these leviathan guys seem to be able to shut reapers down completely. So how did the reapers beat them and force them into hiding?
I have to assume it's a numbers thing. One-on-one the Leviathans win. Outnumbered ten-to-one or 100-to-one is harder.
The Leviathans actually had the advantage in the DLC; it was three-to-one.
But even given that
There probably were just never that many of them in the first place, being as they're basically gods and all
Plus, the one you talk to is a descendant; not one of the original Leviathans.
There are other issues as well, like how far their dominate/indoctrinate ability extends without the aid of those artifacts. If the Reapers know where the Leviathan are hiding, what's to stop the Reapers from simply sending some asteroids down onto the planet from far away? It's also possible their domination works on a Reaper because it's a fully formed AI, but would it work as well and less advanced VI-troops? Probably not.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
these leviathan guys seem to be able to shut reapers down completely. So how did the reapers beat them and force them into hiding?
I have to assume it's a numbers thing. One-on-one the Leviathans win. Outnumbered ten-to-one or 100-to-one is harder.
The Leviathans actually had the advantage in the DLC; it was three-to-one.
But even given that
There probably were just never that many of them in the first place, being as they're basically gods and all
Plus, the one you talk to is a descendant; not one of the original Leviathans.
There are other issues as well, like how far their dominate/indoctrinate ability extends without the aid of those artifacts. If the Reapers know where the Leviathan are hiding, what's to stop the Reapers from simply sending some asteroids down onto the planet from far away? It's also possible their domination works on a Reaper because it's a fully formed AI, but would it work as well and less advanced VI-troops? Probably not.
Domination tech is clearly a post-Reaper development. It's organic tech, and they only went to that to hide from the Reapers. It's also slow and limited range. Yeah, it takes most Reaper shock troops in seconds, but most Reaper shock troops are basically brainless. The Reaper in the end they downed with the same pulse that took out all the spaceships earlier.
Also, man. Hackett gets significant credit for actually having quarantine procedures for these things.
Harby's ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL manages to jump from outside the galaxy to the center of the galaxy, and then through a proxy jump from the center of the galaxy to anywhere else within the galaxy
Harby's ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL manages to jump from outside the galaxy to the center of the galaxy, and then through a proxy jump from the center of the galaxy to anywhere else within the galaxy
The Leviathan said that Harbinger is the very first Reaper. The one made from the Leviathans themselves. That probably gives him personal access to similar domination abilities beyond the indoctrination that normal Reapers themselves possess. It was organic tech based on the Leviathans' biology, after all.
Harby's ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL manages to jump from outside the galaxy to the center of the galaxy, and then through a proxy jump from the center of the galaxy to anywhere else within the galaxy
The Leviathan said that Harbinger is the very first Reaper. The one made from the Leviathans themselves. That probably gives him personal access to similar domination abilities beyond the indoctrination that normal Reapers themselves possess. It was organic tech based on the Leviathans' biology, after all.
well Sovereign could ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL too, albeit we only saw him do it from a much smaller distance
I doubt Harbinger's ability is unique among reapers
these leviathan guys seem to be able to shut reapers down completely. So how did the reapers beat them and force them into hiding?
I have to assume it's a numbers thing. One-on-one the Leviathans win. Outnumbered ten-to-one or 100-to-one is harder.
The Leviathans actually had the advantage in the DLC; it was three-to-one.
But even given that
There probably were just never that many of them in the first place, being as they're basically gods and all
Plus, the one you talk to is a descendant; not one of the original Leviathans.
There are other issues as well, like how far their dominate/indoctrinate ability extends without the aid of those artifacts. If the Reapers know where the Leviathan are hiding, what's to stop the Reapers from simply sending some asteroids down onto the planet from far away? It's also possible their domination works on a Reaper because it's a fully formed AI, but would it work as well and less advanced VI-troops? Probably not.
Domination tech is clearly a post-Reaper development. It's organic tech, and they only went to that to hide from the Reapers. It's also slow and limited range. Yeah, it takes most Reaper shock troops in seconds, but most Reaper shock troops are basically brainless. The Reaper in the end they downed with the same pulse that took out all the spaceships earlier.
Also, man. Hackett gets significant credit for actually having quarantine procedures for these things.
I don't mean the domination tech that Shepard uses, but whatever innate ability that the Leviathans have that allow them take control of "lesser" species. Unless I read things wrong I took that as something they had long before the Reapers. It's what allowed them to rule the galaxy and part of what made them gods.
I also thought it was that power that took down the Reaper, and not the pulse. But I could easily be mistaken there. I just figured it was their ability since we were given that same fade-in effect of the Leviathan before the Reaper was taken down.
the reaper got caught off guard, he was just flying in and whoop direct control assumed
that's why the leviathans are contributing with their artifacts rather than flying around in space, and probably also how they got taken down in the first place. they're powerful, but only in an indirect way, because they don't have the numbers for direct combat.
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Also, something important?
Indoctrination, once it's done, gets you a pawn for as long as the thing lives (years if you're careful, months if you're in a hurry and just need shock troops, seconds if Shepard sees it.
The Leviathans lose their minions once they're out of range. Not just Shep, who has the whole inhuman willpower thing backing her, but every jerk in that mining base. So, even if they get a Reaper, the second they have to ditch, it's shaking its head and going "whoa. what happened? Also, let's go back to killing all organics and making them into slushees."
I have nothing to back up these two items, it's just what I prefer to think concerning the Leviathans based on what is (or isn't) currently known:
The first is that they're effectively immortal in the same way that a machine intelligence is. Meaning they can be killed, but they don't have to worry about dying of old age. This has the side effect of making them relatively cowardly as they normally don't have to face their mortality.
I also like to imagine that they have no technology of their own. This is harder to defend since a Leviathan claims to have created the Catalyst, but I prefer to think that even that was done through one of their thrall races. Basically I would prefer the idea that they consider the mastery of science to be beneath them and rely on controlling races that do.
I'm really curious how Starkid took over in the first place. It's not like there were Reapers belted Harbinger, so I'm curious about what method Starkid used to subdue and reaperize Ole Orange-Eyes before they realized what was going on. Surely it takes more that one Leviathan to make a huge bastard like Harbinger and a certain amount of time. I suppose if they are reliant of heavy amounts of advanced tech to move outside of water, Starkid could easily take it over and isolate them.
I can only image a Leviathan counselor, getting reports of missing Levithans and going, "A yes, "Reapers," we have dismissed this claim."
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Indoctrination tech was theirs first; they explain in the DLC that the Reapers just refined and "perfected" it. The reason it works on modern Reapers is presumably because the Leviathans have been revising it as well... the main goal is to use thrall races, but they clearly designed it to work on Reapers as well.
The Catalyst beat them the first time because he had an army of robo-Leviathans. He explains this in the Extended Cut, I believe, and I think it's mentioned in this DLC. He was researching the whole "silly lesser races build AIs that wipe them out" problem, when he came to the conclusion that he did. His mecha-kraken army was originally designed to keep the peace between organics and synthetics, but I would say they performed above expectations in surprising and distilling the Leviathans into Harbinger. Nobody expects the Synthetic Inquisition, after all.
Eventually the purely robotic Reapers either got destroyed or were de-commissioned as the cycles went on and Harby recruited new bio-technological friends.
Indoctrination tech was theirs first; they explain in the DLC that the Reapers just refined and "perfected" it. The reason it works on modern Reapers is presumably because the Leviathans have been revising it as well... the main goal is to use thrall races, but they clearly designed it to work on Reapers as well.
The Catalyst beat them the first time because he had an army of robo-Leviathans. He explains this in the Extended Cut, I believe, and I think it's mentioned in this DLC. He was researching the whole "silly lesser races build AIs that wipe them out" problem, when he came to the conclusion that he did. His mecha-kraken army was originally designed to keep the peace between organics and synthetics, but I would say they performed above expectations in surprising and distilling the Leviathans into Harbinger. Nobody expects the Synthetic Inquisition, after all.
Eventually the purely robotic Reapers either got destroyed or were de-commissioned as the cycles went on and Harby recruited new bio-technological friends.
Alternatively...
The lesser races were turned into bio-mechanical robo-Leviathans first, though not full Reapers. Destroyer class Reapers rather than capital ships. Harbinger was the first "true" Reaper, but it might not be the mecha-kraken created via "Reaper" technology.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I'm really curious how Starkid took over in the first place. It's not like there were Reapers belted Harbinger, so I'm curious about what method Starkid used to subdue and reaperize Ole Orange-Eyes before they realized what was going on. Surely it takes more that one Leviathan to make a huge bastard like Harbinger and a certain amount of time. I suppose if they are reliant of heavy amounts of advanced tech to move outside of water, Starkid could easily take it over and isolate them.
I can only image a Leviathan counselor, getting reports of missing Levithans and going, "A yes, "Reapers," we have dismissed this claim."
I expect the major chain of events went something along the lines of:
Catalyst states need to create data collectors to gather data on organic life.
Catalyst weaponizes this army of robotic data collectors.
Catalyst uses robotic army to blitz Leviathans and their thrall races. It's possible even that the Catalyst began subjugating the thrall races first and the Leviathans just didn't care because it was either beneath them or part of the grand plan to preserve life. All they cared was that the tribute kept rolling in.
these leviathan guys seem to be able to shut reapers down completely. So how did the reapers beat them and force them into hiding?
I have to assume it's a numbers thing. One-on-one the Leviathans win. Outnumbered ten-to-one or 100-to-one is harder.
The Leviathans actually had the advantage in the DLC; it was three-to-one.
But even given that
There probably were just never that many of them in the first place, being as they're basically gods and all
Reapers have the same kind of power. They're basically cyborg-leviathans. Made of Soylent Green.
I realised something else. Leviathans are a bit like quarians. Even fewer left. Even more concerned with survival. Just hiding in caves.
A third thing: Short domination-bursts would be enough to convince a sort of priesthood with "speaking in tongues" type events for longterm control of a society, right?
Are there any overelaborate fan-theories about Shep's reaction to poisons and sedatives? Can't be a Lazarus-thing, because even the Lazarus-people had to beat it down in the reconstruction-scene.
What reaction to poisons and sedatives? That it takes a lot to get her down, but she'll never die from them? That's because she's really tough and also a cyborg.
Speaking of which, the advent of being able to just feed people opposite-chirality food has probably made major dents in the poison industry.
Nobody can accuse Garrus of wearing armour for show.
A third thing: Short domination-bursts would be enough to convince a sort of priesthood with "speaking in tongues" type events for longterm control of a society, right?
Yeah I think based on the underwater conversation we can surmise that the Leviathans either did not exert constant domination over their thrall races or they can do it in such a way that the subjects still have a great deal of independence- hence the thrall races eventually making their own AIs. If it was constant puppeteering or a state similar to what we saw on the asteroid then it's unlikely such an advancement could be reached nor would there be a need to create the Catalyst in the first place. My preference is much of their control was through religion with nudges here and there when necessary.
The Leviathans don't have a lot of thralls left; it's presumably easier to control an asteroid station's-worth of people than whole cultures. I agree that they likely controlled the populace with religion for the most part.
Honestly, I really like the sketchy morality in Leviathan.
In any other series, the Leviathans would be the bad guys. You can tell that Shepard is not totally on board with them, but is desperate for help against the Reapers.
Interesting idea, one way of continuing continuity in the series (if they don't just pick an ending, or set things so far in the future that it doesn't matter) is to use Leviathans in place of Reapers where necessary. Like, in a game set after the Green or Blue endings, a Reaper could still go rogue later; the post=Red ending one could replace it with a Leviathan.
I don't necessarally think that's a good idea, just that they could do it that way.
I personally think they should stick with the Blue ending for future games.
God Empress Shepard would make the best antagonist
The Leviathans don't have a lot of thralls left; it's presumably easier to control an asteroid station's-worth of people than whole cultures. I agree that they likely controlled the populace with religion for the most part.
Honestly, I really like the sketchy morality in Leviathan.
In any other series, the Leviathans would be the bad guys. You can tell that Shepard is not totally on board with them, but is desperate for help against the Reapers.
Interesting idea, one way of continuing continuity in the series (if they don't just pick an ending, or set things so far in the future that it doesn't matter) is to use Leviathans in place of Reapers where necessary. Like, in a game set after the Green or Blue endings, a Reaper could still go rogue later; the post=Red ending one could replace it with a Leviathan.
I don't necessarally think that's a good idea, just that they could do it that way.
I personally think they should stick with the Blue ending for future games.
God Empress Shepard would make the best antagonist
Everything we've talked about concerning batarian protagonists and MP Shepard-events.
Of course, giant Shepard hurling galaxies at the giant Council-robot is another possibility.
Paragon-Blue doesn't seem as ominous, but a couple of thousand years could fix that. I wonder if you could sort something out for Paragod-Shep, or if Renegod is the only thing that works.
Remember Paragod talks about listening to what the little peasants want.
that the leviathans don't use mass relays; those were invented by the reapers
reaper drives are probably leviathan drives
One of my favorite bits about that
Is that nobody actually ever figures out how the Leviathans travel through space
They use space ships. Right? They have to. But they can't, because they're too huge, the logistics don't make any damn sense. And they're aquatic anyway, right?
Please God, tell me they're aquatic.
It's one of my favorite bits because it adds to the Lovecraftian, thing-that-should-not-be aspects of them. We assume they operate like the rest of life as we understand it, but it's not entirely clear that this is so
where are you guys getting the stuff about starkid having an army of mecha leviathans before a reaper from? I dont remember either of them talking about it in the ending or dlc, wasnt allued to either, it seemed like it was just hey leviathans get used to assuming directing control! And the leviathans crapped thier pants in awe of harbinger and went into hiding.
that the leviathans don't use mass relays; those were invented by the reapers
reaper drives are probably leviathan drives
One of my favorite bits about that
Is that nobody actually ever figures out how the Leviathans travel through space
They use space ships. Right? They have to. But they can't, because they're too huge, the logistics don't make any damn sense. And they're aquatic anyway, right?
Please God, tell me they're aquatic.
It's one of my favorite bits because it adds to the Lovecraftian, thing-that-should-not-be aspects of them. We assume they operate like the rest of life as we understand it, but it's not entirely clear that this is so
i assume they're just biological spaceships who started out aquatic
i mean, if your body is adapted to life at the bottom of an ocean, your shell/hull/armor is gonna be sturdy enough for space too
curly haired boy on
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
where are you guys getting the stuff about starkid having an army of mecha leviathans before a reaper from? I dont remember either of them talking about it in the ending or dlc, wasnt allued to either, it seemed like it was just hey leviathans get used to assuming directing control! And the leviathans crapped thier pants in awe of harbinger and went into hiding.
Hargbinger was
the first "true Reaper" according to the Catalyst, which implies that there were constructs which served the purpose of the harvest before Harbinger was created. The Leviathan are incredibly powerful on their own; it would take a huge army to take down even a handful of them
that the leviathans don't use mass relays; those were invented by the reapers
reaper drives are probably leviathan drives
One of my favorite bits about that
Is that nobody actually ever figures out how the Leviathans travel through space
They use space ships. Right? They have to. But they can't, because they're too huge, the logistics don't make any damn sense. And they're aquatic anyway, right?
Please God, tell me they're aquatic.
It's one of my favorite bits because it adds to the Lovecraftian, thing-that-should-not-be aspects of them. We assume they operate like the rest of life as we understand it, but it's not entirely clear that this is so
i assume they're just biological spaceships who started out aquatic
i mean, if your body is adapted to life at the bottom of an ocean, your shell/hull/armor is gonna be sturdy enough for space too
See I kind of assumed the same thing
Which means they can fly through space on their own and don't have to breathe, which doesn't make sense
But you know what that's just fine, they're Cthulhu
Achire and I played some good gold last night to save up for the next mp dlc. One of the last games we got geth white gold by accident. Some whiny pubbie who joined us groaned and said this is so boring. But Achire just said "we don't have to play this the farming way" and this seemed to have been some sort of revelation to this dude because we did all right in the end without camping out in the lower room. The whole gwg farm thing has lowered player creativity!
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
where are you guys getting the stuff about starkid having an army of mecha leviathans before a reaper from? I dont remember either of them talking about it in the ending or dlc, wasnt allued to either, it seemed like it was just hey leviathans get used to assuming directing control! And the leviathans crapped thier pants in awe of harbinger and went into hiding.
Hargbinger was
the first "true Reaper" according to the Catalyst, which implies that there were constructs which served the purpose of the harvest before Harbinger was created. The Leviathan are incredibly powerful on their own; it would take a huge army to take down even a handful of them
that the leviathans don't use mass relays; those were invented by the reapers
reaper drives are probably leviathan drives
One of my favorite bits about that
Is that nobody actually ever figures out how the Leviathans travel through space
They use space ships. Right? They have to. But they can't, because they're too huge, the logistics don't make any damn sense. And they're aquatic anyway, right?
Please God, tell me they're aquatic.
It's one of my favorite bits because it adds to the Lovecraftian, thing-that-should-not-be aspects of them. We assume they operate like the rest of life as we understand it, but it's not entirely clear that this is so
i assume they're just biological spaceships who started out aquatic
i mean, if your body is adapted to life at the bottom of an ocean, your shell/hull/armor is gonna be sturdy enough for space too
See I kind of assumed the same thing
Which means they can fly through space on their own and don't have to breathe, which doesn't make sense
But you know what that's just fine, they're Cthulhu
More on leviathans:
The way I heard it when shep was chatting to the leviathan was that they basically created starchild. Starchild created a bunch of dudes to explore the universe with. Then Starchild went all order 66 (or wahtever order number it is when the clone troopers turn and kill all the jedi) on the leviathans basically murdering them all, and only a couple escape, and the 3 you see are the descendants of those that escaped.
Posts
Also, man. Hackett gets significant credit for actually having quarantine procedures for these things.
Why I fear the ocean.
I doubt Harbinger's ability is unique among reapers
I also thought it was that power that took down the Reaper, and not the pulse. But I could easily be mistaken there. I just figured it was their ability since we were given that same fade-in effect of the Leviathan before the Reaper was taken down.
that's why the leviathans are contributing with their artifacts rather than flying around in space, and probably also how they got taken down in the first place. they're powerful, but only in an indirect way, because they don't have the numbers for direct combat.
The Leviathans lose their minions once they're out of range. Not just Shep, who has the whole inhuman willpower thing backing her, but every jerk in that mining base. So, even if they get a Reaper, the second they have to ditch, it's shaking its head and going "whoa. what happened? Also, let's go back to killing all organics and making them into slushees."
Why I fear the ocean.
The first is that they're effectively immortal in the same way that a machine intelligence is. Meaning they can be killed, but they don't have to worry about dying of old age. This has the side effect of making them relatively cowardly as they normally don't have to face their mortality.
I also like to imagine that they have no technology of their own. This is harder to defend since a Leviathan claims to have created the Catalyst, but I prefer to think that even that was done through one of their thrall races. Basically I would prefer the idea that they consider the mastery of science to be beneath them and rely on controlling races that do.
I can only image a Leviathan counselor, getting reports of missing Levithans and going, "A yes, "Reapers," we have dismissed this claim."
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The Catalyst beat them the first time because he had an army of robo-Leviathans. He explains this in the Extended Cut, I believe, and I think it's mentioned in this DLC. He was researching the whole "silly lesser races build AIs that wipe them out" problem, when he came to the conclusion that he did. His mecha-kraken army was originally designed to keep the peace between organics and synthetics, but I would say they performed above expectations in surprising and distilling the Leviathans into Harbinger. Nobody expects the Synthetic Inquisition, after all.
Eventually the purely robotic Reapers either got destroyed or were de-commissioned as the cycles went on and Harby recruited new bio-technological friends.
Alternatively...
Love Interest stuff
Are any of the other LI lines any good? I like Tali's back-and-forth but I odn't know any of the others
Catalyst states need to create data collectors to gather data on organic life.
Catalyst weaponizes this army of robotic data collectors.
Catalyst uses robotic army to blitz Leviathans and their thrall races. It's possible even that the Catalyst began subjugating the thrall races first and the Leviathans just didn't care because it was either beneath them or part of the grand plan to preserve life. All they cared was that the tribute kept rolling in.
Fangirls squee over his last line but I think Garrus's first line is classic Garrus, although it's not romance-exclusive.
I realised something else. Leviathans are a bit like quarians. Even fewer left. Even more concerned with survival. Just hiding in caves.
A third thing: Short domination-bursts would be enough to convince a sort of priesthood with "speaking in tongues" type events for longterm control of a society, right?
Are there any overelaborate fan-theories about Shep's reaction to poisons and sedatives? Can't be a Lazarus-thing, because even the Lazarus-people had to beat it down in the reconstruction-scene.
Speaking of which, the advent of being able to just feed people opposite-chirality food has probably made major dents in the poison industry.
Honestly, I really like the sketchy morality in Leviathan.
Interesting idea, one way of continuing continuity in the series (if they don't just pick an ending, or set things so far in the future that it doesn't matter) is to use Leviathans in place of Reapers where necessary. Like, in a game set after the Green or Blue endings, a Reaper could still go rogue later; the post=Red ending one could replace it with a Leviathan.
I don't necessarally think that's a good idea, just that they could do it that way.
reaper drives are probably leviathan drives
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Of course, giant Shepard hurling galaxies at the giant Council-robot is another possibility.
Paragon-Blue doesn't seem as ominous, but a couple of thousand years could fix that. I wonder if you could sort something out for Paragod-Shep, or if Renegod is the only thing that works.
Remember Paragod talks about listening to what the little peasants want.
everyone is shepardsexual, now and forever, everywhere in the entire universe
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
One of my favorite bits about that
They use space ships. Right? They have to. But they can't, because they're too huge, the logistics don't make any damn sense. And they're aquatic anyway, right?
Please God, tell me they're aquatic.
It's one of my favorite bits because it adds to the Lovecraftian, thing-that-should-not-be aspects of them. We assume they operate like the rest of life as we understand it, but it's not entirely clear that this is so
i mean, if your body is adapted to life at the bottom of an ocean, your shell/hull/armor is gonna be sturdy enough for space too
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Hargbinger was
Which means they can fly through space on their own and don't have to breathe, which doesn't make sense
But you know what that's just fine, they're Cthulhu
With a new computer, and new troops to command...
More on leviathans:
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
Looks like all three games are 50% off
Mr., you just convinced me to buy all these games for the second time on the proper platform
...now if only my Galaxy at War loadout would carry over from one platform to another...
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
XBL: MightyManotaur
PA: TheSecretSeventh
wait....
The Extended Cut and Leviathan are pretty cool, yeah
I'm sure you can find an ME3 save site somewhere though
WB. General Hackett has missed you.
But when this finishes installing I will be N7 level 1, and a critically underperforming noob