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Trekkies(ers)... enlighten me.

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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Glal wrote: »
    Yeah, just like Shadow the Hedgehog.
    That's a daft comparison. Shadow is dumb because it's completely unsophisticated tripe constructed under the assumption that giving a character with absolutely no depth a gun and an attitude makes something adult.

    You can't possibly be suggesting that DS9 is in any way a similar exercise in vapid marketing. Given that it's widely regarded as going much much further than any other show in the franchise in developing some serious political and psychological depths in it's stories, it's the polar opposite of such style over substance cynical gimmickry.

    Senjutsu on
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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    DS9's producer hated TNG's message of hope and a happy future through technological development and purposefully designed DS9 to be dark and political, where technology was a threat rather than a boon. Whether or not you consider this change in direction of Trek a marketing ploy or a noble attempt to tell better stories (a trademark of Paramount, to be sure) is up to you, I guess. As far as I'm concerned, I like Gene's vision better, and B5 did it better than DS9.

    Glal on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I think both visions have their place, but DS9 told a more interesting story, in my opinion, than DS9 did because TNG was much more of a monster-of-the-week show while DS9 was always driving through one long story.

    jclast on
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    concreteconcrete Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but:

    DS9 ep where O'Brien
    spends 20 years in a mind-prison, where in reality only about 15 minutes real time has passed, and struggles with getting back to his old life, ends up attempting suicide
    - is perhaps the best episode in ST history. And also shows that DS9 is all about the dark side of humanity.

    concrete on
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    concreteconcrete Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yeah, but his powers of observation were friggin' awesome. Four lights, man. Four lights.

    I loved that episode. YTMND mockery or no, it really showed how good an actor Patrick Stewart is.

    concrete on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Voyager and Enterprise were crap. I'm sick of stories about lone crews that accomplish more in a couple years than a Federation of over 180 civilized worlds accomplished in over two centuries.

    Glyph on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    f142235922888dde661bbc2e86c9ec34.jpg
    "It is green."

    Azio on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
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    "Oh, shit."

    Glyph on
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    AngelofVengeanceAngelofVengeance Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    My favourite phrase from Star Trek was when Worf declared prune juice to be a "Warrior's Drink". That's just hilarious.

    AngelofVengeance on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Which leads to Worf & Quark's first conversation.

    Quark: "Let me guess. Blood wine?"
    Worf: "No. Prune juice."
    Quark: "Prune juice :lol: "
    Worf: ":x"
    Quark: ":| Coming right up."

    Richy on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The best exchange has to have been when Wesley was seeking love advice from the crew.

    Riker: (To Wesley) Now the first words out of your mouth are the most important.
    You may want to start with something like this…(To Guinan) “You are the
    most beautiful woman in the galaxy”(Guinan appears unphased)...but that might not work.
    Guinan: Yes, yes it would.
    Riker: You don't know how long I've wanted to tell you that.
    Guinan: But you were afraid?
    Riker: Yes.
    Guinan: Of me?
    Riker: Of us, of what we might become...
    Wesley: Commander?
    Riker: ...or did you think that's a lie?
    Guinan: Maybe I do think that's a lie.
    Riker: Then you think I'm not sincere.
    Guinan: I didn't say that. There's nothing wrong with a lie, it's
    like a knock at the door.
    Riker: Then you're inviting me in?
    Guinan: I'm not sending you away.
    Riker: That's more than I expected.
    Guinan: Is it as much as you hoped?
    Riker: To hope, is to recognize the possibility...I have only dreams.
    Guinan: Dreams can be dangerous.
    Riker: Not these dreams. I dream of a galaxy where your eyes are the
    stars, and the universe worships the night.
    Guinan: Careful, putting me on a pedestal so high, you may not be able
    to reach me.
    Riker: Then I'll learn how to fly...you are the heart in my day, and
    the soul in my night.
    Wesley: I don't think this is my style...
    Guinan: Shut up, kid. (Back to Riker) Tell me more about…my eyes.

    Glyph on
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    SynonymousSynonymous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Back to the Roddenberry thing for a minute - I dunno; faulting Trek for being optimistic about human potential is like faulting The X-Files for not being a sunny paean to the U.S. government or Buffy for not being hard sci-fi. There's only so much to can ask the core of a show to change until you have to admit it's not your type in the first place, y'know?

    Synonymous on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    That's about right. The problem with Trek wasn't that it was too optimistic or that Roddenberry's vision wasn't gritty enough. It's meant to be an escape. Sci-fi doesn't always have to be, but that was what made Trek enjoyable. Its strength wasn't realism, but rather the possibilities it explored. Some of the best episodes had to do with being flung to the center of the universe or discovering Dyson's Spheres or encountering extradimensional entities, etc. And when it tried to be something else, everything went to hell.

    Glyph on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Glyph wrote: »
    That's about right. The problem with Trek wasn't that it was too optimistic or that Roddenberry's vision wasn't gritty enough. It's meant to be an escape. Sci-fi doesn't always have to be, but that was what made Trek enjoyable. Its strength wasn't realism, but rather the possibilities it explored. Some of the best episodes had to do with being flung to the center of the universe or discovering Dyson's Spheres or encountering extradimensional entities, etc. And when it tried to be something else, everything went to hell.

    I always thought of Star Trek episodes as thought experiments. Tapestries - what if you could change one thing about your life? Inner Light - what if you could live as somebody else? Measure of a Man - what makes us human? These questions are what all science fiction is fundamentally about.

    DS9's format allowed for more complicated and subtle thought experiments; moral conflicts lasted for longer than 55 minutes. It was no less optimistic about human nature: for the most part, the crew of DS9 had just as much moral integrity as the crew of the Enterprise. Even Quark, in his own way. DS9 just recognized that integrity doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    NexusSixNexusSix Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    DS9's format allowed for more complicated and subtle thought experiments; moral conflicts lasted for longer than 55 minutes. It was no less optimistic about human nature: for the most part, the crew of DS9 had just as much moral integrity as the crew of the Enterprise. Even Quark, in his own way. DS9 just recognized that integrity doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.

    Well put. I agree with Synonymous' post about Roddenberry's vision, and that's how TOS and TNG was, and I enjoyed both of those. But DS9, it was Star Trek... but all grown up and much more engaging.

    NexusSix on
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    HybridHybrid South AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Just a funny random note, in the sunday paper theres a comic that makes fun of sci-fi and fantasy and stuff, in todays it was about the fact that the Voyager always looks pristine the next episode after taking an ass-kicking. Thought that was funny, considering I was just reading this thread.

    Hybrid on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Glyph wrote: »
    That's about right. The problem with Trek wasn't that it was too optimistic or that Roddenberry's vision wasn't gritty enough. It's meant to be an escape. Sci-fi doesn't always have to be, but that was what made Trek enjoyable. Its strength wasn't realism, but rather the possibilities it explored. Some of the best episodes had to do with being flung to the center of the universe or discovering Dyson's Spheres or encountering extradimensional entities, etc. And when it tried to be something else, everything went to hell.

    I always thought of Star Trek episodes as thought experiments. Tapestries - what if you could change one thing about your life? Inner Light - what if you could live as somebody else? Measure of a Man - what makes us human? These questions are what all science fiction is fundamentally about.

    DS9's format allowed for more complicated and subtle thought experiments; moral conflicts lasted for longer than 55 minutes. It was no less optimistic about human nature: for the most part, the crew of DS9 had just as much moral integrity as the crew of the Enterprise. Even Quark, in his own way. DS9 just recognized that integrity doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.

    The problem is that I don't remember DS9 for its thought experiments and life changes as much as its politics and challenges to Roddenberry's utopia. It got bogged down in war arcs and Bajoran mythology. The "Garak pragmatism over morality" and "Cardassian atrocity" episodes were certainly thought-provoking in a contemporary framework, but Battlestar Galactica does it better; Trek should've stuck with keeping the politics to a minimal and focusing more on (to quote Q) "charting the unknown possibilities of existence".

    Glyph on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2007
    Hybrid wrote: »
    Just a funny random note, in the sunday paper theres a comic that makes fun of sci-fi and fantasy and stuff, in todays it was about the fact that the Voyager always looks pristine the next episode after taking an ass-kicking. Thought that was funny, considering I was just reading this thread.

    That's because each episode is a different fake Voyager !!!1111

    FyreWulff on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Hybrid wrote: »
    Just a funny random note, in the sunday paper theres a comic that makes fun of sci-fi and fantasy and stuff, in todays it was about the fact that the Voyager always looks pristine the next episode after taking an ass-kicking. Thought that was funny, considering I was just reading this thread.

    That's because each episode is a different fake Voyager !!!1111

    RDM actually cited that as one of the reasons for leaving Voyager and starting Battlestar Galactica:

    "The [Voyager] premise has a lot of possibilities. Before it aired, I was at a convention in Pasadena, and Sternbach and Okuda were on stage, and they were answering questions from the audience about the new ship. It was all very technical, and they were talking about the fact that in the premise this ship was going to have problems. It wasn’t going to have unlimited sources of energy. It wasn’t going to have all the doodads of the Enterprise. It was going to be rougher, fending for themselves more, having to trade to get supplies that they want. That didn’t happen. It doesn’t happen at all, and it’s a lie to the audience. I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. Voyager is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spic-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven? That kind of bullshitting the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn’t act like this."

    Glyph on
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    DuckterPepperDuckterPepper Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    RDM for the win. In some way, i think we have to thank voyager to have been sucky so that we all got the BSG Treatment we all love now.

    DuckterPepper on
    DuckterPepper

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    WyndhamPriceWyndhamPrice Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    If there is ever another Trek series I hope RDM is involved in some creative capacity. He could honestly save Trek if JJ Abrams doesn't.

    He's probably too burned by Voyager though.

    WyndhamPrice on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    Richy on
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    ZimmydoomZimmydoom Accept no substitutes Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Richy wrote: »
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    The Monster is a pah wraith.

    Zimmydoom on
    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Gim wrote: »
    Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
    Flew away in a balloon
    Had sex with polar bears
    While sitting in a reclining chair
    Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
    Running around and clawing eyelids
    Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    The Monster is a pah wraith.
    Except he's really on the side of the Prophets and trying to help the Enterprise.

    Richy on
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    ZimmydoomZimmydoom Accept no substitutes Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Richy wrote: »
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    The Monster is a pah wraith.
    Except he's really on the side of the Prophets and trying to help the Enterprise.

    No, that was just a holodeck simulation.

    Zimmydoom on
    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Gim wrote: »
    Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
    Flew away in a balloon
    Had sex with polar bears
    While sitting in a reclining chair
    Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
    Running around and clawing eyelids
    Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    The Monster is a pah wraith.
    Except he's really on the side of the Prophets and trying to help the Enterprise.

    No, that was just a holodeck simulation.
    ... that was secretly controlled by secretive four-toed Romulans secretly trying to save the universe from a secret equation.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    ZimmydoomZimmydoom Accept no substitutes Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Richy wrote: »
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    After Lost, I must say I'm kinda skeptical of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

    The Monster is a pah wraith.
    Except he's really on the side of the Prophets and trying to help the Enterprise.

    No, that was just a holodeck simulation.
    ... that was secretly controlled by secretive four-toed Romulans secretly trying to save the universe from a secret equation.

    Spoiler that shit, jackass!

    Zimmydoom on
    Better-than-birthday-sig!
    Gim wrote: »
    Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
    Flew away in a balloon
    Had sex with polar bears
    While sitting in a reclining chair
    Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
    Running around and clawing eyelids
    Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    You know, I just realized that a major plot point of like all the TNG movies (exept maybe Nemesis, I forget) is "Data fucks up, nearly destroys everything, then gets fixed and helps out."

    deadonthestreet on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    O_o

    Generation: Data's fuck-up is a minor plot point. Geordi's fuck-up in not getting his visor checked after being held hostage by Lursa and B'tor was worse.

    First Contact: Data doesn't fuck-up (unless you count getting caught by the Borg, in which case he's one of many people to fuck-up) and he helps save the day by spoiling the Borg's plans and severly wounding the Borg Queen.

    Insurection: Data doesn't fuck-up, unless you count his malfuction at the begining when he gets shot, and that helps uncover the evil Federation plot.

    Nemesis: Data doesn't fuck-up.

    Richy on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Richy wrote: »
    Nemesis: Data doesn't fuck-up.

    But everything else does.

    Glyph on
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    Torso BoyTorso Boy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Richy wrote: »
    O_o

    Generation: Data's fuck-up is a minor plot point. Geordi's fuck-up in not getting his visor checked after being held hostage by Lursa and B'tor was worse.

    First Contact: Data doesn't fuck-up (unless you count getting caught by the Borg, in which case he's one of many people to fuck-up) and he helps save the day by spoiling the Borg's plans and severly wounding the Borg Queen.

    Insurection: Data doesn't fuck-up, unless you count his malfuction at the begining when he gets shot, and that helps uncover the evil Federation plot.

    Nemesis: Data doesn't fuck-up.

    And look where all that got him.

    Torso Boy on
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    dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Torso Boy wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    O_o

    Generation: Data's fuck-up is a minor plot point. Geordi's fuck-up in not getting his visor checked after being held hostage by Lursa and B'tor was worse.

    First Contact: Data doesn't fuck-up (unless you count getting caught by the Borg, in which case he's one of many people to fuck-up) and he helps save the day by spoiling the Borg's plans and severly wounding the Borg Queen.

    Insurection: Data doesn't fuck-up, unless you count his malfuction at the begining when he gets shot, and that helps uncover the evil Federation plot.

    Nemesis: Data doesn't fuck-up.

    And look where all that got him.
    all blown up and stuff?

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2007
    Nemesis
    Yeah, but they copped out and had the whole "his entire mind was copied to the new android"

    FyreWulff on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Nemesis
    Yeah, but they copped out and had the whole "his entire mind was copied to the new android"
    Hey, the enemy has this weapon that destroys all living matter, but it takes seventeen years to deploy the targeting array or else they might flood themselves with radiation. We have a nonliving android, one of two of his kind, on board the ship at the control panel for the weapon. Maybe he should flood the enemy ship with radiation, killing off all the enemy officers but leaving himself functional -- naw, not heroic enough. He should blow himself up instead.

    Fuck that pissed me off.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Hey, the enemy has this weapon that destroys all living matter, but it takes seventeen years to deploy the targeting array or else they might flood themselves with radiation. We have a nonliving android, one of two of his kind, on board the ship at the control panel for the weapon. Maybe he should flood the enemy ship with radiation, killing off all the enemy officers but leaving himself functional -- naw, not heroic enough. He should blow himself up instead.

    Fuck that pissed me off.
    Brent Spiner wanted his character killed off since Insurrection. Granted, they could've done it differently or not at all, but then fans might keep watching Trek and Berman was out of ideas.
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Nemesis
    Yeah, but they copped out and had the whole "his entire mind was copied to the new android"

    A dumber android.

    Glyph on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited March 2007
    How I rank Science Fiction Series

    Star Wars = Firefly > new Battlestar Galactica > Star Trek > old Battlestar Galactica > a pile of horse shit > Babylon 5

    God did I hate Babylon 5. Oh, and Stargate just sucks greasy monkey balls.

    But I do love my Star Wars. Eat lightsaber bitches!

    ...God I am such a sci-fi nerd.

    Don't you touch my Stargate. Atlantis is getting really good, like Season 7-8 of SG1 good. Besides with two movies (1 with RDA!) and a third series in production, you are going to end up seeing more Stargate than Star Trek in the next few years.

    In regards to Tripp, he is the sex object of the show. I like how the sex object changes position each series.

    ToS: Captain Kirk is the Sex Object (Captain)
    TNG: Commander Riker is the Sex Object (1st Officer)
    DS9: Jadzia Dex is the Sex Object (Science Officer)
    VoY: 7o9 is the Sex Object (Late Character to Boost Ratings)
    Ent: Tripp is the Sex Object (Chief Engineer/Sub-Commander)

    You know, I didn't Voyager that bad. It was great, but its fun mindless viewing. They have been showing the very funny episodes where 7o9 breaks out her acting potential (I am Borg *rips out pretend-robot circuits from black&white holodeck program* The robot has been neutralized, may I go now?)

    But yeah DS9 & TNG are the best hands down.

    Unknown User on
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    TroubledTomTroubledTom regular
    edited March 2007
    New Doctor Who= TNG > TOS > old Doctor Who > Star Wars > DS9 + Enterprise > Voyager

    Also, Night Gallery > Alien Nation the series

    TroubledTom on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Wow, that's a harsh take on DS9. Not that big of a goofy rubber suits and tongue-in-cheek Dr Whoiness myself

    Senjutsu on
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    TroubledTomTroubledTom regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Wow, that's a harsh take on DS9. Not that big of a goofy rubber suits and tongue-in-cheek Dr Whoiness myself

    Perhaps that was harsh, it is pretty good. I like all those shows except for Voyager. I was alienated by DS9 as it drifted away from what it was in early seasons. DS9 is the one show I want to rewatch though via Netflix, so I'll give it another chance.

    TroubledTom on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Battlestar Galactica > New Doctor Who= TNG > TOS > old Doctor Who > Star Wars > DS9 + Enterprise > Voyager


    Incidentally, where does Bablyon 5 fit in (if at all)?

    Glyph on
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