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MOTW 08/15/12 - Oh.

2

Posts

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    That Wonder Woman thing doesn't make sense since she had her bracelets off in the first issue.
    She wasn't fighting or in danger then

    she probably has at least a little control over it

    She thought she was in danger and almost snapped Zola's neck.

    Also, why would she be more powerful than Artemis without the bracelets? They're both children of Zeus but Artemis is a full god while Wonder Woman is only a demi-god with 1/2 or 3/4 divine bloodline.

    And why did Artemis stop using her projectile attacks after Wonder Woman discarded her only defense against them? That seemed like a pretty dumb move for the Goddess of the Hunt.

    Seems to imply that WW should not be able to out strength Artemis under and circumstances.

    Granted not as broad as defeat but I still don't care for it.

    nightmarenny on
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  • ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Except that this wasn't really a hunt. It was a straight up fight between the two. Diana wasn't "cornered". It's pretty clear that Artemis considered beating WW to be a pretty trifling matter.

    Further, it would only be weird if Artemis had been portrayed as anything other than arrogant. Go back and read this entire run so far. Azarrello has written the greek gods, all of them, even the ones who help Diana, as being supremely arrogant. Artemis suddenly losing her arrogance would have been pretty inconsistent.

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Arryn wrote: »
    Except that this wasn't really a hunt. It was a straight up fight between the two. Diana wasn't "cornered". It's pretty clear that Artemis considered beating WW to be a pretty trifling matter.

    Further, it would only be weird if Artemis had been portrayed as anything other than arrogant. Go back and read this entire run so far. Azarrello has written the greek gods, all of them, even the ones who help Diana, as being supremely arrogant. Artemis suddenly losing her arrogance would have been pretty inconsistent.

    The problem isn't that Azarrello is writing the Greek Gods as arrogant or as human. The problem is that he's not writing them as if they are gods with thousands of years of experience. These gods are portrayed as being way too naive and undeservedly arrogant about their simplistic and petty plots. The way that Azarrello writes these immortal beings simply pales in comparison to the likes of Sandman, Lucifer, and some of the better Dungeons and Dragons books/games where there are immortal beings who do have plans within plans and complex schemes that are deserving of a lot of pride and arrogance.

    There's nothing wrong with Artemis being portrayed as arrogant. It's just that she shouldn't have been so arrogant given the situation.

    The fact that it wasn't a hunt isn't the point. It's matter of how Artemis would view the situation. Considering how she is the Goddess of the Hunt, she would perceive such a battle through that lens. And it doesn't matter if Artemis considered beating Wonder Woman to be an insignificant feat. One of the most basic things that hunters have to learn is not to underestimate their prey.

  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    Which reminds me.

    Remember when Count Vertigo killed Kanto?

    Now that guy was a boss.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    The Greek Gods were, in all the myths, arrogant childish shitheads

    which is exactly how they are acting in Wonder Woman

    it is surprisingly accurate

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Just because they're arrogant childish shitheads doesn't mean they have to be naive and stupid too.

    Most gods in myth and fiction are like that but they can still be written as being smart and devious. Look at some of the better Dungeons and Dragons stuff like Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, the gods are stubborn assholes who inflict needless suffering upon mortals just so they could gain worshippers but it's written in such a way so that the gods aren't naive idiots who can't see what's right in front of them and actually have sinister plans that aren't obvious to everyone.

    KingofMadCows on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    I think you're complaining about nothing. It makes perfect sense for Artemis to be arrogant at that point, because she's faced Diana just five minutes earlier and had little trouble fending her off.

    And yes, the gods have had thousands of years of experience. Thousands of years of experience being the biggest, baddest motherfuckers around. Of course they're going to underestimate their opponents. Usually they can afford to. The fact that this bastard halfbreed is a serious threat doesn't even enter into their minds until it's too late.

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  • SagrothSagroth Registered User regular
    Yeah, you should read the Iliad sometime. Greek gods are idiot libidinous douchebags.

    Really, the only clever Gods are the trickster ones, and it's their stories that often make the other gods look the dumbest.

    3DS Code: 5155-3087-0800
  • SagrothSagroth Registered User regular
    Also: Endless? Not Gods.

    Lucifer? Fallen Angel, and always depicted as very intelligent.

    D&D gods? Most of the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms ones are made up(also, Lloth is an idiot).

    3DS Code: 5155-3087-0800
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Hensler wrote: »
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Im not going to lie. Slott did good.
    I have no idea why it took this long for Curt Conners "Lizard". Like, im sure they did this before, right? Curing Curt of crazy Lizard and giving him full control is too goddamn good of an idea not to have happend.

    Yeah, it's happened once or twice, it just never lasts.

    But ever since Thunderbolts took off as a concept, I've wanted to see more and more villains turn hero and have brand new villains brought in.

    Interesting new villains would be great. Instead, we get people like Menace, Freak, and Paper Doll.

    Menace was fine, and Mr. Negative is awesome.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MattitudeMattitude Paste Pot Pete Kicking The BucketRegistered User regular
    I liked Paper Doll. So there.

    I got this Tumblr and I don't know how to use it.
    Decide on the next line by the rhyme when I choose it.
    Also I put songs on YouTube
    The musings of this lonely rube.

    I made a thread once. It didn't end well for me.
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Talking about cool new villains

    I have been recently reading Parker's Hulk series and he introduced a few very cool new villains in that

  • TeaSpoonTeaSpoon Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I'm in favor of the idea that the gods are limited in their ability to change. They are who they are, even after thousands of years of experience. They do not learn from their mistakes because adaptation is change, and change is antithetical to their essential, immortal natures. It would corrupt the purity of their beings.

    This fits well with the Greek asshole type of gods. It even fits with Sandman. In fact, it was a major theme from beginning to end.

    TeaSpoon on
    Crimsondude
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    so is the argument:

    I don't like this thing, therefore it's wrong?

  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington Registered User regular
    I think the more telling line was "My cuffs were yours."

    Wouldn't that be sort of like trying to use a symbol/possession of a god to attack them? So she drops them, because Artemis probably still has some connection/power over them.

    I dunno, that's how I read it. Not berserker mode all the time, but on Olympus, against the goddess that used to own them? Makes sense to me.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    no, wonder woman was responding to whoever. whoever said "why are you taking your gauntlets off? you will have no defense against this weird knife thing"

    and wonder woman says the gauntlets were to protect her opponents, not her

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    That Wonder Woman thing doesn't make sense since she had her bracelets off in the first issue.
    She wasn't fighting or in danger then

    she probably has at least a little control over it

    Plus, she didn't know she was a demi-god then.

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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    I think you're complaining about nothing. It makes perfect sense for Artemis to be arrogant at that point, because she's faced Diana just five minutes earlier and had little trouble fending her off.

    Except that completely goes against the whole "Goddess of the Hunt" thing. It doesn't make sense for a hunter, no matter how experienced, to underestimate their prey. As I said before, for the patron goddess of the hunt to ignore that basic rule would be like the patron god of accounting deciding to wing it on the math during tax time.
    And yes, the gods have had thousands of years of experience. Thousands of years of experience being the biggest, baddest motherfuckers around. Of course they're going to underestimate their opponents. Usually they can afford to. The fact that this bastard halfbreed is a serious threat doesn't even enter into their minds until it's too late.

    Except Greek myth is full of stories about gods and other legendary figures trying not to underestimate their opponents. After Kronus learned the prophecy of his child overthrowing him, he didn't let all his children grow up to have the chance of challenging him, he tried to kill them all in their infancy. After Zeus learned the prophecy of his son growing up to overthrow him, he tricked Metis into turning into a fly and swallowed her before the child was even born.
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Yeah, you should read the Iliad sometime. Greek gods are idiot libidinous douchebags.

    Really, the only clever Gods are the trickster ones, and it's their stories that often make the other gods look the dumbest.

    Artemis is a trickster god. In Greek myths, she's generally depicted as crafty and rarely uses direct action.
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Also: Endless? Not Gods.

    Lucifer? Fallen Angel, and always depicted as very intelligent.

    D&D gods? Most of the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms ones are made up(also, Lloth is an idiot).

    Sandman and Lucifer have plenty of other immortals and gods, and they even though they were portrayed as arrogant and petulant, they were also portrayed as possessing the kind of intelligence that comes from thousands of years of experience.

    So what if D&D gods are made up? Greek gods are made up too. The point is that in the better written D&D stuff, the gods are portrayed as being petty and arrogant like the Greek gods but also extremely insidious and smart.

    KingofMadCows on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Artemis has no reason to believe she's underestimating Diana. She's fought with her before and she's seen her fight. Hunter or no, her power boost when she takes off her bracers was completely unexpected.

    Especially that Lennox, another one of Zeus's bastards, smashed his own arm trying to punch her, to absolutely no effect.

    Spectre-x on
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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Except again, she's the friggin' Goddess of the Hunt! Hunters should know that cornered and desperate prey are also very dangerous, that even small and seemingly harmless game can lash out and inflict grievous wounds in such a situation.

    KingofMadCows on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    Artemis was literally impervious to harm before Diana took off her bracers. She took the brunt of the attack from another one of Zeus's bastards without even moving.

    You give the gods too much credit, especialy the greek ones. They spent a lot of time being crafty, but they also spent a lot of time horrifically underestimating people. You mentioned Kronus. Yeah, he took the effort to eat his kids to stop them from rising up against him. He didn't take the effort to check if he was actually eating all of his kinds instead of most of his kids and also a rock.

    Furthermore, it wouldn't have helped Artemis much if she had been more careful because if you'd actually look at the fight it's clear that Diana shows completely overwhelming power and speed.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Artemis was arrogant and hubristic

    She believed her enemy defeated and underestimated Diana's resolve and strength

    if you don't think this would fit in the ancient myths then your perception of the Greek Gods as literary figures is too solidly defined

    it's hardly as if the Greeks didn't depict the Gods acting in a variety of wild ways in their own stories

    Also holy shit this is a story about a bunch of characters based on literal myth

    as long as they act in believable and internally consistent ways then who gives a shit if they don't match the myths exactly

    Nobody cares that the Asgardians aren't like the norse gods of legend (those who do should either be ignored or mocked)

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    The God of Accounting probably gets picked on a lot.

    WiseManTobes on
    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
    TexiKen
  • AtomicTofuAtomicTofu She's a straight-up supervillain, yo Registered User regular
    The zombie Nixon thing from UXF is a shoutout to the upcoming Deadpool book, right? I really love these little details.

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Except I don't expect the gods to be depicted like the way they are in myths. I want them to be depicted as having the same personality as they had in the myths but also possessing the experience and knowledge of someone who has been around for thousands of years.

    Yes, they can be petty and arrogant but it shouldn't actually cause them to make such amateur mistakes in a specific domain that they are masters of. A god of the hunt would not make foolish mistakes in a hunt just as a god of the harvest would not make foolish mistakes in planting crops or a god of smiths would make poor quality weapons and tools.

    I think the story could have worked better if they had Artemis utilize her skills and experience as a hunter who possesses a great deal of knowledge about how to defeat stronger and faster prey, allowing her to retain the upper hand against Wonder Woman and force WW to think up of a better plan to best Artemis. Maybe WW sees the hunter prey dynamic that Artemis operates upon and how Artemis uses her hunter's intuition to predict and provoke her prey's instinctual and emotional responses. WW realizes that her assault is similar to how a cornered animal would lash out against its attacker and that Artemis has 3,000 years worth of experience putting such animals down. WW then calms her emotions so that she's able to fight in a much more measured and methodical fashion, thus rendering Artemis's instincts far less effective.

  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    So this argument is exactly:

    "I dont like it, therefore its wrong"

    I know you like Artemis as a concept but good god dude this isnt the only Artemis in fiction and she is kind of a bitch here so its good she's getting her ass kicked by SSJ Wonder Woman.

  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    Except that wouldn't have fit on the page and it would have destroyed the pacing of the issue.

    And her instincts wouldn't have helped her anyway. If you'd read the issue you'd know that what happened here wasn't really similar to a wounded animal lashing out so much as it was similar to a wounded animal turning out to secretly be the terminator with a howitzer.

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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    So this argument is exactly:

    "I dont like it, therefore its wrong"

    I know you like Artemis as a concept but good god dude this isnt the only Artemis in fiction and she is kind of a bitch here so its good she's getting her ass kicked by SSJ Wonder Woman.

    Except that's not my argument at all. And it's not about me liking Artemis as a concept. My problem is the lazy way in which the gods have been written. There's no real depth to any of them, they don't act like they have thousands of years of experience, they're petulant arrogant children who happen to have a lot of power and that's it. It's just so overdone and cliche. And you know what? Maybe it's just me. Maybe this is good storytelling. Maybe I've just been too spoiled by things like "Sandman," "Lucifer," "Planescape: Torment," "Mask of the Betrayer," etc., and my expectations are way too high.
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    Except that wouldn't have fit on the page and it would have destroyed the pacing of the issue.

    And her instincts wouldn't have helped her anyway. If you'd read the issue you'd know that what happened here wasn't really similar to a wounded animal lashing out so much as it was similar to a wounded animal turning out to secretly be the terminator with a howitzer.

    And that's the problem with the series. It's not very well thought out. They don't really bother to develop any of these characters or concepts. They just think of something cool and throw it on without considering its implications. The problem isn't just Artemis jobbing this fight. There's also how this whole Wonder Woman SSJ thing introduces a lot of continuity issues since there have been several situations in the past where Wonder Woman should have taken her bracers off. Why didn't she do it against Strife when she was slaughtering Amazons? Why didn't she do it against Hera when she teleported to her magic pool room? Why didn't she use it against Hades? Why didn't she do it in the friggin' last issue when she was getting her ass handed to her by Apollo?

    KingofMadCows on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    You're a goose.

    In order:

    1- She barely fought Strife, and Strife wasn't even the aggressor. The amazons were killing each other and that stopped pretty much the moment Diana confronted Strife.
    2- The plan wasn't to fight Hera, it was to destroy her scrying pool. And she did.
    3- She wanted to resolve the Hades issue diplomatically, and she did. Also, she was inside his realm where he is pretty much all-powerful and even a power boost would not have helped her.
    4- There was barely any time to do so. Also, there were a lot of innocent bystanders. If the bracers do what they did in the past they're not just a power inhibitor, but they keep her from going berserk, too. You can even tell that she's much more savage when fighting Artemis. She's pounds her into the dirt and is about to snap her neck when Apollo stops her.

    The bracers are supposed to be a last resort kind of thing.

    It doesn't cause any continuity issues

    You don't actually know what jobbing means, and the fact that you think the series isn't very well thought out, even sloppy shows that you don't know what you're talking about because it's anything but. And with the way you're talking about the comic I find it difficult to believe that you were able to follow what happened in the comics and games you mentioned. Nice job on bringing those up to make your tastes look superior, by the way.

    Check your mythology again. The Greek gods were always petulant childre, and they were supposedly thousands of years old even back then!

    Honestly I just think you're looking for something to complain about. It's like you're actively trying to misinterpret the story to support your (kinda crummy) argument.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I was going to post a response

    but then I realized that I simply do not care enough

    enjoy your debate, gentlemen

    UXF felt a little under par this week

    future everyone was a complete jerk, loved seeing Wade tell Frank where to shove it though

    I find myself more interested in what happens next, as it were. This last couple of issues in the future have been an interesting diversion but more important things are afoot.

  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    UXF reinforced that, no matter what crazy nonsense happens in the Marvel Universe, everything comes up Hank Pym.

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  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    I, too, am done with this discussion.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I figured the power up from removing her bracers, wasn't that they were a blocker, but powered items on their own, that drew power from her to stop bullets and what have you.

    So taking them off suddenly transfers the stream of power usually powering the bands back to her.

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Spectre-x wrote: »
    You're a goose.

    In order:

    1- She barely fought Strife, and Strife wasn't even the aggressor. The amazons were killing each other and that stopped pretty much the moment Diana confronted Strife.
    2- The plan wasn't to fight Hera, it was to destroy her scrying pool. And she did.
    3- She wanted to resolve the Hades issue diplomatically, and she did. Also, she was inside his realm where he is pretty much all-powerful and even a power boost would not have helped her.
    4- There was barely any time to do so. Also, there were a lot of innocent bystanders. If the bracers do what they did in the past they're not just a power inhibitor, but they keep her from going berserk, too. You can even tell that she's much more savage when fighting Artemis. She's pounds her into the dirt and is about to snap her neck when Apollo stops her.

    The bracers are supposed to be a last resort kind of thing.

    It doesn't cause any continuity issues

    1. Except Aleka was still trying to kill Wonder Woman when she saw Strife.
    2. Except her ultimate goal was to stop Hera from going after Zola. Destroying the scrying pool was only a temporary solution. If she had beaten Hera then, she wouldn't have had to deal with her later. In fact, the whole reason why she took part in that convoluted plan to destroy the scrying pool was because she wasn't powerful enough to fight Hera. But if she had that strength all along then why didn't she just go fight Hera in the first place and punch her in the face until she promises to stop hunting Zola and releases the Amazons from her curse. That way, they wouldn't have had to trick Poseidon and Hades into taking part in Lennox's plan and potentially incur their wrath as well.
    3. Except for the whole part where she said that she would fight with all her might against Hades so that he could never win.
    4. Bracers were off in the first issue when Wonder Woman was in bed and she didn't go berserk or snap Zola's neck. They were also off when she was in Hades during the part where she was with Persephone. And even though she was more violent towards Artemis, she wasn't really causing a lot of damage to the surrounding area.
    You don't actually know what jobbing means, and the fact that you think the series isn't very well thought out, even sloppy shows that you don't know what you're talking about because it's anything but. And with the way you're talking about the comic I find it difficult to believe that you were able to follow what happened in the comics and games you mentioned.

    Artemis's powers in mythology are:
    1. Shapeshfting
    2. Transmuting people into animals
    3. Control over animals as well as mystical creatures
    4. Unerring accuracy
    5. Magical arrows that kill instantly
    6. Hunter of unmatched skill

    How did she not job against Wonder Woman? As I have asked before, why did she go in for a hand to hand attack when WW dropped her best defense against projectile weapons?
    Nice job on bringing those up to make your tastes look superior, by the way.

    Check your mythology again. The Greek gods were always petulant childre, and they were supposedly thousands of years old even back then!

    Bringing up those other things have nothing to do with my taste. That was never my point. I've put forth my argument very clearly and simply,
    Just because they're arrogant childish shitheads doesn't mean they have to be naive and stupid too.

    Most gods in myth and fiction are like that but they can still be written as being smart and devious. Look at some of the better Dungeons and Dragons stuff like Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, the gods are stubborn assholes who inflict needless suffering upon mortals just so they could gain worshippers but it's written in such a way so that the gods aren't naive idiots who can't see what's right in front of them and actually have sinister plans that aren't obvious to everyone.

    That has nothing to do with "superior tastes," it's simply a contrast between the way other writers have written gods or immortal beings as being petulant children but also intelligent and devious while Azarrello has written them to not only be as petulant as children but also as naive and foolish as children.

    KingofMadCows on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    this is my motw
    SECAVN2010034.jpg

    SECRET AVENGERS is fucking awesome.

    mummy thor
    frankencastle
    cap-wolf
    vampire wolverine looks a hell of lot like fucking dark claw

    i can die happy

    Wow. OK, where exactly is that from? Secret Avengers? Do I have to pick that up, now? I got so burned out on Avengers books.

    What is the setup for that incredible panel?

    it is from solicits for secret avengers 34

    I play games on ps3 and ps4. My PSN is DouglasDanger.
  • Man of the WavesMan of the Waves Registered User regular
    There are too many Avengers books going on, sure, but I wouldn't drop the Secret or New titles.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    TeaSpoon wrote: »
    I'm in favor of the idea that the gods are limited in their ability to change. They are who they are, even after thousands of years of experience. They do not learn from their mistakes because adaptation is change, and change is antithetical to their essential, immortal natures. It would corrupt the purity of their beings.

    This fits well with the Greek asshole type of gods. It even fits with Sandman. In fact, it was a major theme from beginning to end.

    Journey Into Mystery is doing a good riff on this idea with Kid Loki. While he's trying to do the right thing, he's alternatively fighting and embracing the fact that his inner essence is that of a trickster.

    He has to lie, cheat and steal. It's his nature.

  • TyrantCowTyrantCow Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Delduwath wrote: »
    this is my motw
    SECAVN2010034.jpg

    SECRET AVENGERS is fucking awesome.

    mummy thor
    frankencastle
    cap-wolf
    vampire wolverine looks a hell of lot like fucking dark claw

    i can die happy

    Wow. OK, where exactly is that from? Secret Avengers? Do I have to pick that up, now? I got so burned out on Avengers books.

    What is the setup for that incredible panel?

    it is from solicits for secret avengers 34

    knowing absolutely nothing about secret avengers, i have added it to my pull list due to that image.

    - contemplating x-force as well due to discussion here.

    TyrantCow on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    You need to read X-Force from the beginning of Remender's run. It is so great.

  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    And it's worth picking up all of Remender's Secret Avengers.

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