[PATV] Wednesday, September 5, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 5, Ep. 3: On Game Schools

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Posts

  • JackKieserJackKieser Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I wish I had this information when I went to DigiPen. I ended up 30,000$ in debt and out 2 years of my life because they weren't honest to me about their accreditation. When I applied, they assured me I could transfer if I decided not to be a designer, and when I found out that (at the time) they didn't even HAVE a design program and tried to leave, not even WASHINGTON STATE SCHOOLS like NSCC or UW would take their credits. I had to start completely over, and I'm still 20k$ in debt to them... for nothing. Honestly, I'd stay away from trade schools like these entirely; major state universities are starting to realize how important design degrees for games are, and so if you really want to work in games, look for game design programs at University of California campuses or SMU's Guildhall. Those are trusted, reputable institutions who know what they are doing and don't trick students with half-truths, and also, like EC said, have the benefit of letting you switch majors.


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  • MikoditeMikodite Registered User regular
    JackKieser wrote:
    I wish I had this information when I went to DigiPen. I ended up 30,000$ in debt and out 2 years of my life because they weren't honest to me about their accreditation. When I applied, they assured me I could transfer if I decided not to be a designer, and when I found out that (at the time) they didn't even HAVE a design program and tried to leave, not even WASHINGTON STATE SCHOOLS like NSCC or UW would take their credits. I had to start completely over, and I'm still 20k$ in debt to them... for nothing. Honestly, I'd stay away from trade schools like these entirely; major state universities are starting to realize how important design degrees for games are, and so if you really want to work in games, look for game design programs at University of California campuses or SMU's Guildhall. Those are trusted, reputable institutions who know what they are doing and don't trick students with half-truths, and also, like EC said, have the benefit of letting you switch majors.

    Doesn't James Portnow work as a professor at Digipen?

  • elzilracelzilrac Registered User new member
    I want to second University of California Santa Cruz. Although I didn't go there for game design specifically, I was in the CS department and was friends with a number of game design majors. Game design there is rigorous, and once you get past the intro level programming courses, filed with hard working passionate students.

    But a lot of this advice is great (publications, notoriety in the field) regardless of major or even degree level (bachelor's, masters....) when it comes to picking out a school.

  • rdiffee7rdiffee7 Registered User regular
    Wish I had seen something like this before I got my Game Design degree. The school I went to had many of these problems and definitely were out for anyone who could sign loan documents.

  • rdiffee7rdiffee7 Registered User regular
    Wish I had seen something like this before I got my Game Design degree. The school I went to had many of these problems and definitely were out for anyone who could sign loan documents.

  • DrakfyreDrakfyre Registered User new member
    So, I just wanted to discuss my personal experience with Digipen, and give some insight into the programs they offer, what's good, what's bad, and what you should expect to learn and get out of the school.

    I went to Digipen in 2000-2001 for their RTIS program (Programmer stuffs), during which time Digipen was unaccredited. However, at the time, they were retooling the program to allow for accreditation. I knew that my credits would not transfer; I had no intention of going to another school or changing career paths. This could have potentially been a serious problem for me if my convictions were not strong. I also knew that a degree from Digipen MIGHT not be as amazing for me as the Digipen staff said it would be. I knew from the get-go that I wasn't going for the degree, I was going to LEARN A TRADE.

    The transition to accredited status was actually unfortunate. They added a couple classes like "Art appreciation" that were actually not terrible, hosted by some of the art teachers they already had. They also added an English course that was obviously given to the lowest bidding teacher they could find. They needed to add these liberal arts credits to qualify for national accreditation and compared to the rest of the courses, these portions were *JUST* good enough for certification, as opposed to the rigorous classes in math and computer science that they provided. It felt like I was back in 4th grade English. That being said, as they went with the minimums required, there wasn't a lot of liberal arts classes to take time and resources away from the other classes. I do not know the current state of the school in this regard; I would imagine it's less of a problem now.

    First year of Digipen is designed for beginners. If you have never programmed even once in your life, they will teach you how. This is great, and as it should be, but warnings to the tinkerers and game-builders out there: the first year MAY bore you. The first project class requirements were a text-based video game for the first semester; something that most people who have dabbled in programming have made before. During your first year, if you find yourself bored by what's being taught, man up and help your fellow students. Be a team leader in your projects class; be a tutor and be a friend to those who are struggling with this stuff. For every thing you've seen before and for every element that's boring to you, there are people who haven't seen these things and NEED more help than they are getting out of the lectures themselves.

    Second year ramps up IMMEDIATELY. You will be juggling your work on projects class along with several math and CS classes. You will NOT have enough time to work on your projects, you will NOT have enough time to work on your homework. The projects course, combined with all the other time-eating curriculum, has mirrored the real world of game development better than I would've ever guessed. Expect to work harder than you ever have. If you are someone who considered themselves great at math, heck, someone who is at the top of their class in highschool, someone who never had to pay much attention to learn mathematics, BEWARE; this can change at the collegiate level, and it changes quickly. Be prepared to see mathematical proofs that take 6-10 FULL whiteboards to display, and be expected to work through them on a test.

    The only pre-requisite that they DON'T mention strongly enough when presenting the school to potential students is that you should have a STRONG grasp of Algebra, and preferably, take high school level Algebra II class before going. They offer an algebra class in the first year if you don't test out of it; this class is a farce. I don't know if it's specifically designed to scare students away from the school, or if it's just because they only have REALLY good math teachers that are REALLY bored by algebra, but it's not a teaching course. I sat in on the class a couple times because a friend of mine was in it and told me how awful it was, but I didn't have to take it myself. The teacher wrote on the board the pages to read out of the book, and handed out tests and assignments. I never saw him lecture, he would just read and monitor the class. Please note that I had this teacher for an advanced Calculus class and he was a talented lecturer; he just didn't have any motivation or care to actually teach Algebra. (He did of course answer questions and helped students who would ask, but first year Digipen classes usually have a size of around 100 students and this becomes a logistics problem immediately). Avoid being in this class at all costs; learn Algebra in high school or do some AP stuff if it's not offered normally by your school. Even if you THINK you don't know Algebra, and you don't have credits, ask to test out. Even if this class was NOT a farce, I'd be telling you to test out of it because you WILL be behind a semester of math courses and the math portion of Digipen is by and FAR the most difficult portion of the school.

    I ended up taking 6 semesters (2 years + summer courses), but dropped out to pursue a start up company with a few classmates and no money. It failed, miserably. Please note that this was before the App Store era; publishing an indie game either meant self-publishing or going through the big companies. Even if you had a good game design, and a good demo for your game, if you did not have enough polish to impress the low-level decision makers who DON'T play games and ONLY see graphics, your game would be a failure. This is what happened to us. Still, great experience overall and I learned a lot about the buisiness portion of game development; which is one of the only big holes in the Digipen curriculum. (Not a big deal for most people if your goal is to enter an established company).

    I ended up without a degree, but it didn't hurt me any near as I can tell. I have worked at Sony Bend Studios for 9 years and counting, I have a startup app company on the side called PushyPixels LLC (http://www.pushypixels.com) and I do a weekly live web show called Cooking With Unity (http://www.cookingwithunity.com) where I teach people how to make games using Unity3d. I consider Digipen to be an integral part of my development as a game developer, and I wouldn't have traded my time there for anything.

  • EagleRufioEagleRufio Registered User new member
    I want to mention CMU. More specifically CMU's Entertainment Technology Center. It's a graduate program, so doesn't really count, but it's one of the best schools out there. The faculty have all worked in the games industry and digital media industry in the past. There are only 4 real classes, the rest is all project work. You end up creating a mini-videogame every 2 weeks during your first semester. Most of the graduates get jobs. Blizzard, Disney, Pixar, EA, Take-Two and others are always coming by the campus to meet students and grant interviews. The workload is unbelievably intense, but it all makes sense and prepares you for working in diverse teams as you do in the industry.

  • chrysocolluschrysocollus Registered User new member
    Just another brief note on DigiPen (I am currently a sophomore Game Designer there): It's not a school to go to if you aren't dead set on being in the game industry. If you are not, if you doubt even a little bit, then you are taking a huge risk gonig to DigiPen. If you decide that, hey, this really is what I want to do - great, you'll be well prepared and well connected. If not, you'll be down several thousands in debt and, depending on how long it took you to figure that out, one or more years of your life.

    This is something that Portnow said, actually. If you aren't 100% sure this is what you want to do with your life, don't go here. And since coming to DigiPen, I've realized how true that is, seeing some kids come in to the school, thinking about going here. And some of them aren't sure. So this is what I told them.

  • ShisnopiShisnopi Registered User new member
    edited September 2012
    i need a good college in MA i been looking at beckers college but i still dont know whether there is a better in the MA area eny help would be majorly apre :D until then i shall continue my research
    edit - i am trying for programming

    I'm a Junior at Becker College in the Game Design Major but many of my friends are in the programming major. I can honestly say that it's helped me progress towards my goal but like James said you have to be willing to put in the extra work after class. That became completely clear to me during my fall semester Sophomore year. The classes will teach you the fundamentals and there are tons of solo/group projects but after working with friend who's going to RIT I realized that Becker has a bit of catching up to do.

    Luckily they are getting new professors that have worked in the games industry ( not saying the current ones haven't) and are adding new classes that dig deeper into certain aspects of designing and programming. There's even a class that is completely dedicated to making projects to help out your portfolio where you work on a new game or concept about every 2 weeks.

    Also there are schools around Becker that allow you to take one of their course once per semester that will go towards your degree, it's called the Worcester consortium. So if Becker doesn't offer a course or two that another does( or in my case the other schools professor recommended me to take his class), you can easily take it there and most colleges in the area are only a couple blocks from each other.

    Well I hope that this post will help you on your decision. Becker is an awesome school and the people here are really passionate about being in the games industry.

    Shoot me a Private message if you have any other questions.

    Shisnopi on
  • Canis_AnubisCanis_Anubis Registered User regular
    A much, much shorter article: Do not go to the game industry. Seriously. You will work 3 times as hard as other professions in IT for half the money, and 99% of you will be doing exactly the same types of work you'd be doing in an ordinary IT department at a traditional company.

    The people who really 'make it' in the industry are game developers, in particular, game developers who start their own companies and make great games. Companies like Blizzard, Bungie and Valve are great examples, but even if you're lucky and talented enough to work at one of these companies, you'll still be doing WORK, and tons of it, and for far, far less than IT pays in the non-entertainment market. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a LIAR.

  • DrakfyreDrakfyre Registered User new member
    To Canis_Anubis:
    You are right, if you are just looking for a profession to pay the bills, do not go into the games industry, that's a fools errand.

    That being said, there's a huge difference between IT/CS work and game development work. Yes, the work is similar in what you do, and the skills are transferable between fields quite easily. But in one case, you aren't making games, and in the other, you are making GAMES! If you LOVE games, this simple fact makes all the difference in the world!

    Also, I don't know what you mean by "make it". As far as I am concerned, I have "made it" if I can pay my bills doing something I LOVE to do. Which is where I am at currently. Many people out there work a job they hate to pay for the things they love, hoping some day to "make it" so they don't have to work a job at all. I work a job I love, and I hope to spend my last day on this Earth making games.

  • kailowkailow Registered User regular
    I just started my app at digipen! <3

  • laggedsnakelaggedsnake Registered User new member
    Can anybody give me any hints about SAE Institute? Is it any good?

  • FkUJamesPFkUJamesP Registered User new member
    I thought i had found the school of my dreams at digipen. I was doing great and knew I was on the right path, fully motivated and ready to accomplish my goals. Until YOU came along James Portnow and tried to teach us Game Design. Your class was without a doubt the reason I left digipen and because of you could not complete my goal of graduating. Why do you think you can teach game design when you dont even MAKE GAMES!!!! Get the hell out of Digipen before you ruin anyone elses dreams. You are a game critic not a game designer, learn your place.

  • JackKieserJackKieser Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Mikodite wrote: »
    JackKieser wrote:
    I wish I had this information when I went to DigiPen. I ended up 30,000$ in debt and out 2 years of my life because they weren't honest to me about their accreditation. When I applied, they assured me I could transfer if I decided not to be a designer, and when I found out that (at the time) they didn't even HAVE a design program and tried to leave, not even WASHINGTON STATE SCHOOLS like NSCC or UW would take their credits. I had to start completely over, and I'm still 20k$ in debt to them... for nothing. Honestly, I'd stay away from trade schools like these entirely; major state universities are starting to realize how important design degrees for games are, and so if you really want to work in games, look for game design programs at University of California campuses or SMU's Guildhall. Those are trusted, reputable institutions who know what they are doing and don't trick students with half-truths, and also, like EC said, have the benefit of letting you switch majors.

    Doesn't James Portnow work as a professor at Digipen?

    Yes, he does. Therefore, it's not surprising that he would speak highly of it. He, for instance, left out details that I learned about the school from going to it (from professors and by the then-head of the school, Claude Comair). The most important one I can think of is that their course and schedule difficulty curve is specifically intended to fail out over half of their students. By your second year, the chances that you will fail out of the school is over 50%, and less than 25% of your original class will ever graduate with you. In a lot of schools, this is a natural consequence of the difficulty of the subject matter, a side effect of learning what you're learning, but at DigiPen this is an artificial primary function of their second year curriculum.

    No school should work to make their students fail. Their "justification" may be that those students could never have cut it in the industry in the first place, but that's not their job as an educational institution to decide. A school teaches, that's it. DigiPen, though, and the trade schools like it, literally abuse their students psychically (and some could argue physically with the work schedule, but I wouldn't) for the sole purpose of artificially failing out a vast majority of their student base. Oh, by the way, by the end of your second year, you've already paid the school over 30,000$ in tuition, so they've already made their money on you. It's inconsequential to them.

    Of course, none of that is on the recruitment brochure.


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  • vhallanvhallan Registered User regular
    I'm a Digipen Alumni (BFA 2011) and I've been employed nearly the whole time since I've graduated making game art. I've done mostly contract gigs in Seattle and I worked on a lot of big name games, and now I have a nice salaried/benefits art job on the east coast at a really great game company. The only thing I regret is my 60k of student debt, but arguably I would have had a lot of debt from other schools too (like the local seattle UW) since I had no support from parents or the GI bill or a trust fund or anything like that. Not sure if it'd be 60k, but when I went and I did the math I found that going to a state school would still leave me in 30-40k of debt. Of course DP is now upwards of 150k which is RIDICULOUS, I would not suggest going there now unless you have the GI bill, a huge scholarship or rich parents.

  • GoToHellDaveGoToHellDave Registered User regular
    I'm a 2012 Graduate of Stafford university UK. I enjoyed my time at university I agree alot with what was said here, apart from the learning engines bit, that part is a load of rubbish, if you want to be a designer you need to learn UDK and Unity and maybe source and hammer. I'm currently working on my own game with my own team "Go To Hell Dave" http://www.facebook.com/GoToHellDave

    Our university offered Business grants to help us get started. Not everyone has what it takes to be a game designer and not everyone can lead. The most useful lessons I had whilst at university was working on the group projects, I has part of 2, Ifrag and UDK mod, where we pretty much taught ourself how to make a game from scratch and Imortal a Ipad/ I phone game, similar to black and white. Alot of people focus on one specific skill, I've always been able to lend my hand to any part of games development and that's why I make a pretty good game designer.

    I agree what most people have said in the comments, please don't go into this sort of career just for the money. Go into it for your love of games and all things creative.
    "An idea is worth nothing unless you can prove it" So get into teams with your friends and start creating. www.gotohelldave.co.uk

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  • crispy4004crispy4004 Registered User new member
    edited September 2012
    I'm a recent Cal State University, Fullerton alumni currently working as 3D artist in the industry. I'd like to take a moment to talk about a couple pink elephants in the room:

    No school is completely in touch with the industry and no school will prepare you perfectly for the jobs available. Even if a school has a high job placement rate, there is no guarantee the skills they teach are entirely relevant or will open doors for future employment. It's just the reality of a rapidly evolving industry. Find a place that lays a solid groundwork, gives you the freedom to define your own portfolio and study, and perhaps most important today minimizes your debt.

    Next, the simple truth about the actual jobs available. On the art side, outsourcing is a huge reality of the HD era. As a result, today there are far less junior jobs available and more extremely talented unemployed competition. That applies to internships as well. No matter how talented you are, you are still going to be playing the lottery.

    The best ways, IMO, to increase your odds of employment out of school are to develop valuable skills very few other job seekers are. Find a school that lets you explore that. As I mentioned, my job is a 3D Artist, but it's my Maya tools programming that likely got me where I am today. Now that was just my path, but your odds of success go significantly up if you stop running with the pack of typical modelers, animators, designers, concept artists, etc. It's certainly possible to get hired just being very good at one thing in particular, but try to give studios something unique about your skills or work they can brag about, which leads me to my last point.

    Your school may have a job placement program, but it's ultimately up to you to market yourself. Expect 95% of job/internship applications you send out to not get a response. In fact, most of the time they probably won't even get as far as looking to looking at your portfolio. You absolutely need other means to grab the attention of industry vets, preferably networking and showing something unique you did that would be of interest to them.

    crispy4004 on
  • ACRACR Registered User new member
    Hey!

    I did a game design degree (2 years and a half) in France in a school called ISART Digital and please don't support them. They lured us about the forthcoming employement but obviously that was not true. I mean, I finished in August 2010 and more than half of my previous school mates are either unemployed now or have completely different jobs (waiter for the luckiest). On my side I was aware enough to start at the bottom of the ladder and I moved also to Montreal, Canada in order to do linguistic testing so I'm fine but no one talked to me about that. I had to do everything on my own. Which leads to the point I disagree with in the video: why the 'except QA companies' mention? IMHO, it is a very good way to start in the industry and to start having a knowledge of who's the biggest for example.
    Another thing about game schools andd another disagreement with the video: don't let them lure you with rewards. My former school is so proud to have had so many rewards, but none of them is being judged by professionals so they are basically worthless...
    Beside that everything was so true in the video and I'm glad you made it. I hope it will help some people thinking before signing!
    One last tip, and if there are people from the Montreal area: volunteering in a video game event like the Montreal International Game Summit is a good way to get to know some people in the industry, just saying :)

  • OrzeneOrzene Artist NebraskaRegistered User regular
    I really need to go back to school. The degree I got from AiC in Denver has done NOTHING to help me get anywhere (I got a QA job at iBeta that constantly laid me off, leaving me to work factory and temp jobs the past few years to make ends meet. :\ I dreamed about getting into game design or at least as a part of an art team for a game ever since I was 13 .. I just didn't know where to start, and hell if anyone I knew in High School had any idea about videogames.

    I guess the question is: Is it too late to break into the industry? Am I too old to be considered reliable talent?

    Anyway, that's my rant on this college business. Maybe I'll go back and get something in the Arts from a traditional college. :P

  • Guru7892Guru7892 Registered User new member
    I'm a student at DigiPen and I do agree that James Portnow does more work as a critic than a designer (at-least at DigiPen, I will not speak to his work which I haven't seen). But he's a really good critic. The feedback that he gives you on the games you turn-in is VERY good. Next to other professors, it really doesn't compare. However, I will say that he's BRUTAL, and can be 'annoying enigmatic' when he is previewing your game. Like, you can't get a straight answer from him. (no seriously, ask him what his favorite movie is). I feel like when I walked into his course I was completely unprepared for what he wanted to see (and I still feel students are unprepared).

    I will admit DigiPen has a way to go in it's teaching of design. Dieter Rams' ten principles of "good design" taught me more about design in 10 minutes than DigiPen's courses taught me in 2 years (granted none of them were a pure design course and the course progression and content for my degree has changed since I took my courses). Read "Design of Everyday Things" by Donald Norman and "Flow" by Csikszentmihalyi before you get there; it's all basic level stuff you should know. I also suggest "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn if you want to get deeper into people motivations; a real hot topic at PAX dev.

    Portnow seems to be an incredibly busy person, (whose plan is pretty much to have no plan at all). That being said I would love to see him design a game and throw it to the lions as it were. Although, it's not like he has access to a game engine where he could do this. It's a damn shame. A terrible tragedy. A sad, sad reality of the world we live in.

    Yeah, so you can rip on DigiPen as much as you want (The pizza is too fucking greasy am I right? When you eat it you can taste the regret.) No seriously, the drop out rate is atrocious. You don't talk to freshmen guys because you wont see them next semester (it's basically FNG syndrome). Fall semester has the "Freshman rush" where all the guys try to get girlfriends. The guy to girl ratio is atrocious; top 15% of guys can get the top 50% of girls (I've had time to run the numbers) Oh and that top half of girls isn't all that "nerdy sexy" you see around the internet. Take your pick between cute or sane. The parties are pretty terrible (11 half-drunk fat-men dancing to techno). Drugs are basically non-existent (because like I think someone smoked weed like once that onetime, right? maybe? please?). This place will not give you a "typical college experience". You can guess a programmer's year by how obese they are. I think the tuition is too high, the credits aren't worth shit outside of DigiPen, and some of the classes get outright stupid. You get the feeling like the place is literally run by a bunch of chicken with their heads cut-off. (You are charging me 50 cents for a fucking cup?)

    But there are some awesome parts too. I remember in a lab during our second week when we were trying to get to know everyone, the ENTIRE CLASS had an argument on what the best anime was. EVERYONE plays video-games, Everyone wishes they had played more D&D or Pathfinder. I think most have touched MTG at some point (or some other table-top). People don't steal stuff, like really. There is a yearly ARG at the school of Humans Vs Zombies played with nerf guns (the entire fucking school is in on it, even some professors). The level of costuming that goes on during Halloween is literally pro. The level of technical skill you will have in your degree means competence rarely comes into question. The friends you make at DigiPen will become industry contacts. Beyond that DigiPen has some of the best people you will meet, they aren't like the people in other colleges. To top it off many of the professors have worked in the games or animation industry and are just as nerdy as the students are.

    Going though DigiPen is going through a valley of death, it's going through a special hell, a specific brand of suffering and hurt. But you get to go through it with some of the best people you will ever meet. If you go through this hell you will have the confidence, skill and friends to make any game imaginable (or to go and do anything). I have no regrets.

  • rockbird24rockbird24 Maura was here : P Registered User new member
    Very true, especially the part with "paid people to recruit students". Half of my acquaintances fell for it. I think more and more people should see this video and learn from it, thanks for doing it!

    The wind is my strength.
  • JadeEyePandaJadeEyePanda Registered User new member
    edited October 2012
    [USC's Interactive Media Division Perspective - Junior, C/O 2014 - Career Intention: Concept Art/3D ninja]

    If you're looking for an effective resource for a game design degree and a legitimate 4 year university, USC's the best. Ranked the best game design program three years in a row since 2010 by Princeton Review, USC's Interactive Media Division covers all the steps Extra Credits have asked for. thatgamecompany's key personnel graduated from USC's IMD program. We have graduates that find positions in places ranging from Zynga to Sony Santa Monica Studios, and even Microsoft Game Studios. Richard Lemarschand (former lead designer @ Naughty Dog) now teaches here. Jeremy Gibson, one of the strongest professors of game design I know, teaches here. Tom Frisina, an EA Board Member and someone with an avalanche of experiences,

    Basic university application standards apply: high (and I mean aim for perfection: 2400 SATs and 36 on your ACT. I find the ACT to be the better test, imo) standardized test scores, ridiculously perfect essays, being unique when everyone else is unique as you, etc etc. Basically, work hard in highschool. I mean it. Work. Hard. And then even Harder.

    There's also a second layer of applications involved with applying to the Interactive Media Division as an undergrad (USC School of Cinematic Arts application). Once again, answer the prompts with memorable essays and send in a work sample. Assume that the competition is once again, extremely fierce, so send in essays that will change lives and a work sample (be it a game you made, game-oriented artwork, etc) that is beyond-awesome. I say assume it's super competitive so you can rock harder. Only around 15 students get in per undergraduate year. Get ready to rock.

    ===============================================

    All I can say, in summary, is that USC will provide you the resources you need. Excellent professors, industry connections (I'm in Frisina's class this semester, he hooked me up with a mentor for Art Direction on a game project I'm working on http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105086), and an environment where you can meet multiple different people to make games (designers, programmers, artists, animators, etc)

    The problem is . . . it's really up to you if you want it. If you want in the industry at a good place, I will guarantee you things will be sacrificed. If you're not working hard at making games outside of class (Trust me, talking to a whole bunch of HR people: "No one cares about the work you did for class."), someone else will beat you to it.

    Is there an opportunity to sorta slack off? Yeah. It's college. You can drink as much as you can, do all the extracirricular activities possible, sleep in, just do HW, explore that weird minor you wanted to try, it is your free will. BUT. BUT. If your intention is to become the best game developer (designer, engineer, artist, producer, etc), realize that your priorities need to change. When you're burning $55,000/year for school, hopefully you quickly realize there's a big difference between playing games and MAKING games. You'll be doing 90% more of the latter then the former if you have the drive.

    Class make up for each undergraduate class will vary, in terms of what roles they specialize into. In mine in particular, we have like 2 artists, a couple designers, one composer person, etc. It will vary, but what this means is that just within the major, you have a composition that can make a full game, even a crappy one, but it's something. (That's assuming they all want to work together, and I can tell you right now, I am not currently working with my fellow juniors and instead am working with people from Computer Science for Games and senior IMD students on other projects.)

    I really have to emphasize, you need to work hard once you get to USC. You need to schedule and find time to volunteer and go to events like IndieCade and GDC. You need to sacrifice time outside of school to make games, because professionals will care little for 90% of the work you do for class. What I mean by working hard:

    Freshman year. I asked the SA during orientation if Freshman could get internships their first year. She said, and it was a good honest answer, "Unlikely." She said Unlikely, not Impossible. So I did my GEs that year, took like my three major related courses, but I spent my off hours working as an artist on a year long game project class that I wasn't enrolled in, a game that would be shown to industry professionals at these large presentation called Demo Days (People from EA, Microsoft, Activision-Blizzard, etc showed up to these: http://gamepipe.usc.edu/usc_gamepipe_laboratory/DemoDay.html), I kept working on my art portfolio, worked with a handful of upperclassmen on additional game projects in my spare time, and worked to "ship games." I went to GDC freshman year and asked every studio I cam in contact with if they had internships, even if they rejected me. It is INCREDIBLY scary to go to an industry conference like that knowing you are "nothing" to these professionals. But you have to start somewhere. Come time before summer started, I applied to several places for internships, and I ended up doing a QA internship at Blizzard Entertainment on Diablo 3. A dream half-fulfilled (hard to say QA is really a proper dev position, but it's still something, especially for a freshman). The other freshmen that year? One of them got a gig at a SFX Studio on the East coast, another made a successful Amnesia Mod ("To Give is to Force"), another I believe worked at an indie studio, but other than that, some of them took the summer as travel time, others used it to travel to various fan conventions during the summer like Comic-Con, which is "fine" (as in, it's not morally reprehensible) 11/15 kids that year ended up with some semblence industry/game making/development experience coming into Sophomore year. Even when USC weeds out the best, there's still a bell curve. On that note: Yes, you can get an internship freshman year at a pretty good place. You just gotta work hard.

    I am absolutely frightened and driven as to what I know I need to do to be the best I can be as a game developer (specifically on the art side). As a Treyarch developer has told me time and time again, "If you don't do it, someone else will." I'm still in the same mindset to work hard and really make the most of these 4 years I have/had with USC, because, at least in regards to Career Dreams, I want to make good games with great teams, and I want to be the best at my role.

    Can college be about finding your place in the world? Yes (though I will assert that your place in the world should not be first found in a "fufilling" career). Can do a slurry of extra cirriculars and non-major related courses at once in college? YES.

    But if you want to join the industry, and if you're at USC, you need to put in the time and effort. It hurts to see my colleagues who don't do this. I WANT to help them. I WANT them to succeed at least at a career level, if not a God-given spiritual level, but because it's their Free Will and not mine, if they decide they don't want to put in the work, it will not happen as well as they expect. It's hard to fail upward in this industry, even at a student level, from my experience and understanding.

    If anyone has further questions, feel free to email me (contact information at the website) http://choib.blogspot.com/ There's so much to cover, and I can't do it justice about the work it requires to be an industry professional. I'll try to respond as best I can.

    JadeEyePanda on
  • JadeEyePandaJadeEyePanda Registered User new member
    CORRECTION:

    " 4 out of 15 kids that year ended up with some semblance industry/game making/development experience coming into Sophomore year. Even when USC weeds out the best, there's still a bell curve. On that note: Yes, you can get an internship freshman year at a pretty good place. You just gotta work hard.""

  • TravisStewartTravisStewart Registered User new member
    I hope you guys read all the comments, even from old videos.

    Here's my story (short version):

    I'm 24, nearly $100k in debt, graduated from one crock school with an associates (useless), and am currently attending an art institute. I've been wanting to get into game design my entire life, but have never met anyone who could even remotely point me in the right direction. I've gotten this far on my own.

    I graduate with a bachelor's in media arts and animation in one year because my school does not offer a game design program. I was told they did until I moved up here, then found they didn't. Having no more money to spare I decided to just stick around and do the best I could on my own. Once again, no one could tell me a blasted thing about game design.

    I found this site just a few months ago, and immediately started a game design club at my school. I've convinced the faculty to download CryEngine and even got us full access to a motion capture system. The club is now in charge of building the school's motion capture library. This is incredibly exciting for me.

    We've laid to groundwork for a 3rd person action-adventure. It's supposed to feel something like Mega Man X in a Legend of Zelda OoT gameplay. So, dungeon crawling in space, lots of mobility, fast paced, etc.

    I'm getting off topic ...

    My dream, above all else, is to get into game design. As an artist? Sure, I'm fairly decent at 3D animation and modeling, and I enjoy working with particle effects. I'm learning CryEngine (insanely fun) and have decided I hate drawing and level building.

    There are no game studios where I'm attending school (Nashville, TN). There is one animation studio (Magnetic Dreams) and they're not very big (nor associated with gaming). My department head insists that it is impossible to get into game development out of college, that at least five years must be spent in the animation industry first before you'll ever be considered.

    I feel like this is misleading. Networking is too important, and animation and game design, while closely related, are still two different fields. I looked at the minimum requirements for application at the closest game studios (which happen to be in Atlanta, GA) and find that even if I bust my ass, I won't cut it.

    Or will I?

    It seems that I have to have worked on a game, have extensive knowledge of software that I simply do not have access to, and have a portfolio that represents work from that software.

    Where do I go from here? I refuse to give up on my dream (which is honestly to open my own studio but ... Well, obvious issues there), but I'm afraid that because it took me so long to head in the right direction that I may never get in this field. Even if I do it may be years down the road. So many in fact that I may have a family and a decent paying career in animation, and can't afford to take the pay cut to switch fields and compete with a younger (and less costly) crowd.

    Advice? Any amount, no matter how small, would be a huge help for me. Hell, even a link to a place where I can get some info would be appreciated. Thanks!

    Also, amazing series. I wish more people published videos that covered this sort of material. I love you guys.

  • littlefaithlittlefaith Registered User regular
    Just wanted to say that I have a lot of friends who gradated from Digipen and two sons enrolled in summer programs there. My friends are all working and so highly sought after and well-networked through this school, that a lot of them drop out not because they aren't able to "finish", but because they are getting paid to actually be working before they finish said program. Why pay a school to teach you when you can be getting paid while you do and learn? So I think that while Digipen is a good school. I hear that the program is brutal. More importantly is networking, connections, and location. If you are stuck in the middle of an area where there are no other gamemaking people to bounce ideas off of and collaborate with and no companies hiring, that is a big problem. It would be better to apply to a school in a tech or entertainment industry area, where you can actually have companies nearby to grab you. I believe that talent is always hard to find, and if you are a talent, companies are looking for you. So what you are focusing on should be how to become this talent or foster your innate talents, and then how to be found.

    I don't like the bent of this particular video at all, which seems to just be about "requiring more certification" and "requiring more grades" and "requiring more hurdles and stress and competition". I don't think stress/competition is a necessary part of learning. Just like it doesn't have to be part of a great game. That whole mindset is why people aren't being matched up to the jobs that best fit them. The idea that we have this technology gap in the United States which requires important foreign workers to fill is a bunch of crock. That our people don't have enough math or programming skills... This male dominated industry tends to create this kind of thinking - if you weren't top 30% of your high school class, then you should quit now and never aspire to make games... bunch of junk. The great thing about the game industry is their ability to look past "certifications" and go straight to your portfolio/skills.

  • NanotwisterNanotwister Registered User new member
    edited December 2013
    So I wish to become a game designer, I realise this isn't a position that you get right out of the gate, and have just got out of high school. While I was in high school I enjoyed my classes in programming, art, and English and got good grades. I have researched enough universities to know my best post-secondary options for programming, art, and english.

    The amount of options is making my decision very difficult. If I was to choose between programming and art it would be art that I enjoy more, but with the information I've gathered programming seems like the more financially stable option. My parents and I dismissed a english or math degree since by looking at entry level job postings on game company websites and gamasutra it seems that those degrees aren't of importance in entry level jobs.

    I realise that game designers will probably use their math and writing skills more than their programming and art skills. So I wonder what entry level jobs I could get with a english degree? Am I better off taking the programming course since it will give me math and programming skills? Is art the best option since it's probably the field I'm most skilled in?

    That small sentence about how you "can join a math or liberal arts major if you want to be a designer" and your previous advice about how "transferring from one discipline to another almost never works" has me completely frozen in my decision.
    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Nanotwister on
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