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[EVE] A friend is just a spy that hasn't betrayed you yet.

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Posts

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Lochiel wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I mean the idea of "PVP Alliance = Poor" "Industrial Alliance = Rich" is fine, and something to be followed...

    It's obselete. Back in 2004, maybe people just had one decently skilled main. Now most of the "PvP" guys have multiple ISK making alts in hi-sec. We never really had any moongold to speak of, so we mostly pay for our stuff by our own efforts. INIT. is definitely is stuffed to the gills with people who make unfeasible amounts of stuff in hi-sec, and they're all highly skilled money grubbers too: if there's more ISK to be made by bringing those alts into the alliance and moving them to 0.0, they'll do it in a heartbeat.

    Actually what they will probably do is use jump clones to have those alts operate in both secs as the winds of profit dictate, but eh.

    This is the problem. Or challenge. Or whatever word you want to use. This is the most interesting aspect.

    Because of JF logistics; alts can be placed wherever production is maximized. Including, theoretically, opposing alliances. So of course there are calls to destroy all of the gameplay in HiSec. This is why I understand calls to nerf JF's. Or at least lock them out of HiSec. Because HiSec has many valid gameplay options, and destroying them for the sake of buffing Null seems irresponsible.

    But I'm digressing; I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't make any changes.

    Luckily, no one is advocating destroying anything in hi-sec. It's just that matters have come to a head, and the situation is starkly revealed as being appallingly unbalanced: hi-sec gets incredible amounts of high quality facilities essentially for free: it's extremely difficult for incredibly expensive player built, vulnerable structures to compete with that.

    JFs aren't the problem. They've exposed the problem. Trying to "solve" the problem by excluding them from hi-sec is basically like saying we can solve Africa's problems by stopping anyone going there, so no one hears about them any more and they're not exposed to the reality of how much better off we are.

    The best solution is that hi-sec stations start charging 'realistic' fees for their facilities. As I said, the fees are there but they're so low that they're effectively zero: it costs ca. 2000 ISK to build a 130,000,000 ISK battleship. That's so low most industrialists don't even bother to include it in their calculations; prices fluctuate daily by hundreds of times that amount. Station fees need to increase enough to reflect the TPC subsidies hi-sec producers get. I'd guess that the battleship I mentioned should cost between 5-7M ISK to produce to even things out, but I'll ask Mynnna to run the numbers a little more precisely.

    Since the supply of trit has been increased by the high-end ore rebalance, the fall in mineral prices should approximately equal this increase, leaving the ships costing about the same to the end purchaser. No hisec playstyles need to be destroyed.

    Additional benefit: EVE gains a valuable ISK sink. God knows we need some new ones to replace the ones we've lost.

    SCREECH OF THE FARG
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2013
    V1m wrote: »
    Goonswarm is honestly only marginally PVP focused. Your fleet commanders may be slick, but the typical goon approach to fleet combat is a combination of brute force and drowning the enemy in your blood. Not many can stand up against the sheer weight of metal the goons can throw into a subcap fleet fight over and over and over again.

    Sounds like something the French knights used to say about English Longbowmen.

    Don't get me wrong: The goons are VERY effective in fleet fights. The reason is that they are deathly allergic to supercaps and avoid them like the plague, and in subcap fights they can lose three fleets and just keep coming back until they attrition the opposition right off the field.

    Edit: Also, the only way to attack the goons on the morale front is to deny them fleet fights. The single best way to energize the goon war machine is to stand up to them. They are kinda weird.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
    Durinia
  • Rawkking GoodguyRawkking Goodguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    As much as we like to play up the (admittedly very important) factors of morale and goon mentality that is crucial in sov war, our fleet comps have been hard-countered, longbows at hastings style or whatnot. Leading to some hilarious kneejerk doctrine changes (remember when we were supposed to all train for arty lokis?* :rotate: ), before finding other doctrines that worked. I look forward to seeing what other comps alliances throw at us next.

    *RAZOR didn't get the memo, if recent battle reports are to be believed

    Rawkking Goodguy on
  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Lochiel wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I mean the idea of "PVP Alliance = Poor" "Industrial Alliance = Rich" is fine, and something to be followed...

    It's obselete. Back in 2004, maybe people just had one decently skilled main. Now most of the "PvP" guys have multiple ISK making alts in hi-sec. We never really had any moongold to speak of, so we mostly pay for our stuff by our own efforts. INIT. is definitely is stuffed to the gills with people who make unfeasible amounts of stuff in hi-sec, and they're all highly skilled money grubbers too: if there's more ISK to be made by bringing those alts into the alliance and moving them to 0.0, they'll do it in a heartbeat.

    Actually what they will probably do is use jump clones to have those alts operate in both secs as the winds of profit dictate, but eh.

    This is the problem. Or challenge. Or whatever word you want to use. This is the most interesting aspect.

    Because of JF logistics; alts can be placed wherever production is maximized. Including, theoretically, opposing alliances. So of course there are calls to destroy all of the gameplay in HiSec. This is why I understand calls to nerf JF's. Or at least lock them out of HiSec. Because HiSec has many valid gameplay options, and destroying them for the sake of buffing Null seems irresponsible.

    But I'm digressing; I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't make any changes.

    Luckily, no one is advocating destroying anything in hi-sec. It's just that matters have come to a head, and the situation is starkly revealed as being appallingly unbalanced: hi-sec gets incredible amounts of high quality facilities essentially for free: it's extremely difficult for incredibly expensive player built, vulnerable structures to compete with that.

    JFs aren't the problem. They've exposed the problem. Trying to "solve" the problem by excluding them from hi-sec is basically like saying we can solve Africa's problems by stopping anyone going there, so no one hears about them any more and they're not exposed to the reality of how much better off we are.

    The best solution is that hi-sec stations start charging 'realistic' fees for their facilities. As I said, the fees are there but they're so low that they're effectively zero: it costs ca. 2000 ISK to build a 130,000,000 ISK battleship. That's so low most industrialists don't even bother to include it in their calculations; prices fluctuate daily by hundreds of times that amount. Station fees need to increase enough to reflect the TPC subsidies hi-sec producers get. I'd guess that the battleship I mentioned should cost between 5-7M ISK to produce to even things out, but I'll ask Mynnna to run the numbers a little more precisely.

    Since the supply of trit has been increased by the high-end ore rebalance, the fall in mineral prices should approximately equal this increase, leaving the ships costing about the same to the end purchaser. No hisec playstyles need to be destroyed.

    Additional benefit: EVE gains a valuable ISK sink. God knows we need some new ones to replace the ones we've lost.
    It also costs 2000 ISK to build 90 000 ISKs worth of Antimatter Charge S, a fairly popular component in the My First Industral Production Kit...

    Best way to fix that is probably to restructure what assembly lines can build, have cheap ammo-lines with very limited construction options - which would also avoid the problem of requiring new industrialist to front sums of money that might be out of their reach for their first constructions.

    Or you'd need a much more complex system for figuring out the assembly line fees than time-spent-installed. But a flat out increase in the actual fees is probably not the best idea.

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Calixtus wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Lochiel wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I mean the idea of "PVP Alliance = Poor" "Industrial Alliance = Rich" is fine, and something to be followed...

    It's obselete. Back in 2004, maybe people just had one decently skilled main. Now most of the "PvP" guys have multiple ISK making alts in hi-sec. We never really had any moongold to speak of, so we mostly pay for our stuff by our own efforts. INIT. is definitely is stuffed to the gills with people who make unfeasible amounts of stuff in hi-sec, and they're all highly skilled money grubbers too: if there's more ISK to be made by bringing those alts into the alliance and moving them to 0.0, they'll do it in a heartbeat.

    Actually what they will probably do is use jump clones to have those alts operate in both secs as the winds of profit dictate, but eh.

    This is the problem. Or challenge. Or whatever word you want to use. This is the most interesting aspect.

    Because of JF logistics; alts can be placed wherever production is maximized. Including, theoretically, opposing alliances. So of course there are calls to destroy all of the gameplay in HiSec. This is why I understand calls to nerf JF's. Or at least lock them out of HiSec. Because HiSec has many valid gameplay options, and destroying them for the sake of buffing Null seems irresponsible.

    But I'm digressing; I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't make any changes.

    Luckily, no one is advocating destroying anything in hi-sec. It's just that matters have come to a head, and the situation is starkly revealed as being appallingly unbalanced: hi-sec gets incredible amounts of high quality facilities essentially for free: it's extremely difficult for incredibly expensive player built, vulnerable structures to compete with that.

    JFs aren't the problem. They've exposed the problem. Trying to "solve" the problem by excluding them from hi-sec is basically like saying we can solve Africa's problems by stopping anyone going there, so no one hears about them any more and they're not exposed to the reality of how much better off we are.

    The best solution is that hi-sec stations start charging 'realistic' fees for their facilities. As I said, the fees are there but they're so low that they're effectively zero: it costs ca. 2000 ISK to build a 130,000,000 ISK battleship. That's so low most industrialists don't even bother to include it in their calculations; prices fluctuate daily by hundreds of times that amount. Station fees need to increase enough to reflect the TPC subsidies hi-sec producers get. I'd guess that the battleship I mentioned should cost between 5-7M ISK to produce to even things out, but I'll ask Mynnna to run the numbers a little more precisely.

    Since the supply of trit has been increased by the high-end ore rebalance, the fall in mineral prices should approximately equal this increase, leaving the ships costing about the same to the end purchaser. No hisec playstyles need to be destroyed.

    Additional benefit: EVE gains a valuable ISK sink. God knows we need some new ones to replace the ones we've lost.
    It also costs 2000 ISK to build 90 000 ISKs worth of Antimatter Charge S, a fairly popular component in the My First Industral Production Kit...

    Best way to fix that is probably to restructure what assembly lines can build, have cheap ammo-lines with very limited construction options - which would also avoid the problem of requiring new industrialist to front sums of money that might be out of their reach for their first constructions.

    Or you'd need a much more complex system for figuring out the assembly line fees than time-spent-installed. But a flat out increase in the actual fees is probably not the best idea.


    Yep, there's a whole bunch of fiddling around like that which needs doing. Another idea is to limit the maximum length of the production job that can be installed, with variation by sec level (higher sec level = short max build). Stops pro manufacturers clogging up the lines with 100-unit Rokh builds, allows newbies to build their own ammo for level 2 missions in 1.0 systems or whatever.

    V1m on
    Tef
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    Calixtus wrote: »
    Additional benefit: EVE gains a valuable ISK sink. God knows we need some new ones to replace the ones we've lost.
    It also costs 2000 ISK to build 90 000 ISKs worth of Antimatter Charge S, a fairly popular component in the My First Industral Production Kit...

    Best way to fix that is probably to restructure what assembly lines can build, have cheap ammo-lines with very limited construction options - which would also avoid the problem of requiring new industrialist to front sums of money that might be out of their reach for their first constructions.

    Or you'd need a much more complex system for figuring out the assembly line fees than time-spent-installed. But a flat out increase in the actual fees is probably not the best idea.[/quote]

    I think the best way would be to drive people further and further out of 1.0 space to do industry, with fees -- and time -- being added to get around this. Yes, you can build that Battleship or T3 Cruiser in Jita, but expect it to take much longer and cost a lot more, due to Concord safety regulations. Don't like that? Head to 0.6 sec space, where the fees and delay are still there, but more manageable. Still not happy? 0.5 is only a few more jumps out...

    The problem is though, that fix, or really any fix, would require nerfing highsec, and that's not something CCP is allowed to do anymore.

  • Comrade1809Comrade1809 Registered User regular
    I'm curious, why isn't CCP not allowed to change highsec?

    EVE: TrueAnger

    “The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians.”
    ― H.L. Mencken

    “This Snow Crash thing--is it a virus, a drug, or a religion?”
    Juanita shrugs. “What's the difference?”
    ― Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Actually, there are 0.5s pretty close to Jita. You don't really have to go all that far.

    Heck, there's lo-sec within 4 jumps...

  • NEO|PhyteNEO|Phyte They follow the stars, bound together. Strands in a braid till the end.Registered User regular
    I'm curious, why isn't CCP not allowed to change highsec?
    Presumably from all the money they get from hisec players. If they go nerfing hisec, that angers their cash cow.

    It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
    Warframe/Steam: NFyt
  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I'm curious, why isn't CCP not allowed to change highsec?

    This is a misconception caused by people's inability to see other play styles as valid. NullSec views it's play style as opposed to HiSec, and thus HiSec is full of invalid play styles. CCP's unwillingness to make drastic and radical changes to this obviously broken portion of the game are simply due to the fact that it cares about money more than EVE. EVE is dying. Here, have some kool-aid.

    BTW, The IceBelt changes are a nerf to HiSec*. Retribution increased the number of internet pixel explosions in HiSec. The increase in NPC corp tax wasn't that long ago, but long enough that everyone has forgotten it. As well as the increase in the Market taxes. I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting. These nerfs, however, do not boost NullSec. Nor are they huge and sweeping, so most people ignore them.

    Edit: * By nerf I mean; it will change how some people play EVE in HiSec.

    Lochiel on
    dporowskiSCREECH OF THE FARG
  • DrainDrain [E] Tabletop Manager SeattleRegistered User regular
    I think the only way many nullsec players would be happy was if highsec was full of boiling hot magma and everyone who lived there burned.

    One simply can't make everyone happy.

    N9pjfAk.png
    "I don't know why people ever, ever try to stop nerds from doing things. It's really the most incredible waste of time." - Tycho
  • RichardRichard Registered User regular
    A bit late but I wanted to say thanks to people on the forum and in game that tried to help me get into EVE, showering me with both monies and good advice. As the ungrateful bastard I am I went on three vacations and haven't been able to get into the game again after that. I ended up spending a lot more time reading guides, setting up the UI and managing training queues than playing the game and maybe that was my mistake. But again, thanks to everyone in game and especially @Lochiel. As space pirates go you are a friendly bunch.

  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    You ever want to give it another try, just let me know :D I'm currently in a "maintenance mode", I don't log in very often and when I do it's just to gain isk.

    It is easy to get overwhelmed with the research; I think it's my biggest pitfall. Eventually you just need to undock, target someone, and shoot them until life gets simpler.

  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    Bonus points if they are blue.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
    mr_mich
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    Lochiel wrote: »
    I'm curious, why isn't CCP not allowed to change highsec?

    This is a misconception caused by people's inability to see other play styles as valid.

    Why no, I don't consider running 20+ bot accounts at the same time in an ice or random roid fields 23x7 like what "The Wis" does a "valid play style," thank you for asking. :)

    Unfortunately, CCP seems to like it well enough, since they keep making it harder and harder for the playerbase to deal with them, so... :ccp:

    As for the Ice Field being a nerf, yeah, you're quite right that it's being mostly ignored... because the vast, VAST majority of people mining ice aren't actually people, they're software packages. The owners of said bot accounts aren't always the most engaged players in the community.

    I expect the outrage to ramp up more and more the closer we get to Odyssey's launch, perhaps really getting crazy if the ice fields are as "bad" (read: unexploitable) as I hope they are.

  • Rawkking GoodguyRawkking Goodguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Drain wrote: »
    I think the only way many nullsec players would be happy was if highsec was full of boiling hot magma and everyone who lived there burned.

    One simply can't make everyone happy.

    Not really, they just have managed to convince everyone they think that with the way they go about complaining and their grasp on reality.

    Change that to "a few", and eh, probably.

    Rawkking Goodguy on
  • JoschuaESQJoschuaESQ Registered User regular
    I'm glad to see merchi is around still -

    i was involved when that jihad guy (cartoon? maybe not) broke up the alliance and we went north(ish) but after um the guy that sang songs and shit did about the same thing just with less impact in delve.

    What are you guys up to nowadays, and what is a good place to read up on current political shifts, fires of heaven used to be a good spot, but that forum died altogether.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    The first catastrophe was caused by a greatly revered fat guy who was physically indistinguishable from any other goon.

    I was on a long break when Karttoon orchestrated the second catastrophe.

    MSL59.jpg
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Richard wrote: »
    A bit late but I wanted to say thanks to people on the forum and in game that tried to help me get into EVE, showering me with both monies and good advice. As the ungrateful bastard I am I went on three vacations and haven't been able to get into the game again after that. I ended up spending a lot more time reading guides, setting up the UI and managing training queues than playing the game and maybe that was my mistake. But again, thanks to everyone in game and especially @Lochiel. As space pirates go you are a friendly bunch.

    Awww c'mon, you've done the hard part. Don't quit now just when you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

    Also: When the Expansion hits (June 4th), the map is going to light up.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    I guess what I'm saying is:

    Summer is coming

    LochielDurinia
  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    KiTA wrote: »
    Lochiel wrote: »
    I'm curious, why isn't CCP not allowed to change highsec?

    This is a misconception caused by people's inability to see other play styles as valid.

    Why no, I don't consider running 20+ bot accounts at the same time in an ice or random roid fields 23x7 like what "The Wis" does a "valid play style," thank you for asking. :)

    Unfortunately, CCP seems to like it well enough, since they keep making it harder and harder for the playerbase to deal with them, so... :ccp:

    Because everyone who lives in HiSec is a bot? Or because HiSec has bots, so everyone else is just collateral damage in our jihad against bots? Either line of logic is silly.

    You should have more faith in the Security Team. As an aside, according to the Security Presentation at FanFest, a majority of the bots they've banned are ratting bots and in major NullSec alliances. I'm sure they'll come out with a DevBlog that says the same thing soon enough.

  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    Nothing good has ever come from trusting CCP.

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
    KiTASokpuppet
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    I like how the problem is still "Those damn bots!"

    And not: "That shitty combat system!" People bot not because it's easy, but because the act of ratting is mind numbing.

    Lochiel
  • Rawkking GoodguyRawkking Goodguy Registered User regular
    edited May 2013


    8->

    E: Gets interesting at 5:17

    Edit edit: Alternatively, read this.

    Rawkking Goodguy on
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    Hahahahahahahahaha

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Anyone currently playing up to a briefing on this for context?

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    Anyone currently playing up to a briefing on this for context?

    I might be missing some of the specifics, but... TEST split off from CFC (Clusterfuck Coalition, basically Goonswarm + TEST + friends) to do their own thing, the HBC (TEST + Pandemic Legion). Some of TEST's leadership went insane at this point, deciding they were going to take out the CFC -- supposedly this was due to his wife making him quit EVE and him wanting to have one last great war before he was forced to quit. Saner heads prevailed, that particular war was averted, we all were reminded how much we miss Vile Rat, etc etc.

    As fallout from this, the HBC quickly turned into BoB 3.0 due to them blueing anyone who happened to hate Goons with promises of a foreverwar with the CFC, which TEST has now abandoned since HBC was taken over by an ex-BOB fuckwit who tried to dictate how TEST would run their forums / jabber / community / etc under threat of TEST's leadership being replaced ... somehow... if they refused to agree to the HBC leader's commands. Or, to quote the article: "Sort dragon issuing ultimatums and threats to the primary coalition member on behalf of the HBC is like the president of France issuing ultimatum to the US on behalf of NATO, and if the US doesn't comply, he'll order an invasion of the East Coast."

    Anyway, TEST pretty much immediately made plans to leave upon Sort Dragon trying to pull a BOB/IT, which happened today. Sort Dragon proved he was classy by trying to poach people and corps before he lost TEST chat access, to boot.

    I'm not certain, but I think we've re-blued TEST in the CFC. With TEST out of HBC well, HBC is failscading and the CFC is eyeing the remnants up for a long, long overdue skullfucking. Or, to quote Mittani via Facebook:

    "So yeah, a thing happened in space politics today. Just got out of a lengthy Illum meeting which was dominated by giggling and bloodlust. The HBC essentially no longer exists, we have no real treaty obligations with anyone anymore besides OTEC members, and uh, hey! Shit's looking beautiful~

    Arm yourselves, the whole galactic southwest and southeast just opened up to be pooped in, and I have no idea /where/ we're going to poop, but by god we've got to take a dump."



  • EllthiterenEllthiteren Registered User regular
    We have not given TEST positive standings. TEST are also still blue with Tribe and Raiden, and together those three alliances are a huge chunk of the HBC, so it isn't as massive a reset as it might seem. Still pretty fantastic in terms of chaos in the south and lots of people to shoot!

  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The Mitani does have a way with words, doesn't he?

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • TefTef Registered User regular
    FUCK YES DELVE THUNDERDOME

    help a fellow forumer meet their mental health care needs because USA healthcare sucks!

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better

    bit.ly/2XQM1ke
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    So lighting up the map now even before the supposed lighting up the map in June happens? ;p

  • PapillonPapillon Registered User regular
    Does this mean we're killing Raiden again?

    I might have to resub...

  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    So, I'm kinda surprised, but there are some pretty good stories in the True Stories website. One pirate accidentally kills several capitals. RnK creates a fake POS to bait a fight. Birth of Jita.

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Who are Tribe?

    MSL59.jpg
  • FiskebentFiskebent DenmarkRegistered User regular
    KiTA wrote: »
    As fallout from this, the HBC quickly turned into BoB 3.0
    I'm confused. I thought we (the CFC) were BoB 3.0?!?

    steam_sig.png
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    We vowed to destroy ourselves?

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    We vowed to destroy ourselves?

    To be fair, we've destroyed Goonswarm before, and we'll probably do it again sometime.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    How many times has it been now? Twice?

  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    BoB was defined by their willingness to go on the offensive; not for blueing everyone in the game. There are no BoBs in the game atm.

    V1m
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    That's what defined BoB, eh?

    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
This discussion has been closed.