I wasn't addressing that part of the argument, just that within the confines of a single game it must be asymmetric. As to CLG.EU's skill level, I think results speak loudest. CLG.EU has the results to prove that they are a top tier team and arguing against that is folly.
@Lef
That is fair, but its not a fair... uhh "response" to my comment. I never said that League was symmetric.
This is what Bethryn replied to
Bethryn Said:
Dong, you know this is a silly analogy. If one team picks for teamfights, and another team picks purely to push lanes and never engage in teamfights, of course the latter team is going to be more effective at executing a strategy that revolves around pushing lanes and never engaging in teamfights!
Goumindong Said:
So why don't other teams pick to push lanes and never engage in team fights? Or why don't other teams pick to engage team fights onto teams that don't want to be engaged upon?
Note that if CLG is "picking to not engage in team fights" or if CLG's strategy of pushing lanes they're not at requires a specific champion or champions those champions can be banned out.
The problem with your evaluation is that league is relatively symmetric, a team cannot "just be worst at skill" and not be counter played by another team doing the exact same thing they do.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
"Before first blood, people only type 'top,' 'mid,' or 'jung."
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
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I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
Did you wipe them at baron and push the nexus before they could revive? I'm trying to come up with scenarious that could lead to a team being down that many kills and winning.
*edit* Just saw the items. I think nunu was cheating.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
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I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
Why you gotta be so stingy with honor delph? It's not like it costs you anything.
Did you wipe them at baron and push the nexus before they could revive? I'm trying to come up with scenarious that could lead to a team being down that many kills and winning.
*edit* Just saw the items. I think nunu was cheating.
Ultimate bravery is the best.
Twitch and their bot got crazy fed early, but we got better late-game items so it worked out for us. It was an incredibly fun game.
0
VizardObserverThe Duke of Ridiculous PoppycockyRegistered Userregular
what happened to people playing nunu top i still do that and it's great
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
Why you gotta be so stingy with honor delph? It's not like it costs you anything.
I am a horrible horrible person sitting on my hoard of honor.
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I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
Basically I honor any enemy that puts up a good fight/makes good plays, and any teammate that doesn't rage and doesn't get caught/make bad plays.
AD Lulu is so amazing. You go top and people think they're going to just all in and 100>0 you every time and then you turn them into a rabbit and kill them with sparkles.
I started 0-2 against a Garen, ganked mid twice, then went back top and just ate his lunch all day.
I hope they do something with the honor system. Nothing more annoying then 5x games in a row where all people type until first blood is top, mid, or jung.
Type what?
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
Why you gotta be so stingy with honor delph? It's not like it costs you anything.
I am a horrible horrible person sitting on my hoard of honor.
Delph is the 1%.
0
VizardObserverThe Duke of Ridiculous PoppycockyRegistered Userregular
AD Lulu is so amazing. You go top and people think they're going to just all in and 100>0 you every time and then you turn them into a rabbit and kill them with sparkles.
I started 0-2 against a Garen, ganked mid twice, then went back top and just ate his lunch all day.
Welcome to the brotherhood.
also i find banknunu works the best top lane, hog philo kages, then whatever after that. if you want to be a real man you can build ap items
Spending so many posts to analyze what I said is one way to keep the topic to the top of the forums.
Had my first game middle lane against a new Eve. Not much that really surprised me, except holy hell did they buff the crap out of hate spike's range. Plus, she will never run out of mana. It tempts me to try her out.
AD Lulu is so amazing. You go top and people think they're going to just all in and 100>0 you every time and then you turn them into a rabbit and kill them with sparkles.
I started 0-2 against a Garen, ganked mid twice, then went back top and just ate his lunch all day.
Welcome to the brotherhood.
I did it on a whim after you posted that screenshot and it blew my mind. I think I was 11-5-39 or something absurd
I need to learn a jungler who is more pub friendly than Shyvana. Not fond of Diana or Eve in the jungle when I think they are better middle lane champions. Sejuani is nice, but she is such a weak champion.
You have to laugh when some derp can't even get three letters right. On th plus side, I had a good game to call it a day on:
Our bottom lane was a pair of skilled players who decided they would counterpick the enemy lane. Yeah, that didn't happen. I admit I openly ignored the bottom lane. Top and middle lane helped me push their opponents out of lane, and had my back while I invaded. Plus, we used bottom lane as bait. We warded up blue and bottom river so we could see Olaf coming to their one good lane. Bottom was too dumb to get back even having so much advance warning, but we were at least on notice we had free run of the map each time. Bottom also had a bad habit of pursuing the enemy like top/middle/jungler would.
I don't normally run ignite on Shyvana, but considering their team I figured it would be a good pick. Force the Lux who had ignite out of lane with it on a light gank. Get GP to blow oranges on Xin and tag him with ignite to ensure he dies. Put it on Olaf to say f-yo-lief-steal. Worked really well.
Again, I almost feel sorry for the Lux. I had a number of pretty much psycic dodges on her light binding. Not because she played the champ at all like me, that's for sure. It's just really easy to dodge againt a bad Lux who will throw that out there instantly and hope it lands. I learned a LONG time ago that you tag an enemy with binding when they use their gap closers and commit, not when they are dancing around getting position.
0
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I am not sure you know what symmetry means. Games are symmetric if it doesn't matter which player you are. Clearly, league is not symmetric, things are different if you're blue[first ban/pick, baron on your blue side, different objective paths] than if you're purple[last ban/pick, baron on your red side, different objective paths]
But if you play a game as Blue AND purple then the game is symmetric. Since each side gets a go in each advantage/disadvantage. CLG.EU has time and time again demonstrated that they can play this game as blue side AND purple side.
This is exactly like chess, which is also not symmetric [White goes first, ergo it matters which player you are], but it is if you play two games, one as white and one as black, it is.
Its retarded to say that champions change the symmetry since there are no limitations on which teams pick which champions just as its retarded to say skill changes the symmetry since skill isn't a factor in the game[it would be like saying that Chess (played as white and then black) was is symmetric because Kasparov is better than everyone else].
<snipped a previous response>
Okay, we're just talking at complete cross purposes here.
You're talking about symmetry from the purely game theoretical sense of how the games' rules are structured. I'm talking about symmetry in the measurement of player ability at a set of strategies.
Or you're playing against people with dashes. Like uhhh, Nocturne, Shen, and Taric (game two WE non AD/AP picks). Or Irelia and Nocturne(game three WE picks). All of which have 600 or more range dashes or hard CC on relatively long Cooldown [I.E. if they blow it on peel they can't easily use it on you].
In an actual teamfight once you're engaged, sure, stay a little further back until those sorts of dashes are burnt.
But that was not what I was referring to. I was incredibly clearly talking about where you are when teams are squaring off; when the frontlines aren't right beside each other. You want to be in position such that if you pick someone who is out of position with a Rupture, you can then put some damage on them. A fundamental part of picking someone is killing them. It's not that hard to understand.
And this is something yellowpete is consistently bad at. Watch their games, when they get picks, unless he's on a high range ADC, his is the least damage on the pick.
Your point(with regards to positioning and skill and gameplay) requires that you are saying that. The winning team has to score somehow and how they score is critically important to this discussion, especially since in League you have to kill the nexus, there is no time limit.
It really doesn't, and asserting that it does is poisoning the well.
Idea for a champ - Mega Man. Only has a Mega Buster and a slide but any enemy champ he kills or assists in killing gives him the QWER of that slain champ. He kills another champ and he gets new abilities while losing the old ones.
Idea for a champ - Mega Man. Only has a Mega Buster and a slide but any enemy champ he kills or assists in killing gives him the QWER of that slain champ. He kills another champ and he gets new abilities while losing the old ones.
You're talking about Pulsefire Ezreal with a broken kit. Although mega-manning as the term goes could be fun. Kill a minion with this ability, it becomes a farming tool. Kill red or blue buff, it becomes a way to get mana in lane or stop enemy healing/slow. Kill a champion with a heal using it, get an ability similar to oranges. Kill a champion with a roid, it becomes a roid. Kill an assasin, get a blink. Kill a tank, get a defensive steorid. Kill a mage, get a skillshot of some kind.
Edit: It'd be a nice way to make a champion who could be very good, without being broken as hell from release until nerf.
Okay, we're just talking at complete cross purposes here.
You're talking about symmetry from the purely game theoretical sense of how the games' rules are structured. I'm talking about symmetry in the measurement of player ability at a set of strategies.
So then we can still measure a "players ability at a set of strategies" how can you say that one strategy "requires less technical skill" when well, anyone who has more "technical skill" could theoretically execute that same strategy...unless they were worse players
But that was not what I was referring to. I was incredibly clearly talking about where you are when teams are squaring off; when the frontlines aren't right beside each other. You want to be in position such that if you pick someone who is out of position with a Rupture, you can then put some damage on them. A fundamental part of picking someone is killing them. It's not that hard to understand.
And this is something yellowpete is consistently bad at. Watch their games, when they get picks, unless he's on a high range ADC, his is the least damage on the pick.
ADC's aren't really there to win 4v1's by turning it into a 5v1. If its a pick and the enemy isn't getting out it doesn't matter if the ADC is there to do damage to the enemy. ADC's are consistent damage primarily. What matters is if the ADC is there for(and surviving) the team fight.
It really doesn't, and asserting that it does is poisoning the well.
No, it really does. In order to win in league of legends you have to win at least one fight. In order to "get ahead and stay ahead" like CLG does you first have to get ahead. You cannot say that CLG is "lower skilled" when they consistently get ahead and into the position where they can stay ahead or similarly if they get behind and then proceed to eek small advantages out until they are ahead.
In short, they had to score a goal somehow, and they have to score a goal to finish too. You cannot say "this strategy requires no skill" and then ignore the fact that it requires skill to get to the point where you can execute the strategy. Literally being technically excellent is a requirement of executing CLG's game
Posts
@Lef
That is fair, but its not a fair... uhh "response" to my comment. I never said that League was symmetric.
This is what Bethryn replied to
Dong, you know this is a silly analogy. If one team picks for teamfights, and another team picks purely to push lanes and never engage in teamfights, of course the latter team is going to be more effective at executing a strategy that revolves around pushing lanes and never engaging in teamfights!
Goumindong Said:
So why don't other teams pick to push lanes and never engage in team fights? Or why don't other teams pick to engage team fights onto teams that don't want to be engaged upon?
Note that if CLG is "picking to not engage in team fights" or if CLG's strategy of pushing lanes they're not at requires a specific champion or champions those champions can be banned out.
The problem with your evaluation is that league is relatively symmetric, a team cannot "just be worst at skill" and not be counter played by another team doing the exact same thing they do.
Oh, i thought you were using him as an example of a champion who was "melee and had no on hit abilities"
cant stop wont stop the lulu top everyone just gets rocked
Type what?
Bug Type, clearly.
"Before first blood, people only type 'top,' 'mid,' or 'jung."
I think what he is saying, is that there is no communication from anyone on his team until first blood. The exceptions to that being his teammates saying things like "top", "mid", or "jungle"
But how that has anything to do with the honor system is beyond me.
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"..and because I hate those games, I hope Riot manages to make an impact with this Honor thingamajig."
TRANSLATED
Did you wipe them at baron and push the nexus before they could revive? I'm trying to come up with scenarious that could lead to a team being down that many kills and winning.
*edit* Just saw the items. I think nunu was cheating.
Perhaps, but even with incentives I don't see that making people more inclined to converse early on. At the moment I see people being nice during the game, and then begging for honor afterwards.
Which I guess makes me kind of a jerk because even if I was going to given them honor before hand, they second they ask for it it am incredibly less inclined to do it.
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Why you gotta be so stingy with honor delph? It's not like it costs you anything.
Ultimate bravery is the best.
Twitch and their bot got crazy fed early, but we got better late-game items so it worked out for us. It was an incredibly fun game.
I am a horrible horrible person sitting on my hoard of honor.
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What in the fuck?
Basically I honor any enemy that puts up a good fight/makes good plays, and any teammate that doesn't rage and doesn't get caught/make bad plays.
I started 0-2 against a Garen, ganked mid twice, then went back top and just ate his lunch all day.
The website is a harsh mistress.
Delph is the 1%.
Welcome to the brotherhood.
also i find banknunu works the best top lane, hog philo kages, then whatever after that. if you want to be a real man you can build ap items
I
Had my first game middle lane against a new Eve. Not much that really surprised me, except holy hell did they buff the crap out of hate spike's range. Plus, she will never run out of mana. It tempts me to try her out.
I did it on a whim after you posted that screenshot and it blew my mind. I think I was 11-5-39 or something absurd
Woo
"ok
i'll id"
Won't we all?
i got lebonked. Hard.
but you guys totally fed her more than me, YOU CAN'T CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
My favorite moment of that game was trying to gank her in the river and just immediately blowing up. I was teh sad
Our bottom lane was a pair of skilled players who decided they would counterpick the enemy lane. Yeah, that didn't happen. I admit I openly ignored the bottom lane. Top and middle lane helped me push their opponents out of lane, and had my back while I invaded. Plus, we used bottom lane as bait. We warded up blue and bottom river so we could see Olaf coming to their one good lane. Bottom was too dumb to get back even having so much advance warning, but we were at least on notice we had free run of the map each time. Bottom also had a bad habit of pursuing the enemy like top/middle/jungler would.
I don't normally run ignite on Shyvana, but considering their team I figured it would be a good pick. Force the Lux who had ignite out of lane with it on a light gank. Get GP to blow oranges on Xin and tag him with ignite to ensure he dies. Put it on Olaf to say f-yo-lief-steal. Worked really well.
Again, I almost feel sorry for the Lux. I had a number of pretty much psycic dodges on her light binding. Not because she played the champ at all like me, that's for sure. It's just really easy to dodge againt a bad Lux who will throw that out there instantly and hope it lands. I learned a LONG time ago that you tag an enemy with binding when they use their gap closers and commit, not when they are dancing around getting position.
Okay, we're just talking at complete cross purposes here.
You're talking about symmetry from the purely game theoretical sense of how the games' rules are structured. I'm talking about symmetry in the measurement of player ability at a set of strategies.
In an actual teamfight once you're engaged, sure, stay a little further back until those sorts of dashes are burnt.
But that was not what I was referring to. I was incredibly clearly talking about where you are when teams are squaring off; when the frontlines aren't right beside each other. You want to be in position such that if you pick someone who is out of position with a Rupture, you can then put some damage on them. A fundamental part of picking someone is killing them. It's not that hard to understand.
And this is something yellowpete is consistently bad at. Watch their games, when they get picks, unless he's on a high range ADC, his is the least damage on the pick.
It really doesn't, and asserting that it does is poisoning the well.
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
hahahahahaha ha hahaha
tanky cdr build is so stupid and strong
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
Edit: It'd be a nice way to make a champion who could be very good, without being broken as hell from release until nerf.
So then we can still measure a "players ability at a set of strategies" how can you say that one strategy "requires less technical skill" when well, anyone who has more "technical skill" could theoretically execute that same strategy...unless they were worse players
ADC's aren't really there to win 4v1's by turning it into a 5v1. If its a pick and the enemy isn't getting out it doesn't matter if the ADC is there to do damage to the enemy. ADC's are consistent damage primarily. What matters is if the ADC is there for(and surviving) the team fight.
No, it really does. In order to win in league of legends you have to win at least one fight. In order to "get ahead and stay ahead" like CLG does you first have to get ahead. You cannot say that CLG is "lower skilled" when they consistently get ahead and into the position where they can stay ahead or similarly if they get behind and then proceed to eek small advantages out until they are ahead.
In short, they had to score a goal somehow, and they have to score a goal to finish too. You cannot say "this strategy requires no skill" and then ignore the fact that it requires skill to get to the point where you can execute the strategy. Literally being technically excellent is a requirement of executing CLG's game