Over the course of two games, one played as purple and one played as blue it MUST be symmetric. It is possible that one side has strategies which work better or worse, and that this means that when CLG was purple it was impossible for WE to play the same way CLG did, but this would not explain why CLG was able to do it when they were Blue. Which they did... Which they have done many times over their career.
Its just like chess. Chess is a strictly asymmetric game, but if you play it twice each time you play one as white and one as black, there is no complaining that you got the shaft end of the stick
This is complete bollocks. LoL is nothing like chess with regards to symmetry, unless every player involved in the match has exactly the same experience and capabilities, and every champion pick/ban is the same in the next matches. which is trivially not true.
It's not symmetric. Picks, bans, and player skill with different champions and strategies are all evidence of this.
No. In general, before a team fight starts, your ADC wants to be around 800 to 1000 or further behind your front line. If you're 600 behind your front line when the fight starts the enemy anti-carries will use abilities on you because your enemy anti-carries tend to have abilities with ranges similar to that. You do not want this to happen, you want to be able to come in and clean up after enemy anti-carries have used their abilities on less beneficial targets[or been killed]. AP's tend to want to be closer[they're less squishy and tend to have burst they want to get onto the enemy ADC]
The only time you don't want to be that far back is if the enemy is using assassins you can't keep track of,
Against someone like Malphite or Amumu, maybe. Against most other compositions, not at all, unless you want your picks to be really weak (as CLG's were). Unless your front line has no CC, AD carry should be close enough to put out a lot of damage at very short notice, which generally entails 600-800.
So goals in soccer are "just scored"? No. Indeed, goals in soccer are scored much for the same reason that lots of passing goes down when you're ahead.
No, they aren't, and I never said that. Stop being a goose.
I find max E is usually better. Q is more consistent damage, but consistent damage is usually irrelevant on Eve mid. You need to DFG/Ulti burst out someone and land the immediate burst follow through. E hits significantly harder in the second or so you have before they flash.
Oh, I know, I just enjoy taunting miniwolf, as he's so very British.
Also played a hilarious Taric game the other day. Against sona/ez as taric/graves. Our Graves blows all his mana farming, takes free harass (literally walks into ez W's), then blames Ez on being OP. Oh LOL.
Just lost a game where coming out of lane phase I was 8-1 as Katarina. Team was just full of derps, including Jayce top who built zerkers greaves, wriggles and a triforce and was building into an atmas at game end. We get it, you saw the championship games and think jayce is awesome. Guess what? You dont know why he is awesome.
Also, the enemy AP ez mid was spamming taunt for the last 10 minutes of the game. Like on toggle. I think that should be reportable. Too bad it doesnt show up in chat logs.
Kat is really strong, but I think her ult falls off a cliff late game.
Had a great start last night to a game. Me as Alistar and Katarina on bottom lane. We were working together really well and Katarina was getting fed which is a great thing.
Then Katarina disconnected and I discovered the rest of the team was full of carries who would happily sit back and watch as I initiated and got whittled down from 6k health over time. I was even letting them know in chat and pinging who I wanted focused first before initiating. Sometimes I just facepalm in this game lol.
I find max E is usually better. Q is more consistent damage, but consistent damage is usually irrelevant on Eve mid. You need to DFG/Ulti burst out someone and land the immediate burst follow through. E hits significantly harder in the second or so you have before they flash.
I think it comes down to how aggressive you think you're going to be playing. Q first is a bit safer if you're going to farm/unfavorable matchups for ganks, E first is all-out aggression nut-kicking powah.
I'd buy a Mejai's if I was maxing E, for instance.
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Team W.E just released a statement that the rematch with CLG.eu will be this Wednesday. No official word yet. No official word if it will be a restart of the b03 or if it will be a replay with same champions.
We are working on an offline LAN solution but it takes some time to spin up. That allows the players to be immune from internet connectivity for the most part.
Miniwolf on
League Of Legends: Ulven
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Official word is actually that they're planning for Wednesday. It's in the announcement about double IP on Sunday.
Team W.E just released a statement that the rematch with CLG.eu will be this Wednesday. No official word yet. No official word if it will be a restart of the b03 or if it will be a replay with same champions.
We are working on an offline LAN solution but it takes some time to spin up. That allows the players to be immune from internet connectivity for the most part.
oh god, that offline lan edition will be leaked so damn quickly... there will be rogue lol lands in no time....
I just tried the tanky Kha'Zix build, going Aegis, FH, Shurelia, Randuin's (they had a fair bit of ad), then Black Cleaver, because I like that item and needed some more damage. Triforce or BT are probably better, though. Evolved W>R>E because I like to trippel stealth and I was really getting my money's worth out of it.
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
I would probably go with:
Boots of choice, Triforce, Bloodthirster, Frozen Heart, Banshee Veil, and something depending on their team, as a rule. Maybe a Force of Nature for the extra movespeed and regen, or a Guardian Angel or something.
The Aegis isn't going to benefit your team as much as it would on a pure tank, I feel. You're going to be in and out the teamfight with leap and stealth and ducking out of LoS as much as you can via bushes and walls to get your passive up.
Yeah, I wouldn't normally get it, but no one else would on that particular team so I figured it'd be better if I did. The stats are also pretty strong midgame, so it helped me out quite a bit. And with the tanky build I'm more inclined to stay longer with my team before jumping on someone. With a more assassiny build I wouldn't get it as my team wouldn't benefit, but as it was I always had a person or two around me so it worked out. It was a helpful purchase and worth considering, even if it's not something to get every game.
If I'm going heavy bruiser I would not go Triforce and BT, but rather just one of them unless the enemy team was really squishy.
There's nothing really tanky at all about 3Force; for the same price, you could get a BT and a Giant's Belt and be much, much more survivable.
The point of TanKha'Zix is that he has baller base damage on his Q, especially when you upgrade it, so you get 40% CDR and stack on all the tank you possibly can. I'd go for Mercs/Tabi, Glacial Shroud, Shurelya's, and then try to finish out my CDR with some MR. Evolve WQR.
There's nothing really tanky at all about 3Force; for the same price, you could get a BT and a Giant's Belt and be much, much more survivable.
phage path gives you some tankiness/utility much earlier than BT or Giant's belt. Tri-force is all about the procs, utility and build path, not max/min'ing something..
TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
triforce is considered a tanky item because of the context and not so much the item itself. Because it has so many great stats on 1 item 'tanky' builds on characters that can take advantage of it usually amount to triforce, maybe 1 other dps item, and then filling out the rest of your slots with survival
if you wanted to build a tank gragas that is only there for his ult, the attack speed debuff, the slow, and punching people instead of massive AoE damage triforce is a great choice
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
There's a reason that 'Triforce+Tanky' is so popular. I've been getting Triforce, BT + tank on Kha'zix because you don't need to be SUPER tanky, just PRETTY tanky, and the BT lets you eat up a wave to get back to full health pretty quickly, and TF has the phage and sheen procs, movespeed, attackspeed, a bit of everything really.
VizardObserverThe Duke of Ridiculous PoppycockyRegistered Userregular
so i've had 8 or 9 bad games so i decided to sit myself down again and tell myself i sucked so i went back to sticking to 3-4 champs, (irelia, olaf, riven, vladimir), and remembering to farm, not staying at their tower when it's 3:50 and their jungler is finishing their second buff, etc, etc
it's really helping me get back in the swing ' 3 '
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
So I max q first on AP Eve, right? Anyone got any tips for playing her mid?
Her early laning isn't very fun. Just q all the things and try not to get harassed out early. I max q and then w and then e because I prefer the w for chasing down/escaping than e. I build kage pick and dfg first, and then abyssal then void or hat and an armor item. (I have seen other eves build a lichbane before abyssal, and I can see how it can be great since youre spamming q so much, but I haven't tried it yet, it's a lot more costly than void.) I use sorc boots but in the tourney they used boots 5 which i actually think is a great idea for awesome roaming.
Once I hit 6 I go invisible in lane, and then leave for top or bot, so maybe mid is hesitant in calling mia and I can reach lane before they can react.
I haven't laned against a wide variety of champs yet. I was shut down hard by a katarina, but maybe that was because I played bad and/or she was really good. Laning against skill shot champs is actually kind of easy because your mobility and invisibility help you avoid harass.
Don't know if any of that helps you but, there you go! Eve is my favorite AP mid.
EDIT: I was actually just thinking, and I think it'd be fun to try: while you're recalling you go invisible right before you actually go back to nexus. It'd be fun to recall in front of the mid, and then cancel it while invisible and then gank a lane since they'll think youre back. :P Haven't tried it but I definitely will give it a shot hahaha
Kabitzy on
Don't try and sell me any junk.
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I'm glad she's stopped getting banned every game, she's fairly effective in that role.
I think an early Morg pick as a mid / support might work out well, switch to support if you get counterpicked take mid otherwise.
As support, good use of Q and E can make for some really painful exchanges and bush control. Morg + Ezreal is fun for terrifying skillshot bullshit the moment a Q lands.
Still strong late because Q is great CC, R is great CC and E is always useful. Low damage only matters if you're using Q+W+R to kill somebody, Q + R to save your carry from Jax / Leona / Ryze / whatever works pretty well.
I think her lack of sustain makes her more of a gimmick support, she can't trade with autoattacks very well (as her AA is terrible), she needs Q to poke (mana-intensive for a support), and she doesn't have a cheap and easy way to heal / buff her carry aside from E as an ability block. Her ability to poke with Q could be really strong with a carry built to maximize from it.
Also, she's best in a lane where she can clear minions with impunity so her Q can land. Like Blitz, she has trouble against players that can hide behind minions well.
So team picks glass support and jungle and leaves me to top. I told them I don't top much, so I just picked Nidalee and built tanky. Since their team was almost entirely AD I got a thornmail, locket, and shurelia for gp10/health/armor/actives. It was good practice top, as I am fairly certain I'm still mediocre top at best. Didn't die, got cs, kept tower up until they brought multiple people to get it. Played it safe. Also, it was amusing. Kitty burst was usually enough to get their attention since hitting somone low with her whole combo does some actual damage. Then with their attention I was free to take some hits and trollolol. When we needed to disenegage I could speed boost the team, re-engage, and then flash and bounce away.
Team was Lux support, Eve middle, Kha jungle, and Corki adc. So hard to pin down. We thought at champ select we would be in trouble, but man did it work. Assasinations all day.
There's nothing really tanky at all about 3Force; for the same price, you could get a BT and a Giant's Belt and be much, much more survivable.
phage path gives you some tankiness/utility much earlier than BT or Giant's belt. Tri-force is all about the procs, utility and build path, not max/min'ing something..
let me rephrase that
triforce is not a tanky item at 4kgp
i can buy two ruby crystals for 950 and be 50% more tanky than someone with triforce
phage is also pretty dicey to rely on when the champ using it is melee and has no on-hit abilities (see gangplank)
buying giant's belt and a vamp scepter is faster and tankier than phage->3force
pretty much any item with defensive stats is tankier than phage->3force and will offer you better jungle sustain
This is complete bollocks. LoL is nothing like chess with regards to symmetry, unless every player involved in the match has exactly the same experience and capabilities, and every champion pick/ban is the same in the next matches. which is trivially not true.
It's not symmetric. Picks, bans, and player skill with different champions and strategies are all evidence of this.
I am not sure you know what symmetry means. Games are symmetric if it doesn't matter which player you are. Clearly, league is not symmetric, things are different if you're blue[first ban/pick, baron on your blue side, different objective paths] than if you're purple[last ban/pick, baron on your red side, different objective paths]
But if you play a game as Blue AND purple then the game is symmetric. Since each side gets a go in each advantage/disadvantage. CLG.EU has time and time again demonstrated that they can play this game as blue side AND purple side.
This is exactly like chess, which is also not symmetric [White goes first, ergo it matters which player you are], but it is if you play two games, one as white and one as black, it is.
Its retarded to say that champions change the symmetry since there are no limitations on which teams pick which champions just as its retarded to say skill changes the symmetry since skill isn't a factor in the game[it would be like saying that Chess (played as white and then black) was is symmetric because Kasparov is better than everyone else].
Against someone like Malphite or Amumu, maybe. Against most other compositions, not at all, unless you want your picks to be really weak (as CLG's were). Unless your front line has no CC, AD carry should be close enough to put out a lot of damage at very short notice, which generally entails 600-800.
Or you're playing against people with dashes. Like uhhh, Nocturne, Shen, and Taric (game two WE non AD/AP picks). Or Irelia and Nocturne(game three WE picks). All of which have 600 or more range dashes or hard CC on relatively long Cooldown [I.E. if they blow it on peel they can't easily use it on you].
No, they aren't, and I never said that. Stop being a goose.
Your point(with regards to positioning and skill and gameplay) requires that you are saying that. The winning team has to score somehow and how they score is critically important to this discussion, especially since in League you have to kill the nexus, there is no time limit.
Posts
It's not symmetric. Picks, bans, and player skill with different champions and strategies are all evidence of this.
Against someone like Malphite or Amumu, maybe. Against most other compositions, not at all, unless you want your picks to be really weak (as CLG's were). Unless your front line has no CC, AD carry should be close enough to put out a lot of damage at very short notice, which generally entails 600-800.
No, they aren't, and I never said that. Stop being a goose.
I know I'm bad at AD carry and top man, no need to call me out...
Haha, Schuss the day you become an unbearable goose in games will be the same day that the world ends.
(And quite rightly so, rage during a game is never helpful.)
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Also played a hilarious Taric game the other day. Against sona/ez as taric/graves. Our Graves blows all his mana farming, takes free harass (literally walks into ez W's), then blames Ez on being OP. Oh LOL.
She seems... oh i'll come out and say it, a tad OP at the moment?
Is there any reason to get boots5 on her? How do y'all build her?
Joe's Stream.
Also, the enemy AP ez mid was spamming taunt for the last 10 minutes of the game. Like on toggle. I think that should be reportable. Too bad it doesnt show up in chat logs.
Kat is really strong, but I think her ult falls off a cliff late game.
yes, go feed Garen another one, and be sure to chase singed some more...
Joe's Stream.
Then Katarina disconnected and I discovered the rest of the team was full of carries who would happily sit back and watch as I initiated and got whittled down from 6k health over time. I was even letting them know in chat and pinging who I wanted focused first before initiating. Sometimes I just facepalm in this game lol.
I think it comes down to how aggressive you think you're going to be playing. Q first is a bit safer if you're going to farm/unfavorable matchups for ganks, E first is all-out aggression nut-kicking powah.
I'd buy a Mejai's if I was maxing E, for instance.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Also Riot working on LAN mode.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=30000309#30000309
oh god, that offline lan edition will be leaked so damn quickly... there will be rogue lol lands in no time....
Joe's Stream.
Just saw. was doing morning catch up. I didn't see the time stamp on the WE post. Anyways. Wednesday it is, prepare for the fun.
for those who want to watch it again, here is snoopeh earning his money with that cho flash.
Boots of choice, Triforce, Bloodthirster, Frozen Heart, Banshee Veil, and something depending on their team, as a rule. Maybe a Force of Nature for the extra movespeed and regen, or a Guardian Angel or something.
The Aegis isn't going to benefit your team as much as it would on a pure tank, I feel. You're going to be in and out the teamfight with leap and stealth and ducking out of LoS as much as you can via bushes and walls to get your passive up.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
If I'm going heavy bruiser I would not go Triforce and BT, but rather just one of them unless the enemy team was really squishy.
The point of TanKha'Zix is that he has baller base damage on his Q, especially when you upgrade it, so you get 40% CDR and stack on all the tank you possibly can. I'd go for Mercs/Tabi, Glacial Shroud, Shurelya's, and then try to finish out my CDR with some MR. Evolve WQR.
phage path gives you some tankiness/utility much earlier than BT or Giant's belt. Tri-force is all about the procs, utility and build path, not max/min'ing something..
Joe's Stream.
This is amazing.
if you wanted to build a tank gragas that is only there for his ult, the attack speed debuff, the slow, and punching people instead of massive AoE damage triforce is a great choice
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
I'm glad she's stopped getting banned every game, she's fairly effective in that role.
so i've had 8 or 9 bad games so i decided to sit myself down again and tell myself i sucked so i went back to sticking to 3-4 champs, (irelia, olaf, riven, vladimir), and remembering to farm, not staying at their tower when it's 3:50 and their jungler is finishing their second buff, etc, etc
it's really helping me get back in the swing ' 3 '
Once I hit 6 I go invisible in lane, and then leave for top or bot, so maybe mid is hesitant in calling mia and I can reach lane before they can react.
I haven't laned against a wide variety of champs yet. I was shut down hard by a katarina, but maybe that was because I played bad and/or she was really good. Laning against skill shot champs is actually kind of easy because your mobility and invisibility help you avoid harass.
Don't know if any of that helps you but, there you go! Eve is my favorite AP mid.
EDIT: I was actually just thinking, and I think it'd be fun to try: while you're recalling you go invisible right before you actually go back to nexus. It'd be fun to recall in front of the mid, and then cancel it while invisible and then gank a lane since they'll think youre back. :P Haven't tried it but I definitely will give it a shot hahaha
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
What are those dark skinned individuals in the background? Riot releasing a new champion?
I think an early Morg pick as a mid / support might work out well, switch to support if you get counterpicked take mid otherwise.
As support, good use of Q and E can make for some really painful exchanges and bush control. Morg + Ezreal is fun for terrifying skillshot bullshit the moment a Q lands.
Still strong late because Q is great CC, R is great CC and E is always useful. Low damage only matters if you're using Q+W+R to kill somebody, Q + R to save your carry from Jax / Leona / Ryze / whatever works pretty well.
I think her lack of sustain makes her more of a gimmick support, she can't trade with autoattacks very well (as her AA is terrible), she needs Q to poke (mana-intensive for a support), and she doesn't have a cheap and easy way to heal / buff her carry aside from E as an ability block. Her ability to poke with Q could be really strong with a carry built to maximize from it.
Also, she's best in a lane where she can clear minions with impunity so her Q can land. Like Blitz, she has trouble against players that can hide behind minions well.
Scottie Pippen does what he wants.
call it a support role....
Joe's Stream.
Team was Lux support, Eve middle, Kha jungle, and Corki adc. So hard to pin down. We thought at champ select we would be in trouble, but man did it work. Assasinations all day.
let me rephrase that
triforce is not a tanky item at 4kgp
i can buy two ruby crystals for 950 and be 50% more tanky than someone with triforce
phage is also pretty dicey to rely on when the champ using it is melee and has no on-hit abilities (see gangplank)
buying giant's belt and a vamp scepter is faster and tankier than phage->3force
pretty much any item with defensive stats is tankier than phage->3force and will offer you better jungle sustain
I am not sure you know what symmetry means. Games are symmetric if it doesn't matter which player you are. Clearly, league is not symmetric, things are different if you're blue[first ban/pick, baron on your blue side, different objective paths] than if you're purple[last ban/pick, baron on your red side, different objective paths]
But if you play a game as Blue AND purple then the game is symmetric. Since each side gets a go in each advantage/disadvantage. CLG.EU has time and time again demonstrated that they can play this game as blue side AND purple side.
This is exactly like chess, which is also not symmetric [White goes first, ergo it matters which player you are], but it is if you play two games, one as white and one as black, it is.
Its retarded to say that champions change the symmetry since there are no limitations on which teams pick which champions just as its retarded to say skill changes the symmetry since skill isn't a factor in the game[it would be like saying that Chess (played as white and then black) was is symmetric because Kasparov is better than everyone else].
Or you're playing against people with dashes. Like uhhh, Nocturne, Shen, and Taric (game two WE non AD/AP picks). Or Irelia and Nocturne(game three WE picks). All of which have 600 or more range dashes or hard CC on relatively long Cooldown [I.E. if they blow it on peel they can't easily use it on you].
Your point(with regards to positioning and skill and gameplay) requires that you are saying that. The winning team has to score somehow and how they score is critically important to this discussion, especially since in League you have to kill the nexus, there is no time limit.
@Carnarvon
Parrrley applies on-hit abilities