PAving Grounds tomorrow will proceed as usual. 5P/8E.
However, Hargaad will not be participating, and I will not be able to join Ventrilo. I will be conducting drafting strictly from the "Painhouse" LoL chat channel.
Keep in mind: not tomorrow, but the week after, we will begin joining LoL chat channel "PAving Grounds" for PAving Grounds drafting.
Everything else will proceed as usual. I will set up the spreadsheet, then I must disappear.
I ask that captains take screenshots of the end-game results so I can update the spreadsheet win/loss records.
If you haven't already, I request that all who participate read the second post on page 1 on here.
Edit: Mostly, I need captains to understand that there's a small effort in getting their team to talk about who they think the enemy MVP is after each game. Then, I need teams to discuss who their own MVP is based on all of their games played that week. I prefer you don't do it publicly. Captains need to message me with their team's votes for MVP either on LoL, or on here...I don't care, just get them to me, plz.
It is not that people die in 2 shots, its that people die before you make up the damage disadvantage you start with.
Its easiest to see with Ashe, with IE and LW she will do about 418 damage against a 100 armor target on a crit. With IE and BC about 345. The second hit for the LW will do more damage than the cleaver. The third hit for the LW will still do more damage than the cleaver.
The cleaver starts doing more damage on the fourth hit[which will get there sooner] but it still has to make up the 100 odd damage advantage that the LW started with.
And 100 armor is a low value for armor if your carry has 7k gold.
Lets examine for instance Graves at level 10. IE+LW vs IE + PD. Lets assume 100 armor targets
IE,LW,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~240
Graves q damage: 274 up to 465 for point blank
Graves r damage: 409 + 299 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage 235
No Quickdraw DPS:: 232
Quickdraw DPS:: 322
IE,PD,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~200
Graves q damage: 216 up to 368 point blank
Graves r damage: 287 + 211 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage: 203
No Quickdraw DPS:: 272 [I.E. Expected Attack Damage x attacks/second]
Quickdraw DPS:: 349
This implies that if Graves AA, q, AA's he will have a minimum 122 damage "lead" on the PD Graves. PD graves has 40 more DPS and so has to do damage for 3 seconds in order to make up the lead.
On the top end of this burst scale, Graves e's in and gets a full q for again about a 130 damage lead[assuming e,q,AA instead of e,AA,q,AA to ensure the full buckshot goes off]. Since quickdraw is on the PD outdps's the LW by 27 which makes up the difference in 4.7 seconds.
If graves really wants something dead. The AA,q,R burst damage difference is 1100 damage burst for LW graves and 858 for PD graves. A difference of 242 damage!
Note all numbers here are post armor.
The disadvantage is run speed. Maybe buy zeal before the LW.
It is not that people die in 2 shots, its that people die before you make up the damage disadvantage you start with.
Its easiest to see with Ashe, with IE and LW she will do about 418 damage against a 100 armor target on a crit. With IE and BC about 345. The second hit for the LW will do more damage than the cleaver. The third hit for the LW will still do more damage than the cleaver.
The cleaver starts doing more damage on the fourth hit[which will get there sooner] but it still has to make up the 100 odd damage advantage that the LW started with.
And 100 armor is a low value for armor if your carry has 7k gold.
Lets examine for instance Graves at level 10. IE+LW vs IE + PD. Lets assume 100 armor targets
IE,LW,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~240
Graves q damage: 274 up to 465 for point blank
Graves r damage: 409 + 299 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage 235
No Quickdraw DPS:: 232
Quickdraw DPS:: 322
IE,PD,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~200
Graves q damage: 216 up to 368 point blank
Graves r damage: 287 + 211 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage: 203
No Quickdraw DPS:: 272 [I.E. Expected Attack Damage x attacks/second]
Quickdraw DPS:: 349
This implies that if Graves AA, q, AA's he will have a minimum 122 damage "lead" on the PD Graves. PD graves has 40 more DPS and so has to do damage for 3 seconds in order to make up the lead.
On the top end of this burst scale, Graves e's in and gets a full q for again about a 130 damage lead[assuming e,q,AA instead of e,AA,q,AA to ensure the full buckshot goes off]. Since quickdraw is on the PD outdps's the LW by 27 which makes up the difference in 4.7 seconds.
If graves really wants something dead. The AA,q,R burst damage difference is 1100 damage burst for LW graves and 858 for PD graves. A difference of 242 damage!
Note all numbers here are post armor.
The disadvantage is run speed. Maybe buy zeal before the LW.
The real disadvantage is if Graves wants Ashe dead. Ashe has a full 75 auto-attack range on Graves, and will kite the fuck out of him with her Q. (and her W!)
Unfortunately for Ashe, Graves has his dash which has a handful second CD, and his Q and R are long range, and his smoke screen slows her too. Equally fed, Graves will win a duel with an Ashe trying to kite him.
Unfortunately for Ashe, Graves has his dash which has a handful second CD, and his Q and R are long range, and his smoke screen slows her too. Equally fed, Graves will win a duel with an Ashe trying to kite him.
Eh, that's more fiction than fact. Assuming we use our special blinders that block out all rational situations as most people have been doing on here lately, I'm going to assume Ashe is flawless and uses her W before Graves uses his dash or slow, then turning to run herself.
Sure, Graves has a long-range ult. Surprise! Ashe has a better ult.
Ashe simply has better poke, and beats Graves more handily than Paul Reubens at a skin-flick theater. (It was a good movie, iirc.) 8-|
Yeah, no. Even if you assume Ashe is at 600 range to begin with, Graves Dash closes enough distance he's going to get several autos off, plus his buckshot and ult, which is consequently enough to kill her outright. If Ashe was anything approaching a "counter" to Graves, you might see that evidence at the champ select screen, but it's just not true.
Graves has ult, but Ashe has flash.
Only people say it's not true. Those people are wrong. *Edit: Meaning, people quote incorrect facts. Vids or it isn't true.
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Most Graves vs Ashe lanes I see involve Graves approaching from within his creepline, so Ashe can't hit creeps without being in Quickdraw range and her Volley won't really hit him unless he approaches first.
However it is somewhat of an even fight and the supports will make or break that lane matchup more than anything.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Most Graves vs Ashe lanes I see involve Graves approaching from within his creepline, so Ashe can't hit creeps without being in Quickdraw range and her Volley won't really hit him unless he approaches first.
However it is somewhat of an even fight and the supports will make or break that lane matchup more than anything.
This, I can agree with. There is no assumption that Ashe has no abilities, and stands there like a tree, waiting to yell, "TIMBERRRRRRRR!"
Edit: Don't get me wrong. I disagree with everybody that tries to use numbers. Using numbers means you assume that a stick is playing these characters.
Discussing numbers that AI use means nothing if you can't account for instinctual variables. Instinctual variables make everybody's numbers wrong...unless you're all machines created to entertain me. *insert Conspiracy Keanu meme here*
Are you factoring in the bonus crit chance to proc the ie?
Yes. The damage from the PD is more consistent in every way. More chance to proc means you're more likely to get the first attack as a crit. But at the same time, 40 damage is 20% more raw AD, and the armor pen is tops on that too. So a IE+PD crit hits as hard as an IE crit, 200 x 2.6 /1.846 [vs 100 armor] = 281 damage. The IE+LW crit hits a lot harder 240 x 2.6 / 1.501 [vs 100 armor] = 416
I.E. PD makes you crit more, by each individual hit if you get the LW is going to land between 30 to 80% harder[48% vs 100 armor]. An IE+PD crit will only do ~75% more damage than a regular IE+LW hit against a target with 100 armor.
Consistency can be a drawback too. If your damage is spiky but unreliably this can create openings so long as you're able to capitalize when it happens. Kinda like how critplank works.
Not that PD doesn't have its advantages, its a lot easier to farm creeps with it than with LW, and the move speed makes being in the right place at the right time easier.
I also did not point out that the guy who bought LW instead of PD has a bit of extra cash[550] which he can use to buy a dagger or brawlers gloves which will make those numbers a bit better.
All i know is that I am going to be, at the very least, finishing LW before I finish PD, even if i get Zeal first.
Unfortunately for Ashe, Graves has his dash which has a handful second CD, and his Q and R are long range, and his smoke screen slows her too. Equally fed, Graves will win a duel with an Ashe trying to kite him.
He also has a lot more armor. I wasn't making a point about graves vs ashe. I just used Ashe as an example because her first crit is such an obvious "burst" for the first attack. Realistically all characters have that since their first attack essentially comes at time zero and the later attacks are the more consistent DPS [yes there is a slight delay and more AS will speed up the animation, but its negligible]
Whoa there, Gou. "Negligible" isn't really the word to use. I mean, after all, everybody else is assuming a stick is playing the opponent. A level 18 Graves will absolutely crush a level 1 Ashe. Attack speed is so different when you're 17 levels ahead, it's ridiculously easy to see why any champ is better when you tie their hands behind their back.
But seriously, attack speed does change a lot between level 1 with no items compared to level 18 with maxed attack speed.
Edit: Also, I was the one that made a joking blurb about Ashe walking away from Graves after you said "If Graves really wants something dead..."
Yes, characters typically get a raw ~55% attack speed boost going from level 1 to level 18. If you have a zerkers then you will have +80% base AS or so. PD increases that to +135% or so.
But this is why the boost from PD to the attack animation is not super-huge, if you've got zerks you've already got a ~50% boost around the time you would be finishing your PD
Don't get me wrong. I disagree with everybody that tries to use numbers. Using numbers means you assume that a stick is playing these characters.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Whenever people get into this type of theorycrafting here it makes me think an awful lot of those "this is exactly what is about to happen in this fight" moments in the Sherlock Holmes movies. Which is what I liked about the second one, where they actually accounted for the unpredictability of human behavior.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
The argument you just used doesn't work Harg.
If it doesn't work, then I'll handily beat Dyrus as Ashe if I take Graves.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
The argument you just used doesn't work Harg.
If it doesn't work, then I'll handily beat Dyrus as Ashe if I take Graves.
Why not just prove your argument by saying that if you intentionally throw the game as Graves, it proves the numbers argument irrelevant?
Generally people bring up numbers in these kind of things because it's the only reasonable thing you can discuss when assuming equal skill; assuming unequal skill just leads to "Well Graves dodges Ashe's arrow with his dash", "well then Ashe waits to arrow until he dashes" "well then he approaches from the bush" stupid shit. The point is that by the numbers Graves is probably gonna win a straight up fight with Ashe because Ashe is a carry with high utility and very poor steroids while Graves is a tankier carry with limited utility but a shit ton of burst and an effective gap closer.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
The argument you just used doesn't work Harg.
If it doesn't work, then I'll handily beat Dyrus as Ashe if I take Graves.
The reason we hold player skill equal when we think about these things is that it's useful for Dyrus to know how to behave when Doublelift is playing Graves. Or for Hargaad to predict the outcome of a 1v1 with a Graves who hasn't shown any obvious brain deficiencies.
And if you know how the other player should be able to beat you, it's easier to capitalize when they're not doing the right things.
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
The argument you just used doesn't work Harg.
If it doesn't work, then I'll handily beat Dyrus as Ashe if I take Graves.
Why not just prove your argument by saying that if you intentionally throw the game as Graves, it proves the numbers argument irrelevant?
Generally people bring up numbers in these kind of things because it's the only reasonable thing you can discuss when assuming equal skill; assuming unequal skill just leads to "Well Graves dodges Ashe's arrow with his dash", "well then Ashe waits to arrow until he dashes" "well then he approaches from the bush" stupid shit. The point is that by the numbers Graves is probably gonna win a straight up fight with Ashe because Ashe is a carry with high utility and very poor steroids while Graves is a tankier carry with limited utility but a shit ton of burst and an effective gap closer.
I agree, champions do have abilities, but their abilities are less-than-debatable when it comes to what wins matches.
I would hope that all of us laugh at those scrubs who say, "I not bad. U bad. 1v1 me without your team!"
All of your quotations are exactly what we should be discussing to help people understand when they should and shouldn't be hanging around!
A new player does need help with the numbers as if they were played by a stick. No doubt. People need to know the fundamentals.
But then what? "Cool. I know the numbers, and I just bursted Ashe, but she still killed my Graves! WTF?! The numbers, man! THE NUMBERS!<"
Most of us on this forum know the numbers. It's the player skill and foresight that needs to be built upon now for all of us to begin elevating our own skill levels.
For instance: would you place a ward in the river bush against me playing Rammus? Fuck no! You ward plenty far back so you don't get caught by my rapid Powerball which would blow past your river-bush ward before you could escape in time.
Edit: It doesn't hurt to still share the numbers. That's something we can all do, but numbers only mean something if the other person has bad decision-making skills. Saying Graves has tremendous burst is legit. I see that in the numbers. Ashe has utility. Cool. But it's impossible to say "1v1" because no two people play the same. There will always be differences.
Edit 2: Also to note, NA teams are awesome and all, but Korean teams will straight butt-fuck most of them all day, erryday, and twice on Sunday! There's just a mentality shift in play-style.
Posts
However, Hargaad will not be participating, and I will not be able to join Ventrilo. I will be conducting drafting strictly from the "Painhouse" LoL chat channel.
Keep in mind: not tomorrow, but the week after, we will begin joining LoL chat channel "PAving Grounds" for PAving Grounds drafting.
Everything else will proceed as usual. I will set up the spreadsheet, then I must disappear.
I ask that captains take screenshots of the end-game results so I can update the spreadsheet win/loss records.
If you haven't already, I request that all who participate read the second post on page 1 on here.
Edit: Mostly, I need captains to understand that there's a small effort in getting their team to talk about who they think the enemy MVP is after each game. Then, I need teams to discuss who their own MVP is based on all of their games played that week. I prefer you don't do it publicly. Captains need to message me with their team's votes for MVP either on LoL, or on here...I don't care, just get them to me, plz.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
I was on his team, good guy, fun to play with, A+ would play again
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
It is not that people die in 2 shots, its that people die before you make up the damage disadvantage you start with.
Its easiest to see with Ashe, with IE and LW she will do about 418 damage against a 100 armor target on a crit. With IE and BC about 345. The second hit for the LW will do more damage than the cleaver. The third hit for the LW will still do more damage than the cleaver.
The cleaver starts doing more damage on the fourth hit[which will get there sooner] but it still has to make up the 100 odd damage advantage that the LW started with.
And 100 armor is a low value for armor if your carry has 7k gold.
Lets examine for instance Graves at level 10. IE+LW vs IE + PD. Lets assume 100 armor targets
IE,LW,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~240
Graves q damage: 274 up to 465 for point blank
Graves r damage: 409 + 299 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage 235
No Quickdraw DPS:: 232
Quickdraw DPS:: 322
IE,PD,Zerks,Double Dorans, AD reds, MS quints, Full offensive Masteries
AD : ~200
Graves q damage: 216 up to 368 point blank
Graves r damage: 287 + 211 AoE
Initial Expected Attack Damage: 203
No Quickdraw DPS:: 272 [I.E. Expected Attack Damage x attacks/second]
Quickdraw DPS:: 349
This implies that if Graves AA, q, AA's he will have a minimum 122 damage "lead" on the PD Graves. PD graves has 40 more DPS and so has to do damage for 3 seconds in order to make up the lead.
On the top end of this burst scale, Graves e's in and gets a full q for again about a 130 damage lead[assuming e,q,AA instead of e,AA,q,AA to ensure the full buckshot goes off]. Since quickdraw is on the PD outdps's the LW by 27 which makes up the difference in 4.7 seconds.
If graves really wants something dead. The AA,q,R burst damage difference is 1100 damage burst for LW graves and 858 for PD graves. A difference of 242 damage!
Note all numbers here are post armor.
The disadvantage is run speed. Maybe buy zeal before the LW.
The real disadvantage is if Graves wants Ashe dead. Ashe has a full 75 auto-attack range on Graves, and will kite the fuck out of him with her Q. (and her W!)
Edit: Unless my source is incorrect. If incorrect, you guys should fix it with an anonymous edit. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Eh, that's more fiction than fact. Assuming we use our special blinders that block out all rational situations as most people have been doing on here lately, I'm going to assume Ashe is flawless and uses her W before Graves uses his dash or slow, then turning to run herself.
Sure, Graves has a long-range ult. Surprise! Ashe has a better ult.
Ashe simply has better poke, and beats Graves more handily than Paul Reubens at a skin-flick theater. (It was a good movie, iirc.) 8-|
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Only people say it's not true. Those people are wrong. *Edit: Meaning, people quote incorrect facts. Vids or it isn't true.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
However it is somewhat of an even fight and the supports will make or break that lane matchup more than anything.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
This, I can agree with. There is no assumption that Ashe has no abilities, and stands there like a tree, waiting to yell, "TIMBERRRRRRRR!"
Edit: Don't get me wrong. I disagree with everybody that tries to use numbers. Using numbers means you assume that a stick is playing these characters.
Discussing numbers that AI use means nothing if you can't account for instinctual variables. Instinctual variables make everybody's numbers wrong...unless you're all machines created to entertain me. *insert Conspiracy Keanu meme here*
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Yes. The damage from the PD is more consistent in every way. More chance to proc means you're more likely to get the first attack as a crit. But at the same time, 40 damage is 20% more raw AD, and the armor pen is tops on that too. So a IE+PD crit hits as hard as an IE crit, 200 x 2.6 /1.846 [vs 100 armor] = 281 damage. The IE+LW crit hits a lot harder 240 x 2.6 / 1.501 [vs 100 armor] = 416
I.E. PD makes you crit more, by each individual hit if you get the LW is going to land between 30 to 80% harder[48% vs 100 armor]. An IE+PD crit will only do ~75% more damage than a regular IE+LW hit against a target with 100 armor.
Consistency can be a drawback too. If your damage is spiky but unreliably this can create openings so long as you're able to capitalize when it happens. Kinda like how critplank works.
Not that PD doesn't have its advantages, its a lot easier to farm creeps with it than with LW, and the move speed makes being in the right place at the right time easier.
I also did not point out that the guy who bought LW instead of PD has a bit of extra cash[550] which he can use to buy a dagger or brawlers gloves which will make those numbers a bit better.
All i know is that I am going to be, at the very least, finishing LW before I finish PD, even if i get Zeal first.
He also has a lot more armor. I wasn't making a point about graves vs ashe. I just used Ashe as an example because her first crit is such an obvious "burst" for the first attack. Realistically all characters have that since their first attack essentially comes at time zero and the later attacks are the more consistent DPS [yes there is a slight delay and more AS will speed up the animation, but its negligible]
But seriously, attack speed does change a lot between level 1 with no items compared to level 18 with maxed attack speed.
Edit: Also, I was the one that made a joking blurb about Ashe walking away from Graves after you said "If Graves really wants something dead..."
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
But this is why the boost from PD to the attack animation is not super-huge, if you've got zerks you've already got a ~50% boost around the time you would be finishing your PD
What? That is really dumb.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Gotta keep sane at work.
I see what you did there.
Well, did you? I heard she's pretty easy.
Game 1:
Game 2:
Game 3:
Game 4:
Game 5:
Congrats. You've discovered how I feel when people fail to account for playstyle. Just because you crunch the numbers in a vs matchup does not mean those numbers will all be accounted for. It's nice to know, but you cannot factualize the opinion of "so-and-so beats that other so-and-so," or that one champ is better than another.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Whenever people get into this type of theorycrafting here it makes me think an awful lot of those "this is exactly what is about to happen in this fight" moments in the Sherlock Holmes movies. Which is what I liked about the second one, where they actually accounted for the unpredictability of human behavior.
Harg.. no.. We can easily look at kits and see who has the better kit in a 1v1. Ashe is far more a utility champ and Graves is a burst champ, one who is very, very capable of getting past Ashe's slows and absolutely destroying her. Will he win every 1v1? Probably not, but I would bet on Graves in every single fight.
The argument you just used doesn't work Harg.
If it doesn't work, then I'll handily beat Dyrus as Ashe if I take Graves.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Why not just prove your argument by saying that if you intentionally throw the game as Graves, it proves the numbers argument irrelevant?
Generally people bring up numbers in these kind of things because it's the only reasonable thing you can discuss when assuming equal skill; assuming unequal skill just leads to "Well Graves dodges Ashe's arrow with his dash", "well then Ashe waits to arrow until he dashes" "well then he approaches from the bush" stupid shit. The point is that by the numbers Graves is probably gonna win a straight up fight with Ashe because Ashe is a carry with high utility and very poor steroids while Graves is a tankier carry with limited utility but a shit ton of burst and an effective gap closer.
The reason we hold player skill equal when we think about these things is that it's useful for Dyrus to know how to behave when Doublelift is playing Graves. Or for Hargaad to predict the outcome of a 1v1 with a Graves who hasn't shown any obvious brain deficiencies.
And if you know how the other player should be able to beat you, it's easier to capitalize when they're not doing the right things.
edit: North America
I agree, champions do have abilities, but their abilities are less-than-debatable when it comes to what wins matches.
I would hope that all of us laugh at those scrubs who say, "I not bad. U bad. 1v1 me without your team!"
All of your quotations are exactly what we should be discussing to help people understand when they should and shouldn't be hanging around!
A new player does need help with the numbers as if they were played by a stick. No doubt. People need to know the fundamentals.
But then what? "Cool. I know the numbers, and I just bursted Ashe, but she still killed my Graves! WTF?! The numbers, man! THE NUMBERS!
Most of us on this forum know the numbers. It's the player skill and foresight that needs to be built upon now for all of us to begin elevating our own skill levels.
For instance: would you place a ward in the river bush against me playing Rammus? Fuck no! You ward plenty far back so you don't get caught by my rapid Powerball which would blow past your river-bush ward before you could escape in time.
Edit: It doesn't hurt to still share the numbers. That's something we can all do, but numbers only mean something if the other person has bad decision-making skills. Saying Graves has tremendous burst is legit. I see that in the numbers. Ashe has utility. Cool. But it's impossible to say "1v1" because no two people play the same. There will always be differences.
Edit 2: Also to note, NA teams are awesome and all, but Korean teams will straight butt-fuck most of them all day, erryday, and twice on Sunday! There's just a mentality shift in play-style.
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.