Never said I was going to say anything to the kids or my sister, thread is just about how to deal with it personally, which I have a much better idea of now, thanks.
Doesn't change that indoctrinating kids is wrong.
Are you wanting advice on how to handle this situation? Or wanting to argue WHY you believe that your hypothetical niece or nephew shouldn't be baptized?
Just stay out of it.
I think it's incredibly weird that you're already thinking about this considering it's based on events that haven't happened yet, and probably won't for years.
We are getting into debate and discourse territory here, but baptism is a beginning of a religious upbringing, and the notion that somebody "chooses" confirmation at the age at 12 or 13 having been told all their life that they are of a particular religion, when confirmation is just presented as something that happens, rather as a choice, is bull.
I couldn't care less WHAT people believe. As long as they choose it for themselves, when they are adults, and don't seek to impose it on anybody else, especially children.
Pretty much the whole of parenting is imposing a set of beliefs and values on your kid.
It is the responsibility of the parents to decide what those beliefs and values are.
I disagree strongly with this. Children should be thought HOW to think, not WHAT to think. They should be equipped with the skills to make the right choices in the circumstances that face them. Beliefs and values are not the same thing, by the way.
Also find it very strange that people think that the child doesn't know what is going on makes baptism A OK. That makes it WORSE.
I really sympathize with you on the fact that kids shouldn't be told what to think, I do. But regarding baptism, literally all that's happening is a kid is getting water poured on them and somebody saying that means he's in the church now. That doesn't mean that s/he ever actually gets TAUGHT anything that you would rather s/he not be taught. It's just a ceremony. It's the part that usually comes AFTER the baptism, taking the kid to church when s/he can understand what's being taught, that gets into the whole "what to think" territory.
And yeah, it's a bit early to worry about this if you have no idea whether your sister is going to do any of this or not. Getting married in a church doesn't tell you anything about what your sister and her husband-to-be believe, either, because I know plenty of atheists that have gotten married with religious overtones due to family wanting it to happen. Maybe they believe their kid has the right to decide about religion on their own rather than just being raised in what they believe (or don't). Which would be awesome.
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wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
edited August 2012
*sigh* How many times do I have to repeat that I have no intention of interfering directly? It is not theoretical, it is something that is very likely in the near future, barring them having problems having kids, which I certainly wouldn't wish on them.
Advice has largely been handled, we are veering into debate and discourse territory now. Thread over. Thanks to those who gave thoughtful/helpful responses. Apologies for any offence caused.
I was considering part of my wedding present to them to be that 'secular bible' book, but given the responses I've gotten in this thread I don't know if PAers will think that's the equivalent of suicide bombing the wedding or something.
I just want to add . . . don't do this. It's tacky.
EDIT: For those of you that keep jumping the gun on this thread. This is not about me interfering with how my sister raises her kids. This is about me personally deciding if I would attend any religious ceremonies in the upbringing of those kids, and if I didn't go, how I would word my refusal in the politest ways possible.
....
Anyway. Help/Advice?
Getting back on topic a bit, lets try to answer your question, which is a good one. Religion can be tricky to talk about with others.
Here's my background. My grandparents were very Christian (church every Sunday and my grandma played to piano/organ every other sunday during the service). My parents, while respectful, did things at major holidays but not every weekend. For myself, until I was 12-15, I was also going to these major events but after a certain point, I stopped going.
How was this brought up? my parents and grandparents and I sat down and talked. My grandma was concerned more with myself losing my faith and while I wouldn't call myself aethiest, I don't identify with any religion.
To your sister (even though I don't know your relationship) I would say a lot of almost what your question was.
"Sis, I'm personally conflicted with [insert religious ceremony here] and I'm not sure I would be confortable attending. Am I really needed? Is that ok to skip?"
It starts the communication lines. For a babtism, she might want to do it more for ceremony rather than reality. "I know it's just some water on my kids head but it's tradition and I want them to be a part of it".
I'll also say this: My part of my family are not catholic, but other parts are, as well as friends families. Any religious event wasn't a "Hey, go religion!" event, it was a gathering of friends and family. You can always refuse communion.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
OP, please do not make threads here if you cannot accept the reasonably-offered advice you are getting (and yes it is advice and yes it is sound) with some small measure of grace. No one, not one person, has jumped down your throat. You are being terribly defensive about extremely little, and I recommend you get that checked out.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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Are you wanting advice on how to handle this situation? Or wanting to argue WHY you believe that your hypothetical niece or nephew shouldn't be baptized?
Just stay out of it.
I think it's incredibly weird that you're already thinking about this considering it's based on events that haven't happened yet, and probably won't for years.
That'd be why I listed them separately. Please keep condescending, though.
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I really sympathize with you on the fact that kids shouldn't be told what to think, I do. But regarding baptism, literally all that's happening is a kid is getting water poured on them and somebody saying that means he's in the church now. That doesn't mean that s/he ever actually gets TAUGHT anything that you would rather s/he not be taught. It's just a ceremony. It's the part that usually comes AFTER the baptism, taking the kid to church when s/he can understand what's being taught, that gets into the whole "what to think" territory.
And yeah, it's a bit early to worry about this if you have no idea whether your sister is going to do any of this or not. Getting married in a church doesn't tell you anything about what your sister and her husband-to-be believe, either, because I know plenty of atheists that have gotten married with religious overtones due to family wanting it to happen. Maybe they believe their kid has the right to decide about religion on their own rather than just being raised in what they believe (or don't). Which would be awesome.
Advice has largely been handled, we are veering into debate and discourse territory now. Thread over. Thanks to those who gave thoughtful/helpful responses. Apologies for any offence caused.
My bad. Just seems to be a common presumption.
I just want to add . . . don't do this. It's tacky.
Getting back on topic a bit, lets try to answer your question, which is a good one. Religion can be tricky to talk about with others.
Here's my background. My grandparents were very Christian (church every Sunday and my grandma played to piano/organ every other sunday during the service). My parents, while respectful, did things at major holidays but not every weekend. For myself, until I was 12-15, I was also going to these major events but after a certain point, I stopped going.
How was this brought up? my parents and grandparents and I sat down and talked. My grandma was concerned more with myself losing my faith and while I wouldn't call myself aethiest, I don't identify with any religion.
To your sister (even though I don't know your relationship) I would say a lot of almost what your question was.
"Sis, I'm personally conflicted with [insert religious ceremony here] and I'm not sure I would be confortable attending. Am I really needed? Is that ok to skip?"
It starts the communication lines. For a babtism, she might want to do it more for ceremony rather than reality. "I know it's just some water on my kids head but it's tradition and I want them to be a part of it".