Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2018
Yeah the performance is almost impossible to pull out from the context. The rules and the game and the player pools are completely different - to normal people it may not seem like a big deal, but at the level of play we are discussing, small things matter a great deal.
So while you can make broad generalizations like "the best players of a certain era would probably be at least above average if not very good in other eras", that's not the same thing as saying something specific like "the Dream Team is always going to beat the 2018 Warriors in today's rules".
Like, I'm pretty sure that Wilt Chamberlain would still be one of the all-time greats regardless of era, based purely on his physical prowess. But does that mean he would have an easier time defending Steph Curry than he would Michael Jordan? How is his game impacted in the high-octane no-hand-check era vs. the man-to-man illegal-defense rule?
Jordan, for all his accolades as perhaps the GOAT, was never a great or prolific 3-point shooter. Would that impact his value in today's NBA? Entire positional skill set requirements have altered significantly since Jordan's time - there are players today who are considered mediocre or are out of the league entirely because they play the PF/C position but can't switch on defense and can't shoot the 3, and yet many of those players would be considered fantastic in Jordan's era. Even small forwards are now prioritized more for their 3P% than nearly any other fundamental skill.
What about Draymond? Would he be better in a no-zone defense because he can lock down literally anyone and not have to worry about modern offensive schemes, or would he be worse because he would be less able to leverage that skill set?
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Not to mention - how much better would players in earlier eras be with today’s advances in fitness and nutrition? I have to think if 3pt shooting had been focused on to the degree it is now, players before would’ve been better at it
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
1-Magic Johnson
2-Michael Jordan
3-Larry Bird
4-Charles Barkley
5-Patrick Ewing
Bench
1-John Stockton
2-Clyde Drexler
3-Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullen
4-Karl Malone, Christian Laettner(remember this guy?)
5-David Robinson
Those are matchups at every position that no regular team ever can handle, I’m sorry. A great defensive team can possibly contain one or two options at a time but not the other 8 or 9 threats constantly coming at them all game. And then if for some reason this team can’t find the bucket, they are well equipped to turn on the lockdown defense of their own at every position for the full time of the game.
Maybe I’ve got a bit of rose colored glasses about the game played in my youth, I just can’t wrap my head around an argument thinking that any regular squad could come close to challenging their supremacy.
so lets look at the best shooter on the dream team Larry Bird
the guy shot .376 from three point range during the regular season and 0.321 during playoffs
compare that to curry who shoots 0.436 during the season and 0.408 during playoffs
even if we were to take larry at his best season in 1984-1985 where he shot 0.427, 2011-2012 steph curry still outshoots him at 0.455
there's a reason people call curry unironically the best shooter to ever play the game
it doesn't matter how many times jordan can jam it down draymond's throat, if they can't keep up with the splash bros (larry legend is really the only one that's comparable), the point differential will just keep growing as it always does against every opponent they face that sucks at 3s
You know what blows my mind? Patrick Ewing was on the Dream Team, and Olajuwon was not.
By 92 birds back was bad enough that he really didn't merit being on the team either, unless you are putting him there for the express purpose of talking shit on the court.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
so lets look at the best shooter on the dream team Larry Bird
the guy shot .376 from three point range during the regular season and 0.321 during playoffs
compare that to curry who shoots 0.436 during the season and 0.408 during playoffs
even if we were to take larry at his best season in 1984-1985 where he shot 0.427, 2011-2012 steph curry still outshoots him at 0.455
there's a reason people call curry unironically the best shooter to ever play the game
it doesn't matter how many times jordan can jam it down draymond's throat, if they can't keep up with the splash bros (larry legend is really the only one that's comparable), the point differential will just keep growing as it always does against every opponent they face that sucks at 3s
Are we just magically transporting them to play each other or are they growing up in different eras
The league didn’t even have a 3 pt line until birds rookie year - he wouldn’t have practiced them religiously like curry did. and it was like the mlb with strikeouts. Taking 3s had a stigma
Unless you think everyone in the world magically got inherently better at 3s since the 80s
I think the modern warriors could defend the dream team pretty well, if they were playing under the modern (lack of) illegal defense rules. They'd pack the lane and overload the isolation side and the dream team doesn't have enough shooting to break them out of that alignment
on offense they'd pull barkley/ewing/robinson into a pick and roll and light them on fire, same way they do with any modern team that plays a true center or plodding forward (shout to kevin love.) What'd be interesting is if the DT rolled out a 'small' lineup, something like jordan/pippen/drexler, with magic playing point and (I guess?) malone playing 'center.' If that team gets the benefit of 1990s-era hand checking they'd have a good chance I think
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it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
If the dream team goes small their lineup is probably
1-Stockton
2-Jordan
3-Pippen
4-Bird
5-Magic
That lineup will do pretty well defensively against the Warriors and is virtually unstoppable offensively.
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KasynI'm not saying I don't like our chances.She called me the master.Registered Userregular
edited July 2018
I don't see how you can say they would be "virtually unstoppable offensively." None of those players has ever seen a player or defender with the speed and length of a KD, and as was pointed out earlier, even the best shooters from that era have pretty pedestrian figures compared to the modern standards of what a good shooter is. Plenty of limitations for Draymond & co. to exploit, and they'd have to compete with shooters of a caliber they've never even come close to dealing with.
On the other end, only about 2-3 of the players in that lineup would be relevant defensive forces in that matchup, the rest would be treading water to borderline defensive liabilities against a collection of so many of the best offensive players in the modern league. I can't even really imagine how Pippen would deal with Durant consistently, whereas I could definitely see how the Warriors could herd Jordan or Bird into bad 2s and just choke them out through the sheer mismatch of scoring efficiency.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The Warriors have arguably the best pure shooter in the league on their team in Klay Thompson. They also have undisputably the actual best shooter in the entire history of the NBA in Steph Curry. Oh and that guy who refused the awesome nickname of the Slim Reaper.
I think it would be close and depends entirely on the rules you are using more than anything else.
The Warriors have arguably the best pure shooter in the league on their team in Klay Thompson. They also have undisputably the actual best shooter in the entire history of the NBA in Steph Curry. Oh and that guy who refused the awesome nickname of the Slim Reaper.
I think it would be close and depends entirely on the rules you are using more than anything else.
It's two different eras of players pushing theirselves to different ideals is part of the problem.
Like Larry Byrd is probably one of the most competitive people to walk the face of the Earth and could only be stopped occasionally by Magic Johnson one of the most talented players - and maybe the most direct analogue to Lebron- to ever play the game.
Micheal Jordan was a crazy person and made Byrd look like he got up at Noon every day and drove to practice in his pajamas.
These guys would all be great players today.
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You know what blows my mind? Patrick Ewing was on the Dream Team, and Olajuwon was not.
He hadn’t become a US citizen yet, so not eligible. Otherwise, yeah, he’d have been an improvement over Ewing.
Similarly, they should have totally had Shaq instead of Laettner. Like, wtf.
I mean Shaq would have gotten about as much playing time as Laettner, honestly. Is the token college player going to get playing time over Ewing/Robinson or Malone/Barkley? Shaq is certainly one of the most effective players in the history of the NBA, but I hesitate to say he was one of the most skilled (he couldn't even hit 53% of his free throws over his NBA career). And Shaq before playing a single NBA game was just raw potential who could have very easily flamed out.
Also good point about Olajuwon not being a US citizen, I had completely forgotten about that.
I was listening to some random sports radio and learned:
- Toronto just (like days ago??) told DeRozan they weren't going to trade him
- Kawhi was sort of in the dark about the trade as well?
- Toronto could possibly flip him to LA but why not just play a year with him and see if they make the finals, yknow? Unless he's a shitter and like, doesn't do his physical or something dumb like that
But then again, now that the West is briefly stacked with Lebron's team and the Warriors, the Spurs choosing to tank now might be a totally viable long-term choice.
Yeah OKC and San Antonio both made out pretty well in pretty tough situations. I feel bad for Demar, but I bet San Antonio's gonna embrace him hard, so that should help.
Gonna be some fun crowd reactions the first time the Spurs and Raps play in SA and Toronto.
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KasynI'm not saying I don't like our chances.She called me the master.Registered Userregular
You know what blows my mind? Patrick Ewing was on the Dream Team, and Olajuwon was not.
He hadn’t become a US citizen yet, so not eligible. Otherwise, yeah, he’d have been an improvement over Ewing.
Similarly, they should have totally had Shaq instead of Laettner. Like, wtf.
I mean Shaq would have gotten about as much playing time as Laettner, honestly. Is the token college player going to get playing time over Ewing/Robinson or Malone/Barkley? Shaq is certainly one of the most effective players in the history of the NBA, but I hesitate to say he was one of the most skilled (he couldn't even hit 53% of his free throws over his NBA career). And Shaq before playing a single NBA game was just raw potential who could have very easily flamed out.
Also good point about Olajuwon not being a US citizen, I had completely forgotten about that.
Ever see videos of young Shaq? He's actually shockingly agile, it's great. I don't think the concern was so much that he was only raw potential at the time, but Laettner just had a more complete résumé and was closer to the center of the national consciousness at the time. May as well go for that if you're just dropping in the token college player who in either case wouldn't be expected to do much.
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
edited July 2018
Spurs signed Dante Cunningham, a little more shoring up of our thin forward corps.
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FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
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The Suns finally fired their GM, every Spur is hurt, and Butler still hasn't been traded. The Celtics looked awful in preseason. Fultz isn't afraid to shoot, but Simmons still is.
Playoff predictions:
1 TOR
2 PHI
3 MIL
4 BOS
5 IND
6 WAS
7 MIA
8 DET
The Suns finally fired their GM, every Spur is hurt, and Butler still hasn't been traded. The Celtics looked awful in preseason. Fultz isn't afraid to shoot, but Simmons still is.
Playoff predictions:
1 TOR
2 PHI
3 MIL
4 BOS
5 IND
6 WAS
7 MIA
8 DET
Miami will of course climb if they get Butler.
1 GSW
2 LAL
3 HOU
4 UTA
5 OKC
6 DEN
7 LAC
8 SAS
LAL above houston? Shit lakers above, utah/okc/NO/por? You been smoking something my friend. Lebron is good, but he ain't that good.
Also how did the clippers get on that list. Do they even have a single all-star left on that team?
And how are the celtics not the far and away #1 in the east. They took the cavs to 7 without two of their best players. They dominated philly (without two of their best players).
You have some bold predictions there.
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"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
Everyone talks about GS being unbeatable, but houston was one anomalous quarter away from doing it.
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
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KasynI'm not saying I don't like our chances.She called me the master.Registered Userregular
edited October 2018
Yeah but he didn't say Houston, he said Denver.
Also, one could (and I know it might sound ridiculous) credibly argue that the games that took Houston that close to taking the series were themselves extremely anomalous. GS pretty much abandoned its longstanding identity and took on an inferior version of the game that the Rockets optimized.
GS definitely isn't unbeatable, but I think they're definitely not as vulnerable as that series made them look, either.
The Suns finally fired their GM, every Spur is hurt, and Butler still hasn't been traded. The Celtics looked awful in preseason. Fultz isn't afraid to shoot, but Simmons still is.
Playoff predictions:
1 TOR
2 PHI
3 MIL
4 BOS
5 IND
6 WAS
7 MIA
8 DET
Miami will of course climb if they get Butler.
1 GSW
2 LAL
3 HOU
4 UTA
5 OKC
6 DEN
7 LAC
8 SAS
LAL above houston? Shit lakers above, utah/okc/NO/por? You been smoking something my friend. Lebron is good, but he ain't that good.
Also how did the clippers get on that list. Do they even have a single all-star left on that team?
And how are the celtics not the far and away #1 in the east. They took the cavs to 7 without two of their best players. They dominated philly (without two of their best players).
Posts
So while you can make broad generalizations like "the best players of a certain era would probably be at least above average if not very good in other eras", that's not the same thing as saying something specific like "the Dream Team is always going to beat the 2018 Warriors in today's rules".
Like, I'm pretty sure that Wilt Chamberlain would still be one of the all-time greats regardless of era, based purely on his physical prowess. But does that mean he would have an easier time defending Steph Curry than he would Michael Jordan? How is his game impacted in the high-octane no-hand-check era vs. the man-to-man illegal-defense rule?
Jordan, for all his accolades as perhaps the GOAT, was never a great or prolific 3-point shooter. Would that impact his value in today's NBA? Entire positional skill set requirements have altered significantly since Jordan's time - there are players today who are considered mediocre or are out of the league entirely because they play the PF/C position but can't switch on defense and can't shoot the 3, and yet many of those players would be considered fantastic in Jordan's era. Even small forwards are now prioritized more for their 3P% than nearly any other fundamental skill.
What about Draymond? Would he be better in a no-zone defense because he can lock down literally anyone and not have to worry about modern offensive schemes, or would he be worse because he would be less able to leverage that skill set?
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
2-Michael Jordan
3-Larry Bird
4-Charles Barkley
5-Patrick Ewing
Bench
1-John Stockton
2-Clyde Drexler
3-Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullen
4-Karl Malone, Christian Laettner(remember this guy?)
5-David Robinson
Those are matchups at every position that no regular team ever can handle, I’m sorry. A great defensive team can possibly contain one or two options at a time but not the other 8 or 9 threats constantly coming at them all game. And then if for some reason this team can’t find the bucket, they are well equipped to turn on the lockdown defense of their own at every position for the full time of the game.
Maybe I’ve got a bit of rose colored glasses about the game played in my youth, I just can’t wrap my head around an argument thinking that any regular squad could come close to challenging their supremacy.
the guy shot .376 from three point range during the regular season and 0.321 during playoffs
compare that to curry who shoots 0.436 during the season and 0.408 during playoffs
even if we were to take larry at his best season in 1984-1985 where he shot 0.427, 2011-2012 steph curry still outshoots him at 0.455
there's a reason people call curry unironically the best shooter to ever play the game
it doesn't matter how many times jordan can jam it down draymond's throat, if they can't keep up with the splash bros (larry legend is really the only one that's comparable), the point differential will just keep growing as it always does against every opponent they face that sucks at 3s
By 92 birds back was bad enough that he really didn't merit being on the team either, unless you are putting him there for the express purpose of talking shit on the court.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Are we just magically transporting them to play each other or are they growing up in different eras
The league didn’t even have a 3 pt line until birds rookie year - he wouldn’t have practiced them religiously like curry did. and it was like the mlb with strikeouts. Taking 3s had a stigma
Unless you think everyone in the world magically got inherently better at 3s since the 80s
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
You can see the 3pt percentage increased until all the people who never had a 3 pointer to practice were gone, then it leveled out
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
In my experience this is accurate.
on offense they'd pull barkley/ewing/robinson into a pick and roll and light them on fire, same way they do with any modern team that plays a true center or plodding forward (shout to kevin love.) What'd be interesting is if the DT rolled out a 'small' lineup, something like jordan/pippen/drexler, with magic playing point and (I guess?) malone playing 'center.' If that team gets the benefit of 1990s-era hand checking they'd have a good chance I think
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
1-Stockton
2-Jordan
3-Pippen
4-Bird
5-Magic
That lineup will do pretty well defensively against the Warriors and is virtually unstoppable offensively.
On the other end, only about 2-3 of the players in that lineup would be relevant defensive forces in that matchup, the rest would be treading water to borderline defensive liabilities against a collection of so many of the best offensive players in the modern league. I can't even really imagine how Pippen would deal with Durant consistently, whereas I could definitely see how the Warriors could herd Jordan or Bird into bad 2s and just choke them out through the sheer mismatch of scoring efficiency.
I think it would be close and depends entirely on the rules you are using more than anything else.
It's two different eras of players pushing theirselves to different ideals is part of the problem.
Like Larry Byrd is probably one of the most competitive people to walk the face of the Earth and could only be stopped occasionally by Magic Johnson one of the most talented players - and maybe the most direct analogue to Lebron- to ever play the game.
Micheal Jordan was a crazy person and made Byrd look like he got up at Noon every day and drove to practice in his pajamas.
These guys would all be great players today.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
He hadn’t become a US citizen yet, so not eligible. Otherwise, yeah, he’d have been an improvement over Ewing.
Similarly, they should have totally had Shaq instead of Laettner. Like, wtf.
What the fuck
Also most of them are very very stupid
I mean Shaq would have gotten about as much playing time as Laettner, honestly. Is the token college player going to get playing time over Ewing/Robinson or Malone/Barkley? Shaq is certainly one of the most effective players in the history of the NBA, but I hesitate to say he was one of the most skilled (he couldn't even hit 53% of his free throws over his NBA career). And Shaq before playing a single NBA game was just raw potential who could have very easily flamed out.
Also good point about Olajuwon not being a US citizen, I had completely forgotten about that.
Didn't realize Matt Calkins wrote for more than just the times...
pleasepaypreacher.net
If the warriors offer him a roster spot
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Yeesh. At least they shed DeRozan, that contract was looking real bad.
- Toronto just (like days ago??) told DeRozan they weren't going to trade him
- Kawhi was sort of in the dark about the trade as well?
- Toronto could possibly flip him to LA but why not just play a year with him and see if they make the finals, yknow? Unless he's a shitter and like, doesn't do his physical or something dumb like that
But then again, now that the West is briefly stacked with Lebron's team and the Warriors, the Spurs choosing to tank now might be a totally viable long-term choice.
“What’s that, Kawhi? You won’t even talk to us? Well then have fun in Canada, prick.”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Got another big too. Hope Pau can pass on some of his tricks while he can still do 'em.
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
Gonna be some fun crowd reactions the first time the Spurs and Raps play in SA and Toronto.
Ever see videos of young Shaq? He's actually shockingly agile, it's great. I don't think the concern was so much that he was only raw potential at the time, but Laettner just had a more complete résumé and was closer to the center of the national consciousness at the time. May as well go for that if you're just dropping in the token college player who in either case wouldn't be expected to do much.
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
Playoff predictions:
1 TOR
2 PHI
3 MIL
4 BOS
5 IND
6 WAS
7 MIA
8 DET
Miami will of course climb if they get Butler.
1 GSW
2 LAL
3 HOU
4 UTA
5 OKC
6 DEN
7 LAC
8 SAS
LAL above houston? Shit lakers above, utah/okc/NO/por? You been smoking something my friend. Lebron is good, but he ain't that good.
Also how did the clippers get on that list. Do they even have a single all-star left on that team?
And how are the celtics not the far and away #1 in the east. They took the cavs to 7 without two of their best players. They dominated philly (without two of their best players).
You have some bold predictions there.
East
1. Doesn't matter
West/Champs
1. GSW
Also, one could (and I know it might sound ridiculous) credibly argue that the games that took Houston that close to taking the series were themselves extremely anomalous. GS pretty much abandoned its longstanding identity and took on an inferior version of the game that the Rockets optimized.
GS definitely isn't unbeatable, but I think they're definitely not as vulnerable as that series made them look, either.
Let us clippers fans dream.