dammit. I promised myself I wouldn't get excited about this and wait a few months to make sure it doesn't suck, but now I'm thinking I might sub first thing.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
I'm interested to see how this works out. The deliberate pace might actually be a little more involving than Cooldown Juggler 2013.
Uhh it's still really obviously cooldown juggler 2013, only now it's diet cooldown juggler with only half the required inputs! The concept that the game is more tactical because it has a GCD literally twice the industry standard is the funniest thing I have heard today. It is slow world of warcraft. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with that.
In FFXI your cooldown was based more on what skill/spell you used and less on having a 'global' cooldown like modern MMOs.
And yes, it did make it more tactical because you would choose your spells based on their own cooldowns and how they related to each other. It wasn't a generic, all abilities trigger a 1.5s GCD like it is in WoW. Some abilities didn't share cooldowns with each other, and some did, and you based your choices around that.
We don't know enough about the combat in XIV 2.0 to know if it's going to lean more one way or another and that short alpha combat video isn't exactly enough to tell us either way; though I'm sure it'll lean more to the 'modern' GCD idea.
But we also know that there are 3 'resources' in XIV, MP/TP/Time and those will interact with each other to make something that is potentially more tactical than WoW. Choosing a more powerful ability that triggers a longer cooldown vs something that is weaker but allows you to get to another skill quicker is a tactical decision.
Also, again, from XI, timing of abilities played a huge role in doing things the best and most effecient way. Sure, everyone can blow their weaponskills whenever they want, but if you chain it will universally do more damage, often by very large amounts, so ensuring everyone is ready and understanding of setting up skillchains is a very tactical aspect of combat, and something that, while not as heavy in XIV 1.0, setting up others for combos based on skills you used; and how that relates to not only your cooldowns but others, played into tactical decisions.
There's no reason they couldn't expand upon that in 2.0, and since we haven't seen any actual party combat it remains to be seen.
But yeah, lets be childish and just assume that it'll be a slow WoW and that anyone who, I dunno, might have other ideas are "funny".
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited December 2012
Skill chains were freakin awesome in XI, especially with a magic burst at the end. I want me some more of that.
Edit: I am kinda sad that the game has more recently moved to max size groups steam-rolling frequent pop areas, using book exp to level. You don't get the cool teamwork like you used to.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Skill chains forced a party to work as a group. It was brilliant in execution, but at times frustrating when someone just refused to cooperate. But that moment when you pull off the perfect skill chain and throw in that magic burst at the end gave such a feeling of accomplishment that cannot be achieved in any other MMO.
Yeah that was my absolute favorite part of the party system in that game. Why no one has adopted or otherwise tried to evolve this system boggles the mind. Hopefully this 'limit break' system is just as good if not better.
Yeah that was my absolute favorite part of the party system in that game. Why no one has adopted or otherwise tried to evolve this system boggles the mind. Hopefully this 'limit break' system is just as good if not better.
EQ2 tried, but it was really more like a "spam opener, use ability that progressed the wheel, get meaningless buff or dmg proc you would never notice."
It was pretty sad, completing one was a given and there was no real visceral payoff.
- It was sort of complicated, and completely hidden from view (everything had to be figured out by the players), and Western developers don't go that route. Eastern developers, on the other hand, don't seem to go for complicated syngergistic effects, which is what skill chains basically were. In short, the reason that FFXI had it is most likely because it was an Eastern take on Western styles (or as I occasionally used to say, FFXI out-Everquested Everquest).
- FFXI was heavily party-dependent at release. More recent games have all been heavily solo-friendly. You can't skill chain if you're soloing, so there's less of an incentive for the developers to include something like that.
- Everything needs to be balanced "just so". Even FFXI pulled away from it, though completely by accident, when people started to realize that you could do more damage just by spamming weapon skills than you could by chaining them together (the disappearence of black mages from exp parties in TOAU certainly didn't help matters). Things eventually reached the point where I'd read about groups who would try and pull off a skill chain "just for fun", and could no longer remember how to do so. For a lot of developers, that sort of balance is more trouble than it's worth.
Balance is always tricky in a Final Fantasy game when so many of the earlier titles were all about breaking the game and making a ridiculous overpowered party.
Summoners were so powerful in the earlier game, but just so lame in FFXI. I'd say the real draw for playing summoner in XI was simply to brag that you had collected all the avatars, like some kind of meta-Pokemon.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
Define "so lame in FFXI" re: summoners; because Summoners are pretty damn powerful if played correctly. I'll grant that they usually don't have much of a role in parties, unless it's an all summoner burn party, so there's that; but like other pet jobs they're excellent at soloing things. Also over the years they've added a decent amount of pacts and such so that the summons provide good party buffs so it's not a detriment to have them in a group anymore; and they can actually function like a Summoner instead of occasionally summoning something and being a WHM-lite.
Unfortunately, not all of them would do it. I remember being in one party with a SMN (party leader) who hadn't learned how to pull, and from what I could tell just basically refused to even try ("I don't know how!"). The luckless guy who was pulling kept getting smacked hard on the way back, and might have even died a few times.
Summoners are supposed to get added to FFXIV at some point soon, though the classic avatars won't be on their roster. They'll probably end up with summons along the lines of Chocobo and similar stuff.
From my summary of one of the live dev team diaries:
EDIT10: Arcanist is a newly announced Battle Class. Weapon is a book. Looks like Carbuncle is with them in the art. Pet class. Damage via DoT's and debuffs. Carbuncle will have a tank version and a caster version. Will come out with 2.0 launch.
EDIT11: Summoner is the new Job. They don't summon Primals, but summon Primal imbued pets. They plan on having a separate feature that relates to actual Primal Summons. No real details. Currently 4 summons, based on Primals (Ifrit and Garuda based announced, other two not); they will have different 'roles'. Summoner won't be ready for 2.0 launch.
But also, you just can't have the "Knights of the Round" x 4 thing like you had in VII.
Bahamut was never summonable, even though he was standard in many prior FFs.
In theory you could play VIII without ever doing nothing but spamming GFs. (Or so I've been told--I never finished VIII).
Of course, these things could be spammed hence the summoner burn parties; however, those were technically "unbalanced," hence the reason I said that summoners couldn't be balanced in an online game.
DisruptedCapitalist on
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
played the alpha for a while tonight. Observations: 1) new battle system is great 2) EXP gained VIA questing rather than grinding or leves (think hubs) 3) new Black Shroud is great 4) THAT MUSIC 5) graphics a little weak, Day/night and weather not implemented so it could change 6) Did everything solo, vendor gear not excessively priced, about on pace with what you make questing 7) didn't craft yet so cant comment there 8) insanely excited for beta/release
FFXIV Petra Ironheart Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
Much as I'd love to ask you questions about the Alpha, I recall that Square forced you to agree to the clause that you "not say a single damn thing about this game". Though I doubt they would read this board, I'd hate for you to have your privileges yanked.
I am curious what jobs they give you in the Alpha, and how many areas are accessible.
So it looks like you can actually choose what crafting materials you want to take from the object you're harvesting from. I'm not sure if FFXIV is the first to do that, but that is a really smart decision on their part.
So it looks like you can actually choose what crafting materials you want to take from the object you're harvesting from. I'm not sure if FFXIV is the first to do that, but that is a really smart decision on their part.
Yup. Definitely excited about that.
There was so much stuff that you could get from each node, that it turned into a crapshoot whether your allotted handful of harvest attempts from a given node would get you the item that you actually wanted for your next crafting gig. And the "harvest at the designated level to get the resource you want" gimmick that the game had didn't really seem to help, either.
Much as I'd love to ask you questions about the Alpha, I recall that Square forced you to agree to the clause that you "not say a single damn thing about this game". Though I doubt they would read this board, I'd hate for you to have your privileges yanked.
I am curious what jobs they give you in the Alpha, and how many areas are accessible.
So it looks like you can actually choose what crafting materials you want to take from the object you're harvesting from. I'm not sure if FFXIV is the first to do that, but that is a really smart decision on their part.
Crafting looks a lot better but still a little slowish. Gathering seems a tad too easy now but a hell of a lot faster than 1.0. I'll play with them this weekend to get a feel.
Classes that are available LNC/ARC/CON that I have played. Clearly CRP and BOT from the video but i think LTW is as well. I hope square doesn't mind me talking about my impressions (everything I have talked about is just my take on stuff you can see on their youtube channel) especially cause I have nothing but good things to say. They really have changed everything from the ground up. I'm even ok with the slight hit on graphics (and conceded that its not even final yet) if they stay because the new engine can display way the hell more than 20 PCs at once now. They need to be sharing a lot more because its all really good.
FFXIV Petra Ironheart Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
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Uhh it's still really obviously cooldown juggler 2013, only now it's diet cooldown juggler with only half the required inputs! The concept that the game is more tactical because it has a GCD literally twice the industry standard is the funniest thing I have heard today. It is slow world of warcraft. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with that.
LoL: failboattootoot
And yes, it did make it more tactical because you would choose your spells based on their own cooldowns and how they related to each other. It wasn't a generic, all abilities trigger a 1.5s GCD like it is in WoW. Some abilities didn't share cooldowns with each other, and some did, and you based your choices around that.
We don't know enough about the combat in XIV 2.0 to know if it's going to lean more one way or another and that short alpha combat video isn't exactly enough to tell us either way; though I'm sure it'll lean more to the 'modern' GCD idea.
But we also know that there are 3 'resources' in XIV, MP/TP/Time and those will interact with each other to make something that is potentially more tactical than WoW. Choosing a more powerful ability that triggers a longer cooldown vs something that is weaker but allows you to get to another skill quicker is a tactical decision.
Also, again, from XI, timing of abilities played a huge role in doing things the best and most effecient way. Sure, everyone can blow their weaponskills whenever they want, but if you chain it will universally do more damage, often by very large amounts, so ensuring everyone is ready and understanding of setting up skillchains is a very tactical aspect of combat, and something that, while not as heavy in XIV 1.0, setting up others for combos based on skills you used; and how that relates to not only your cooldowns but others, played into tactical decisions.
There's no reason they couldn't expand upon that in 2.0, and since we haven't seen any actual party combat it remains to be seen.
But yeah, lets be childish and just assume that it'll be a slow WoW and that anyone who, I dunno, might have other ideas are "funny".
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Edit: I am kinda sad that the game has more recently moved to max size groups steam-rolling frequent pop areas, using book exp to level. You don't get the cool teamwork like you used to.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
EQ2 tried, but it was really more like a "spam opener, use ability that progressed the wheel, get meaningless buff or dmg proc you would never notice."
It was pretty sad, completing one was a given and there was no real visceral payoff.
- It was sort of complicated, and completely hidden from view (everything had to be figured out by the players), and Western developers don't go that route. Eastern developers, on the other hand, don't seem to go for complicated syngergistic effects, which is what skill chains basically were. In short, the reason that FFXI had it is most likely because it was an Eastern take on Western styles (or as I occasionally used to say, FFXI out-Everquested Everquest).
- FFXI was heavily party-dependent at release. More recent games have all been heavily solo-friendly. You can't skill chain if you're soloing, so there's less of an incentive for the developers to include something like that.
- Everything needs to be balanced "just so". Even FFXI pulled away from it, though completely by accident, when people started to realize that you could do more damage just by spamming weapon skills than you could by chaining them together (the disappearence of black mages from exp parties in TOAU certainly didn't help matters). Things eventually reached the point where I'd read about groups who would try and pull off a skill chain "just for fun", and could no longer remember how to do so. For a lot of developers, that sort of balance is more trouble than it's worth.
Summoners were so powerful in the earlier game, but just so lame in FFXI. I'd say the real draw for playing summoner in XI was simply to brag that you had collected all the avatars, like some kind of meta-Pokemon.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Unfortunately, not all of them would do it. I remember being in one party with a SMN (party leader) who hadn't learned how to pull, and from what I could tell just basically refused to even try ("I don't know how!"). The luckless guy who was pulling kept getting smacked hard on the way back, and might have even died a few times.
Summoners are supposed to get added to FFXIV at some point soon, though the classic avatars won't be on their roster. They'll probably end up with summons along the lines of Chocobo and similar stuff.
From my summary of one of the live dev team diaries:
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
There's that.
And there's that.
But also, you just can't have the "Knights of the Round" x 4 thing like you had in VII.
Bahamut was never summonable, even though he was standard in many prior FFs.
In theory you could play VIII without ever doing nothing but spamming GFs. (Or so I've been told--I never finished VIII).
Of course, these things could be spammed hence the summoner burn parties; however, those were technically "unbalanced," hence the reason I said that summoners couldn't be balanced in an online game.
Good question. I know with XI it was nigh impossible, so I kinda doubt that SE is going to make it any easier with XIV.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
I also got in a while ago.
I am curious what jobs they give you in the Alpha, and how many areas are accessible.
Funny you mention that, as this just went up:
So it looks like you can actually choose what crafting materials you want to take from the object you're harvesting from. I'm not sure if FFXIV is the first to do that, but that is a really smart decision on their part.
Blog||Tumblr|Steam|Twitter|FFXIV|Twitch|YouTube|Podcast|PSN|XBL|DarkZero
Yup. Definitely excited about that.
There was so much stuff that you could get from each node, that it turned into a crapshoot whether your allotted handful of harvest attempts from a given node would get you the item that you actually wanted for your next crafting gig. And the "harvest at the designated level to get the resource you want" gimmick that the game had didn't really seem to help, either.
Crafting looks a lot better but still a little slowish. Gathering seems a tad too easy now but a hell of a lot faster than 1.0. I'll play with them this weekend to get a feel.
Classes that are available LNC/ARC/CON that I have played. Clearly CRP and BOT from the video but i think LTW is as well. I hope square doesn't mind me talking about my impressions (everything I have talked about is just my take on stuff you can see on their youtube channel) especially cause I have nothing but good things to say. They really have changed everything from the ground up. I'm even ok with the slight hit on graphics (and conceded that its not even final yet) if they stay because the new engine can display way the hell more than 20 PCs at once now. They need to be sharing a lot more because its all really good.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
That is definitely excessive.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
Reduced perceivable excitement level due to popular opinion. Don't ever let anyone tell you that democracy doesn't work.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
Also, does the Alpha have gamepad support?
Lastly (and this is the most important question I have), if you can run the game off a big picture (your TV), do the menus and text scale accordingly?
That was one of my biggest pet peeves with FFXIV. All of the UI and text was ultra tiny when I tried to play it off my TV.
Blog||Tumblr|Steam|Twitter|FFXIV|Twitch|YouTube|Podcast|PSN|XBL|DarkZero
You should like PM me your name or something.
Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.