Recently a dude saw some of my models and asked me to paint his army for an upcoming tourney for money. I said I'd do it because unemployment is a bitch, but I'm having trouble with the pricing, which we agreed we'd discuss next week. On one hand, I don't want to ask too much, but I also don't want to slave away for hours for little pay. I've never done comission work so I'm kinda flying blind here. Some advice would be really helpful.
He wants the army painted until the 25th of November, above tabletop quaility. We will assume that's roughly the equivalent of the model I posted here - Link to forum post
That's a pretty good overall cost, but the rates are a bit skewed from my experience.
Generally speaking, without timelines involved (Meaning the painter is going to take 3x as long as you discuss) you should expect to pay about the cost of the model in question for a good tabletop standard.
Going by that, you should be charging less on infantry, more for the bigger stuff. But, every painter is different. Some charge more for infantry because they find it takes more time overall than vehicles. Depends on the models.
If timelines are involved (And are rigidly kept to) then the price goes up concurrent with the timeline. Now, a 3 month timeline is pretty long for someone who's unemployed, so that isn't a big factor here. If he ended up wanting it faster and you had to paint like it was a full-time job to get it done in time, you could do like some of the 'pro' painters, and do your estimate based on estimated hours worked.
If you use an airbrush, you obviously can get a lot done much faster, but higher end painters don't always factor that into their pricing. That's a personal choice.
You've got to keep in mind your client as well. There are really good painting services out there that have insane turnaround rates, but they also charge up to, and around, 2000 USD for a 2k army in 2 weeks. Meanwhile, most individual painters who are in your position, often charge ~300-800 for an army, depending on the complexity of the scheme, the contents, their personal taste towards painting the army, etc.
TL;DR: Your rate is definitely in the right ballpark, and really is up to you two to decide. If you came to me with that as the starting estimate, I'd be willing to work with you on it (Up or down, depending on factors).
For comparison, I 'paid' (Traded models with an MSRP value of) around 1000 USD (Roughly the cost of the models) for ~2500 pts of Dark Eldar to a very high tabletop standard, including numerous vehicles and all of it being white as the primary color. It also took over a year and a LOT of complaining to get it done.
In my case I think the timesink will be the vehicles since I don't use an airbrush, and those Riptides scare me. Infantry I'm pretty much ready to jump into it, that's what I really like painting, especially military schemes like he seems to want. Beign Tau is a really nice bonus too as I really like the models. I'm also going to try and go crazy on the detail if I have the time (at no extra charge) so I can then use this work as publicity and maybe land a few more comissions.
Regarding the prices, I'll fiddle a bit with it, but I think I'm confortable around the 300€ mark for my first time doing this. Anything more is a welcome bonus, but I'm afraid of scaring him off.
Well at the very least paint and come to an agrrement on what standard just above tabletop means. Paint everything to that standard first. Then go back over for extra flourishes if your still keen.
I'm assuming he wants something that will look good off the table. Decent shading and highlighting, getting that lens effect on the firewarriors, probably no OSL or NMM, no camo patterns. I've already told him we should discuss it first, so we should meet soon to get that sorted out.
What scares me the most right now is the size of the Riptides/Wraithknight, I've never painted something like that. Looks like a lot more surface area when compared to a tank.
valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
Anyone who uses Dawn Power Dissolver on plastic models....
How long do you let it sit, and is it just sprayed on? How heavily do you spray it?
I've emptied two bottles of Simple Green on these tac marines, and some of the paint came off, but not enough that I feel comfortable painting it back up. And they've been sitting almost two weeks. Well, half of them. Half have been sitting one week. I just pulled out a metal Valhallan that has been sitting for almost a year and the white primer on the plastic lasgun still won't fully come off, though all the paint on the metal had.
Also... funny thing... everything on the tac marines that was boltgun metal is now just the black spray paint I used as primer. Except for the things colored gold or scorpion green. All the boltgun metal and tin bitz came off just from the soaking.
It Burns, I'd personally be asking for more. There are a lot of big models in there and with out an Airbrush they will suck. Admittedly, I'm Australian, so my prices are kinda out of wack, but yeah I agree with J, it seems like too little. I'd probably be asking for ~300 Euros for Basic Tabletop standard (ie, lots of airbrushing and washes), or good tabletop for a mate. For above table top, well it depends on how good. I again agree with J, do it to basic tabletop first, then see how much extra you can do.
@It_Burns also do you have all of the needed paints? If not will he be providing them? I completely understand not wanting to ask for too much but that could be a good way to "softly" increase the price. Ask for $ and request that he purchases the supplies. That way the sticker price may not be so bad and everyone knows paint is needed.
Accualt on
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I tried some Dawn Power Dissolver last night on an old plastic marine. What I'd seen online recommended leaving it for 2 hours. I fell asleep and left it overnight. About... 12 hours. I took the ol' electric toothbrush to it, and the paint came right off. Even the black Testor's spray paint I had used as primer. Not all of it. But much more than the Simple Green which has been soaking for almost two weeks.
From what I see online, barring buying an ultrasonic cleaner, this seems to be my best option right now for quickly stripping models. I'll have to make sure I wash them up good after getting all the paint off though. And I may spray this one again because I missed some areas on the underside of the model.
So I figured I'd work on some painting, and the next step was trying to airbrush Solar Macharius Orange (old Foundation paint). This was a monumental failure, and I'm not sure exactly why. The paint had congealed a bit, and I figured as I was going to be thinning it for airbrushing this would be fine. However, using Tamiya X20 thinner, resulted in paint that looked right but was actually swimming with little chunks. So as soon as it went in the airbrush these little chunks would immediately clog the needle resulting in having to spend 30-45 minutes cleaning the whole thing out. Added more thinner, stirred the paint more, same thing happens. Is this because my paint is old, or because it doesn't get on well with the X20? Would thinning with water work better?
X-20A that is, the acrylic thinner rather than Enamel.
Chrysis on
Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
tamiya acrylics are not the same as GW/Vallejo. They are alcohol based and the thinner will do terrible things to water based paint as you discovered. I sprayed the old GW foundations using just plain water as a thinner.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
A water based acrylic thinner would also work well, Liquitex Airbrush Medium for example.
@ Asher, Accualt: The more I think about it and look at the models, the more I think I need to set the price higher or get an airbrush. Those Riptides look bigger everytime I look at them. And the idea about the supplies is good because I bet I'll have to get at least some primer and paints, especially if for some reason he only wants me to use Citadel paints and no Vallejo. The only CItadel paints I have are washes.
How much does an entry level airbrush go for these days? Just something I could use reliably to basecoat and maybe throw on some camoflage.
tamiya acrylics are not the same as GW/Vallejo. They are alcohol based and the thinner will do terrible things to water based paint as you discovered. I sprayed the old GW foundations using just plain water as a thinner.
Thing is the X-20A worked fine with the old old Blazing Orange. I'll give it another go with straight water tomorrow and see what happens.
Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
@ Asher, Accualt: The more I think about it and look at the models, the more I think I need to set the price higher or get an airbrush. Those Riptides look bigger everytime I look at them. And the idea about the supplies is good because I bet I'll have to get at least some primer and paints, especially if for some reason he only wants me to use Citadel paints and no Vallejo. The only CItadel paints I have are washes.
How much does an entry level airbrush go for these days? Just something I could use reliably to basecoat and maybe throw on some camoflage.
I'm no pro with an airbrush, but I'm getting some good results. I went with a double action Iwata, but that made the learning curve pretty steep. A good single action isn't that expensive. Don't cheap out on the compressor. Get a tank one. I didn't and regret it. The Vallejo Model air range is really good. Most of the time it goes through the airbrush as is, but adding a drop of thinner medium is always a good idea. if it's too thick, use windex to thin it down. Finally, remember that an airbrush isn't a substitute for brushwork. To make something look good, it'll usually need a fair bit of brushwork as well. Try and break him of this GW paint only idea as well. The latest gen of GW paints isn't that great in my experience and I've been moving more towards Vallejo and P3.
tamiya acrylics are not the same as GW/Vallejo. They are alcohol based and the thinner will do terrible things to water based paint as you discovered. I sprayed the old GW foundations using just plain water as a thinner.
Thing is the X-20A worked fine with the old old Blazing Orange. I'll give it another go with straight water tomorrow and see what happens.
I have the same issues, usually i'll use screen wash as my thinner and it works fine on my standard paints and vallejo game color, but beads up the foundations and model color. Airbrushing seems to be very much give it a go and see, especially with regards to paints thinners and how thin you want to go vs psi.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Yeah, some paints will work OK and others won't. It's actually more to do with the pigment than the binder, carrier or solvent, so it will be more likely to vary between colours but, even then, companies have even known to change ingredients between batches of the same colour and cause an adverse reaction where there was none before.
Also, you airbrush people: how do you thin your paints? Straight in the airbrush cup?
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
For quick batches I use plastic shot glasses (way cheaper than medicine cups) but for anything I'm going to want to keep around (a custom base colour mix for example) I use an empty dropper bottle.
I try not to use the paint cup on the airbrush itself because there's usually no way to ensure an even mix, due to the needle getting in the way.
For quick batches I use plastic shot glasses (way cheaper than medicine cups) but for anything I'm going to want to keep around (a custom base colour mix for example) I use an empty dropper bottle.
I try not to use the paint cup on the airbrush itself because there's usually no way to ensure an even mix, due to the needle getting in the way.
This. Plastic shot glasses are your friend. I have mixed directly in the cup, but only with modelair.
I called up a friend and he might have a decent airbrush (double action I think, no clue on the brand) he can lend me, I'm out of luck on the compressor tough. I'm thinking I can buy the compressor right now and eventually invest in a decent airbrush. Is there anything I need to look for in a compressor besides having a tank and not bursting my eardrums?
Also, you airbrush people: how do you thin your paints? Straight in the airbrush cup?
There are two ways I do it - and I got my tips from Golden Demon winners, so they know their shit.
The first way is pre-blend in a small jar, like a baby food jar. It's preferable for batch jobs, and you can put the lid on to prevent evaporation. They also make air-brush jars with agitators in them, that you just twist the bottom, and it mixes the paint inside. I found then randomly at a tool store here in the states, and cleaned'em out. They are badass.
The second way I was taught is a bit sloppier, but allows for quick color swaps. Basically get a paint easel, a cheap one kids would use in school, that has cups in it. Place in paint with an eyelet dropper, place in mixing medium (to whatever ratio you use), give a quick stir and mix, and then using the same dropper, suck the paint back up into it, and then squirt into the top cup of the airbrush. It is incredibly efficient, and much neater than my fumbling bullshit ways of past. You'll need a couple of eyelet droppers - one to use on paint, and one to use on your medium, as using just one can contaminate your medium. But you can use the 'dirty' dropper for both initial paint, mixing, and administering to the airbrush.
During a iron-painter competition, I used it to paint 2 Tau Devilfish, a Hammerhead, 3 crisis suits, and 12 firewarriors on a triple paint masking scheme.
Actually, I should post pictures to show how well it worked. Lemme go dig up the models.
I recently got into Warmachine, with one of my restrictions / goals being that I need to get my initial forces painted before I buy any more (I got Khador from the 2 player box + widowmakers + war dog for a total of 13 models).
I finished my first model a couple days ago. I like that I have a reasonable chance of getting everything painted, compared to my Orc and Goblin WHFB army
Thanks! Originally I was just going to put a couple marks on the base to denote the front arc, but thought painting the whole arc gold would look more spiffy.
This is also the first use of a homemade light box + fiddling with camera settings I have done. I never liked the results I got doing an automatic point-n-shoot (or using my phone camera) for minis, and I am much much happier with how this turned out. It makes me want to go back and photograph some of my favorites in my collection.
Alright, so I have to tell a set-up story to explain these photos.
First, these were painted from base primer (the light grey you see), to what you see in these photo's, in about 18 hours of straight hobbying, with few breaks. There was a painting competition, 'Apocalypse on the Apocalypse', back when the Mayans were supposed to destroy the earth last winter. The hobby shop I frequent made sport of it, and we had a 24 hour iron painter, from noon to noon. I made it to about...6 or 7 AM the next day, before my eyes just gave up on me, and I went home.
This is a three color paint masking scheme. The lightest color you see on the tanks and crisis suits is the actual primer I airbrushed on. The mid-tone wasn't very mid - in hindsight, it was too close to the my top dark scheme - so I should have probably mixed something darker. In order to stay efficient, I just used base vallejo model air colors, rather than custom mix - you have to work smart and hard to make the deadline. I also used the eye-dropper technique mentioned above to get paint into the airbrush quick-as-can, and it's damn solid. To lay down all 3 colors, I took me about 10 hours. In between each color of paint, you have to hit the model with matte dull coat spray, otherwise, the painters tape will actually take up the last layers paint. Once the dull coate dries, you lay down your masking tape, and proceed with layer 2, until you're done.
This was way, way, way too complicated for a 24 hour competition - but I wanted to push myself and see what I could do. Here's da photo's!
Holy cow, I can barely make it past a one hour session without my hands and eyes begging for mercy, kudos for going 18 hours! Looks great!
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Dr_KeenbeanDumb as a buttPlanet Express ShipRegistered Userregular
So who here has tried using citadel washes through an airbrush. I'm not concerned with how well they go through. I'm concerned with what the effect is.
Is it effectively just a color filter or does it actually shade the recesses?
Posts
He wants the army painted until the 25th of November, above tabletop quaility. We will assume that's roughly the equivalent of the model I posted here - Link to forum post
The army:
3 Riptides
3 Skyrays
22 Fire Warriors
10 Kroots
1 Cadre Fireblade
Eldar:
1 Wraithknight
1 Farseer on Jetbike
5 Rangers
For that kind of quality, and having to paint it all in 3 months, I was thinking about the following prices:
Infantry - 3.5€ ($4.6 or 3£)
HQs - 7€ ($9 or 6£)
Tanks - 20€ ($26 or 17£)
Riptide/Wraith - 30€ ($40 or 26£)
Total - 292€ ($388 or 249£)
Does this look even remotely right? I mean, if you were in this guy's shoes, would that look like a decent deal? Does it look too cheap?
Generally speaking, without timelines involved (Meaning the painter is going to take 3x as long as you discuss) you should expect to pay about the cost of the model in question for a good tabletop standard.
Going by that, you should be charging less on infantry, more for the bigger stuff. But, every painter is different. Some charge more for infantry because they find it takes more time overall than vehicles. Depends on the models.
If timelines are involved (And are rigidly kept to) then the price goes up concurrent with the timeline. Now, a 3 month timeline is pretty long for someone who's unemployed, so that isn't a big factor here. If he ended up wanting it faster and you had to paint like it was a full-time job to get it done in time, you could do like some of the 'pro' painters, and do your estimate based on estimated hours worked.
If you use an airbrush, you obviously can get a lot done much faster, but higher end painters don't always factor that into their pricing. That's a personal choice.
You've got to keep in mind your client as well. There are really good painting services out there that have insane turnaround rates, but they also charge up to, and around, 2000 USD for a 2k army in 2 weeks. Meanwhile, most individual painters who are in your position, often charge ~300-800 for an army, depending on the complexity of the scheme, the contents, their personal taste towards painting the army, etc.
TL;DR: Your rate is definitely in the right ballpark, and really is up to you two to decide. If you came to me with that as the starting estimate, I'd be willing to work with you on it (Up or down, depending on factors).
For comparison, I 'paid' (Traded models with an MSRP value of) around 1000 USD (Roughly the cost of the models) for ~2500 pts of Dark Eldar to a very high tabletop standard, including numerous vehicles and all of it being white as the primary color. It also took over a year and a LOT of complaining to get it done.
Regarding the prices, I'll fiddle a bit with it, but I think I'm confortable around the 300€ mark for my first time doing this. Anything more is a welcome bonus, but I'm afraid of scaring him off.
You're also an insanely good painter, who's standard are doubtlessly very high.
What scares me the most right now is the size of the Riptides/Wraithknight, I've never painted something like that. Looks like a lot more surface area when compared to a tank.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
How long do you let it sit, and is it just sprayed on? How heavily do you spray it?
I've emptied two bottles of Simple Green on these tac marines, and some of the paint came off, but not enough that I feel comfortable painting it back up. And they've been sitting almost two weeks. Well, half of them. Half have been sitting one week. I just pulled out a metal Valhallan that has been sitting for almost a year and the white primer on the plastic lasgun still won't fully come off, though all the paint on the metal had.
Also... funny thing... everything on the tac marines that was boltgun metal is now just the black spray paint I used as primer. Except for the things colored gold or scorpion green. All the boltgun metal and tin bitz came off just from the soaking.
From what I see online, barring buying an ultrasonic cleaner, this seems to be my best option right now for quickly stripping models. I'll have to make sure I wash them up good after getting all the paint off though. And I may spray this one again because I missed some areas on the underside of the model.
X-20A that is, the acrylic thinner rather than Enamel.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
How much does an entry level airbrush go for these days? Just something I could use reliably to basecoat and maybe throw on some camoflage.
Thing is the X-20A worked fine with the old old Blazing Orange. I'll give it another go with straight water tomorrow and see what happens.
I'm no pro with an airbrush, but I'm getting some good results. I went with a double action Iwata, but that made the learning curve pretty steep. A good single action isn't that expensive. Don't cheap out on the compressor. Get a tank one. I didn't and regret it. The Vallejo Model air range is really good. Most of the time it goes through the airbrush as is, but adding a drop of thinner medium is always a good idea. if it's too thick, use windex to thin it down. Finally, remember that an airbrush isn't a substitute for brushwork. To make something look good, it'll usually need a fair bit of brushwork as well. Try and break him of this GW paint only idea as well. The latest gen of GW paints isn't that great in my experience and I've been moving more towards Vallejo and P3.
I also bought this. It's amazing. My cheap cheap china model worked great for a dozen or so sessions but I wish i bought this to start with.
I have the same issues, usually i'll use screen wash as my thinner and it works fine on my standard paints and vallejo game color, but beads up the foundations and model color. Airbrushing seems to be very much give it a go and see, especially with regards to paints thinners and how thin you want to go vs psi.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I try not to use the paint cup on the airbrush itself because there's usually no way to ensure an even mix, due to the needle getting in the way.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
This. Plastic shot glasses are your friend. I have mixed directly in the cup, but only with modelair.
Just make sure you get the proper one if going the eBay route, seems there's a lot of crap sold as that model number, often without the tank.
There are two ways I do it - and I got my tips from Golden Demon winners, so they know their shit.
The first way is pre-blend in a small jar, like a baby food jar. It's preferable for batch jobs, and you can put the lid on to prevent evaporation. They also make air-brush jars with agitators in them, that you just twist the bottom, and it mixes the paint inside. I found then randomly at a tool store here in the states, and cleaned'em out. They are badass.
The second way I was taught is a bit sloppier, but allows for quick color swaps. Basically get a paint easel, a cheap one kids would use in school, that has cups in it. Place in paint with an eyelet dropper, place in mixing medium (to whatever ratio you use), give a quick stir and mix, and then using the same dropper, suck the paint back up into it, and then squirt into the top cup of the airbrush. It is incredibly efficient, and much neater than my fumbling bullshit ways of past. You'll need a couple of eyelet droppers - one to use on paint, and one to use on your medium, as using just one can contaminate your medium. But you can use the 'dirty' dropper for both initial paint, mixing, and administering to the airbrush.
During a iron-painter competition, I used it to paint 2 Tau Devilfish, a Hammerhead, 3 crisis suits, and 12 firewarriors on a triple paint masking scheme.
Actually, I should post pictures to show how well it worked. Lemme go dig up the models.
I finished my first model a couple days ago. I like that I have a reasonable chance of getting everything painted, compared to my Orc and Goblin WHFB army
This is also the first use of a homemade light box + fiddling with camera settings I have done. I never liked the results I got doing an automatic point-n-shoot (or using my phone camera) for minis, and I am much much happier with how this turned out. It makes me want to go back and photograph some of my favorites in my collection.
First, these were painted from base primer (the light grey you see), to what you see in these photo's, in about 18 hours of straight hobbying, with few breaks. There was a painting competition, 'Apocalypse on the Apocalypse', back when the Mayans were supposed to destroy the earth last winter. The hobby shop I frequent made sport of it, and we had a 24 hour iron painter, from noon to noon. I made it to about...6 or 7 AM the next day, before my eyes just gave up on me, and I went home.
This is a three color paint masking scheme. The lightest color you see on the tanks and crisis suits is the actual primer I airbrushed on. The mid-tone wasn't very mid - in hindsight, it was too close to the my top dark scheme - so I should have probably mixed something darker. In order to stay efficient, I just used base vallejo model air colors, rather than custom mix - you have to work smart and hard to make the deadline. I also used the eye-dropper technique mentioned above to get paint into the airbrush quick-as-can, and it's damn solid. To lay down all 3 colors, I took me about 10 hours. In between each color of paint, you have to hit the model with matte dull coat spray, otherwise, the painters tape will actually take up the last layers paint. Once the dull coate dries, you lay down your masking tape, and proceed with layer 2, until you're done.
This was way, way, way too complicated for a 24 hour competition - but I wanted to push myself and see what I could do. Here's da photo's!
Group shot:
The Hammerhead:
Devilfish Uno:
Devilfish Dos:
Crisis Suits:
Firewarriors:
Is it effectively just a color filter or does it actually shade the recesses?
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
Extra props for having Crisis Suits that looks awesome instead of weirdly posed floating idiot poses