Gonna be interesting to see the next GSL, overall protoss seems to be headed to a new slump. 1 protoss in top 8 TSL, who is likely to lose, and no real success at IEM either.
I'm guessing we're gonna see a similar break in GSL fortunes with protoss that we saw after the last win, unless hots is actually released at some point.
Protoss are doing absolutely fine in Korea though? They are actually ahead in the PvZ and PvT winrates, have great GSL representation, and are doing well in teamleagues. If anything Terran will be struggling in the next GSL.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
edited August 2012
How in the hell is hots likely to change anything for the better. Toss are getting shit all in terms of good new units. Zergs are getting a hard(er) counter to colossus.
Eh, protoss did fine last GSL, but it usually swings back and forth. And it certainly seems zergs have figured out the last batch of protoss allins, and are finally learning to spread their broodlords. And well, terrans are figuring out ghosts are actually really good, and marauders give no fucks about storms, so they have a chance lategame. Assuming other korean terrans have seen how Taeja has dismantled a lot of protosses protoss lategame it won't be long before that swings as well.
MC deserved to lose this game though, letting those lings in was really bad. Of course, there is no equivalent punishing move for protoss to do, but that is the reason they are and will remain the weakest race. No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Jaziek, hots will mean they might, just might do a big rework on protoss in general, which is what is needed.
The mothership core is honestly the most powerful thing that Protoss are getting in the expansion. The ability to shut down most early aggression along with a recall ability is really good, and the Oracle is looking pretty strong too. Tempest is bad though, so hopefully that is changed.
Mothership core is actually interesting, so is the oracle. Armywise protoss continue to be shafted though. But that's what betas are for, and hopefully they realize they just have to overhaul most of the protoss army and make it more fun, and less deathball or die.
Which might also make lategame PvZ about something else than "did your vortex land?" you win. Otherwise you lose.
The mothership core is honestly the most powerful thing that Protoss are getting in the expansion. The ability to shut down most early aggression along with a recall ability is really good, and the Oracle is looking pretty strong too. Tempest is bad though, so hopefully that is changed.
Smart use of recall will define Protoss in Heart of the Swarm. Such a powerful ability if used properly.
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No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Grass is greener on the other side of the fence, eh.
Oh yes. But protoss does not have anything that can easily do a lot of economic damage for a low cost. A warp prism warping in 15 zealots can do damage, but that's a lot of money that's easily denied by running away from it. And well, storm drops are also denied by moving workers, since storm doesn't do that much damage any more.
And recall is pretty much the most awesome thing they add, pity they bind it to nexuses instead of giving back arbiters though, as they would be even more fun.
Mothership core is actually interesting, so is the oracle. Armywise protoss continue to be shafted though. But that's what betas are for, and hopefully they realize they just have to overhaul most of the protoss army and make it more fun, and less deathball or die.
Which might also make lategame PvZ about something else than "did your vortex land?" you win. Otherwise you lose.
Deathball-centric play is getting phased out already in WoL as Protoss learn the power of warp prisms and zealot/DT harass against an immobile infestor/BL army. Lots of games in recent memory have featured Protoss cutting the economic legs out from late-game Zerg with harassment and then chipping out the Zerg's deathball army.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
They won't rework protoss, because as has been said before in this thread, protoss is the "my first RTS" race for babies. It has easy mechanics. Big strong units that cost more, but are stronger, and require less micro to be effective.
Zealot/dt harass is weak as hell though, seeing as how a few spines/spores easily deny it unless you invest really really heavily. Can you give examples of recent games protoss have not won trough dumb gimmick builds (2/3 base allin, lucky vortex)?
The reason most games end with those things is that protoss simply does not have other options that are not easily denied.
No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Grass is greener on the other side of the fence, eh.
Oh yes. But protoss does not have anything that can easily do a lot of economic damage for a low cost. A warp prism warping in 15 zealots can do damage, but that's a lot of money that's easily denied by running away from it. And well, storm drops are also denied by moving workers, since storm doesn't do that much damage any more.
And recall is pretty much the most awesome thing they add, pity they bind it to nexuses instead of giving back arbiters though, as they would be even more fun.
Greater spires, hives, and spawning pools can't run away. Besides, the same logic applies to ling runbys and hellions. They can be stopped if your opponent dedicates time and resources to them. But that's how all harassment should be.
(And p.s., unless you see the warp prism coming and pre-emptively move your workers, storm drops will easily destroy a mineral line. Moreso than a ling or hellion runby that can be stopped with simcity.)
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No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Grass is greener on the other side of the fence, eh.
Oh yes. But protoss does not have anything that can easily do a lot of economic damage for a low cost. A warp prism warping in 15 zealots can do damage, but that's a lot of money that's easily denied by running away from it. And well, storm drops are also denied by moving workers, since storm doesn't do that much damage any more.
And recall is pretty much the most awesome thing they add, pity they bind it to nexuses instead of giving back arbiters though, as they would be even more fun.
Everyone has things like that, even if you don't see it. As a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head example, protoss can literally make a base impossible to save with a Tier 1 unit (Sentry) FFing the ramp.
Anything involving forcefielding the ramp is usually a silly gimmick allin, which is the entire problem with the race. And kambing, my argument would be that the protoss harassment is more expensive, and easier to stop. But opinions etc, although the way pros play would argue my point for me. People are not refuing to harass/multitask because they don't want to, they don't because it doesn't reliably work.
Eh, protoss did fine last GSL, but it usually swings back and forth. And it certainly seems zergs have figured out the last batch of protoss allins, and are finally learning to spread their broodlords. And well, terrans are figuring out ghosts are actually really good, and marauders give no fucks about storms, so they have a chance lategame. Assuming other korean terrans have seen how Taeja has dismantled a lot of protosses protoss lategame it won't be long before that swings as well.
MC deserved to lose this game though, letting those lings in was really bad. Of course, there is no equivalent punishing move for protoss to do, but that is the reason they are and will remain the weakest race. No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Jaziek, hots will mean they might, just might do a big rework on protoss in general, which is what is needed.
So, even though Protoss are doing fine, you think they'll start slumping because...Taeja is doing well against Protoss? Zerg play has barely changed in the last month or two, it's not like Zerg are magically splitting their broodlords all of a sudden and holding all-ins with no trouble. I'm really not sure what you're basing this on. Your post really matches your avatar though, so +10 points if that is intentional.
Zealot/dt harass is weak as hell though, seeing as how a few spines/spores easily deny it unless you invest really really heavily. Can you give examples of recent games protoss have not won trough dumb gimmick builds (2/3 base allin, lucky vortex)?
The reason most games end with those things is that protoss simply does not have other options that are not easily denied.
All harassment is like that though. I put down 3 spines and you drop a medivac/marine into it, I clean it up. You drop 2 medivac/marines, all of a sudden the investment I put into static defense is quickly shutdown. Same principle applies to zealot/dt, lings, mutas, or any other form of harassment. And the same argument applies: if you threaten harassment and force static defense, that's a good play.
I can't cite any recent examples since I've been without stream-able Internet for the last few weeks. I'll let @Meeks cover my ass in the examples department, but I'm confident they exist.
And I don't consider any of that shit gimmick builds. That's how the damn game is. That would be like me complaining that Zerg is weak because they can only win through ling/roach or BL/infestor tech.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
Zergs should start (as some already have done) building duplicate tech for when harass actually becomes a problem.
"waaaah waaah he sniped my pool!!"
I guess 200 minerals is just WAY too much to be investing in the mid-late game for a second pool to stop that from being an issue then.
I actually can't think of any games off the top of my head, because all the PvZs I have watched lately don't go to the lategame. It is either 2base all-in or 3base all-in without fail. 3base Colossus all-in is really popular in Korea right now because of how difficult it is to stop.
Eh, protoss did fine last GSL, but it usually swings back and forth. And it certainly seems zergs have figured out the last batch of protoss allins, and are finally learning to spread their broodlords. And well, terrans are figuring out ghosts are actually really good, and marauders give no fucks about storms, so they have a chance lategame. Assuming other korean terrans have seen how Taeja has dismantled a lot of protosses protoss lategame it won't be long before that swings as well.
MC deserved to lose this game though, letting those lings in was really bad. Of course, there is no equivalent punishing move for protoss to do, but that is the reason they are and will remain the weakest race. No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Jaziek, hots will mean they might, just might do a big rework on protoss in general, which is what is needed.
So, even though Protoss are doing fine, you think they'll start slumping because...Taeja is doing well against Protoss? Zerg play has barely changed in the last month or two, it's not like Zerg are magically splitting their broodlords all of a sudden and holding all-ins with no trouble. I'm really not sure what you're basing this on. Your post really matches your avatar though, so +10 points if that is intentional.
I base it on recent foreign tournaments actually, which is why I originally said it would be interesting to see the next GSL. Zergs have just become better at stopping protoss allins in general, although it might just be that I've seen a fair few games with stargate play recently, which hasn't been effective in forever. And well, Taejas play against lategame protoss is pretty similar to the situation where stephano was destroying ZvP, which then spread to other players.
I am very much inclined to believe protoss the weakest race though, seeing as how they have consistently been the weakest performer when it comes to big tournaments, even when zerg was considered the weakest overall.
Frozenzen on
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
a lot of days I wish people that didn't play the game wouldn't post anything related to balance or game theory
Anything involving forcefielding the ramp is usually a silly gimmick allin, which is the entire problem with the race. And kambing, my argument would be that the protoss harassment is more expensive, and easier to stop. But opinions etc, although the way pros play would argue my point for me. People are not refuing to harass/multitask because they don't want to, they don't because it doesn't reliably work.
Protoss have more expensive units. Protoss harassment is as hard to stop as any other race's harassment options. No, that doesn't need to be changed because the races are not all equal.
Pros do not harass/multitask because they can get results with what they are doing now. Just like how Terrans just 1/2-base all-ined every game at release. It wasn't because pros were incapable of harassment or didn't realize it existed; it's because they (naturally) chose the path of least resistance which was ending games quickly with all-ins.
Same thing is currently happening with Protoss. Deathball styles in ZvP are getting shaken up because Zerg can make a deathball of its own now. Protoss is now exploring the power of zealot/DT/HT harassment in response.
This is why whining about balance is stupid. Shit tends to fix itself over time as people are forced to figure stuff out. That's what makes Starcraft interesting, not waiting for an xpac to magically "fix the game" (which it won't).
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hero vs soulkey in wcs kr were some really good zvps, hero doing his cool late-game harrassment + actually winning with late-game sg play
there have been some other games like that recently, can't think of anything though
late-game play can't be talked about in a vacuum, what led up to it is incredibly important, there is a world of difference between bl/infestor vs someone who tried earlysg play or some sort of 2base timing, or a toss that safely took a third
I actually can't think of any games off the top of my head, because all the PvZs I have watched lately don't go to the lategame. It is either 2base all-in or 3base all-in without fail. 3base Colossus all-in is really popular in Korea right now because of how difficult it is to stop.
That's fair. That's probably my bias then. I bucket 2-3 base all-ins as "should've scouted earlier, need to figure out timings". The games where we go past that and protoss is multi-prong harassing down the zerg stick out in my mind as the interesting games.
Kambing on
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They won't rework protoss, because as has been said before in this thread, protoss is the "my first RTS" race for babies. It has easy mechanics. Big strong units that cost more, but are stronger, and require less micro to be effective.
I'm surprised to hear this, but maybe it's just cause I'm a protoss player. Do others feel this way about toss too?
In BW, toss definitely used less micro and mechanics than terran and zerg. In SC2 though, I would say each race has similar levels of mechanics and micro, except different styles of micro.
PvT and PvZ being spell intensive micro, TvP and TvZ being army positioning intensive micro, and ZvP and ZvT being army surround intensive micro. Dunno, just made those terms up now.
Also, I don't see where this big strong units that cost more comes from, perhaps in the first tier of units, but otherwise, I don't see this.
Imo, whenever someone says that with respect to SC2, it's definitely "grass is greener"-style arguments for me. All three races in all three matches have micro and mechanical concerns that even pros today can't accomplish. So, there is no easy race. There's no race that is limited by what it can do with its mechanics or strategy.
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+1
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Well, the reason 99% of all good terrans are korean, is that terrans potentially get the most out of mechanics and micro in my mind.
But noone is even close to playing a perfect game yet, so potential skill ceilings don't really matter at the moment now anyway. Much like it ended up in SC1.
Well, the reason 99% of all good terrans are korean, is that terrans potentially get the most out of mechanics and micro in my mind.
But noone is even close to playing a perfect game yet, so potential skill ceilings don't really matter at the moment now anyway. Much like it ended up in SC1.
I used to think that, but really I think it was just bandwagoning off of the success of the diversity of builds that were apparent to Terrans early in the game's lifetime. That early bandwagoning blossomed into further diversity more than the other two races that we're only catching up to now.
For example, we're only now seeing how powerful quick creep spread is in ZvT and ZvP and every pro is relatively lackluster in how they go about it. And no one does it in the optimal way yet (OL's leading single creep tumor fronts), so we haven't even seen how bad it can get yet.
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Why not restrict it to purely masters players then? Below that it's just all about building more mans anyways.
He is referring to me kime.
because no one who plays the game at any level would say dt harass is weak
Never won a game with DTs, even when I played. And well, it worked against me maybe 1 in 5 times or so. And I can't remember the last time a DT shrine actually was a positive thing in a game. Between the increible expense of getting them, and the fact that they rely on your opponent to do a few mistakes in a row to actually go even, and even more to actually be a net positive. It does have a niche in lategame PvZ if the zerg refuses to spine up expansions though I suppose.
Well, it shows up now and then in games I see. It hasn't worked a single time I can recall, since it needs to do absurd damage to actually pay off, as well as being an essentially dead end tech path before you have 3 or more bases.
Why not restrict it to purely masters players then? Below that it's just all about building more mans anyways.
He is referring to me kime.
because no one who plays the game at any level would say dt harass is weak
Never won a game with DTs, even when I played. And well, it worked against me maybe 1 in 5 times or so. And I can't remember the last time a DT shrine actually was a positive thing in a game. Between the increible expense of getting them, and the fact that they rely on your opponent to do a few mistakes in a row to actually go even, and even more to actually be a net positive. It does have a niche in lategame PvZ if the zerg refuses to spine up expansions though I suppose.
DT rushing is silly because zerg can scout them. Getting DTs as a transition unit into the late game is almost standard. At that point, zergs are frequently lacking spores at their bases since there was no early DT harassment. Worse yet, zergs almost never preemptively plant spores/overseers around morphing 4th/5th/6th bases, so DTs delay the expansions (which in the case of the 4th is critical to suffocate infestor/BL tech) and keep the zerg army back.
And beyond this, there's simply the ability to warp in some large number of DTs in your opponents base and snipe valuable tech with warp prisms.
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I haven't seen DT harass in PvZ in...what feels like months. And even longer for PvT.
The one game I saw recently was Grubby's throwaway game vs. I-forget-who that he should've lost. But he used DTs there to deny bases in the late game which was absolutely critical. I feel like many protoss do this as they are bracing for BL tech to slow zerg down (as long as they aren't going for an all-in, of course).
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I'm guessing we're gonna see a similar break in GSL fortunes with protoss that we saw after the last win, unless hots is actually released at some point.
MC deserved to lose this game though, letting those lings in was really bad. Of course, there is no equivalent punishing move for protoss to do, but that is the reason they are and will remain the weakest race. No low risk, high reward plays like ling runbys or hellions.
Jaziek, hots will mean they might, just might do a big rework on protoss in general, which is what is needed.
Grass is greener on the other side of the fence, eh.
Which might also make lategame PvZ about something else than "did your vortex land?" you win. Otherwise you lose.
"MC, despite this incredible angle, just can't get a good angle!"
*rolls eyes*
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Smart use of recall will define Protoss in Heart of the Swarm. Such a powerful ability if used properly.
Oh yes. But protoss does not have anything that can easily do a lot of economic damage for a low cost. A warp prism warping in 15 zealots can do damage, but that's a lot of money that's easily denied by running away from it. And well, storm drops are also denied by moving workers, since storm doesn't do that much damage any more.
And recall is pretty much the most awesome thing they add, pity they bind it to nexuses instead of giving back arbiters though, as they would be even more fun.
Deathball-centric play is getting phased out already in WoL as Protoss learn the power of warp prisms and zealot/DT harass against an immobile infestor/BL army. Lots of games in recent memory have featured Protoss cutting the economic legs out from late-game Zerg with harassment and then chipping out the Zerg's deathball army.
The reason most games end with those things is that protoss simply does not have other options that are not easily denied.
Greater spires, hives, and spawning pools can't run away. Besides, the same logic applies to ling runbys and hellions. They can be stopped if your opponent dedicates time and resources to them. But that's how all harassment should be.
(And p.s., unless you see the warp prism coming and pre-emptively move your workers, storm drops will easily destroy a mineral line. Moreso than a ling or hellion runby that can be stopped with simcity.)
Everyone has things like that, even if you don't see it. As a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head example, protoss can literally make a base impossible to save with a Tier 1 unit (Sentry) FFing the ramp.
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So, even though Protoss are doing fine, you think they'll start slumping because...Taeja is doing well against Protoss? Zerg play has barely changed in the last month or two, it's not like Zerg are magically splitting their broodlords all of a sudden and holding all-ins with no trouble. I'm really not sure what you're basing this on. Your post really matches your avatar though, so +10 points if that is intentional.
All harassment is like that though. I put down 3 spines and you drop a medivac/marine into it, I clean it up. You drop 2 medivac/marines, all of a sudden the investment I put into static defense is quickly shutdown. Same principle applies to zealot/dt, lings, mutas, or any other form of harassment. And the same argument applies: if you threaten harassment and force static defense, that's a good play.
I can't cite any recent examples since I've been without stream-able Internet for the last few weeks. I'll let @Meeks cover my ass in the examples department, but I'm confident they exist.
And I don't consider any of that shit gimmick builds. That's how the damn game is. That would be like me complaining that Zerg is weak because they can only win through ling/roach or BL/infestor tech.
"waaaah waaah he sniped my pool!!"
I guess 200 minerals is just WAY too much to be investing in the mid-late game for a second pool to stop that from being an issue then.
I base it on recent foreign tournaments actually, which is why I originally said it would be interesting to see the next GSL. Zergs have just become better at stopping protoss allins in general, although it might just be that I've seen a fair few games with stargate play recently, which hasn't been effective in forever. And well, Taejas play against lategame protoss is pretty similar to the situation where stephano was destroying ZvP, which then spread to other players.
I am very much inclined to believe protoss the weakest race though, seeing as how they have consistently been the weakest performer when it comes to big tournaments, even when zerg was considered the weakest overall.
Protoss have more expensive units. Protoss harassment is as hard to stop as any other race's harassment options. No, that doesn't need to be changed because the races are not all equal.
Pros do not harass/multitask because they can get results with what they are doing now. Just like how Terrans just 1/2-base all-ined every game at release. It wasn't because pros were incapable of harassment or didn't realize it existed; it's because they (naturally) chose the path of least resistance which was ending games quickly with all-ins.
Same thing is currently happening with Protoss. Deathball styles in ZvP are getting shaken up because Zerg can make a deathball of its own now. Protoss is now exploring the power of zealot/DT/HT harassment in response.
This is why whining about balance is stupid. Shit tends to fix itself over time as people are forced to figure stuff out. That's what makes Starcraft interesting, not waiting for an xpac to magically "fix the game" (which it won't).
Referring to...?
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He is referring to me kime.
there have been some other games like that recently, can't think of anything though
late-game play can't be talked about in a vacuum, what led up to it is incredibly important, there is a world of difference between bl/infestor vs someone who tried earlysg play or some sort of 2base timing, or a toss that safely took a third
That's fair. That's probably my bias then. I bucket 2-3 base all-ins as "should've scouted earlier, need to figure out timings". The games where we go past that and protoss is multi-prong harassing down the zerg stick out in my mind as the interesting games.
Ah OK. 'cause I don't play 1v1 much anymore, so just wanted to make sure :P
I like Zerg, but I really hope it doesn't become 4 Zergs in the final rounds...
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Imo, whenever someone says that with respect to SC2, it's definitely "grass is greener"-style arguments for me. All three races in all three matches have micro and mechanical concerns that even pros today can't accomplish. So, there is no easy race. There's no race that is limited by what it can do with its mechanics or strategy.
because no one who plays the game at any level would say dt harass is weak
But noone is even close to playing a perfect game yet, so potential skill ceilings don't really matter at the moment now anyway. Much like it ended up in SC1.
I used to think that, but really I think it was just bandwagoning off of the success of the diversity of builds that were apparent to Terrans early in the game's lifetime. That early bandwagoning blossomed into further diversity more than the other two races that we're only catching up to now.
For example, we're only now seeing how powerful quick creep spread is in ZvT and ZvP and every pro is relatively lackluster in how they go about it. And no one does it in the optimal way yet (OL's leading single creep tumor fronts), so we haven't even seen how bad it can get yet.
Never won a game with DTs, even when I played. And well, it worked against me maybe 1 in 5 times or so. And I can't remember the last time a DT shrine actually was a positive thing in a game. Between the increible expense of getting them, and the fact that they rely on your opponent to do a few mistakes in a row to actually go even, and even more to actually be a net positive. It does have a niche in lategame PvZ if the zerg refuses to spine up expansions though I suppose.
DT rushing is silly because zerg can scout them. Getting DTs as a transition unit into the late game is almost standard. At that point, zergs are frequently lacking spores at their bases since there was no early DT harassment. Worse yet, zergs almost never preemptively plant spores/overseers around morphing 4th/5th/6th bases, so DTs delay the expansions (which in the case of the 4th is critical to suffocate infestor/BL tech) and keep the zerg army back.
And beyond this, there's simply the ability to warp in some large number of DTs in your opponents base and snipe valuable tech with warp prisms.
The one game I saw recently was Grubby's throwaway game vs. I-forget-who that he should've lost. But he used DTs there to deny bases in the late game which was absolutely critical. I feel like many protoss do this as they are bracing for BL tech to slow zerg down (as long as they aren't going for an all-in, of course).