The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Daniel Tosh and the use of Rape in Humour
Forar
#432Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
#432Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
A few days ago Daniel Tosh responded to a woman who heckled him (regarding jokes he was making about rape) by making a comment about how odd it would be if she were gang raped, or if she'd been gang raped. Accounts of what he said exactly vary, and eye witness testimony is unreliable in the best of circumstances, but the woman he spoke to was offended, and the outcry online to those displeased with what he supposedly said has led to him making an apology.
While opinions differ as to how best one responds to heckling, general consensus thus far has been that it is inappropriate to heckle people at comedy shows, and that his response was lazy and generally unfunny. It has been postulated that it is impossible to go 'too far' (within legal guidelines) while within the confines of a comedy club, a place where one should expect to come across crass or even offensive humour, especially when certain comedians are involved, and Tosh's career hasn't shown him to shy away from potentially touchy subjects.
Other comedians (Louis C.K., George Carlin, etc) have stated that they feel no subject is out of bounds, though certain ones are more difficult to work with, or require greater care, skill or finesse to deal with effectively.
While nobody has challenged Tosh's right to say whatever he likes, a movement is underway to restrict the venues in which he can work, causing some to raise questions about whether this could be considered an attempt to censor him.
Some caveats to keep things civil; please treat one another with respect. If you feel clarification is needed, ask for it. If someone is being a giant goose, report them and leave it be, don't feed into a 5 page back and forth. "Rape threads" are notoriously prone to drawing fire in the form of infractions and lockings in D&D, so if this is a topic important enough to dedicate literally 15 pages worth of discussion under a tangentially related thread, let's see if we can't channel that to its own thread in a constructive fashion.
I suspect my feelings on the matter have been made quite clear in the other thread, but I attempted to craft an OP that was as neutral as possible. If you feel I missed or misrepresented something, please let me know.
And because it's uncouth to post a thread without giving some thoughts on the matter; from what I've read I do believe the woman in question should have simply left. Heckling a comedian is poor form no matter the circumstances. That said, from whatever variation of the account is true, Tosh's response also comes across as lazy and unbecoming a comedian of his caliber. It touches upon women's rights on a fairly raw nerve; the fact that rape or the threat of rape has been used against women as a weapon longer than there has been civilization, and whether it was unintentional or otherwise, that's how his statements (in either version) strike me as going too far. Surely a comedian of his skill and experience could've come up with something better than 'maybe she was/should be gang raped'? I suppose evidence exists that the answer to that question is 'nope', and thus, here we are.
Wikipedia wrote:On July 10, 2012, a blog titled Cookies for Breakfast published an account by an unnamed woman in which Tosh made a series of jokes about rape at the Laugh Factory. Allegedly, after the woman called out "Actually, rape jokes are never funny!", Tosh responded "wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by like, 5 guys right now?". Later that day Tosh claimed the blog post was inaccurate and that he was misquoted, but apologized on Twitter for what he had said. The owner of the comedy club, who was present during Tosh's set, stated that the blog's account of the incident was inaccurate, and that Tosh had rather speculated the woman had "been raped by like, five guys". The event received a degree of media coverage, with anti-sexual assault groups arguing that his actions normalize sexual violence, [21] and comedians Louis C.K., Dane Cook, Stevie Ryan, and Patton Oswalt defending his right to speak uncensored.
While opinions differ as to how best one responds to heckling, general consensus thus far has been that it is inappropriate to heckle people at comedy shows, and that his response was lazy and generally unfunny. It has been postulated that it is impossible to go 'too far' (within legal guidelines) while within the confines of a comedy club, a place where one should expect to come across crass or even offensive humour, especially when certain comedians are involved, and Tosh's career hasn't shown him to shy away from potentially touchy subjects.
Other comedians (Louis C.K., George Carlin, etc) have stated that they feel no subject is out of bounds, though certain ones are more difficult to work with, or require greater care, skill or finesse to deal with effectively.
While nobody has challenged Tosh's right to say whatever he likes, a movement is underway to restrict the venues in which he can work, causing some to raise questions about whether this could be considered an attempt to censor him.
Some caveats to keep things civil; please treat one another with respect. If you feel clarification is needed, ask for it. If someone is being a giant goose, report them and leave it be, don't feed into a 5 page back and forth. "Rape threads" are notoriously prone to drawing fire in the form of infractions and lockings in D&D, so if this is a topic important enough to dedicate literally 15 pages worth of discussion under a tangentially related thread, let's see if we can't channel that to its own thread in a constructive fashion.
I suspect my feelings on the matter have been made quite clear in the other thread, but I attempted to craft an OP that was as neutral as possible. If you feel I missed or misrepresented something, please let me know.
And because it's uncouth to post a thread without giving some thoughts on the matter; from what I've read I do believe the woman in question should have simply left. Heckling a comedian is poor form no matter the circumstances. That said, from whatever variation of the account is true, Tosh's response also comes across as lazy and unbecoming a comedian of his caliber. It touches upon women's rights on a fairly raw nerve; the fact that rape or the threat of rape has been used against women as a weapon longer than there has been civilization, and whether it was unintentional or otherwise, that's how his statements (in either version) strike me as going too far. Surely a comedian of his skill and experience could've come up with something better than 'maybe she was/should be gang raped'? I suppose evidence exists that the answer to that question is 'nope', and thus, here we are.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Forar on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Just to be clear, this isn't saying heckling is okay. Just saying, again, someone saying comment x is not them infringing on your right. If they hog tie you, or cut out your tongue, or some shit like that, yeah, THEN they're actively infringing on your freedom of speech. :P
Apologies if anyone feels I've misrepresented them here. After a dozen pages my eyes did begin to glaze over, but the notion of censorship did come up a few times, and felt that was worth clarifying.
As was noted in the other thread, US citizens are granted the right to speak their minds, not the right to a forum by which they might reach hundreds or millions of people. My lack of a show on Fox isn't censorship, nor am I entitled to one.
I believe the source of the cencorship feelings is the campaign to get Tosh's show on Comedy Central canceled as a result of the incident.
--LeVar Burton
But as was stated, Tosh handled it poorly. There's a time and place for joke material, or any behavior in life. Not out of law or religious creed or whatever, just general consideration for others. If Tosh was asked to perform at an event regarding women's rights (please don't comment about how this would never happen and read the hypothetical in full) he probably wouldn't make jokes that would offend the general audience. It's easier to guess what material would offend, and even before taking the job stipulations would be in place about things to avoid (which happens when you work as a stand-up comic, believe it or not). The key point everyone needs to keep in mind is that stand-up comics aren't out to hurt people, they're out to make people laugh. But if he's performing at a club anywhere that has no special interest attached to it, then there's no way to measure consideration for the audience, it becomes a crapshoot - now the effort of preventing offense is on the audience, to know who the performer is and where he may or may not go. I'm sure someone is going to make a victim blaming response, but being offended is not being a victim.
Now he made an apology, and it's up to the offended person to accept it or not and... That's it. I guess we could question his sincerity about it? There's no way to prove it so all we're going to get there is people stating which answer they think is correct. The situation is over.
I doubt that's a movement that has any actual muscle behind it (and if it somehow does, what the fuck). He works on a non-network channel, which means he doesn't have to have mass-family-friendly appeal or isn't held to FCC standards or any of that shit. As far as "change the channel" goes, this is the easiest way to do it. Punishing him by taking away his career though speaks more of some people wanting draconian punishment, rather than representing any feminist movement or anything like that.
Actually there's two important points here.
1) Freedom of speech being protection from GOVERNMENT-DRIVEN-CONSEQUENCES is what it's all about. But in the way of being pleased or displeased with your governement. You can say a representative of yours is shit at the job and not be punished for it. But you also cannot make threats of violence against that person (because now you're talking about actual crime vs. protecting your opinion). You have the freedom of speech to call someone a 'fa****', and the freedom of speech law doesn't protect you from getting punched in the face (battery law punishes the assaulter, potentially, unless you were harassing like a motherfuck, but that's another thread if people REALLY want to pick on my example).
2) The forum is an excellent example of freedom of speech applying to voicing your thoughts on government without consequence. This is a private institution where speech is regulated CONSTANTLY. The internet is not a democracy. Practically speaking. The great edict (hence the 'goose' comments above), not speaking about warez, that sorta shit...
Funny stuff. Or at least I laughed, so I dunno. Over the top crassness, in the "crosses the line twice" sense. Like the one bit where he said he would rape the Baby Gap model. And then ended it by saying "Yeah, get offended over an implausible premise!".
This does beg the clearly obvious question: If you're the type of person who is going to get offended by this kind of humor... the fuck are you seeing Daniel Tosh for?!
I also agree with the notion that you shouldn't heckle. You don't like the material? Stand up, walk out, ask for your money back. Otherwise shut your yap. You're not the only one in the room. I'm not suggesting that you're not outright forbidden to, or that you don't have the "right" to be offended and such. But just because you have the "right" to do something, it doesn't mean that you necessarily should do it either. It's rude, and you're rude for doing it. Would you shout out loud in a movie theater if it sucked? Or better yet, would you do it during a live play?
Oh well, it's not like this is the first time this has ever happened. In any form of media. When faced with the choice between removing one's self from the content, and removing the content from everybody, people always seem to choose the far more difficult method. It's too hard to pick up the remote and hit the channel button, I'm going to organize a mass protest to remove this show from the airwaves!
Basically, is the harm of heckling this comedian outweighed by the good that the discussion will create? I'm not really sure either way, especially since Tosh handled this SO BADLY that it's far outpaced the original heckling issue.
It's the wrong venue, you're not going to create discussion in a comedy club; you're just an asshole for interrupting everyone's show, no matter how offended you are.
The problem being, no one went there to get lectured about rape. That's not what they paid money for. She was still free to say it, but there should be no confusion as to why she was shut down so immediately and harshly. It has nothing to do with women's rights and everything to do with that not being the appropriate forum.
For a comparison, think of a movie theatre. What would the response be to a disruptive person who felt they needed to counterbalance what the movie was saying by espousing their own view of morality?
EDIT: What should also be mentioned is that he did not seek her out on the subject of rape. She was shut down with rape because that was the subject. It would have been different had they been talking about something else and his response is "get raped", but I can't see how it's surprising that she was shut down that way considering the subject matter.
That sounds like civil disobedience, for which the chief rule is that you don't get to bitch and moan about getting the customary penalty as if you were singled out. It's like acting like you're being oppressed when you're sent to prison after raping someone. Sure, nobody forced the jury to convict you, but you pretty much asked to be sent to prison.
Someone asked this in the previous thread but what outcome was she possibly expecting when she opened her mouth, after having already listened to a good part of his standup and knowing what she was dealing with?
I need to start this by saying Rape is horrible, and I really dislike that it is used in any comedic humor whatsoever.
That said, most people's brains don't pull a 180, especially in a fast-paced riff. If the subject was on Daniel's mind, then it makes sense that would be the first comeback he would think of - and you don't have time to think of a second or a third if you are going to keep your "comedic timing." If it was a situation where the audience was calling out suggestions, then again his mind was already working on formulating something.
Most people aren't going to be having a conversation on the finer points of, say, bags of dicks and immediately be able to cold-shift into obese jokes. Well, not without some kind of transition and pre-planning.
Not unless you're a toddler and still surprised by peekaboo.
It would be a little odd if he replied with something entirely unrelated. The formula for dealing with hecklers is to shock/shame them into silence, and it just so happened she'd made a target of herself on the subject of Rape. Of course he went there. That's the joke. It's a doubledown.
It's more simple than that, she was offended by rape so he pushed her further by using rape
If she had said "CHILD MOLESTATION JOKES AREN'T FUNNY" he would have gone there instead: he was trying to get to her because that's what you do to hecklers
More to the point, she was heckling him about rape jokes. He went with a rape joke because that was topical.
Every now and then segments from one of his CDs will come up on Pandora on my comedy channel. It's at the end of his set, and he's doing his usual thing - pushing a joke further and further into uncomfortable territory until the audience finally "objects," usually by cringing or booing the subject. His retort was: "Oh, so that was over the line but the joke about raping my sister was okay? Good to know." or something to that effect.
Again, it's part of his comedy, and one that I'm not fond of, but he does it entirely for shock value and acknowledges that it's a horrible subject. Personally, I can see how it is an act, and hopefully not what Tosh really is like as a person. Not that I have any clue about his private life, or any comedian's private life.
Nope. No he didn't. I'm tired of this argument. It doesn't work that way.
Speaking about a concept, or using a word in a jocular manner does not mean one supports the actual effects that concept, or that word, has on people. It just does not work that way.
Feminists are going to keep on saying it though.
Do you know how asinine it is to say:
"Welp, ya told a rape joke! I know you support rape now ya gosh darn rapist!"
"Welp, ya said n----r! Ya gosh darn racist!"
"Welp, ya called something gay. It's nice to know you don't support gay marriage, ya homophobe!"
Stop saying that people support concepts they don't, or have feelings they don't because you want to create this myth of rape culture, derived from rape jokes told on Xbox Live or in frat parties or some other nonsense, that causes people to go out and feel awesome about rape. Do you know how absurd that is?
He got heckled. He made fun of the heckler using the topic for which he was being heckled. That's it.
I know, though, they can't just let the issue die. This may be their only chance to talk about "rape culture" for a while!
I think it completely invalidates any further points you are going to make, to say that someone using a word, in whatever context, makes them party to whatever someone else, who uses the word, may support.
Words are words. Saying them doesn't mean you support anything you don't explicitly say you support.
My girlfriend calls other women c--ts on occasion. Does she hate women?
If I say something is gay, juvenile though it may be, but I strongly support gay rights, does that make me homophobic or a gay basher?
Your argument is asinine and absurd.
Haha, you're hilarious. I like that you take an argument to it's most extreme in order to defeat it.
Haha, did I say that those who use any of those words, around those who are subjected to their use as pejoratives, should not be subject to the consequences?
I said that saying word A does not mean you support concept B. It just does not work that way.
You're taking it to extremes because you really can't back up your point without doing so.
I think that pendulum is a bit too far the other way. When using words as weapons, you need to know the cultural markers behind them for them to be effective. If you are not affected by the cultural markers, then the attack has much less meat. If you are ignorant to the cultural markers when making the attack, then you are setting yourself up for a really, really bad situation.
Like.. I don't like to cuss in real life. If i'm cussing, it means I'm REALLY upset. I don't really have a way to convey the middle range of offensive language though (between god damned and motherfucking asshole, for instance), so I tend to fall back on the cultural markers I find funny/humorous. Gorram, Frak, and bloody are my go-tos, because most of them only have context for people in the nerd community. For everyone else, I'm just making up shit. The problem with that is that from what I hear, "bloody" can be taken as extremely offensive - not that I have first had experience with it. So I'm setting myself up in a situation where I use language and am ignorant of its markers, and this could cause problems. Same thing happened to the Bulletstorm guys: They didn't understand the weight and context of the language they were throwing around, so they used it much more than they should've and it became comedic. Hell, same thing happened with Hasbro - the director of the episode with derpy hooves didn't understand the cultural significance of the term "derpy" and used it, offending some in a misguided attempt to please the fans.
Of course, people tend to overreact to cultural markers they find offensive.. In almost all those situations, the problems were escalated by a vocal minority. But that's because some people want to erase those cultural markers. A good example is the N-word. Personally? I'll never, ever say it. EVER. I get uncomfortable even thinking about Spanish color word choice. On the other hand, you have people who wear it as a badge of pride, as a cultural identifier, and a way to "own" it and be proud of it. On the OTHER other hand, you have people in that group who use it in the same context as some pretty reprehensible stuff, adding another layer of cultural markers to it. It muddies the waters something fierce.
There is a time and a place for attack words. No one's a saint, and every now and then people feel the need to put down others. Hopefully it's done with respect, but let's be honest - humanity has a very low level of respect for a other members of the species; it's kinda hardwired in that we have dominance issues. But ignoring a word isn't going to remove the cultural markers, nor is trying to pass it off as meaningless. The best way to combat cultural markers is to acknowledge them and fix the root cause of the problem - which is, again, this need to feel better than someone else.
(Yes, I know, broad statements and not the only cause, so on. I'm just throwing that out there; feel free to rip it apart.
Well it's the only place these threads end anyways
you don't see any link between tosh essentially saying "wouldn't it be great if this lady, who has spoken out against me and should be punished (as we agree all hecklers should), was raped" and the cultural tradition of viewing rape as a proper consequence for women who behave poorly?