "Free to Play till Level X" is just a demo for games that run the 1) business model.

  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    A lot of sub games that went F2P did so because people felt the games didn't have enough content to stay subbed for or even sub in the first place for, as there's a lot of dropoff after the first free month is up.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    What baffles me is that there are enough users out there that actually decide to keep playing. Maybe I'm a born and raised cheapass, but if WoW let me play to 60, once I got to 60 I'd probably say "Yeah I've had enough of this." and move onto some other game.

    It's the same reason I don't understand how TF2 makes money...are there really that many users out there that decide to spend money on in-game items that don't do a darn thing?

    The recent release of the "balloonicorn"...which is a little balloon of a unicorn that floats above your character...which can only be seen by people wearing specific goggles....is the most baffling There are people out there that spend actual real money on that kind of thing. I just, wow.

    Edit: Not only real money but $17.50. WAT.

    Why would you have "had enough" though?

    Your character wouldn't be complete, there'd still be more content to see and all that shit.

    Now you might say "I don't care about any of that enough to pay for it", but that's not everyone. The whole point of a demo is to hook you enough that you want to pay to see the whole product. They all work that way.

    Many people played the first like 1/4 of Duke Nukem 3D and said "I've had enough". But many many people liked what they played and wanted the whole game.

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Free to play as a money making strategy wouldn't exist if it didn't actually result in more money over the long term. They'd simply stay with subscription until it died or they pulled out of the slump. The reason they try not to do it from the start is because of the stigma associated with it. I've seen mmo's lose subscribers over incredibly petty issues that blow up into huge deals. Think of mob style groupthink of the worst kind: it has ended model 1 mmos out there. FTP lets new fresh people try for themselves instead of not wanting to because of groupthink.

    FTP = failure is ignorance of how cut throat this industry really is. You don't get pitied if you are going down. The higher ups will simply end you.

    I really would not want to work in mmo development.

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  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Is playing til level 60 in an MMO a long time, a short time, or average? Basically are we talking something like 4-5 hours to 60 or more like 6 months? I don't know the scale here so if its the latter I could see how a lot of people would think that's enough. Unless there is some killer payoff later on that is must-play.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Free to play as a money making strategy wouldn't exist if it didn't actually result in more money over the long term. They'd simply stay with subscription until it died or they pulled out of the slump. The reason they try not to do it from the start is because of the stigma associated with it.

    FTP = failure is ignorance of how cut throat this industry really is. You don't get pitied if you are going down. The higher ups will simply end you.

    FTP only needs to make more money then a failing MMO for your reasoning to apply. Which is true.

    The reason everyone goes the WoW route is because WoW makes so much more money then the FTP MMOs.

    Subscription makes more money. But only so long as you can maintain a good number of subscribers. If you can't, then you do FTP instead.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    Free to play as a money making strategy wouldn't exist if it didn't actually result in more money over the long term. They'd simply stay with subscription until it died or they pulled out of the slump. The reason they try not to do it from the start is because of the stigma associated with it.

    FTP = failure is ignorance of how cut throat this industry really is. You don't get pitied if you are going down. The higher ups will simply end you.

    FTP only needs to make more money then a failing MMO for your reasoning to apply. Which is true.

    Good point. There isn't enough data to expand further because that's all it's really been used for until now. You've clarified how I think about this.
    The reason everyone goes the WoW route is because WoW makes so much more money then the FTP MMOs.

    Subscription makes more money. But only so long as you can maintain a good number of subscribers. If you can't, then you do FTP instead.

    For example, I have reservations about extending your point this far.
    Has anyone ever actually launched a full FTP on the same level as these major games? If so, what was their quality and how well did they do?
    Is there actually any situation where a game as big as Wow actually goes FTP? I've heard multiple mmo developers talk as if FTP makes more money, period.

    It would seem to me that the stigma of FTP and the uncertainty of not having done it before on such a large scale could be putting investors off, which puts publishers off and curtails funding for starting them. This could be a likely alternative explanation for why it is only done until they get so low: because it has been established that it can do it in this controlled environment.

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    Is playing til level 60 in an MMO a long time, a short time, or average? Basically are we talking something like 4-5 hours to 60 or more like 6 months? I don't know the scale here so if its the latter I could see how a lot of people would think that's enough. Unless there is some killer payoff later on that is must-play.

    It very much depends on the game. In WoW's case, it used to take a few weeks of regular play but they have since smoothed and flattened the curve such that you can pretty easily get a character up to 60 in a few days of play. Of course, at this point you've got another 25 levels to go (which take much longer than 1-60 did, but still not a ton of time if you aren't burned out on the content).

    In comparison, I believe WoW is currently offering 1-20 in their trial mode, which is equivalent to maybe 3-4 hours of gameplay... perhaps 6-8 for a totally new player.

    Basically though, WoW has such a development and polish advantage that any time a serious competitor crops up they are able to make a small change to their gameplay mechanics or business model that they won't see a long-term loss in players due to the competition. They're a bit down over the last year or so due to what appears to be some general fatigue from long-term players, I think, and I don't think there's a whole lot they can do to get those players back, besides promotions like the Annual Pass.

  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    Is there actually any situation where a game as big as Wow actually goes FTP?

    No, because there are no games as big as WoW.

    There have been some big MMORPGs like Lord of the Rings Online that have gone FTP and it seems to have helped them.

  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    In WoW, playing to 60 for the first time would take a good amount of time, especially if you're taking the time to read quest text and complete zones' questlines before moving on to the next. The reason why I don't think they'd ever unlock up to 60 for free is because of how many restrictions they have on starter accounts and why they're there. Basically there's such a huge criminal contingent that would jump on and abuse the shit out of free accounts that if they did expand to 60 they'd either continue with restrictions and ruin the experience or remove restrictions and ruin everyone else's experience

  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Is there actually any situation where a game as big as Wow actually goes FTP?

    No, because there are no games as big as WoW.

    There have been some big MMORPGs like Lord of the Rings Online that have gone FTP and it seems to have helped them.

    I didn't actually mean Wow itself there, I meant the AAA hype train big launch style game.

    But that's a good point. There are no games as big as wow. It is not possible to talk about Wow making more or less money on FTP until they actually do it. They're the only example, an outlier by a huge margin, and the scale is so huge it's ludicrous to assume you understand what would be best for them.

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  • pirateluigipirateluigi Arr, it be me. Registered User regular
    For me, the Up To 20 was enough to get me hooked enough to subscribe. And being a totally new player, it took me about 2 weeks to hit that level.

    WoW is such an interesting case because there really is no historical precedence here. No other MMO is as large as WoW and no other game has the seen the success that it has. It's like trying to compare other handheld games to Pokemon. You can't do it because they break the model.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    It may very well be that FTP would work just fine for every mmo that isn't Wow. We don't really know yet. We just know when it does work specifically.

    If Wow does do this 1-60 FTP thing and it works for them...

    ...guess what's going to happen for the next five years?

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Opty wrote: »
    In WoW, playing to 60 for the first time would take a good amount of time, especially if you're taking the time to read quest text and complete zones' questlines before moving on to the next. The reason why I don't think they'd ever unlock up to 60 for free is because of how many restrictions they have on starter accounts and why they're there. Basically there's such a huge criminal contingent that would jump on and abuse the shit out of free accounts that if they did expand to 60 they'd either continue with restrictions and ruin the experience or remove restrictions and ruin everyone else's experience

    That's true. The current starter account restrictions are huge*, and it'd probably limit their opportunities to convert people from free to paid if they maintained those restrictions for as lengthy of a stretch as 1-60.

    *Restrictions on Starter Edition Accounts -- with the three biggest restrictions (imo) bolded
    A level cap of 20
    A maximum of 10 gold
    Trade skills are capped at 100 ranks
    Unable to trade via the Auction House, mailbox, or player-to-player
    In-game access to public chat channels unavailable; players are limited to communicating using only say, party, or whisper
    Characters will be unable to create or join guilds
    Characters are not able to send whispers to other characters unless they have been added to the characters' friends' lists or have received a whisper from a character first
    Characters will not be able to invite other players into a party

    Characters will be unable to disable experience gains
    Voice chat is disabled on Starter Edition accounts
    Realms experiencing login queues will prioritize players who have full, paid accounts
    Starter Edition accounts are not eligible for character transfers
    RealID features are disabled on all Starter Edition Accounts

    It'd be a big hurdle for Blizzard to clear, business-wise, especially if they still wanted to make sure that the paid users are still relatively free from spammers and other exploitative use of free accounts.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Some reactions to the Ouya from some indie developers, if you're interested.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/174225/Developers_cautiously_optimistic_about_the_Ouyas_ambitious_promise.php

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  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Remember some of that stuff Pachter said about Activision putting the squeeze on Nintendo...as we figured none of it was based on any so called "facts."
    “I am putting two and two together to conclude that Activision put pressure on them. I do not know this either first-hand or third-hand; nobody told me. I am merely deducing it from what we know, and it’s an educated guess.” - Michael Pachter

    After all, you can’t really play blockbuster games like the upcoming Call of Duty: Black Ops II with the Wii U’s tablet controller.

    http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/17/pachter-on-the-case-for-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii-on-the-wii-u/

    Gotta love that last comment. O_o

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