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Ralph Nader Appreciation Thread [Cars]

ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
edited August 2012 in Debate and/or Discourse
The Car. For some it's a method of transportation. For others it's the fusion of art and engineering. This is a thread for all of those people. Things we'll discuss in this thread:

The History of the car:
It's said a Jesuit Priest made the first one for the Emperor of China. But we don't care, it didn't survive and it had low horse power. Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot generally gets credit for the first modern one. But being a Frenchman he promptly crashed it into a wall while attempting to corner at 3 mph. Apparently brakes were just too plebeian. Hobbyists experimented with electric cars but along with steam just couldn't scale well. Karl Benz gave us the first car that was designed with parts meant solely for a car. Later on he would merge his company with Gottlieb Daimler car company.

And while everyone was making electric cars, Rudolf Diesel invented the Diesel engine. But only truckers care. Ford is often credited with the creation of the production line, but Olds did it first. Ford did manage to improve it, dropping assembly time from 12 and a half hours to 1 and a half. which is why Model Ts only came in black, other colors took too long to dry. On the other side of Detroit GM was busy working out the modern dealer network, the idea of product lines and struggling not to go bankrupt. Europe was busy as well in the 1920's as well. Companies like Citroen, Peugeot and Morris sprang up. The last one is mostly regretted.

After WWII it went even further. Porsche stopped committing war crimes and started making amazing sports cars, starting with the 356. Ferrari gave us the 250. Cadillac gave us the V-8 engine. During the 60's the Pony car and the Muscle car came onto the scene and Americans suddenly forgot about turning. The 70's came and Japan burst onto the scene with well made cars that were fuel efficient but as exciting as watching paint dry. The 80's are best forgotten except for the Diablo which is apparently terrible to drive but so pretty to look at.

Classic cars/Car Porn: (May cause scroll rape)
Late_model_Ford_Model_T.jpg

The Model T. Not so much a pretty car but a revolution.

BugattiRacingCars.jpg

The Bugatti Type 37.

Cadillac_V-16_Roadster_1930.jpg

The Cadillac V-16 Roadster.

1935_duesenberg1.jpg

The Duesenberg SJ Mormon Meteor Speedster

1925%20Rolls-Royce%20Phantom%201%20Jonckheere%20Coupe%201.jpg

The Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe of 1925.

1962_Ferrari_250_GTE.jpg

Ferrari 250 GTE.

1953-corvette1.jpg

First generation 1953 Corvette.

mump_0809_01_z+1965_mustang_gt_fastback+front_view.jpg

1965 Mustang.

Dodge.383.magnum-black.front.view-sstvwf.JPG

1971 Dodge Charger. And my dream car.

1962Ferrari250GTO.jpg

1962 Ferrari GTO.

lamborghini-diablo-vt.jpg

Lamborghini Diablo.

Car based sports:
NASCAR: Cars always turning left. Except sometimes they always turn right.

F1: Cars turning left and right but no passing.

Indy: Like F1 but no one cares.

Rally: Racing for people who like mud.

Drag Racing: For people who find the turns of NASCAR too difficult.

24 Hours of LeMons: $500 for an endurance race. Or how you too can enjoy driving a Yugo.



How to build, repair and maintain your car or truck:
Step 1 is always buy a Hanyes manual.

Cars in Media:
Top Gear. If you're reading this then most likely you already know it. If you don't, your missing the finest car show on television. I know what you're thinking. You're thinking it will be like that lame ass Car and Driver show where they review cars like the Civic. It's nothing like that. It's three guys trying to cross the English channel in hybrid car/boats. Or trying to launch a Reliant Robin into space. And it has some of the finest car porn you will ever see.

Car and Driver Magazine. It still exists. Damned if I know why.

Jalopnik. It's a Gawker Blog. Interesting car stories, but a community that doesn't like any car tech made after 1969.

The Speed Network. It exists. Don't know anything else about it.

Things we will not be discussing:

Manual vs Automatics. It's a silly argument. No, really it's stupid. No, I promise, everyone involved in the argument looks silly.
Ralph Nader is Satan. He's not. Cars are safer because of him and the companies in Detroit made tons of terrible decisions on their own.
Modern Safety equipment makes people bad drivers. It doesn't, bad driver training does.
Demonic possession of cars. Goes in the D&D Reading thread. Or the Movies that are old thread.

Thomamelas on
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Posts

  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    I just remembered that Shelby died a few months ago.

  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Your list of car based sports is missing Formula Drift - minimalist painting with rubber and smoke with a touch of fender.

    emp123 on
    camo_sig2.png
    Edith Upwards
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem I've got waffles and I've got beerRegistered User regular
    Good luck finding a Haynes manual for newer cars, too. Companies are pulling the "Everything is proprietary fuck off!" card more and more often. I can't get a Haynes for my 08 GTI. My only options are the official VW service and repair manuals which run ~$100 each.

    Well, that and a combination of Google and VW forums.

    nibXTE7.png
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    I honestly don't get the concept of drift racing. Are you still trying to be first, or are trying to be the artistic drifter? Is there a finish line or a row of judges?

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem I've got waffles and I've got beerRegistered User regular
    More carporn.
    1963 Lincoln Continental

    8c3Vu.jpg

    BMW 2002

    3Dtva.jpg

    1970 Mercury Cougar Eliminator

    o1QUh.jpg


    1949 Mercury Coupe. Custom of course, but the front end is unmistakable even stock.

    ZxEPa.jpg

    nibXTE7.png
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Krieghund wrote: »
    I honestly don't get the concept of drift racing. Are you still trying to be first, or are trying to be the artistic drifter? Is there a finish line or a row of judges?
    In competition, drivers are given two (2) non-consecutive judged laps to qualify, with their top score counting towards placement into a field of 32. Only the top 32 drivers are allowed to continue into the tandem tournament rounds, with draws in scoring broken by entry speed.

    Each qualifying run is judged on four (4) criteria: Speed, Line, Angle, and Overall Impression.

    Speed is a combination of the entry speed on the first corner as well as the amount of speed the driver is able to carry through the entire course. Drivers are encouraged to drive as fast as they can through the entire course, not just the entry point. Maximum points are awarded for fast entries and consistent speed through the entire course.

    Line is the ideal path a vehicle must take on course and is marked by Inner Clipping Points, Outer Clipping Points, and Transition Zones. Inner Clipping Point are reference points on the course where the vehicle’s front bumper should come as close as possible to the reference point. Outer Clipping Points are also reference points and scored by determining how close the corner of the vehicle’s rear bumper comes to the point. Transition Zones are areas on track where the direction of the line changes and vehicles must change the direction of their drift. Scoring will be based on the execution of the transition. The drift line will be given during the drivers’ meeting.

    Angle measures the amount of counter-steer and relative rear slip angle a driver uses through the course.

    Overall Impression is the general feel of the pass and how well the other three criteria were executed through the entirety of the lap. This is the most subjective criteria and judges will look for the most “excitement” that the driver can bring.

    Drivers should be able to demonstrate full control of the car at all time. All drivers start with 100 point and receive deductions through the run if they fail to meet the strict guidelines outlined by the judges during the drivers' meeting. Each of three (3) judges gives a score out of 100 possible points, and the three scores are averaged for each lap. The highest score for each driver is the one that is counted. Spins, major under-steer or push, or having two (2) tires off-course at any point during the pass results in an automatic zero (0) score.

    Tandem Elimination Rounds
    Tandem round are based on two (2) runs, in Head-to-Head format, with competitors paired up based on seeding position. The higher qualifier will lead the first run and the second led by the lower qualifier. The critical success factor is for the lead car to be able to run the course without error while being pressured by the following car. The following car is to try and “out drive” the lead car. Driver consistency during a tandem battle is critical. Lead Car must be able to clear the course without making any errors due to distraction or pressure by the following car. Following Car needs to run the same basic line as the lead car but may also take a higher line in order to pressure the lead driver. Taking a lower line than the lead car will result in a loss of advantage. If the lead car is off line, the following car will gain advantage points by staying on the correct line. The following car should keep as close to the lead car as possible to gain the advantage. Passing is not encouraged during tandem battles. Passing is only allowed if the lead car fumbles, is well off line or loses drift. Passing must be executed in a safe and professional manner. A safe pass is one that is done in such a way that the car being passed does not lose any speed after the pass is complete. Passing must be done while in drift, without the interrupting the line of the car being passed and in the proper line. If a pass results in contact, the passing car may be penalized. Collisions occur during tandem battle and in the event of contact, the driver at fault will lose advantage points. Incidental contact is allowed but not encouraged. Drivers are required to complete the entire course, even if the other driver crashes, hits, spins, stalls or is not able to complete the run. Drivers are always being judged as long as they are on course. Pace Zone can be marked with a cone or comparable marker and may be placed on the starting straightaway to keep the Tandem Battles fair and close together. The use of a Pace Zone will be specified during the drivers’ meetings. Tandem Scoring will be observed by the (3) judges during the head-to-head battle. There will be no declaration of scores between the two runs. At the conclusion of the head-to-head battle, each judge will individually declare a winner. Judges will select from three options:

    basically it is artistic scoring. Passing only happens if whoever has lead screws up. There is a finish line, a defined course with a racing line, and a panel of judges.

    redx on
    This machine kills threads.
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    Your list of car based sports is missing Formula Drift - minimalist painting with rubber and smoke mixed by cars.

    To make fun of Formula Drift, I'd have to understand Formula Drift. My observations of it is that it was created by tire manufacturers to keep their profit margins high. Beyond that it has a scoring system of some kind and is in theory a race. Frankly there are a bunch of other motor sports on there that are missing as well. Road Rallies for instance. Demolition Derbies, Slalom, Monster Trucks, Kart racing, Hillclimbing, Endurance races where having a mouth full of Tang doesn't happen and dozens of other motorsports.

    I could cover all of them. But I'm not going to.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    Good luck finding a Haynes manual for newer cars, too. Companies are pulling the "Everything is proprietary fuck off!" card more and more often. I can't get a Haynes for my 08 GTI. My only options are the official VW service and repair manuals which run ~$100 each.

    Well, that and a combination of Google and VW forums.

    It's not one of the GTIs covered on this page?

    http://www.haynes.com/repairmanuals/volkswagen/gti

  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    I personally look at drifting the same way as I look at NASCAR: the drivers are undeniably skilled but it's not the kind of racing I want to watch. I love me some F1, WRC, or sports car racing, but drifting, NASCAR, or honestly Indy Car just doesn't do it for me.

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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    List totally lacks sports car racing, which is kinda a large omission.

    This machine kills threads.
  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    Good luck finding a Haynes manual for newer cars, too. Companies are pulling the "Everything is proprietary fuck off!" card more and more often. I can't get a Haynes for my 08 GTI. My only options are the official VW service and repair manuals which run ~$100 each.

    Well, that and a combination of Google and VW forums.

    I thought they just don't put the manuals out until the cars are out of the manufacturer's warranty.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem I've got waffles and I've got beerRegistered User regular
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Good luck finding a Haynes manual for newer cars, too. Companies are pulling the "Everything is proprietary fuck off!" card more and more often. I can't get a Haynes for my 08 GTI. My only options are the official VW service and repair manuals which run ~$100 each.

    Well, that and a combination of Google and VW forums.

    It's not one of the GTIs covered on this page?

    http://www.haynes.com/repairmanuals/volkswagen/gti

    Huh. That's appeared within the last two months then, since when I searched after I had the pressure switch go bad on my AC only the two older manuals were on the Haynes site. I didn't expect it to be available right when I bought the car in 2008 of course, but looking for one on and off for the past 4 years they haven't existed.

    nibXTE7.png
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem I've got waffles and I've got beerRegistered User regular
    My car's been out of warranty for anything other than body or transmission issues for 50k miles now.

    nibXTE7.png
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    List totally lacks sports car racing, which is kinda a large omission.

    And if I do that then I have to get into touring car racing. Seriously, it would take two posts to cover all of auto racing. Those ones in there just happened to be the ones I had snarky comments for off the top of my head.

  • fshavlakfshavlak Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    So I rebuilt my starter on Saturday.

    This biggest lie ever told is step 4:
    PrvOq.jpg

    I wound up with a chain of extensions going up and over the lower control arm to the front of the engine to get at the second bolt. The top bolt was almost entirely inaccesible.

    Also, step 5 (getting the damn thing out once it was free) was very far from trivial.

    This image from an online how-to is much closer to true:
    PICT6140.JPG

    fshavlak on
    h3ndu
  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    I wonder if this car thread will last 2 years like the last one...

  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    My car's been out of warranty for anything other than body or transmission issues for 50k miles now.

    Haynes doesn't keep track of your mileage. If I'm correct, they don't put out a manual until every unit sold of a particular car has had it's 3-5 years or so of bumper to bumper warranty expire. I would imagine that it keeps people from blaming Haynes when they void their warranties.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    krush wrote: »
    I wonder if this car thread will last 2 years like the last one...

    Vanilla had a weird effect on that. The page count was in the 90's right before the change over but then dropped quite a bit due to what I assume is Vanilla having a greater post count per page. But I don't remember what the old forums had as their default.

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Haynes has a manual for my 07 Mustang. But it covers everything from 05 to 10, since they are pretty much the same car.

  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    fshavlak wrote: »
    So I rebuilt my starter on Saturday.

    This biggest lie ever told is step 4:
    PrvOq.jpg

    I wound up with a chain of extensions going up and over the lower control arm to the front of the engine to get at the second bolt. The top bolt was almost entirely inaccesible.

    Also, step 5 (getting the damn thing out once it was free) was very far from trivial.

    This image from an online how-to is much closer to true:
    PICT6140.JPG

    I lol'ed at the pic.

    I had a 4-door GMC Jimmy from the fist generation they were offered with 4 doors. The Vortech V6 under the hood required something like that just to replace the two spark plugs on the drivers side closest to the firewall. I managed the middle plug, but ended up taking it to a shop and buying the mechanic a nice lunch just to get that last plug changed.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem I've got waffles and I've got beerRegistered User regular
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    krush wrote: »
    I wonder if this car thread will last 2 years like the last one...

    Vanilla had a weird effect on that. The page count was in the 90's right before the change over but then dropped quite a bit due to what I assume is Vanilla having a greater post count per page. But I don't remember what the old forums had as their default.

    The old default was 25 per page.

    nibXTE7.png
  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    Auto Trader is not what it used to be.

  • HambrabaiHambrabai Registered User regular
    krush wrote: »
    fshavlak wrote: »
    So I rebuilt my starter on Saturday.

    This biggest lie ever told is step 4:
    PrvOq.jpg

    I wound up with a chain of extensions going up and over the lower control arm to the front of the engine to get at the second bolt. The top bolt was almost entirely inaccesible.

    Also, step 5 (getting the damn thing out once it was free) was very far from trivial.

    This image from an online how-to is much closer to true:
    PICT6140.JPG

    I lol'ed at the pic.

    I had a 4-door GMC Jimmy from the fist generation they were offered with 4 doors. The Vortech V6 under the hood required something like that just to replace the two spark plugs on the drivers side closest to the firewall. I managed the middle plug, but ended up taking it to a shop and buying the mechanic a nice lunch just to get that last plug changed.

    I had a 1976 Oldsmobile Regency 98, whoever designed that thing was a real brain king as some parts of the electrical system could only be reached through a small flap in the passenger side inner fender well once you turned the wheels enough to get proper clearance. Otherwise you could stand in the engine bay of the big old boat.

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I would be sad, and all because I couldn't keep my dick out of the ground beef.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    When is top gear starting again, by the way?

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    A long long long time from now sometime in January 2013 with a Christmas Special preceding the start of the season. The third season of American Top Gear is three episodes in right now (I've dvr'd them but have not watched them yet), and Fifth Gear is starting up again in an hour long format on September 3rd.

    Cormac on
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  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    The UK/British television system seriously confuses me. A show will put out a few episodes for 3-4 months and then what do they do?

  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    Hambrabai wrote: »
    krush wrote: »
    fshavlak wrote: »
    So I rebuilt my starter on Saturday.

    This biggest lie ever told is step 4:
    PrvOq.jpg

    I wound up with a chain of extensions going up and over the lower control arm to the front of the engine to get at the second bolt. The top bolt was almost entirely inaccesible.

    Also, step 5 (getting the damn thing out once it was free) was very far from trivial.

    This image from an online how-to is much closer to true:
    PICT6140.JPG

    I lol'ed at the pic.

    I had a 4-door GMC Jimmy from the fist generation they were offered with 4 doors. The Vortech V6 under the hood required something like that just to replace the two spark plugs on the drivers side closest to the firewall. I managed the middle plug, but ended up taking it to a shop and buying the mechanic a nice lunch just to get that last plug changed.

    I had a 1976 Oldsmobile Regency 98, whoever designed that thing was a real brain king as some parts of the electrical system could only be reached through a small flap in the passenger side inner fender well once you turned the wheels enough to get proper clearance. Otherwise you could stand in the engine bay of the big old boat.

    shit like this is one reason why I've always hated GM cars. Take the A-body cars from the 80's. Wanna install a radio in one? Good luck doing so without carving up your hands, but none was worse than the Buick Century of that era. The dash was designed in such a retarded way that trying to get at the radio required all sorts of digital gymnastics and a wrist-wrenching time trying to get the cigarette lighter disassembled blindly from the rear after taking a bazillion screws out of EVERYWHERE.

    That, and the whole "stick a V6 in it, even if it don't fit!" mentality GM had (still has?) was beyond annoying.

  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    krush wrote: »
    Hambrabai wrote: »
    krush wrote: »
    fshavlak wrote: »
    So I rebuilt my starter on Saturday.

    This biggest lie ever told is step 4:
    PrvOq.jpg

    I wound up with a chain of extensions going up and over the lower control arm to the front of the engine to get at the second bolt. The top bolt was almost entirely inaccesible.

    Also, step 5 (getting the damn thing out once it was free) was very far from trivial.

    This image from an online how-to is much closer to true:
    PICT6140.JPG

    I lol'ed at the pic.

    I had a 4-door GMC Jimmy from the fist generation they were offered with 4 doors. The Vortech V6 under the hood required something like that just to replace the two spark plugs on the drivers side closest to the firewall. I managed the middle plug, but ended up taking it to a shop and buying the mechanic a nice lunch just to get that last plug changed.

    I had a 1976 Oldsmobile Regency 98, whoever designed that thing was a real brain king as some parts of the electrical system could only be reached through a small flap in the passenger side inner fender well once you turned the wheels enough to get proper clearance. Otherwise you could stand in the engine bay of the big old boat.

    shit like this is one reason why I've always hated GM cars. Take the A-body cars from the 80's. Wanna install a radio in one? Good luck doing so without carving up your hands, but none was worse than the Buick Century of that era. The dash was designed in such a retarded way that trying to get at the radio required all sorts of digital gymnastics and a wrist-wrenching time trying to get the cigarette lighter disassembled blindly from the rear after taking a bazillion screws out of EVERYWHERE.

    That, and the whole "stick a V6 in it, even if it don't fit!" mentality GM had (still has?) was beyond annoying.

    It's slightly better than working on a VW or anything.
    Accidentally cut a wire? You've just disabled your car as the window-roll-down microcontroller can't talk to the ECM.

    Steam
    NNID - bejamus
  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    What is your opinion of the Ford Lightning?

  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Nope.

    Steam
    NNID - bejamus
  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Slider wrote: »
    What is your opinion of the Ford Lightning?

    Ford Lightning <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<GMC Syclone or Chevy 454 SS


    no... really, the Syclone could take a Ferrari 348 up to the 1/4 mile.

    CD199109.JPG

    krush on
  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    ugh...

    krush on
  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    Slider wrote: »
    The UK/British television system seriously confuses me. A show will put out a few episodes for 3-4 months and then what do they do?

    I think Top Gear's delay is primarily due to some idol/talent/Simon Cowell show that's airing or will be airing soon. Jeremy mentioned something in an interview about it how the airing of Top Gear changes every year/season/etc depending on what else is airing on the BBC.

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  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    Signature3.jpg
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  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    even better:

    http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/3203011676.html

    I've been thinking about one of these off and on for the last year.

  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    This is kind of cool too. I've never understood the Panther love the TTAC guys have, but something like this at least gives me some idea why http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/3228391474.html Not my cup of tea personally, but still kind of cool in it's own strange way.

    I didn't see the SVT Contour while browsing, but I've always thought they were a nice looking car.

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  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    krush wrote: »
    even better:

    http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/3203011676.html

    I've been thinking about one of these off and on for the last year.

    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!
    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!
    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!
    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!
    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!
    NO! DO NOT GET ONE!

    Ask me about horror stories. Go ahead.

    Steam
    NNID - bejamus
  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    ok... um... share your thoughts on the Contour SVT.

  • krushkrush Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I've been dreaming up some utterly absurd swaps lately too. Like... An old as dirt J-body car with a sparkling new 60 degree 6 (since GM decided it wasn't insane to put one in those cars even though it is), like the 3400 or 3500 in a '86 Cavalier or something.



    ... Then I googled it... Apparently these types of swaps have been going on for a good while now.

    Then I found this:

    image

    A chevy Beretta w/ a turbocharged 3500 under the hood. I test drove a Beretta GT with a 3100 in it waaaaaay back and the torque steer was stupid, I don't even understand how this gent kept this turbo V6 under control!

    krush on
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    Good luck finding a Haynes manual for newer cars, too. Companies are pulling the "Everything is proprietary fuck off!" card more and more often. I can't get a Haynes for my 08 GTI. My only options are the official VW service and repair manuals which run ~$100 each.

    Well, that and a combination of Google and VW forums.

    I actually have found the Haynes manual for my Miata to be pretty shitty compared to the official Mazda manual. I don't know if you saw me post about it but I ended up getting a new throttle position sensor because the pin-out diagram was incorrect in the Haynes manual.

    Also, most take apart instructions were much better/clearer in the official manual.

    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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