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Another [Final Fantasy] Thread is done before FF XIII Versus

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Posts

  • GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    I'd also throw in that I find the XIII character designs to be bland and boring. Granted I know that Square can go crazy at times with over the top characters, but XIII, to me, is so unremarkable from just the art aspect.

    I can kind of see Lightning, a little. If I squint. but everyone else is so uninteresting to me.

    Whereas literally every other FF has some well designed characters. Or villains. Or someone.

    I will freely admit I was a little intrigued by XIII-2's Lightning re-design.

    Selling PS3 & 360 Madcatz TE Stick
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    maybe they should go back to just making homages of star wars

    There is a chance they will misinterpret this as Star Wars I-III instead of IV-VI.

    It could still turn out better than the recent games.

    Yeah, as long as they deviate as much as they did when they made FFVI, it's at least got an even shot of being less terrible than the average.

  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    I prefer some variety in a FF cast. Can't stand all human casts.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    skeldare wrote: »
    I prefer some variety in a FF cast. Can't stand all human casts.

    12 really dropped the ball here. Massive world full of interesting races. All human except for the bunny woman.

    Nu Mou, Bangaa, Seeq? Nope.

  • WydrionWydrion Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »
    I prefer some variety in a FF cast. Can't stand all human casts.

    12 really dropped the ball here. Massive world full of interesting races. All human except for the bunny woman.

    Nu Mou, Bangaa, Seeq? Nope.

    Right? I wanted to play as Montblanc.

  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Wydrion wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »
    I prefer some variety in a FF cast. Can't stand all human casts.

    12 really dropped the ball here. Massive world full of interesting races. All human except for the bunny woman.

    Nu Mou, Bangaa, Seeq? Nope.

    Right? I wanted to play as Montblanc.

    Really need more playable Moogles.

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  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    The Sauce wrote: »
    I dunno, I find the XIII series' characters to be among the more compelling in the franchise. I mean, just look at the points of comparison:

    *snip*

    And that's okay, because the new stuff is actually good!
    The interaction between Vanille and Sazh in XIII was particularly terrific, with the light-hearted camaraderie giving way to a seriously dramatic moment that was more effective and better-written than Aeris's death in FF7 and at least as good as Celes's plunge in FF6. It was a legitimately horrifying scene, something that I don't think has ever been accomplished to that level in an RPG before.

    The antagonism between Lightning and Snow was also great. It was a very grounded, believable kind of relationship, well-acted on the part of the English voice actors, and a great little side story to flavor the proceedings.

    Hope was also a wonderfully complex character. If you felt he was "too whiny," I have to wonder if you've ever had to deal with a kid who lost someone that close to them. He had some great moments with Lightning, learning to take care of himself and continuing his inner battle about Snow. That climax scene was also quite good, IMO. The character was fully-rounded with a complicated fatherly relationship (explored just enough to develop the character, not too much to bog down the flow of the game) and a budding crush on Vanille (which featured impressive subtlety for an RPG).

    Fang was under-written, though, and Vanille suffered from the acting on the English side. So there was that.

    Also, I guess I never had a problem with "space pope." He reminded me of the religious leader of FFX, only delightfully more direct and involved with proceedings. His manipulation of events and the emotions of the characters made him a solid villain, I thought. Part of this was the excellent world design of the Fal'cie in general. They were a great implementation of a cool idea.

    Good post, but I disagree with quite a lot of it :P

    Squall, Seifer and Laguna are all quite well written by FF standards. Vanille and Sazh's scene was completely flat and predictable. Lightning and Snow played off each other well, but the resolution was awful because it was tied to the ass-backwards story decision to just play shit out and see what happens.

    Space pope is dumb because he comes out of nowhere and unceremoniously kills off Jihl, who had been the main antagonist up to that point.

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  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    Your descriptions for the cast of XIII are great. I wish I had played THAT game. But what you're leaving out is the execution. There were a few well-done, convincing moments. Hope and Snow's confrontation on the roof. Sazh's breakdown. But you're ignoring every other part. Snow may struggle with wanting to save Serah or fulfilling his focus, but he does it by saying the same line for 30 straight hours. And what about the supporting villains, the biggest throwaway characters since XII's Judges?
    Snow:
    There's the "surrender" scene at Hope's house. There's his "breakdown" scene where he outright acknowledges that he's no hero, that he's just a pretender, and that he's known that all long. There's the spats he gets into with Lightning, where almost every time he responds without attacking her or blaming her even when she's clearly in the wrong (or outright hitting him) because he wants to get along with his fiance's sister. There's the increasing desperation in how he tries to reconcile his focus and Serah's wishes because he can't permit any other outcome. There's the scene of him chipping away at Serah's crystal even as the military moves in on him.

    Yes, he uses the "hero" word too often, which is very cheesy in English (this could have used some better localization from the translation team, I think). The repeating of "save Serah" / "save Cocoon" was probably a misfire overall, even if it was very introspective on the part of Final Fantasy to basically take shots at its own history like that. But there's a whole lot more to the character than a couple repetitive lines.
    Supporting Villains:
    Yes, they were the biggest throwaway characters since the last FF's supporting villains, the judges. And the Judges were the biggest throwaways since Seymour, who was the biggest throwaway since the Queen, who was the biggest throwaway since Siefer, who was the biggest throwaway since Shin'ra, who was the biggest throwaway since Gilgamesh (FF6 was unique in that the supporting villain became the main villain), who was the biggest throwaway since the four elemental dudes, who was...

    Yeah. Nothing new here. That was actually the disappointing part; I was hoping for advancement here for the FF series rather than more of the same. The supporting villains reminded me of that general guy in the Spirits Within movie.

    I think the Turks are probably the only decent supporting villains in Final Fantasy history.

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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    skeldare wrote: »
    I prefer some variety in a FF cast. Can't stand all human casts.

    This is why FFIX stands as one of my favourite FF's. Everything about that game feels distinctly Final Fantasy, whereas other numbered FF's could have been titled as "Generic JRPG" and I wouldn't have noticed a difference.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    The Sauce wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    Your descriptions for the cast of XIII are great. I wish I had played THAT game. But what you're leaving out is the execution. There were a few well-done, convincing moments. Hope and Snow's confrontation on the roof. Sazh's breakdown. But you're ignoring every other part. Snow may struggle with wanting to save Serah or fulfilling his focus, but he does it by saying the same line for 30 straight hours. And what about the supporting villains, the biggest throwaway characters since XII's Judges?
    Snow:
    There's the "surrender" scene at Hope's house. There's his "breakdown" scene where he outright acknowledges that he's no hero, that he's just a pretender, and that he's known that all long. There's the spats he gets into with Lightning, where almost every time he responds without attacking her or blaming her even when she's clearly in the wrong (or outright hitting him) because he wants to get along with his fiance's sister. There's the increasing desperation in how he tries to reconcile his focus and Serah's wishes because he can't permit any other outcome. There's the scene of him chipping away at Serah's crystal even as the military moves in on him.

    Yes, he uses the "hero" word too often, which is very cheesy in English (this could have used some better localization from the translation team, I think). The repeating of "save Serah" / "save Cocoon" was probably a misfire overall, even if it was very introspective on the part of Final Fantasy to basically take shots at its own history like that. But there's a whole lot more to the character than a couple repetitive lines.
    Supporting Villains:
    Yes, they were the biggest throwaway characters since the last FF's supporting villains, the judges. And the Judges were the biggest throwaways since Seymour, who was the biggest throwaway since the Queen, who was the biggest throwaway since Siefer, who was the biggest throwaway since Shin'ra, who was the biggest throwaway since Gilgamesh (FF6 was unique in that the supporting villain became the main villain), who was the biggest throwaway since the four elemental dudes, who was...

    Yeah. Nothing new here. That was actually the disappointing part; I was hoping for advancement here for the FF series rather than more of the same. The supporting villains reminded me of that general guy in the Spirits Within movie.

    I think the Turks are probably the only decent supporting villains in Final Fantasy history.

    About supporting villains: Bullshit. Seymour played a huge role in X. The Queen was the classic bait and switch, and her purpose and exit were handled well. Seifer was used to make way for Edea. Shin'ra was a menace for almost the entirety of VII. The second-to-last act was the resurgence of Shin'ra, including the Junon cannon and the Weapons. Gilgamesh was a running gag, and VI also had a supporting villain. Two, even. Ultros and Typhon.

    All of these characters are memorable for one reason or another, and had some sort of arc, even if it was comedic or just there to further the plot. The first half to 3/4's of X's plot and much of its worldbuilding would not exist without Seymour's character.

    XIII and XII's supporting villains made quick, unceremonious exits because the games went through development hell. They were literally unfinished. Hell, XIII's Sid comes back from the dead like he was never killed in the first place because the CG was finished before the story was finalized.

    They probably had cool things planned for Jihl Nabaat. I wish they had time to do something with her.

    Shenshoeboxjeddy
  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    Good post, but I disagree with quite a lot of it :P

    Squall, Seifer and Laguna are all quite well written by FF standards. Vanille and Sazh's scene was completely flat and predictable. Lightning and Snow played off each other well, but the resolution was awful because it was tied to the ass-backwards story decision to just play shit out and see what happens.

    Space pope is dumb because he comes out of nowhere and unceremoniously kills off Jihl, who had been the main antagonist up to that point.
    Space Pope:
    He didn't come out of nowhere. He had been introduced before this (though via a TV broadcast sort of thing, I believe), though he was introduced as a human politician rather than a mastermind (typical fare, that). I felt his ascension into villainhood was foreshadowed, maybe even predictable. The killing of Jihl was a mistake, though, as it was rather anti-climactic (even as you go straight into a battle with his Fal'cie version).
    FF8 cast:
    I have a really hard time taking pretty much anything out of this game seriously, but I'll try to be fair with these three examples.

    Seifer was a narrow misfire. A little bit of adjustment and he could have been perfectly fine; he would have made a good party member, for example, with a reconciliation sequence, and he could have made a good rival if he had actually been made out to be threatening (outside of the intro movie at least). Instead, he always loses (and is usually pretty trivial to defeat, to boot). The player (at least in my case) winds up looking down at him pretty quickly, then pitying him for a bit, then ignoring him completely. That made his scenes more like annoying filler with a typical recurring mini-boss instead of anything with dramatic potential.

    Squall, though, was downright terrible. He starts out as a typical angsty teen, which can be okay if given good reason and a positive direction to character development. Instead, it's the groan-worthy excuse of "afraid to get close to people because he'll lose them" nonsense that gives "emo" the bad name it deserves. And it makes it worse by following it up with "love from a cute girl fixes everything." I couldn't even tolerate that when I was an angsty teenager myself, and it's just worse now.

    Laguna, though, wasn't bad. If he hadn't been caught up in such nonsense fiction that surrounded him, he could have been quite the character for the historical roster. Ultimately, my perspective every time I've played through the game was to wonder why he was included at all. His scenes were fun, his battle music was great, and his character was interesting, but it didn't really do anything to advance or enrich the game proper. Instead, it just made the rest of the game look that much more dismal by comparison.

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  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    About supporting villains: Bullshit. Seymour played a huge role in X. The Queen was the classic bait and switch, and her purpose and exit were handled well. Seifer was used to make way for Edea. Shin'ra was a menace for almost the entirety of VII. The second-to-last act was the resurgence of Shin'ra, including the Junon cannon and the Weapons. Gilgamesh was a running gag, and VI also had a supporting villain. Two, even. Ultros and Typhon.

    All of these characters are memorable for one reason or another, and had some sort of arc, even if it was comedic or just there to further the plot. The first half to 3/4's of X's plot and much of its worldbuilding would not exist without Seymour's character.

    XIII and XII's supporting villains made quick, unceremonious exits because the games went through development hell. They were literally unfinished. Hell, XIII's Sid comes back from the dead like he was never killed in the first place because the CG was finished before the story was finalized.

    They probably had cool things planned for Jihl Nabaat. I wish they had time to do something with her.
    Perhaps it's time I replayed X. I don't remember Seymour being anything other than a distraction from the main plot of journey to defeat Sin / religion of Yevon with the usual unceremonious exit and pointless final battle send-off. From what you're saying, I probably missed some things, or have some holes in my memory. It's been awhile. Of course, this does suggest that he wasn't very memorable.

    But I can't go along with those other examples. Once you leave Midgar, the Shin'ra play a background role apart from specific places that they intersect with Sephiroth (the doctor, for instance). The Weapon thing is actually a really good example. The Weapon and Shin'ra fight each other, the hero party has nothing to do with it (and is not directly threatened by either) except to go stop Weapon from killing a bunch of dudes (and thus give an extra boss fight to the game). Ultros is even worse; he's literally a random boss fight that shows up for reasons utterly unrelated to any sort of plot, just because it's funny and it was time for a boss fight. Why is he a boss fight when you're battling the empire's air force? There's no plot reason for this, no character development that happens. It's just a fight and some gag lines.

    I hear ya about the development hell, though. That's the most frustrating thing about XII. You can tell where they fudged with it by committee, stomping all over the original intent and design, and it was all for the worse.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    It's also a really frustrating aspect of XIII. How it got stomped to hell because of development problems.

  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The Sauce wrote: »
    Shen wrote: »
    Good post, but I disagree with quite a lot of it :P

    Squall, Seifer and Laguna are all quite well written by FF standards. Vanille and Sazh's scene was completely flat and predictable. Lightning and Snow played off each other well, but the resolution was awful because it was tied to the ass-backwards story decision to just play shit out and see what happens.

    Space pope is dumb because he comes out of nowhere and unceremoniously kills off Jihl, who had been the main antagonist up to that point.
    Space Pope:
    He didn't come out of nowhere. He had been introduced before this (though via a TV broadcast sort of thing, I believe), though he was introduced as a human politician rather than a mastermind (typical fare, that). I felt his ascension into villainhood was foreshadowed, maybe even predictable. The killing of Jihl was a mistake, though, as it was rather anti-climactic (even as you go straight into a battle with his Fal'cie version).
    FF8 cast:
    I have a really hard time taking pretty much anything out of this game seriously, but I'll try to be fair with these three examples.

    Seifer was a narrow misfire. A little bit of adjustment and he could have been perfectly fine; he would have made a good party member, for example, with a reconciliation sequence, and he could have made a good rival if he had actually been made out to be threatening (outside of the intro movie at least). Instead, he always loses (and is usually pretty trivial to defeat, to boot). The player (at least in my case) winds up looking down at him pretty quickly, then pitying him for a bit, then ignoring him completely. That made his scenes more like annoying filler with a typical recurring mini-boss instead of anything with dramatic potential.

    Squall, though, was downright terrible. He starts out as a typical angsty teen, which can be okay if given good reason and a positive direction to character development. Instead, it's the groan-worthy excuse of "afraid to get close to people because he'll lose them" nonsense that gives "emo" the bad name it deserves. And it makes it worse by following it up with "love from a cute girl fixes everything." I couldn't even tolerate that when I was an angsty teenager myself, and it's just worse now.

    Laguna, though, wasn't bad. If he hadn't been caught up in such nonsense fiction that surrounded him, he could have been quite the character for the historical roster. Ultimately, my perspective every time I've played through the game was to wonder why he was included at all. His scenes were fun, his battle music was great, and his character was interesting, but it didn't really do anything to advance or enrich the game proper. Instead, it just made the rest of the game look that much more dismal by comparison.

    Pope doesn't come out of nowhere, Space Pope comes out of nowhere. Until he shows up Fal'cie are these gigantic inscrutable crystalline structures, Bart running his mouth in ridiculous stereotypical villain fashion demolishes the mystery the game had cultivated around them.

    I don't know why Seifer being pitiable makes for a poorer character, it's an interesting arc that is seldom explored.

    Your read on Squall is not at all the same as mine. I see him as someone who has an incredible amount of pressure and responsibilities placed on him and rallies the best he can. He's not emo - he's confident in his own skills and a little reckless, as evinced by his choice of weapon, but doesn't really get people and isn't especially interested in learning how to at first. He's not quite sure how to deal with the loss of a peer when Seifer is presumed dead and has to come to terms with his own mortality, which is pretty tough for a 17 year old. Obviously you disregard anything to do with his arc post Disk 2 and everything to do with Rinoa past the SeeD dance, because the game's plot goes badly off the rails.

    Laguna is great by your own admission, no takebacks :P

    Shen on
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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    Kefka was the supporting villain for half of ffvi. Best support ever.

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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    skeldare wrote: »
    I just can't imagine playing a 40 + hour game on my phone.

    It's no different than playing a 40+ hour game on "Insert Handheld Here". Unless you're incredibly adverse to touch screens, it's the same thing.

    It kind of is, since you're using that device for so many other things besides playing games.

    Anyway, how is the voice compression in the iOS version? Do they come out clearer than the DS voices?

    Audio sounds the same if not better. Graphics are much crisper overall. Virtual dpad appears wherever you touch and is responsive.

    It comes with two difficulty modes. Normal and Hard. Kinda nifty for newcomers I suppose.

    Thus far I prefer the iOS version over DS, but it's still early yet.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    I enjoyed XIII, because it reminded me more of FF7 than any FF since. It felt new, especially the battle system, and I enjoyed the focus on six characters rather than a needlessly convoluted cast.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    So final fantasy dimensions finally on Android.

    ...Dunno if I even care anymore.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    I care.

    I'm getting a phone monday that can finally run anything on the google store. I'll be picking it up. Hopefully it means IV and whatever else comes too eventually.

    I'd love to eventually see FFT show up, port quality be damned.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    20$ is a lot for a phone game.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    I regularly pay $60 for games. A game is a game is a game.

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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    I regularly pay $60 for games. A game is a game is a game.

    Unless it's on a phone where 99 cents is common.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    then don't buy it. If the game has the value for the money I don't care whether other shit games are $.99. I know, for instance, that FFIV is well worth what they're charging.

    Angry Birds non-game this is not.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    I... I can't even think of the last time I paid 60$ for a game. Even brand new games end up being 35$ or something on newegg a week after they come out. Or if its a PC game, two weeks before they come out.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    I'm not entirely sure what your point is. You spend money differently than me, and probably other people? Great.

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  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Grove wrote: »
    I'd also throw in that I find the XIII character designs to be bland and boring. Granted I know that Square can go crazy at times with over the top characters, but XIII, to me, is so unremarkable from just the art aspect.

    I will say this for the character designs. I liked how that, even when dressed very differently, the Cocoon characters all had recognisably 'modern' clothes and Fang and Vanille wore vaguely 'tribal' outfits. I mean, it was a nice visual hint that Fang and Vanille are Not From Around Here - or would have been if they hadn't been incredibly obvious about it everywhere else.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    then don't buy it. If the game has the value for the money I don't care whether other shit games are $.99. I know, for instance, that FFIV is well worth what they're charging.

    Angry Birds non-game this is not.

    The true comedy is when you realize that nobody would bat an eye spending 20 bucks for Dimensions if it were a DS game.

    This line of thinking is precisely why the mobile market will never ever be a danger to the traditional handheld.

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  • JurgJurg In a TeacupRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    FFXIII did have really crappy villains in general. At no point were they even remotely menacing, or, barring that, comical. And the game sets them up so much! Come on. You have a world that wants you dead, forced exterminations, etc. It is really not hard to create someone- anyone- who is actually scary in that setting. But no. They dropped the ball. Anyone who doesn't die completely unceremoniously is bland to the point that they had to try to get that bland.

    One of them was a fun boss battle, at least.

    Jurg on
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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    I'm not entirely sure what your point is. You spend money differently than me, and probably other people? Great.

    The exact and point you were making when you posted your "omg I waste 60$" post. Gee golly, it's almost like people besides yourself make posts on a forum. Who would have guessed it.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    EDIT: You know what, nevermind; your goosery isn't worth responding to.

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  • WydrionWydrion Registered User regular
    Do I have to inadvertently derail this thread into Dragon Quest so everyone has no choice but to get along again?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea4Tjie4ZiM

    'Cause I'll fucking do it.

    physi_marc
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Apparently Noel is hidden in that Lightning Returns trailer;
    noeld.png

    tumblr_lygq0zZC7b1qi4v1to1_500.png

    Dead ringer for his default costume's arm string stuff.

    Oh brilliant
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    man that's not what any arms i've ever seen look like

  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    Wydrion wrote: »
    Do I have to inadvertently derail this thread into Dragon Quest so everyone has no choice but to get along again?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea4Tjie4ZiM

    'Cause I'll fucking do it.

    I can get behind this.

    Deeply amused that Noel is hidden in the trailer, I suppose I should be thankful that he's there at all.

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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Noel is from 700 years in the future, and Lightning Returns takes place hundreds of years in the future. Not a huge stretch.

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  • WydrionWydrion Registered User regular
    Did we for some reason assume he wouldn't be involved at all? We know the game came out of left field but I figured they'd try to reconcile the ending of XIII-2 at least.

  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    I'm expecting literally nothing from 13-3 and how they promote it, given how Lightning was all over 13-2's trailers and material up to and including the box art, and she is barely in that game.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    If I recall right, the general setting is that with time gone kablooy, nobody really ages or dies anymore. And pretty much all major players, including Noel and Hope were still standing at the end. It's basically
    Serah

    that's the wildcard here.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Wydrion wrote: »
    Do I have to inadvertently derail this thread into Dragon Quest so everyone has no choice but to get along again?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea4Tjie4ZiM

    'Cause I'll fucking do it.

    I don't know if I love or hate that Gabo rides around on a wolf all the time.

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  • WydrionWydrion Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Wydrion wrote: »
    Do I have to inadvertently derail this thread into Dragon Quest so everyone has no choice but to get along again?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea4Tjie4ZiM

    'Cause I'll fucking do it.

    I don't know if I love or hate that Gabo rides around on a wolf all the time.

    I personally love it. The wolf is integral to his story, and it isn't like he ever learns to speak or anything, so it's like his 'assistant'. And I assume we'll see the outfits affect the wolf. (I am so giddy about the fact that it looks like every class has its own outfit!)

    I'm also wondering how they'll handle the juggling of your fifth party member, because I remember it being a huge pain in the ass on the Playstation. Maribelle would basically leave the party for good in favor of Melvin.

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