You telling me you find a 5 affix chest piece that matches a 6 affix chest piece exactly but with an added health globe increase or pickup radius is going to make it worth the extra money? I don't think so.
Yes, those affixes will still make a piece more desirable. It's just a matter of how valuable the affixes are. You might not pay 5m extra to get the pickup radius, but you might pay 50k. CC reduction, +HP on globes, pickup radius, individual resist, HP regen no one ever cared about before because (1) You couldn't search for them and (2) There were much better affixes to look for. What's happening is a formerly important stat is getting bumped down the list and allowing some affixes that no one cared about previously show up on wearable pieces.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
0
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Well, this is exactly the kind of change _J_ would hate. It caters to those other people that play the game (aka the vast majority of people who put down money to play it), and not the top top top top tier that _J_ feels should be catered to in video games.
I mean, he said it himself, it's a change for the 99%. _J_ is self admittedly the 1%, who doesn't feel like he should have to pay "taxes" (changes to a janky mechanic) because he "stimulates the economy" (has all the gear required to enjoy that janky mechanic).
The game is structured to place everyone on the same level with respect to skills and talents. Now everyone is on the same level with respect to MF and GF. The only difference is the amount of time that players invest. You're at paragon level 80 and I'm at paragon level 50? The only thing that means is that you have played longer.
There's no need to metagame gear choice. No need to weight out costs and benefits.
Just keep dumping time in.
There's no way for me to get ahead of you in MF since there is a MF cap.
The next step is to place a cap on DPS, on life, on resistance.
Because heaven forfend anyone's number be higher than anyone else's number.
And heaven forbid a completely non competitive game be made a competition, where you spend any amount of time somewhere north of zero worrying about if your numbers are bigger than mine.
Also, it's always been a time sink. When I see your gear. I don't think "Wow, how thoughtful _J_ is, how efficient!". All I see is "He spent more time playing than me".
While everyone is RABBLE RABBLE about the changes to MF, I found this part the most distressing.
Every Paragon level will reward you with: Core stats such as Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Vitality in amounts similar to what you’d gain from a normal level
3% Magic Find and 3% Gold Find
"OK, we're not increasing the level cap, but we're increasing your stats as if you were leveling. And we're calling it Paragon levels instead."
*sigh*
Why not just increase the level cap? Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact that you've just extended the grind another 99 levels. At what point will Inferno become easy? Even if you only gave 1 point to each stat per level, at some point the game will become trivial. How will they keep the game from being too easy?
Jeepers, I wonder if they even think this shit through sometimes.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
They could solve some of the problems with a broader range of desirable affixes that are only available on limited and mutually exclusive gear slots. You can, for the most part, stack every desirable affix in every slot without really giving up much, which is honestly why the gearing metagame suffers, more than the defacto nerfing of MF.
Removing MF isn't the thing that slays all thinking and choice from the gearing process or some such rubbish, it's just a symptom of the rotten gear/affix system.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
While everyone is RABBLE RABBLE about the changes to MF, I found this part the most distressing.
Every Paragon level will reward you with: Core stats such as Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Vitality in amounts similar to what you’d gain from a normal level
3% Magic Find and 3% Gold Find
"OK, we're not increasing the level cap, but we're increasing your stats as if you were leveling. And we're calling it Paragon levels instead."
*sigh*
Why not just increase the level cap? Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact that you've just extended the grind another 99 levels. At what point will Inferno become easy? Even if you only gave 1 point to each stat per level, at some point the game will become trivial. How will they keep the game from being too easy?
Jeepers, I wonder if they even think this shit through sometimes.
Because a separate leveling track is easier to balance and build and understand. It also makes more sense since Paragon levels are completely different from 1-60 levels.
As for too easy, that was never an issue in D2. They tried to make it one in D3 and people didn't like it. So they are changing the nature of endgame.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
Don't worry _J_, soon Blizzard will come right to your door to punish you for being so good at D3. It's a new service they are offering for premium players.
While everyone is RABBLE RABBLE about the changes to MF, I found this part the most distressing.
Every Paragon level will reward you with: Core stats such as Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Vitality in amounts similar to what you’d gain from a normal level
3% Magic Find and 3% Gold Find
"OK, we're not increasing the level cap, but we're increasing your stats as if you were leveling. And we're calling it Paragon levels instead."
*sigh*
Why not just increase the level cap? Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact that you've just extended the grind another 99 levels. At what point will Inferno become easy? Even if you only gave 1 point to each stat per level, at some point the game will become trivial. How will they keep the game from being too easy?
Jeepers, I wonder if they even think this shit through sometimes.
I wonder if the Paragon levels mean that they will never increase the level cap. I thought one plan for expansions was to make the cap higher. With paragon does this mean that a player would keep their base level and paragon level, but base level increases to 70 and paragon increases to 120, but then your experience goes to base level, until you hit 70, and then it goes into paragon...
Well, this is exactly the kind of change _J_ would hate. It caters to those other people that play the game (aka the vast majority of people who put down money to play it), and not the top top top top tier that _J_ feels should be catered to in video games.
I mean, he said it himself, it's a change for the 99%. _J_ is self admittedly the 1%, who doesn't feel like he should have to pay "taxes" (changes to a janky mechanic) because he "stimulates the economy" (has all the gear required to enjoy that janky mechanic).
The game is structured to place everyone on the same level with respect to skills and talents. Now everyone is on the same level with respect to MF and GF. The only difference is the amount of time that players invest. You're at paragon level 80 and I'm at paragon level 50? The only thing that means is that you have played longer.
There's no need to metagame gear choice. No need to weight out costs and benefits.
Just keep dumping time in.
There's no way for me to get ahead of you in MF since there is a MF cap.
The next step is to place a cap on DPS, on life, on resistance.
Because heaven forfend anyone's number be higher than anyone else's number.
And heaven forbid a completely non competitive game be made a competition, where you spend any amount of time somewhere north of zero worrying about if your numbers are bigger than mine.
Also, it's always been a time sink. When I see your gear. I don't think "Wow, how thoughtful _J_ is, how efficient!". All I see is "He spent more time playing than me".
While everyone is RABBLE RABBLE about the changes to MF, I found this part the most distressing.
Every Paragon level will reward you with: Core stats such as Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Vitality in amounts similar to what you’d gain from a normal level
3% Magic Find and 3% Gold Find
"OK, we're not increasing the level cap, but we're increasing your stats as if you were leveling. And we're calling it Paragon levels instead."
*sigh*
Why not just increase the level cap? Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact that you've just extended the grind another 99 levels. At what point will Inferno become easy? Even if you only gave 1 point to each stat per level, at some point the game will become trivial. How will they keep the game from being too easy?
Jeepers, I wonder if they even think this shit through sometimes.
I wonder if the Paragon levels mean that they will never increase the level cap. I thought one plan for expansions was to make the cap higher. With paragon does this mean that a player would keep their base level and paragon level, but base level increases to 70 and paragon increases to 120, but then your experience goes to base level, until you hit 70, and then it goes into paragon...
Yeah, this is a brilliant system.
Uh, you just stop gaining XP towards your paragon levels and start gaining it towards normal levels till you max out again.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
magic find is a dumb stat anyway. it doesn't actually increase the strength of your character which is why I never bothered with it. I want to pimp my character and have 100k dps, not slightly raise my chance to find rares.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
"lazily ambled" because I focused on the "game" part of the loot skinner box with dps stats that actually made me feel like my character was progressing rather than modifying the relatively miniscule, relatively invisible chance to drop rares?
I really do understand that you find a lot of joy in balancing stats, but implying that everyone who didn't give a shit about what is honestly one of the least interesting stats in the game is lazy is simply off-base. getting more rares doesn't evoke a sense of satisfaction from me, smashing act 3 harder and harder does, and I feel that this patch shows that blizzard recognizes that far more people are interested in my interpretation of MF - as a sidebar stat, not "the point of the game".
magic find is a dumb stat anyway. it doesn't actually increase the strength of your character which is why I never bothered with it. I want to pimp my character and have 100k dps, not slightly raise my chance to find rares.
I wonder where all the people are who agreed that solution #1 (MF cap) was the worst decision.
I wasn't the only one who thought that when they released that "here are some possible changes" blog.
I'm with you. I never felt the need to MF gear swap but I also see no reason to cap MF. Your MF being capped doesn't make mine any higher, I honestly don't care. Caps are silly.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Consider the source, is all I'm saying.
Everyone is allowed to have their opinion, and those opinion are valid for them...but consider the source. He doesn't exactly have a glowing track record of ever being even remotely objective, and embodies the gaming equivalent of "Fuck you, got's mine".
So when he calls people "lazy" because they didn't treat Diablo 3 like a second job, it's humorously silly but not entirely unexpected, given the source.
magic find is a dumb stat anyway. it doesn't actually increase the strength of your character which is why I never bothered with it. I want to pimp my character and have 100k dps, not slightly raise my chance to find rares.
We don't agree often Jars, but I find that in this thread our views typically are always aligned. :^:
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I wonder where all the people are who agreed that solution #1 (MF cap) was the worst decision.
I wasn't the only one who thought that when they released that "here are some possible changes" blog.
I'm with you. I never felt the need to MF gear swap but I also see no reason to cap MF. Your MF being capped doesn't make mine any higher, I honestly don't care. Caps are silly.
Yeah. If they added paragon with no cap? Awesome! Fantastic! Silly geese get 300 MF and I'm still able to progress through gear to 600 MF.
That's fine.
What isn't fine is punishing persons who spent time and effort amassing functional MF sets that are now completely worthless.
For those speaking of the MF% cap, can you educate me on the current maximum attainable % of MF you can get with maxed MF on every piece of gear? I will admit to being ignorant of this as I've never bothered to try and stack MF%
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I really doubt mf was supposed to be some end all stat anyway, it didn't even exist in diablo 1. things didn't get crazy until LOD when mf totals practically quadrupled
I'm of two minds in the mf change. On one hand, I spent about 100 million on a mf set that's only two pieces away from completion (helm and boots, 208 mf currently). This reduces the value of those pieces significantly.
On the other hand, I still have a big advantage for now and should theoretically gear faster and get paragon levels quickly, hopefully fast enough to transition my gear to killing for pvp.
I'm withholding judgment until we see how this plays out.
For those speaking of the MF% cap, can you educate me on the current maximum attainable % of MF you can get with maxed MF on every piece of gear? I will admit to being ignorant of this as I've never bothered to try and stack MF%
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
Games gain and lose subscribers for a lot of reasons. The numbers initially boomed during BC when the difficulty ceiling was still rather high, and then growth slowed down after WotLK where it was lowered further. They jumped again up to 12m for Catacylsm but since then the number has fallen to 9m.
None of this is evidence that making things easier or harder hurts the life of the game because, again, they go up and down for many reasons, but it is not true to say it gained subscribers as it got more accessible because it's as accessible as its ever been and it's below 2008 numbers.
Its initial success was accessibility, but top tier gear was far, far, far less accessible in Vanilla WoW than it is today, and in D3. Obviously there's a balance, and no one knows where that balance is.
For those speaking of the MF% cap, can you educate me on the current maximum attainable % of MF you can get with maxed MF on every piece of gear? I will admit to being ignorant of this as I've never bothered to try and stack MF%
It was around 417%
Is that including the NV buff or just from gear alone?
And can you include what your MF% is at atm without NV buff for comparison of max vs feasibly attainable through lots of play?
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
magic find is a dumb stat anyway. it doesn't actually increase the strength of your character which is why I never bothered with it. I want to pimp my character and have 100k dps, not slightly raise my chance to find rares.
We don't agree often Jars, but I find that in this thread our views typically are always aligned. :^:
I really doubt mf was supposed to be some end all stat anyway, it didn't even exist in diablo 1. things didn't get crazy until LOD when mf totals practically quadrupled
So, the relevant Diablo game to which we can compare D3 is the one that best supports your argument?
Because that seems to be what you're saying. We ignore LOD, because that doesn't help your position, and focus upon D1 and early D2?
I just want to understand what the rules are, here.
0
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
Games gain and lose subscribers for a lot of reasons. The numbers initially boomed during BC when the difficulty ceiling was still rather high, and then growth slowed down after WotLK where it was lowered further. They jumped again up to 12m for Catacylsm but since then the number has fallen to 9m.
None of this is evidence that making things easier or harder hurts the life of the game because, again, they go up and down for many reasons, but it is not true to say it gained subscribers as it got more accessible because it's as accessible as its ever been and it's below 2008 numbers.
Its initial success was accessibility, but top tier gear was far, far, far less accessible in Vanilla WoW than it is today, and in D3. Obviously there's a balance, and no one knows where that balance is.
People say this like it's a black and white fact, but I raided in WoW from vanilla on. I still have my full T2 and T3 sets from BWL and the original Naxx sitting in my "Void Locker" or whatever the fuck it's called (they were in my bank).
Getting the MC and BWL gear was not difficult, no more or less difficult than getting gear in WoTLK or Cata. Only Naxx was truly DIFFICULT, and much of that difficulty was purely gear check (hell, that's all BWL was, a huge gear check).
Gear was never difficult to obtain from an actual difficulty point of view. It was difficult to obtain because of the completely random nature (no tokens), and because you had to herd 40 people in to moving at approximately the same time when one of the early bosses used one of it's few abilities.
Raid content in WoW today is fundamentally more challenging and difficult to master than it ever was in Vanilla, but gear is easier to get. I was challenged far more by mechanics in Firelands and Dragon Soul than I ever was by anything in MC, BWL, the original (or updated) Naxx, SSC, Grulls, or even Ice Crown.
I'm of two minds in the mf change. On one hand, I spent about 100 million on a mf set that's only two pieces away from completion (helm and boots, 208 mf currently). This reduces the value of those pieces significantly.
On the other hand, I still have a big advantage for now and should theoretically gear faster and get paragon levels quickly, hopefully fast enough to transition my gear to killing for pvp.
I'm withholding judgment until we see how this plays out.
That is a good point... you current MF guys do have leg up on gearing up toward the level 100 Paragon. It also makes +XP boost gear mean something again...
Considering how long it'll take to get to level P100 I plan to get some MF gear shortly after the patch when everyone is dumping it because they think it's worthless, even though it's going to take me months to level Paragon.
What it is doing is removing MF as an endgame stat and letting you focus on stuff that helps you progress in Inferno. For those that were itemizing for that perfect balance of power and MF you can start to focus more on Power as you level.
I'd assume for Sensational and co. Inferno progression isn't an issue. The rest of the game for them is just efficiency and trying to get slightly better gear, and for the most part atm they're actually able to keep near-maximum power along with high MF because their gear is so good. Reaching maximum power for them is already attainable, so the only thing left to shoot for was better MF.
That's what I was trying to say. This change basically cuts off a whole tier of gear off the top end with nothing of substance in return. Why can't everyone benefit, have the paragon system without MF cap? Feels like people are cheering this on because they want to stick it to those who made it deeper into the gear game than they did.
I guess what I mostly don't understand is why they announced the cap. Why not let people like _J_ go to 600% MF but harshen the curve so that his extra 300 MF is minor. Like in D2, going from 300% MF to 1000% MF only gave you an extra 170% effective MF for rares, and less for sets and uniques.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
holy hell this might be the most entitled condescending bullshit i've ever read
the point of the game is to play it and have fun. guess what, for the vast majority of people minmaxing the shit out of a game's mechanics are not part of their definition of 'fun'. what you call 'lazily ambling through a game without any heed to the point' is what normal humans call 'playing it the normal way'.
have you ever seen the documentary the king of kong? because you remind me a lot of billy mitchell in this post
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
I wonder where all the people are who agreed that solution #1 (MF cap) was the worst decision.
I wasn't the only one who thought that when they released that "here are some possible changes" blog.
I'm with you. I never felt the need to MF gear swap but I also see no reason to cap MF. Your MF being capped doesn't make mine any higher, I honestly don't care. Caps are silly.
Yeah. If they added paragon with no cap? Awesome! Fantastic! Silly geese get 300 MF and I'm still able to progress through gear to 600 MF.
That's fine.
What isn't fine is punishing persons who spent time and effort amassing functional MF sets that are now completely worthless.
Fucking Blizzard.
I'm fine with it. Every complaint you make about how you think you now can't lord your mf % over the plebs anymore just makes me happier.
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Yes, those affixes will still make a piece more desirable. It's just a matter of how valuable the affixes are. You might not pay 5m extra to get the pickup radius, but you might pay 50k. CC reduction, +HP on globes, pickup radius, individual resist, HP regen no one ever cared about before because (1) You couldn't search for them and (2) There were much better affixes to look for. What's happening is a formerly important stat is getting bumped down the list and allowing some affixes that no one cared about previously show up on wearable pieces.
And heaven forbid a completely non competitive game be made a competition, where you spend any amount of time somewhere north of zero worrying about if your numbers are bigger than mine.
Also, it's always been a time sink. When I see your gear. I don't think "Wow, how thoughtful _J_ is, how efficient!". All I see is "He spent more time playing than me".
"OK, we're not increasing the level cap, but we're increasing your stats as if you were leveling. And we're calling it Paragon levels instead."
*sigh*
Why not just increase the level cap? Giving it a fancy name doesn't change the fact that you've just extended the grind another 99 levels. At what point will Inferno become easy? Even if you only gave 1 point to each stat per level, at some point the game will become trivial. How will they keep the game from being too easy?
Jeepers, I wonder if they even think this shit through sometimes.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
Removing MF isn't the thing that slays all thinking and choice from the gearing process or some such rubbish, it's just a symptom of the rotten gear/affix system.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
Because a separate leveling track is easier to balance and build and understand. It also makes more sense since Paragon levels are completely different from 1-60 levels.
As for too easy, that was never an issue in D2. They tried to make it one in D3 and people didn't like it. So they are changing the nature of endgame.
Don't worry _J_, soon Blizzard will come right to your door to punish you for being so good at D3. It's a new service they are offering for premium players.
I wonder if the Paragon levels mean that they will never increase the level cap. I thought one plan for expansions was to make the cap higher. With paragon does this mean that a player would keep their base level and paragon level, but base level increases to 70 and paragon increases to 120, but then your experience goes to base level, until you hit 70, and then it goes into paragon...
Yeah, this is a brilliant system.
I wasn't the only one who thought that when they released that "here are some possible changes" blog.
What do you think when you see this then? http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/pochuen-1188/
That gear with just 4600 elite kills is pretty efficient.
Uh, you just stop gaining XP towards your paragon levels and start gaining it towards normal levels till you max out again.
Easy peasy.
Also, this effectivly completly destroys the economy. Like, kills it dead.
The only thing that was making legendaries/great rares actually able to be purchased was the fact that they were not absolutly optimal.
You could still purchase great gear thats functional. Now?
100dex/70vit 70 all resist 50 million pst.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
"lazily ambled" because I focused on the "game" part of the loot skinner box with dps stats that actually made me feel like my character was progressing rather than modifying the relatively miniscule, relatively invisible chance to drop rares?
I really do understand that you find a lot of joy in balancing stats, but implying that everyone who didn't give a shit about what is honestly one of the least interesting stats in the game is lazy is simply off-base. getting more rares doesn't evoke a sense of satisfaction from me, smashing act 3 harder and harder does, and I feel that this patch shows that blizzard recognizes that far more people are interested in my interpretation of MF - as a sidebar stat, not "the point of the game".
:^:
I'm with you. I never felt the need to MF gear swap but I also see no reason to cap MF. Your MF being capped doesn't make mine any higher, I honestly don't care. Caps are silly.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
Consider the source, is all I'm saying.
Everyone is allowed to have their opinion, and those opinion are valid for them...but consider the source. He doesn't exactly have a glowing track record of ever being even remotely objective, and embodies the gaming equivalent of "Fuck you, got's mine".
So when he calls people "lazy" because they didn't treat Diablo 3 like a second job, it's humorously silly but not entirely unexpected, given the source.
We don't agree often Jars, but I find that in this thread our views typically are always aligned. :^:
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Yeah. If they added paragon with no cap? Awesome! Fantastic! Silly geese get 300 MF and I'm still able to progress through gear to 600 MF.
That's fine.
What isn't fine is punishing persons who spent time and effort amassing functional MF sets that are now completely worthless.
Fucking Blizzard.
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On the other hand, I still have a big advantage for now and should theoretically gear faster and get paragon levels quickly, hopefully fast enough to transition my gear to killing for pvp.
I'm withholding judgment until we see how this plays out.
It was around 417%
None of this is evidence that making things easier or harder hurts the life of the game because, again, they go up and down for many reasons, but it is not true to say it gained subscribers as it got more accessible because it's as accessible as its ever been and it's below 2008 numbers.
Its initial success was accessibility, but top tier gear was far, far, far less accessible in Vanilla WoW than it is today, and in D3. Obviously there's a balance, and no one knows where that balance is.
Is that including the NV buff or just from gear alone?
And can you include what your MF% is at atm without NV buff for comparison of max vs feasibly attainable through lots of play?
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There are already threads asking for Paragon levels to be account-wide, so that they don't have to farm for Paragon on every character.
I wonder if Gnome Tank started that thread...
Triple Agree.
So, the relevant Diablo game to which we can compare D3 is the one that best supports your argument?
Because that seems to be what you're saying. We ignore LOD, because that doesn't help your position, and focus upon D1 and early D2?
I just want to understand what the rules are, here.
People say this like it's a black and white fact, but I raided in WoW from vanilla on. I still have my full T2 and T3 sets from BWL and the original Naxx sitting in my "Void Locker" or whatever the fuck it's called (they were in my bank).
Getting the MC and BWL gear was not difficult, no more or less difficult than getting gear in WoTLK or Cata. Only Naxx was truly DIFFICULT, and much of that difficulty was purely gear check (hell, that's all BWL was, a huge gear check).
Gear was never difficult to obtain from an actual difficulty point of view. It was difficult to obtain because of the completely random nature (no tokens), and because you had to herd 40 people in to moving at approximately the same time when one of the early bosses used one of it's few abilities.
Raid content in WoW today is fundamentally more challenging and difficult to master than it ever was in Vanilla, but gear is easier to get. I was challenged far more by mechanics in Firelands and Dragon Soul than I ever was by anything in MC, BWL, the original (or updated) Naxx, SSC, Grulls, or even Ice Crown.
That is a good point... you current MF guys do have leg up on gearing up toward the level 100 Paragon. It also makes +XP boost gear mean something again...
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Wouldn't address MF gear swapping, which is what this is meant to do. I'd say it's fairly successful, in the long run. :P
Wow, you need to think more carefully about what you're saying here.
That's what I was trying to say. This change basically cuts off a whole tier of gear off the top end with nothing of substance in return. Why can't everyone benefit, have the paragon system without MF cap? Feels like people are cheering this on because they want to stick it to those who made it deeper into the gear game than they did.
What am I supposed to upgrade now, mf for ias on jewelry/gloves? A few points of dex? http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OnionSlicer-1236/hero/13121441
the point of the game is to play it and have fun. guess what, for the vast majority of people minmaxing the shit out of a game's mechanics are not part of their definition of 'fun'. what you call 'lazily ambling through a game without any heed to the point' is what normal humans call 'playing it the normal way'.
have you ever seen the documentary the king of kong? because you remind me a lot of billy mitchell in this post
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
I'm fine with it. Every complaint you make about how you think you now can't lord your mf % over the plebs anymore just makes me happier.