Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
I find this funny as just in the last two days we've had discussions with people making the point that D3 wasn't replayable at all because of skill respeccing.
Now, we're to believe it was infinitely replayable all along, but now that they are moving a stat most people find meh anyway, it's ruined.
For those speaking of the MF% cap, can you educate me on the current maximum attainable % of MF you can get with maxed MF on every piece of gear? I will admit to being ignorant of this as I've never bothered to try and stack MF%
It was around 417%
Is that including the NV buff or just from gear alone?
And can you include what your MF% is at atm without NV buff for comparison of max vs feasibly attainable through lots of play?
Max character MF is 287% (ignoring dual-wield three hundredth spear). You could get an extra 24% from having the Templar follower, so 311%. Then 5 Neph is +75%, so 386% max.
Basically they've lopped 11% off max MF, which is hardly a big deal. The problem is that the changes in 1.04 will make MF switching/MF idling way more optimal than those people who built a set with real stats and MF stats.
E: MF + stats is pretty trivial to get on some slots (the ones I have - boots, shoulders, pants, shield in particular) because there's fuckall else to get. You can get 100-150% with endgame Inferno stats for less than 10 million.
For those speaking of the MF% cap, can you educate me on the current maximum attainable % of MF you can get with maxed MF on every piece of gear? I will admit to being ignorant of this as I've never bothered to try and stack MF%
It was around 417%
Is that including the NV buff or just from gear alone?
And can you include what your MF% is at atm without NV buff for comparison of max vs feasibly attainable through lots of play?
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
And how many will ever reach said cap?
And how many of those, after having shown so much devotion in doing so, will then stop playing?
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
This. I'm a busy mofo with "real world" responsibilities; I only have so much time to devote to gaming - does that mean I'm any less entitled to have fun and earn cool shit because I can't sit on my ass all day and click through elite mob packs? It's still going to take someone like me forever to earn those paragon levels, so it's not like they're just handing us everything on a silver platter.
Hell, my highest toon is 59, and I bought this game on day one.
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
Yes, fits in well with other gear systems in d3 such as linearly inflating primary stats and resistances instead of %. They just can't wrap their heads around horizontal progression, it's all up up up! Numbers must go up! And then what? Only thing left to do is add MORE NUMBERS! See WoW expansions for details.
I guess what I mostly don't understand is why they announced the cap. Why not let people like _J_ go to 600% MF but harshen the curve so that his extra 300 MF is minor. Like in D2, going from 300% MF to 1000% MF only gave you an extra 170% effective MF for rares, and less for sets and uniques.
Yup. Let people who want MF have their MF. Let people who hate MF still have it (despite their not wanting it) but don't let them have the same quantity of MF.
I guess what I mostly don't understand is why they announced the cap. Why not let people like _J_ go to 600% MF but harshen the curve so that his extra 300 MF is minor. Like in D2, going from 300% MF to 1000% MF only gave you an extra 170% effective MF for rares, and less for sets and uniques.
Because it is much easier to tune around a hard cap. This change is actually very well done. It gives the D2 whiners a bone for progression based gameplay. It give more life to the game as people will want to see higher numbers. And after tuning it will allow for people to get better gear to drop... eventually. And it will allow people to focus on gearing instead of having sets. I like it.
I guess what I mostly don't understand is why they announced the cap. Why not let people like _J_ go to 600% MF but harshen the curve so that his extra 300 MF is minor. Like in D2, going from 300% MF to 1000% MF only gave you an extra 170% effective MF for rares, and less for sets and uniques.
Yup. Let people who want MF have their MF. Let people who hate MF still have it (despite their not wanting it) but don't let them have the same quantity of MF.
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
And how many will ever reach said cap?
Wait wait wait.
The game oughtn't include X, because the majority of persons will never obtain X?
Is that your argument? The game ought to only include things 99% of the player base can obtain?
I guess what I mostly don't understand is why they announced the cap. Why not let people like _J_ go to 600% MF but harshen the curve so that his extra 300 MF is minor. Like in D2, going from 300% MF to 1000% MF only gave you an extra 170% effective MF for rares, and less for sets and uniques.
Yup. Let people who want MF have their MF. Let people who hate MF still have it (despite their not wanting it) but don't let them have the same quantity of MF.
They still won't because I would venture that the majority of hardcore players stack MF. Casual players will never play enough to max their paragon or even get close.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
MF is one of those stats which lay bare one of the prime conflicts in this game - whether it's about killing monsters in new and interesting ways or getting the best loot possible within the shortest period of time. In the former context the skill makes no sense, but in the latter it is just another stat to maximize.
Reading through the patch notes, I can't help but feel like Blizzard is refusing to engage the elephant in the room. They want to "fix" end-game play without addressing any of the big issues head on. Instead, they are nibbling at the margins and hoping that eventually, over time, things will change enough where they can do something meaningful. Even the class changes feel marginal at best - they are simply balancing out the priority of skills rather than facing the underlying class mechanics. Particularly the Monk ones. Upping Seven-Sided Strike? Really? That's the problem with the class? Also, does anyone else feel like they should be talking to the WoW team that finally fixed Hunters how they should deal with Witch Doctors? The whole thing reads like deja vu all over again...
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
And how many will ever reach said cap?
Wait wait wait.
The game oughtn't include X, because the majority of persons will never obtain X?
Is that your argument? The game ought to only include things 99% of the player base can obtain?
No you silly silly goose.
My point is an actual response to his post, which was complaining about being able to "beat the game".
The number of people who will "beat Diablo 3" is so small, who the fuck cares. It's an edge case that's so rare as to be irrelevant.
shryke on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Welp, this has basically run it's course.
We're right back to "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it, and Blizzard and everyone are poopy heads".
So I'll see you in a few weeks thread. Hopefully 1.0.4 will be out then, and people who apparently hate the game so much have moved on so we can actually discuss the game in some reasonable space, rather than it turning in to War of the Roses between the people who hate the game and the people who like it.
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
Games gain and lose subscribers for a lot of reasons. The numbers initially boomed during BC when the difficulty ceiling was still rather high, and then growth slowed down after WotLK where it was lowered further. They jumped again up to 12m for Catacylsm but since then the number has fallen to 9m.
None of this is evidence that making things easier or harder hurts the life of the game because, again, they go up and down for many reasons, but it is not true to say it gained subscribers as it got more accessible because it's as accessible as its ever been and it's below 2008 numbers.
Its initial success was accessibility, but top tier gear was far, far, far less accessible in Vanilla WoW than it is today, and in D3. Obviously there's a balance, and no one knows where that balance is.
People say this like it's a black and white fact, but I raided in WoW from vanilla on. I still have my full T2 and T3 sets from BWL and the original Naxx sitting in my "Void Locker" or whatever the fuck it's called (they were in my bank).
Getting the MC and BWL gear was not difficult, no more or less difficult than getting gear in WoTLK or Cata. Only Naxx was truly DIFFICULT, and much of that difficulty was purely gear check (hell, that's all BWL was, a huge gear check).
Gear was never difficult to obtain from an actual difficulty point of view. It was difficult to obtain because of the completely random nature (no tokens), and because you had to herd 40 people in to moving at approximately the same time when one of the early bosses used one of it's few abilities.
Raid content in WoW today is fundamentally more challenging and difficult to master than it ever was in Vanilla, but gear is easier to get. I was challenged far more by mechanics in Firelands and Dragon Soul than I ever was by anything in MC, BWL, the original (or updated) Naxx, SSC, Grulls, or even Ice Crown.
You likely got your MC and BWL gear months after it was first available. WoW isn't a hard game to begin with so once everyone understands strategy and execution, it's easy. It was still a laborious process to be on a decent server, be in the best guild, farm and grind attempts (without Boss mods or guides) until you got somewhere.
The encounters today are much more complex than they were in Vanilla and BC, but it's still easier to get loot and progress today than it was back then. To put it another way, more people have access to top tier gear within a month of content release than ever before. I didn't say the game was harder then (although the first kills on broken Vashj are probably the most impressive thing that's ever happened in the game) but it was absolutely, 100% less accessible than it is today.
MF is one of those stats which lay bare one of the prime conflicts in this game - whether it's about killing monsters in new and interesting ways or getting the best loot possible within the shortest period of time. In the former context the skill makes no sense, but in the latter it is just another stat to maximize.
MF is one of those stats which lay bare one of the prime conflicts in this game - whether it's about killing monsters in new and interesting ways or getting the best loot possible within the shortest period of time. In the former context the skill makes no sense, but in the latter it is just another stat to maximize.
Reading through the patch notes, I can't help but feel like Blizzard is refusing to engage the elephant in the room. They want to "fix" end-game play without addressing any of the big issues head on. Instead, they are nibbling at the margins and hoping that eventually, over time, things will change enough where they can do something meaningful. Even the class changes feel marginal at best - they are simply balancing out the priority of skills rather than facing the underlying class mechanics. Particularly the Monk ones. Upping Seven-Sided Strike? Really? That's the problem with the class? Also, does anyone else feel like they should be talking to the WoW team that finally fixed Hunters how they should deal with Witch Doctors? The whole thing reads like deja vu all over again...
What is this "elephant in the room" then?
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I am pretty sure this is a classic case of overthinking a problem.
Destroying MF entierly is basically taking a nuke to a fly.
While also effectivly deleting a stat off of theoretically perfect gear.
Great for souless grindmonsters, terrible for people like me who like looking for that perfect piece with MF as well.
Uhh, it's actually the "souless grindmonsters" that will benefit from this the least, as they already have near perfect MF kill sets.
It's the rest of us, that aren't souless grindmonsters, that this will benefit, as we DON'T have perfect MF kill sets.
Right. Punish effort, reward laziness.
You searched the AH for MF/DPS gear and created a character who could farm and kill mobs in the same set? Hold it right there! We need to cap your ass.
You lazily ambled through the game focusing narrowly upon DPS-only items without giving any heed to the point of the game? Well, here you go, have 300% MF and GF.
Gah.
I lazily ambled through a game I paid for. It's not a job, it's a form of enter-fucking-tainment.
You really are probably the most out of touch person with actual humans I've ever met.
It's how he likes to play though. I've never cared about a MF set since they fixed the broken pony level, but the result was I built a max power DH and Monk with minimal MF and then got bored, because there's nothing else left. That's where _J_ will be now, and it's not his job to advocate for anyone else. He could be less assertive in telling other people they're "wrong", but I think it's fair that he doesn't like it.
It's the same thing WoW is going through. People complained that the bar to gear was lowered too much to accommodate the majority, and they're doing it further in MoP. Whether that actually hurts the life of the game, no one knows. But it's not an uncommon argument.
Actually we do know since the game only gained subscribers as it became more accessible. In fact, a huge reason for it's initial success was it's accessibility.
Games gain and lose subscribers for a lot of reasons. The numbers initially boomed during BC when the difficulty ceiling was still rather high, and then growth slowed down after WotLK where it was lowered further. They jumped again up to 12m for Catacylsm but since then the number has fallen to 9m.
None of this is evidence that making things easier or harder hurts the life of the game because, again, they go up and down for many reasons, but it is not true to say it gained subscribers as it got more accessible because it's as accessible as its ever been and it's below 2008 numbers.
Its initial success was accessibility, but top tier gear was far, far, far less accessible in Vanilla WoW than it is today, and in D3. Obviously there's a balance, and no one knows where that balance is.
People say this like it's a black and white fact, but I raided in WoW from vanilla on. I still have my full T2 and T3 sets from BWL and the original Naxx sitting in my "Void Locker" or whatever the fuck it's called (they were in my bank).
Getting the MC and BWL gear was not difficult, no more or less difficult than getting gear in WoTLK or Cata. Only Naxx was truly DIFFICULT, and much of that difficulty was purely gear check (hell, that's all BWL was, a huge gear check).
Gear was never difficult to obtain from an actual difficulty point of view. It was difficult to obtain because of the completely random nature (no tokens), and because you had to herd 40 people in to moving at approximately the same time when one of the early bosses used one of it's few abilities.
Raid content in WoW today is fundamentally more challenging and difficult to master than it ever was in Vanilla, but gear is easier to get. I was challenged far more by mechanics in Firelands and Dragon Soul than I ever was by anything in MC, BWL, the original (or updated) Naxx, SSC, Grulls, or even Ice Crown.
You likely got your MC and BWL gear months after it was first available. WoW isn't a hard game to begin with so once everyone understands strategy and execution, it's easy.
The encounters today are much more complex than they were in Vanilla and BC, but it's still easier to get loot and progress today than it was back then. To put it another way, more people have access to top tier gear within a month of content release than they did before. I didn't say the game was harder then (although the first kills on broken Vashj are probably the most impressive thing that's ever happened in the game) but it was absolutely, 100% less accessible than it is today.
I don't disagree, I just hate the idea that it was "hard" to get...and no, I made my first MC run around five weeks in, when MC was still very broken and half the encounters didn't work. We had a GM with us on our first Majordomo kill because we were trying to sow them a bug.
We're right back to "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it, and Blizzard and everyone are poopy heads".
So I'll see you in a few weeks thread. Hopefully 1.0.4 will be out then, and people who apparently hate the game so much have moved on so we can actually discuss the game in some reasonable space, rather than it turning in to War of the Roses between the people who hate the game and the people who like it.
Are you quoting yourself? Because you're the only one saying "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it". You don't like MF on gear so HOORAY! for blizzard removing it, and fuck everyone who liked it. There was a thousand ways to reward players who don't stack MF without destroying this aspect of the game for those who like it.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
MF is one of those stats which lay bare one of the prime conflicts in this game - whether it's about killing monsters in new and interesting ways or getting the best loot possible within the shortest period of time. In the former context the skill makes no sense, but in the latter it is just another stat to maximize.
The point of the game is efficiency... Killing monsters as quickly as possible to maximize your time to find the drops you want. That is the game.
You...you do realize that quote blows all kinds of holes in your argument, right? You might want to actual read it a couple of times before you quote it as a "told you so" for your views about MF, because that quote basically says in no uncertain terms that MF is pointless and not very Diablo like.
Getting a DPS magic find set is what you would call horizontal progression. Your bar dosent go up, your dps does not go up. But you ability to find items increases.
They COMPLETLY REMOVED THAT.
They replace it with a vertical progression. You climb the ladder, ride the treadmill and you are done. Congradulations, here is your prize.
Within the previous system, it is nearly impossible to have a perfect character. You have a nearly infinite replayability.
Now? Hit 100. Hit maximum possible dps. Congrats. You have beaten Diablo 3.
Yes, fits in well with other gear systems in d3 such as linearly inflating primary stats and resistances instead of %. They just can't wrap their heads around horizontal progression, it's all up up up! Numbers must go up! And then what? Only thing left to do is add MORE NUMBERS! See WoW expansions for details.
This idea of "horizontal progression" doesn't make a lick of sense.
When you are increasing your mf while not loosing DPS, you are still progressing "vertically". You are still getting better gear because that's the only way to increase you mf without sacrificing DPS. Maintaining your DPS while upping your magic-find can only occur if you have sub-optimal gear.
All they've done is shift some of that progression from gear to character and added what is essentially diminishing returns on mf.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
We're right back to "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it, and Blizzard and everyone are poopy heads".
So I'll see you in a few weeks thread. Hopefully 1.0.4 will be out then, and people who apparently hate the game so much have moved on so we can actually discuss the game in some reasonable space, rather than it turning in to War of the Roses between the people who hate the game and the people who like it.
Are you quoting yourself? Because you're the only one saying "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it". You don't like MF on gear so HOORAY! for blizzard removing it, and fuck everyone who liked it. There was a thousand ways to reward players who don't stack MF without destroying this aspect of the game for those who like it.
Actually, I was speaking DIRECTLY to you and _J_, who are notorious for this kind of stuff. Any change that doesn't support your world view of Diablo is shit, and Blizzard is shit, and they are dumb and poopy heads.
People who have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is terrible.
People who do not have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is fine.
Is anyone actually arguing outside of their own self-interest and gaming preference?
I'm ok with it provided it's sufficiently difficult to get paragon levels so MF gear isn't rendered completely worthless. I think that is the case considering how much my brother plays (and he plays more than most) and how much faster I have geared my character compared to him (and that's with me giving him about 25 million worth of gear). I would rather have a larger player base to buy my loot than a ghost town filled with a tiny number of perfectly optimized characters.
We're right back to "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it, and Blizzard and everyone are poopy heads".
So I'll see you in a few weeks thread. Hopefully 1.0.4 will be out then, and people who apparently hate the game so much have moved on so we can actually discuss the game in some reasonable space, rather than it turning in to War of the Roses between the people who hate the game and the people who like it.
Are you quoting yourself? Because you're the only one saying "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it". You don't like MF on gear so HOORAY! for blizzard removing it, and fuck everyone who liked it. There was a thousand ways to reward players who don't stack MF without destroying this aspect of the game for those who like it.
Actually, I was speaking DIRECTLY to you and _J_, who are notorious for this kind of stuff. Any change that doesn't support your world view of Diablo is shit, and Blizzard is shit, and they are dumb and poopy heads.
Pot. Kettle. Black. Look in a mirror.
Where did I say "fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it"? WHERE? QUOTE ME. I NEVER said that, you're just going for character assassination because you've run out of arguments. Let's not go there anymore.
Let me ask you, how are you personally benefiting from them adding an MF cap? What is it about MF cap that is making your game more fun for you that makes you like this change. It has NO effect on you whatsoever, all it does is screw players who liked MF, is that what makes you happy?
I'm assuming this was done by Blizzard to get people who stopped playing to play again (like me) and to convince the non-hardcore people to continue playing. I believe they will succeed in both respects due to all the great stuff I'm reading about 1.0.4 that will change/be added. Everyone who says that what they are doing with MF/Paragon is aimed at the majority are correct. And why would they not want to appease the majority, since they are in business to make money? Unless they think the RMAH can sustain itself with only super hardcore people indefinitely, which they obviously aren't betting on.
If I had sunk all the time in to get a MF set like _J_, I'd be upset too. Now I'll just sit back and watch him go slowly more insane
Heck, I may go in tonight and play for the first time in a month, even before the patch comes out!
Smoogy-1689
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
And if it's not a trade off, then all this talk of "interesting gear choices" is BS, and you're really just mad they are nerfing your gear.
People who have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is terrible.
People who do not have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is fine.
Is anyone actually arguing outside of their own self-interest and gaming preference?
I'm ok with it provided it's sufficiently difficult to get paragon levels so MF gear isn't rendered completely worthless. I think that is the case considering how much my brother plays (and he plays more than most) and how much faster I have geared my character compared to him (and that's with me giving him about 25 million worth of gear). I would rather have a larger player base to buy my loot than a ghost town filled with a tiny number of perfectly optimized characters.
It may not be completely worthless at the start, but eventually it will get to a point of being worthless.
If we're looking at D3 in terms of the D2 timeframe (persons continue to play it 12 years after release) then you have to consider how the MF cap will impact gameplay 12 years from now. So, once you're at paragon level 100 and have MF cap, and most other players are at Paragon level 100.
This is one of the problems: Blizzard keeps changing the game to compliment the playstyles of persons who will not play the game for 12 years, rather than focus upon giving its core playerbase what they want.
They seem to want to grow the franchise by completely redefining what the franchise is.
This may sound awfully Molyneaux-ish, but I hope Paragon levels eventually make a visual impact on your character, and not just in getting a dorky portrait. Your character can start to look darker and more corrupted like The Wanderer, the more you play the game. And swirly things. Definitely swirly things around your feet.
People who have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is terrible.
People who do not have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is fine.
Is anyone actually arguing outside of their own self-interest and gaming preference?
I very likely have higher-quality gear than you overall and MF is simply the most boring stat in the game. it never comes down to the binary question of whether I have the gear or not because I never wanted it; it's not scarcity or rarity that keeps me away from the gear, it's preference. MF has zero positive effect on a given character and all effect on invisible rolls that most people don't invest in hard enough to ever see or play often/hard enough to tease out. I even have a tangible reason to care, because I plan on farming nothing but act 3, and I simply can't bring myself to because the ultimate effect is that I'm nerfing my actual character just to affect the game's rate of rewarding me. it's so meta and ridiculous, and even then I don't mind people having MF or maybe picking up the occasional solid MF piece, it's just ridiculously overemphasized. this cap hurts almost nobody, numbers-wise, and encourages people to invest in other stats that actually help them die less and kill harder...you know, the game part of the loot generator we're all invested in.
People who have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is terrible.
People who do not have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is fine.
Is anyone actually arguing outside of their own self-interest and gaming preference?
I'd say it's more like this:
People who want find loot
1. AH is great but needs more search! Also, please fix inflation. And cheating/duping/etc.
2. MF gear/buffs just add more fun because it means more stuff for me to min-max.
3. An MF cap is terrible because it removes one of the few things in this game that actually feels like end-game progression.
People who want to kill stuff
1. AH what?
1a. Ugh I started using the AH and now this game blows.
1b. I've never touched the AH and I don't understand what all the fuss is about imma go kill stuff.
2. What is this MF stat? How does it even work? You know what I don't even I'm just gonna ignore it and go kill stuff.
3. MF cap what? Can you guys just fix it so the game is actually fun and not just stupid hard and I can use more than one build?
Everyone else seems to fall within a spectrum in between, where they get into fits about how MF-type stuff "infringes" upon their preferred way of playing the game, much like the whole AH debate. Or the lootfinders feel like the lowly pleb players are just running around doing god-knows-what with their horrible gear and builds so who cares what their opinion is on the game. If you want to play your way while ignoring the rest then you're able to do so, but for many there are some pretty big psychological hurdles to overcome in the process.
Question: Why don't they just make the MF level progression indefinite up to some super high number, and get rid of Nephalem Valor entirely?
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The entire point of this change is to make it sting less when they eventually move MF entirely off of gear and into other systems.
I find this funny as just in the last two days we've had discussions with people making the point that D3 wasn't replayable at all because of skill respeccing.
Now, we're to believe it was infinitely replayable all along, but now that they are moving a stat most people find meh anyway, it's ruined.
Max character MF is 287% (ignoring dual-wield three hundredth spear). You could get an extra 24% from having the Templar follower, so 311%. Then 5 Neph is +75%, so 386% max.
Basically they've lopped 11% off max MF, which is hardly a big deal. The problem is that the changes in 1.04 will make MF switching/MF idling way more optimal than those people who built a set with real stats and MF stats.
E: MF + stats is pretty trivial to get on some slots (the ones I have - boots, shoulders, pants, shield in particular) because there's fuckall else to get. You can get 100-150% with endgame Inferno stats for less than 10 million.
That's everything, as I understand it.
Amulet: 40
Helm: 20+31=51
Shoulder: 20
Chest: 20
Glove: 20
Bracer: 20
Belt: 20
Pants: 20
Rings: 18 * 2 = 36
Boots: 20
---
267
Then we have the weapon and offhand.
Shield: 20
Class offhand: 18
Weapon: Sun Keeper - 25%
Then add in the NV, and the MF you get from a follower.
Edit: Me.
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And how many will ever reach said cap?
And how many of those, after having shown so much devotion in doing so, will then stop playing?
This. I'm a busy mofo with "real world" responsibilities; I only have so much time to devote to gaming - does that mean I'm any less entitled to have fun and earn cool shit because I can't sit on my ass all day and click through elite mob packs? It's still going to take someone like me forever to earn those paragon levels, so it's not like they're just handing us everything on a silver platter.
Hell, my highest toon is 59, and I bought this game on day one.
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Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
Yes, fits in well with other gear systems in d3 such as linearly inflating primary stats and resistances instead of %. They just can't wrap their heads around horizontal progression, it's all up up up! Numbers must go up! And then what? Only thing left to do is add MORE NUMBERS! See WoW expansions for details.
Yup. Let people who want MF have their MF. Let people who hate MF still have it (despite their not wanting it) but don't let them have the same quantity of MF.
So max MF on gear at the start has been reduced by ... ~10%?
Because it is much easier to tune around a hard cap. This change is actually very well done. It gives the D2 whiners a bone for progression based gameplay. It give more life to the game as people will want to see higher numbers. And after tuning it will allow for people to get better gear to drop... eventually. And it will allow people to focus on gearing instead of having sets. I like it.
Yup. Let people who want MF have their MF. Let people who hate MF still have it (despite their not wanting it) but don't let them have the same quantity of MF.
Wait wait wait.
The game oughtn't include X, because the majority of persons will never obtain X?
Is that your argument? The game ought to only include things 99% of the player base can obtain?
They still won't because I would venture that the majority of hardcore players stack MF. Casual players will never play enough to max their paragon or even get close.
Reading through the patch notes, I can't help but feel like Blizzard is refusing to engage the elephant in the room. They want to "fix" end-game play without addressing any of the big issues head on. Instead, they are nibbling at the margins and hoping that eventually, over time, things will change enough where they can do something meaningful. Even the class changes feel marginal at best - they are simply balancing out the priority of skills rather than facing the underlying class mechanics. Particularly the Monk ones. Upping Seven-Sided Strike? Really? That's the problem with the class? Also, does anyone else feel like they should be talking to the WoW team that finally fixed Hunters how they should deal with Witch Doctors? The whole thing reads like deja vu all over again...
No you silly silly goose.
My point is an actual response to his post, which was complaining about being able to "beat the game".
The number of people who will "beat Diablo 3" is so small, who the fuck cares. It's an edge case that's so rare as to be irrelevant.
We're right back to "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it, and Blizzard and everyone are poopy heads".
So I'll see you in a few weeks thread. Hopefully 1.0.4 will be out then, and people who apparently hate the game so much have moved on so we can actually discuss the game in some reasonable space, rather than it turning in to War of the Roses between the people who hate the game and the people who like it.
People who have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is terrible.
People who do not have MF/DPS gear: Capping MF is fine.
Is anyone actually arguing outside of their own self-interest and gaming preference?
The encounters today are much more complex than they were in Vanilla and BC, but it's still easier to get loot and progress today than it was back then. To put it another way, more people have access to top tier gear within a month of content release than ever before. I didn't say the game was harder then (although the first kills on broken Vashj are probably the most impressive thing that's ever happened in the game) but it was absolutely, 100% less accessible than it is today.
Accessibility != difficulty
If only we had an answer to that question
What is this "elephant in the room" then?
I don't disagree, I just hate the idea that it was "hard" to get...and no, I made my first MC run around five weeks in, when MC was still very broken and half the encounters didn't work. We had a GM with us on our first Majordomo kill because we were trying to sow them a bug.
Outside of maybe Jibba and Constrictor, pretty much :P
Are you quoting yourself? Because you're the only one saying "The way I play the game is right! And fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it". You don't like MF on gear so HOORAY! for blizzard removing it, and fuck everyone who liked it. There was a thousand ways to reward players who don't stack MF without destroying this aspect of the game for those who like it.
You...you do realize that quote blows all kinds of holes in your argument, right? You might want to actual read it a couple of times before you quote it as a "told you so" for your views about MF, because that quote basically says in no uncertain terms that MF is pointless and not very Diablo like.
This idea of "horizontal progression" doesn't make a lick of sense.
When you are increasing your mf while not loosing DPS, you are still progressing "vertically". You are still getting better gear because that's the only way to increase you mf without sacrificing DPS. Maintaining your DPS while upping your magic-find can only occur if you have sub-optimal gear.
All they've done is shift some of that progression from gear to character and added what is essentially diminishing returns on mf.
Actually, I was speaking DIRECTLY to you and _J_, who are notorious for this kind of stuff. Any change that doesn't support your world view of Diablo is shit, and Blizzard is shit, and they are dumb and poopy heads.
Pot. Kettle. Black. Look in a mirror.
I don't think a cap is necessary, just give it DR. I have zero pieces of MF gear.
I'm ok with it provided it's sufficiently difficult to get paragon levels so MF gear isn't rendered completely worthless. I think that is the case considering how much my brother plays (and he plays more than most) and how much faster I have geared my character compared to him (and that's with me giving him about 25 million worth of gear). I would rather have a larger player base to buy my loot than a ghost town filled with a tiny number of perfectly optimized characters.
It doesn't. It's the dumbest quote possible to quote when talking about MF being a Diablo like stat.
MF gear doesn't slow your kill rate if you buy good MF gear.
Unless MF is a stat that does not take the place of another stat on gear, it by definition slows your kill rate.
That's ... that's the entire point of MF. It's a trade-off between kill speed and loot quality.
Where did I say "fuck everyone else who plays the game, because it should be the way I want it"? WHERE? QUOTE ME. I NEVER said that, you're just going for character assassination because you've run out of arguments. Let's not go there anymore.
Let me ask you, how are you personally benefiting from them adding an MF cap? What is it about MF cap that is making your game more fun for you that makes you like this change. It has NO effect on you whatsoever, all it does is screw players who liked MF, is that what makes you happy?
If I had sunk all the time in to get a MF set like _J_, I'd be upset too. Now I'll just sit back and watch him go slowly more insane
Heck, I may go in tonight and play for the first time in a month, even before the patch comes out!
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It may not be completely worthless at the start, but eventually it will get to a point of being worthless.
If we're looking at D3 in terms of the D2 timeframe (persons continue to play it 12 years after release) then you have to consider how the MF cap will impact gameplay 12 years from now. So, once you're at paragon level 100 and have MF cap, and most other players are at Paragon level 100.
This is one of the problems: Blizzard keeps changing the game to compliment the playstyles of persons who will not play the game for 12 years, rather than focus upon giving its core playerbase what they want.
They seem to want to grow the franchise by completely redefining what the franchise is.
And you're happy that they're making your playstyle better.
I'm not sure why you think you're allowed to be happy but i'm not allowed to be upset. They did something that helped you and harmed me.
Why should I be pleased?
I very likely have higher-quality gear than you overall and MF is simply the most boring stat in the game. it never comes down to the binary question of whether I have the gear or not because I never wanted it; it's not scarcity or rarity that keeps me away from the gear, it's preference. MF has zero positive effect on a given character and all effect on invisible rolls that most people don't invest in hard enough to ever see or play often/hard enough to tease out. I even have a tangible reason to care, because I plan on farming nothing but act 3, and I simply can't bring myself to because the ultimate effect is that I'm nerfing my actual character just to affect the game's rate of rewarding me. it's so meta and ridiculous, and even then I don't mind people having MF or maybe picking up the occasional solid MF piece, it's just ridiculously overemphasized. this cap hurts almost nobody, numbers-wise, and encourages people to invest in other stats that actually help them die less and kill harder...you know, the game part of the loot generator we're all invested in.
and then we get back to this dichotomy of:
"MF gear is great! - Demon Hunter"
"MF gear is miserably overpriced and hilariously difficult to find correct item budgeting for! - Barbarian"
seriously, fuck magic find.
I'd say it's more like this:
People who want find loot
1. AH is great but needs more search! Also, please fix inflation. And cheating/duping/etc.
2. MF gear/buffs just add more fun because it means more stuff for me to min-max.
3. An MF cap is terrible because it removes one of the few things in this game that actually feels like end-game progression.
People who want to kill stuff
1. AH what?
1a. Ugh I started using the AH and now this game blows.
1b. I've never touched the AH and I don't understand what all the fuss is about imma go kill stuff.
2. What is this MF stat? How does it even work? You know what I don't even I'm just gonna ignore it and go kill stuff.
3. MF cap what? Can you guys just fix it so the game is actually fun and not just stupid hard and I can use more than one build?
Everyone else seems to fall within a spectrum in between, where they get into fits about how MF-type stuff "infringes" upon their preferred way of playing the game, much like the whole AH debate. Or the lootfinders feel like the lowly pleb players are just running around doing god-knows-what with their horrible gear and builds so who cares what their opinion is on the game. If you want to play your way while ignoring the rest then you're able to do so, but for many there are some pretty big psychological hurdles to overcome in the process.
Question: Why don't they just make the MF level progression indefinite up to some super high number, and get rid of Nephalem Valor entirely?