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[League of Legends] It's not punny how much of a thorn in my side Zyra will be.

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Posts

  • DarisDaris Registered User regular
    Now they are buffing Kayle and Teemo?

    Why must I have basic and AIT during the best streak of buffs/champs/skins ever?

    Seriously, Lux buffs, Shyvana skin, new female mid, new female jungle, an Eve rework, and now Kayle buffs.

    DAMN!!!

  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular

    That is not really all that good and misunderstands a lot of the fundamental aspects of how humans play games. It works as a "how do I construct my game" heuristic but not actually explaining why meta-games exist and is just flat out wrong as for why games continue to be interesting.

    For instance, the idea that you can have a "mathematical idea of balance" is just flat out wrong. No, you cannot, your game is too complicated, we do not possess computers or methods of analysis strong enough to crack those problems [and if we did, then games would become a lot more uninteresting]

    His "perfectly balanced game" doesn't really exist, what exists are games with a single pure strategy solutions, I.E. games in which the optimal strategy has been found, and that optimal strategy is the same every time [I.E. not random].

    Chess is interesting because such optimal strategy has not been found [it is not a perfectly balanced game, white has a ~5% advantage] and so, for the same reasons that people can play different games of League of Legends, people can play different games of chess. The optimal moves are opaque enough and the way that play progresses diverges enough that searching for the solution is more or less impossible, and remembering the solution even if you found it might not feasible for a human. Unlike checkers for instance, where a computer exists that cannot be beaten.

    Wizards doesn't have their power curve because its "balanced", but because if they did not keep to their curve then games became not fun to play. Deviations from the curve resulted in turn 1 wins. What they did was reduce the concept of building decks and playing the game into a heuristic and then made cards around conforming the power curve to the solution to their heuristic. This doesn't make the game "perfectly imbalanced" it makes the game hard to solve

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    interrobang
  • Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    Zomro wrote: »
    From what I can see, Rengar looks like a white lion with his mane tied into the hair-do. Probably from the same jungle as Wukong, playing up the "king of the jungle" aspect. Which, of course, is dumb because lions don't live in the jungle.

    I will, however, let it slide because lion man is cool.

    no rengar wants to murder cho and mount his head on a spike because cho is the ultimate game

    true fax

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Extra Credits tends to be wrong about everything, and rather preachy about it. I was surprised to see it get picked up by PATV.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Extra Credits tends to be wrong about everything, and rather preachy about it. I was surprised to see it get picked up by PATV.

    I disagree!

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  • PacificstarPacificstar Registered User regular
    Pac and team: a thunder crack killed my power suddenly and without warning.

    Same thing happened to me 10 minutes later as well.
    eeSanG wrote: »
    If my first back as an AD carry has more than 1400 gold I'll get Phage instead of Dorans. The proc is pretty sick when you have laning advantage.

    I feel the extra sustain from doran's blade would be better in 1v1 combat which you get into a lot in top lane. Plus it's cheaper so you can get it before they can get a phage provided you are even in CS. And the early advantage in top lane is very important.

    Well, I think you have to compare how many auto attacks you'd need to regain the amount of health that Phage gives over double dorans. So the calc is something like Phage HP- DD HP = X. Lifesteal*#autos = X. Solve for the number of autos. Remember that when you've only got 6-9% lifesteal on 100dmg, we're talking like 6-9 HP per auto attack. Having the health may come out to be the better stat, particularly in an all-in fight.

    I'm kinda with @eeSanG on this one. If I'm way ahead I prefer the Phage (especially on Ezreal), and if I'm slightly ahead I'll take the Dblades. Also you can sit on the Phage the whole game rather than eventually selling one or both of the Dblades, so I guess it's a bit more gold efficient.

  • Forever ZefiroForever Zefiro cloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered User regular
    Ok so top Jayce, how should I be building?

    I think last game I went boots+HP, then Philo + Dblade on first back, then Phage on next, then I forget, a BFSword maybe

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    XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
  • Hargaad of OmnarHargaad of Omnar New Badges? Fucking BOSS!Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Chess is interesting because such optimal strategy has not been found [it is not a perfectly balanced game, white has a ~5% advantage] and so, for the same reasons that people can play different games of League of Legends, people can play different games of chess. The optimal moves are opaque enough and the way that play progresses diverges enough that searching for the solution is more or less impossible, and remembering the solution even if you found it might not feasible for a human. Unlike checkers for instance, where a computer exists that cannot be beaten.

    Might I suggest you check out Game Over: Kasparov and the Machine. Awesome documentary on (computer) chess.
    Chess is perfectly balanced to start, as is LoL. However, once minions spawn, the game does seem to become unbalanced as one side eventually gains an advantage and pushes for a win. I haven't run tests, but I think blue team gets the advantage?
    Anyways, in both chess and LoL, the only thing that imbalances the game is taking a risk to hopefully set yourself up for better positioning later.
    Playing a game of aggression will only result in making too many sacrifices and losing. Obviously, you can only turtle so long, but the idea is to withhold your position long enough until you can make a favorable trade, or the enemy baits with poor results for them.

    Star Wars (2 separate links)
    Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
    Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!

    I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
  • Hargaad of OmnarHargaad of Omnar New Badges? Fucking BOSS!Registered User regular
    Pac and team: a thunder crack killed my power suddenly and without warning.

    Same thing happened to me 10 minutes later as well.
    eeSanG wrote: »
    If my first back as an AD carry has more than 1400 gold I'll get Phage instead of Dorans. The proc is pretty sick when you have laning advantage.

    I feel the extra sustain from doran's blade would be better in 1v1 combat which you get into a lot in top lane. Plus it's cheaper so you can get it before they can get a phage provided you are even in CS. And the early advantage in top lane is very important.

    Well, I think you have to compare how many auto attacks you'd need to regain the amount of health that Phage gives over double dorans. So the calc is something like Phage HP- DD HP = X. Lifesteal*#autos = X. Solve for the number of autos. Remember that when you've only got 6-9% lifesteal on 100dmg, we're talking like 6-9 HP per auto attack. Having the health may come out to be the better stat, particularly in an all-in fight.

    I'm kinda with @eeSanG on this one. If I'm way ahead I prefer the Phage (especially on Ezreal), and if I'm slightly ahead I'll take the Dblades. Also you can sit on the Phage the whole game rather than eventually selling one or both of the Dblades, so I guess it's a bit more gold efficient.

    But 'gold efficient' can be negated by the fact that having 2 dblades can help you score a kill versus having just 1 dblade and forcing the enemy to go back to heal up.

    Star Wars (2 separate links)
    Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
    Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!

    I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    why stop at 2

    6 doran's blades

  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    21stCentury on
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    why stop at 2

    6 doran's blades

    One time I was leveling up alts for the RP and this blitzcrank asked me how he should level/build. I told him to max W and get six dorans blades.

    He ended that game ~18/5/3.

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited August 2012

    The most interestingly incorrect thing about that is how he talks about League's strategy evolving or changing... when it hasn't. Like, I guess you can say "picking different champs" is different, but League's meta has been the same for months. One jungler of any variety, one AP mid, one tanky AD/AP top, a 0 CS support and AD carry bot.

    There's also basically no explanation of "perfect imbalance" here. I think he's talking about asymmetric games, but it's really hard to tell, and really his "perfect imbalance" just seems to mean "balanced enough that multiple strategies work, instead of being balanced because one thing is clearly the best or the game is perfectly symmetrical beyond even Chess."

    EDIT: Also, the "cyclical imbalance" is pretty much just "hey, stuff has soft/hard counters, but we're making up our term for it." And League's F2P isn't the best for everyone; it does shaft people attempting to get into competitive play a good bit.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    The most interestingly incorrect thing about that is how he talks about League's strategy evolving or changing... when it hasn't. Like, I guess you can say "picking different champs" is different, but League's meta has been the same for months. One jungler of any variety, one AP mid, one tanky AD/AP top, a 0 CS support and AD carry bot.
    A slowly changing meta isn't the same as one that doesn't change.

    The meta is vastly different than when I started.

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    Sokpuppet
  • ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

    No one listen to this guy. Do Chase Singed. Chase Singed Every Time. if you're any good, you'll succeed! ;)

    21stCentury on
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    The most interestingly incorrect thing about that is how he talks about League's strategy evolving or changing... when it hasn't. Like, I guess you can say "picking different champs" is different, but League's meta has been the same for months. One jungler of any variety, one AP mid, one tanky AD/AP top, a 0 CS support and AD carry bot.
    A slowly changing meta isn't the same as one that doesn't change.

    The meta is vastly different than when I started.

    Hell with Azubu Blaze's performance at the last MLG the meta is literally changing right now.

    liEt3nH.png
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    The most interestingly incorrect thing about that is how he talks about League's strategy evolving or changing... when it hasn't. Like, I guess you can say "picking different champs" is different, but League's meta has been the same for months. One jungler of any variety, one AP mid, one tanky AD/AP top, a 0 CS support and AD carry bot.
    A slowly changing meta isn't the same as one that doesn't change.

    The meta is vastly different than when I started.

    Hell with Azubu Blaze's performance at the last MLG the meta is literally changing right now.

    Or Kogmaw+4 supports.

    Or how bot lane is pretty quickly turning into a 24/7 murder lane instead of a 30 minute passive farm fest.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    What did Azubu Blaze do? i haven't followed the pro circuit in months.

  • ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

    No one listen to this guy. Do Chase Singed. Chase Singed Every Time. if you're any good, you'll succeed! ;)

    While we're on the subject of bad advice:
    Yeah, go ahead and stand there, there's no way Xerath can hit you with his W->Q from back here.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    What did Azubu Blaze do? i haven't followed the pro circuit in months.
    If I recall correctly they shoved lanes as hard as they could the entire game.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

    No one listen to this guy. Do Chase Singed. Chase Singed Every Time. if you're any good, you'll succeed! ;)

    While we're on the subject of bad advice:
    Yeah, go ahead and stand there, there's no way Xerath can hit you with his W->Q from back here.

    In their defense there's a good chance they've never even seen a xerath.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    What did Azubu Blaze do? i haven't followed the pro circuit in months.

    Brought Korean-style aggression to the tournament scene.

    Games they played in MLG

    A writeup on their play that describes it better than I can.

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    21stCenturyStyrofoam Sammich
  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    Ever wish you had a button that would let you reach through your monitor and slap someone on your team?

    The LeBlanc in this game makes me wish it was real. Dear lord, some people are the internet equivalent of explosive diarrhea.

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    COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    I kind of wish I liked Xerath, you're right that nobody has experience with him so you can pretty easily dunk.

    Heh, they made an AMA about Katarina's new lore, and have not answered a single thing because there is nothing but hate in that thread.

  • tehjestertehjester Tampa, FlRegistered User regular
    the more i look at Rengar's kit, the more i want to play him as a solo top rather than a jungler. does that make me a bad person?

    PSN: JesterKing13 Blizz Battletag: tehjester#1448
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I kind of wish I liked Xerath, you're right that nobody has experience with him so you can pretty easily dunk.
    I've had a lot of success focusing on Champs that are underplayed. There's something to be said for taking advantage of people who don't know a champion's skillset.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    tehjester wrote: »
    the more i look at Rengar's kit, the more i want to play him as a solo top rather than a jungler. does that make me a bad person?

    No, he is very solid solo top, that's how i've been playing him mostly

    NNID: delphinidaes
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  • ExtreaminatusExtreaminatus Go forth and amplify, the Noise Marines are here!Registered User regular
    I've gotten a couple good Xerath games lately.

    One against a Morgana that traded well with me, and I with her until the teamfights started, then I cleaned up shop.

    The second was against Diana. That matchup was bad for her pre-6. Every time she'd come in close, E -> Q -> AA, then W->Q as she ran away.

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    The most interestingly incorrect thing about that is how he talks about League's strategy evolving or changing... when it hasn't. Like, I guess you can say "picking different champs" is different, but League's meta has been the same for months. One jungler of any variety, one AP mid, one tanky AD/AP top, a 0 CS support and AD carry bot.
    A slowly changing meta isn't the same as one that doesn't change.

    The meta is vastly different than when I started.

    The meta is different than when I started as well, but it hasn't changed since somewhere between when everybody started running a jungler with Smite (at one point it was pretty much just Warwick/Fiddles without Smite) and when people started running AP characters mid, which I swear was at least 50% because of the release of Pantheon and mid pantheon being an absolute hard counter to pretty much all the AD characters they ran mid. The only changes have really been jungle starts and routes changing because of their releasing/changing junglers so they're mana independent and when they redid the jungle. It's been the same for almost a year (at least since S1 officially started, though there was a brief period of roamers about that time, which was just an aggressive support at bot going around), and the changes in which champions are in favor haven't greatly changed how the map plays, so I feel confident calling it pretty stagnant at this point. It may change at some point, but considering the way Riot releases champions it seems pretty clear they are designing champions to fit squarely within the current archetypes.

    I ate an engineer
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Read the article up thread. The meta is changing.

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  • TommattTommatt Registered User regular
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

    No one listen to this guy. Do Chase Singed. Chase Singed Every Time. if you're any good, you'll succeed! ;)

    While we're on the subject of bad advice:
    Yeah, go ahead and stand there, there's no way Xerath can hit you with his W->Q from back here.
    Fucking xerath. Played my worst LoL game ever against him in mid. Picked a char I shouldn't have, and got my shit kicked in. Oh your in between two towers? Doesn't matter, Q to the face!!!

    He was at 80cs when I was at 36. Xerath always kicks my shit in :(

  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I did read that article. I am not convinced. Aggressive early game plays and early Oracle's for ward clearing are things I've seen forever, and even more than that, it has not changed the laning composition at all. Pushing for early towers is also something I have seen forever; I honestly thought the general concept of "don't aggressively take towers after successful ganks because it hurts farming ability" was more of a gimmick than taking early towers.

    Not only that, but aggressive playing has been around forever and it's always been countered by proper caution and turtling. I don't have any reason to believe that things will not snap back. Maybe things will changed but at this point nothing has changed except minutae that only matter at high level games, which definitely goes against the point the video made about any player being able to experiment; unless you're a top level pro Korean team, you're doing something stupid by breaking the current meta, which hasn't changed for a year and is only possibly changing at high level play now.

    EDIT: Not only that, but the concept has always been "aggression works at lower levels of play, but not at higher levels of play because everybody is too cautious to get out of position and it hurts farm and EXP very badly to fail a gank for minor rewards of you succeed." Unless this concept has changed (and I believe it was based mostly on calculations based on gold, not match data), the best solution to beating an over aggressive playstyle such as that will always be to play smarter defensively.

    Also, Riot has stated that they're considering changing Oracle's to have a duration to prevent such early snowballing ward devestation, so Riot is actively working to shut down at least part of the change in the meta.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Had a very pleasant run in my first game as Singed: 8/1/4. Sure, Diana and Ryze, you can chase me into my tower...

    but you're not gonna have a good time! :D

    Singed is the best. I especially love when 2 or 3 people see me under 25% HP and chase me without ever catching me, and them dying in the process. Everyone takes the bait, heheh.

    I don't why so many people do this instead of trying to move around and cut him off, but:
    Don't. Chase. Singed.

    No one listen to this guy. Do Chase Singed. Chase Singed Every Time. if you're any good, you'll succeed! ;)

    This is really the hook -- it helps that you don't see Singed very often, but the main thing is the deadly combo of a) knowing that Singed can't do that much to you unless you make mistakes and b) thinking you don't make that many mistakes!

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Their strategy was far more than "aggressive early". If anything "everyone is roaming" is a more accurate description.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Their strategy was far more than "aggressive early". If anything "everyone is roaming" is a more accurate description.

    Again: The Roamer meta existed before. It got shut down by the same old strategy of "if you don't get ganked, you're ahead because ganks are very high risk in terms of cash." Combine that with the possible upcoming nerfs to Oracle's, and I don't feel like these changes are likely to last. Especially because some of the aggressive plays mentioned seemed to work much more because "they wouldn't possibly do that" more than anything that wasn't counterable with the current meta (see: the baron thing. Pink baron always and keep your wards up 100% of the time).

    EDIT X2: Also, to continue tying things back to the video: That article and the tournament it referenced were almost guaranteed to have came out after the video. Given the time the video was created at, League's meta was static with no apparent changes and even now unless you're playing a pro Korean team, it seems unlikely things will have changed in the past few months.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I feel as if goal posts keep getting moved.

    I mean you claimed the meta is stagnant right after the meta got destroyed by a new strategy.

    Also you seem to be setting up this claim that a meta isn't a meta unless it can't be countered or something?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    Hargaad of Omnar
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    The metagame is not lane composition, and if you were saying "Lane composition has not changed in a long time" that is a different and separate thing.

    liEt3nH.png
  • milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I feel as if goal posts keep getting moved.

    I mean you claimed the meta is stagnant right after the meta got destroyed by a new strategy.

    Also you seem to be setting up this claim that a meta isn't a meta unless it can't be countered or something?

    My point is simple: I said that the video was wrong about League's meta changing. At the time the video was released, it hadn't changed. If it has changed, it's only changed for high level people (which again, means the video is inaccurate) and even then, the article only makes it sound like "things are much more aggressive" while almost all of the basic components of the meta (jungler, solo top, AP mid, AD carry, zero CS support with GP/10 items, focus cash towards the carry, ward heavily, jungler buys an Oracles early to destroy wards, Baron is very important, etc etc) are almost all there.

    The other point I was making was that this "shift in the meta" has been seen before in the roamer meta. It didn't work because the current meta beat it. The same concept of aggressive roaming has been done before and failed to the current meta. I am not saying it can't be a meta if it isn't countered, but I am saying that one tournament where the current meta lost out to an aggressive roaming strategy does not mean that it will shift permanently, and the fact that an aggressive roaming strategy has been tried before and was eventually discarded is evidence that means I doubt it would stick.

    milski on
    I ate an engineer
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