Options

[Planetary Annihilation] Beta has landed. Via asteroid impact.

12467

Posts

  • Options
    BastableBastable Registered User regular
    I did not want to pay $90 for early access.

    But $90 on steam for alpha/early access, sibilant echoing yeses in my obviously unhinged mind.

    I need a drink and it's still work.

    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • Options
    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    I'm really excited though. I loveeeee SupCom. I just recently figured our my disc version of FA can activate on steam. Made my day.

    Man, what? Since when? I think I tried a long time ago but it wasn't able to, or maybe I'm thinking of something else. Regardless, I'm going to do that when I get home tonight. I love SupCom2 as well but one of my friends that I play with hasn't been able to launch that game recently (despite uninstalling and reinstalling and updating all his drivers and all the usual fixes) so if I register FA and buy him a copy (which he enjoyed playing a long time ago) then we could finally play together again!

    To make this post not entirely SupCom-related, I am glad to hear that the alpha sounds rad right now, even though it's just the basics so far. I have faith that these guys can make an excellent game, and I'm excited to hear about the development as they add in the rest of the features.

    JtgVX0H.png
  • Options
    OpposingFarceOpposingFarce Registered User regular
    Nothing makes someone lose faith in an intelligent humanity quite like toxic forums or posts.

    I didn't realize release was aiming for six months. That's not bad. Will hit during my winter break too...

  • Options
    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    I can't wait till they get 32 bit working! I want to jump in to the alpha!

    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
  • Options
    LunysgwenLunysgwen Registered User regular
    subedii wrote: »
    So Alpha Access just hit Steam and the Steam forums are going abso-freaking-lutely BALLISTIC at the $90 price tag for access.

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/233250

    So this is just a friendly PSA to anyone who's seeing this for the first time:

    The $90 price tier was the price on the original Kickstarter for Alpha access. Pragmatically speaking, the price is pretty much there to LIMIT access to the Alpha. If you want to get into the Alpha and in general support the game to a hefty degree not expected of most people, then by all means, sign up. This is basically for truly hardcore fans only. As it currently stands, the Alpha forums and bug tracker are already completely swamped purely from reports and feedback from the Alpha Tiers of the the Kickstarter.

    If you want to pay a normal price, then you can, right now, or later. Just do so by visiting the main Planetary Annihilation page and visiting the store, you can pre-order for $40. Just understand, that this will be for the fully completed game when released, not for Alpha access.

    The problem with the $90 kickstarter price is that those guys started playing last week according to their news posts.

  • Options
    TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Yeah but they're going to be in the Alpha for a while. It's not like a week is what people paid $90 for.

  • Options
    NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    I have no problem with the 90$ alpha price tag.
    its like they said.with the kickstarter, this is for the.true supporters and testers.
    they want people.to work on this alpha phase.

    steam users have been spoiled by the opposite model with cheap alphas from minecraft, endless space and the like. The PAnihil guys are not beholden to any price structure but their own

    a4irovn5uqjp.png
    Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
  • Options
    DockenDocken Registered User regular
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

  • Options
    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    I understand why the developers have set the price for access where it is, and I think they have the right to do so.
    I also think that letting it get anywhere near Steam, at that price, was a huge mistake that has the potential to poison the game's rep before it even makes it to beta.
    (Especially since, from what I hear, they already have all the testers they need and the price is as much a barrier to keep out the casual looky-loos.)
    They should never have done this, and in fact, I wonder if it's too late for them to take it off. (Even though most of the PR damage has already been done, at this point.)

    Commander Zoom on
  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Docken wrote: »
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

    Rising Storm was my personal most hated. It's a stand alone expansion for RO2 that is bundled with RO2 as well if you don't own the original. In addition to this you can also play rifleman on Rising Storm maps for free if you own the original Red Orchestra 2.

    Steam forums are nothing but entitled bitching about how they should get it for free and that the demo was 'forcing them to pay'.


  • Options
    TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    yeah I totally understand why they put it up at that price, this is the alpha, everyone who kicked into the alpha had to pay at least $90, and they put it on steam for the easy way to get the game out to those alpha users.

    Unfortunately the internet is full of fuckwads who don't understand why the alpha has such a high pricetag. I really hope this doesn't shoot them in the foot because I want this game to succeed.

    also I wonder if my digital download copy of forged alliance would allow steam registration, because I haven't played supcom in forever (although I still bust out supcom2 every once in awhile)

    uNMAGLm.png Mon-Fri 8:30 PM CST - 11:30 PM CST
  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I still think they should have put the game on pre-order rather than early access and then had a collectors edition with alpha/beta access. Similar to Payday 2's. I'm not sure that would entirely prevent the internet complaining but it probably would have helped.

  • Options
    TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    yeah the backlash from people who just see the $90 price tag is ridiculous, I often forget that I hate 90% of the gaming community since the PA chaps are gentlemen and scholars

    uNMAGLm.png Mon-Fri 8:30 PM CST - 11:30 PM CST
  • Options
    LanrutconLanrutcon The LabyrinthRegistered User regular
    Any unmoderated gaming forum is a fucking cesspool. Teen gamers are assholes? fuck knows.

    Capture.jpg~original
    Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
  • Options
    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    yeah the backlash from people who just see the $90 price tag is ridiculous, I often forget that I hate 90% of the gaming community since the PA chaps are gentlemen and scholars

    + geth to keep us from getting out of control

    I often wonder how much better our lives would be if Geth were there for all of them at all times and in all places.

  • Options
    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    It's not the pricing that concerns me at all. It's Uber's track record with their last two games. It doesn't give me much confidence that they won't just walk away from this at some point leaving behind a shed full of issues.

  • Options
    TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    Drake wrote: »
    It's not the pricing that concerns me at all. It's Uber's track record with their last two games. It doesn't give me much confidence that they won't just walk away from this at some point leaving behind a shed full of issues.
    Yeah I mean, I've never been a massive fan of TA type RTS games, but PA seems pretty interesting, especially with all the crazy replay stuff they are doing. The main thing holding me back is stuff like leaving MNC out to twist in the wind or having their fans mine bitcoins for them. That stuff's just... not so cool.

  • Options
    TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    I know uber kind of neglects their other games when they focus on a new project, but I think PA will be a bit different because it doesn't necessarily need to be nursed by uber after its done.

    If they do the job right the community can put out mods and other fun stuff without needing uber to continue to provide content.

    uNMAGLm.png Mon-Fri 8:30 PM CST - 11:30 PM CST
  • Options
    NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    Didn't Tycho and Gabe propose an internet throat punching feature a few years ago?

    a4irovn5uqjp.png
    Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
  • Options
    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Didn't Tycho and Gabe propose an internet throat punching feature a few years ago?

    They are men ahead of their times they are.

  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Not close enough to see the mushroom cloud, and fairly basic visuals, but anyway...

    Blue dots are radar blips of the enemy. They're not underground, they're over the horizon:


    Untitled6_zps2f17b08d.jpg
    What goes up...


    Untitled7_zpsf833e04d.jpg
    ... must come down


    Untitled8_zps9d7d46c7.jpg
    And like that, a star is born. :)


    I would've taken better shots, but running through the chrono-cam a few times caused the game to crash. This is actually the defensive artillery cannon, at least according to the description, I don't think they've implemented the Bertha type cannon yet.

    subedii on
  • Options
    BroncbusterBroncbuster Registered User regular
    Anyone have links to decent streams or videos? I would like to drool for a while.

    steam_sig.png
    Origin: Broncbuster
  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    There's usually someone or several someone's streaming on Twitch:

    http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Planetary Annihilation

  • Options
    OpposingFarceOpposingFarce Registered User regular
    Thanks for the link.

    And yeah, the PA forums spoil you. I forget other forums can be so incredibly toxic.

    As someone who never played TA, only SupCom, I'm pretty excited.

  • Options
    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    The Steam forums are basically where every terrible freeloading entitled mentally feeble slack-jawed drooling moron with an opinion gets to wallow in filth with their peers.

  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Drake wrote: »
    The Steam forums are basically where every terrible freeloading entitled mentally feeble slack-jawed drooling moron with an opinion gets to wallow in filth with their peers.

    You know, I was set to say that Uber made a mistake even putting the game up on Early Access, especially after seeing the reaction.

    Bizarre_zpse6c6b97c.jpg

    Hahaha, man I guess I was wrong. :lol:

    Just to clarify, IIRC that list is sorted by revenue, not by volume of sales.


    EDIT: In related news, it looks like Metacritic just pulled the user reviews:

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/planetary-annihilation


    All-in-all I'm hoping this was just a flash in the pan. In retrospect I still think it wasn't the wisest decision to put the game up on Early Access when it had to go at that price, but I'm hoping there won't be any long term damage done.

    subedii on
  • Options
    VicVic Registered User regular
    subedii wrote: »
    Drake wrote: »
    The Steam forums are basically where every terrible freeloading entitled mentally feeble slack-jawed drooling moron with an opinion gets to wallow in filth with their peers.

    You know, I was set to say that Uber made a mistake even putting the game up on Early Access, especially after seeing the reaction.

    Bizarre_zpse6c6b97c.jpg

    Hahaha, man I guess I was wrong. :lol:

    Just to clarify, IIRC that list is sorted by revenue, not by volume of sales.


    EDIT: In related news, it looks like Metacritic just pulled the user reviews:

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/planetary-annihilation

    Good on Metacritic. It makes absolutely no sense to allow user reviews before the game is released, unless they made a metacritic page for the Planetary Annihilation Alpha that is entirely separate from that for the real game.

    Not that that would stop the review bombing, but it would be less ridiculous.

  • Options
    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Yeah, of course it still sold well because it's a game that has some good hype and big ambitions.

    They still probably should have gone with the whole 'pre-order at this level to get alpha access' so they could display twenty pounds or whatever as the final price and prevent the massive hissy fit being as large.

  • Options
    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    You could price it at 5 bucks for pre-release access and you'd still get piles of jerkoffs demanding the game go F2P or just tearing the game apart because of its unfinished state.

    Aside from a few edge case exceptions, there is no escape on the Steam forums.

    And despite my broad, general worries about Uber themselves I hope this game is everything it promises to be. TA did some things right off the bat that I really appreciate, like the flow-through economic model and infinite resources that limited the player with interesting bottleneck mechanics. Much better than YOU NEED MORE VESPENE GAS.

    Drake on
  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Drake wrote: »
    You could price it at 5 bucks for pre-release access and you'd still get piles of jerkoffs demanding the game go F2P or just tearing the game apart because of its unfinished state.

    Aside from a few edge case exceptions, there is no escape on the Steam forums.

    And despite my broad, general worries about Uber themselves I hope this game is everything it promises to be. TA did some things right off the bat that I really appreciate, like the flow-through economic model and infinite resources that limited the player with interesting bottleneck mechanics. Much better than YOU NEED MORE VESPENE GAS.

    Vespene Gas I could handle. "SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS!" However always felt like an additional layer of busywork.

    EDIT: With regards to flow mechanics, yeah it's a different take on things, and I think it's one that's always going to have slightly more of a learning curve to it because it's easier to crash your economy when you can start a dozen major projects at once and your output grinds to a halt as a result

    I say "slightly" because realistically it's very easy to bottleneck your economy in Starcraft as well until you've got a fundamental grasp on the opening minutes and how they should be progressing.

    subedii on
  • Options
    eobeteobet 8-bit childhood SwedenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Docken wrote: »
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

    Try the iRacing community. People who have poured thousands of dollars into a sim that turns out to have some very basic flaws even after 6 years of development yields some pretty hefty post-decision dissonance, I can tell you.

    On a different note:

    I bet this has been discussed, but I can't remember a consensus... why wasn't this Chris Taylor's Kickstarter instead of that weird caveman thing he put out? (He seemed to be financially struggling though, so maybe it was an act of desperation without much afterthought.)

    eobet on
    Heard the proposition that RIAA and MPAA should join forces and form "Music And Film Industry Association"?
  • Options
    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    Beats me, eobet. That's something else I feel kind of weird about. Uber is packing them in on the rep of TA/SupCom. Two games that they have pretty much nothing to do with, as far as I know. Meantime Chris Taylor's entire professional life is in a total meltdown.

    It just doesn't feel right to me, even though I'm not sure there is anything intrinsically wrong with it either.

  • Options
    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Drake wrote: »
    Beats me, eobet. That's something else I feel kind of weird about. Uber is packing them in on the rep of TA/SupCom. Two games that they have pretty much nothing to do with, as far as I know. Meantime Chris Taylor's entire professional life is in a total meltdown.

    It just doesn't feel right to me, even though I'm not sure there is anything intrinsically wrong with it either.

    Pretty sure several people on the Uber team worked on SupCom and SupCom2. I know for sure the guy that's working on the pathfinding in PA worked on the pathfinding in SupCom2

    JtgVX0H.png
  • Options
    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    Nice to know I don't have to be all internet bitter about this then. I really do wish Chris Taylor was in better shape, he has had so many mechanically interesting ideas and games that have fallen flat in various ways. Maybe Uber can bring him on once he's done with his personal business apocalypse.

  • Options
    KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Drake wrote: »
    Beats me, eobet. That's something else I feel kind of weird about. Uber is packing them in on the rep of TA/SupCom. Two games that they have pretty much nothing to do with, as far as I know. Meantime Chris Taylor's entire professional life is in a total meltdown.

    It just doesn't feel right to me, even though I'm not sure there is anything intrinsically wrong with it either.

    The lead on PA, Jon Mavor, worked on TA and SupComm, as did some of the team, as far as I'm aware.

    Kashaar on
    Indie Dev Blog | Twitter | Steam
    Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.

    I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Darmak wrote: »
    Drake wrote: »
    Beats me, eobet. That's something else I feel kind of weird about. Uber is packing them in on the rep of TA/SupCom. Two games that they have pretty much nothing to do with, as far as I know. Meantime Chris Taylor's entire professional life is in a total meltdown.

    It just doesn't feel right to me, even though I'm not sure there is anything intrinsically wrong with it either.

    Pretty sure several people on the Uber team worked on SupCom and SupCom2. I know for sure the guy that's working on the pathfinding in PA worked on the pathfinding in SupCom2

    Yeah Mavor (project lead) has a history on this going back to TA. He was basically the core engine coder on SupCom and something akin to secondary lead. In effect he's always been in the background on these projects.

    Quote from the Kickstarter page:
    Jon Mavor has worked in the game industry since 1993. As a longtime game engine technologist, Jon wrote the graphics engine for Total Annihilation and was the lead programmer on Supreme Commander. He has been the CTO of Uber Entertainment since its inception and is the creative lead for Planetary Annihilation.

    Steve Thompson got his start in 1997 at Cavedog Entertainment, where he worked on Total Annihilation. In 1999 he joined Gas Powered Games where he worked as an animator, director of cinematics, and art director for the Dungeon Siege and Supreme Commander franchises. Steve joined Uber in 2008 and is the art director on Planetary Annihilation.

    The pathfinding AI is flowfield mapping. Like Darmak said it's being done by the same guy that handled it in SupCom 2.

    Sorian actually started off as a modder that created the really exceptional AI mods for Supreme Commander. He's now employed as PA's full-time AI coder, as well as doing other roles.

    Aside from that there's various bits and pieces of staff who have been involved with previous games in the timeline, and a fair amount of history with other RTS's like C&C: Generals.

    subedii on
  • Options
    BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    eobet wrote: »
    Docken wrote: »
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

    Try the iRacing community. People who have poured thousands of dollars into a sim that turns out to have some very basic flaws even after 6 years of development yields some pretty hefty post-decision dissonance, I can tell you.

    On a different note:

    I bet this has been discussed, but I can't remember a consensus... why wasn't this Chris Taylor's Kickstarter instead of that weird caveman thing he put out? (He seemed to be financially struggling though, so maybe it was an act of desperation without much afterthought.)

    @eobet

    Chris actually talked about this with three moves ahead just after it became clear the kick-starter would fail.

    http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/8382-episode-203-classic-career-analysis-with-chris-taylor/

    Interesting discussions about the actual sales of TA and Supcom 1.

    Ironic thing is Taylor idea for wildman is much cooler in this podcast than what the kick starter showed. This might tie into his resignation that kick-starter is better for nostalgia projects : look we're making fatal frame, look we're making TA again, look I helped build Civilisation , give me money to make Civilisation romans and barbarians, hey imma build wing commander again etc.

    He concluded selling a new idea is too hard on kick-starter.

    Bastable on
    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

  • Options
    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    Bastable wrote: »
    eobet wrote: »
    Docken wrote: »
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

    Try the iRacing community. People who have poured thousands of dollars into a sim that turns out to have some very basic flaws even after 6 years of development yields some pretty hefty post-decision dissonance, I can tell you.

    On a different note:

    I bet this has been discussed, but I can't remember a consensus... why wasn't this Chris Taylor's Kickstarter instead of that weird caveman thing he put out? (He seemed to be financially struggling though, so maybe it was an act of desperation without much afterthought.)

    @eobet

    Chris actually talked about this with three moves ahead just after it became clear the kick-starter would fail.

    http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/8382-episode-203-classic-career-analysis-with-chris-taylor/

    Interesting discussions about the actual sales of TA and Supcom 1.

    Ironic thing is Taylor idea for wildman is much cooler in this podcast than what the kick starter showed. This might tie into his resignation that kick-starter is better for nostalgia projects : look we're making fatal frame, look we're making TA again.

    Look I helped build Civilisation , give me money to make Civilisation romans and barbarians etc.

    I really do think the Kickstarter in general was poorly executed. They didn't do enough to properly explain the game. In particular there was also the manner in which most of the staff had already been fired but this was never mentioned beforehand, and IIRC that they also needed more money than the KS goal which they'd be seeking elsewhere. It was all just kind of a mess.

    This is all before getting into the fact that he was trying to kickstart a MOBA. Aside from the ridiculous competition it'd be facing, it's also something that GPG had tackled previously and not done so great with, particularly when they didn't expand on the character sets in the way they said they would. I mean I can understand why (the game didn't sell enough to really warrant further work on it), but it still left the fanbase disappointed.

    I've said this before, but I've always felt that Chris Taylor's a dude with a lot of good ideas but is badly in need of the game design equivalent of an editor to filter out the bad ones.

    subedii on
  • Options
    BastableBastable Registered User regular
    edited June 2013
    subedii wrote: »
    Bastable wrote: »
    eobet wrote: »
    Docken wrote: »
    Oh god I am being stupid and arguing with Steam trolls on their announcement page.

    One thing is for sure, Steam is close to 4Chan levels of stupidity... I can't believe it.

    I used to think the Halo community was the absolute basement of the gaming public... boy was I wrong!!!

    Try the iRacing community. People who have poured thousands of dollars into a sim that turns out to have some very basic flaws even after 6 years of development yields some pretty hefty post-decision dissonance, I can tell you.

    On a different note:

    I bet this has been discussed, but I can't remember a consensus... why wasn't this Chris Taylor's Kickstarter instead of that weird caveman thing he put out? (He seemed to be financially struggling though, so maybe it was an act of desperation without much afterthought.)

    @eobet

    Chris actually talked about this with three moves ahead just after it became clear the kick-starter would fail.

    http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/8382-episode-203-classic-career-analysis-with-chris-taylor/

    Interesting discussions about the actual sales of TA and Supcom 1.

    Ironic thing is Taylor idea for wildman is much cooler in this podcast than what the kick starter showed. This might tie into his resignation that kick-starter is better for nostalgia projects : look we're making fatal frame, look we're making TA again.

    Look I helped build Civilisation , give me money to make Civilisation romans and barbarians etc.

    I really do think the Kickstarter in general was poorly executed. They didn't do enough to properly explain the game. In particular there was also the manner in which most of the staff had already been fired but this was never mentioned beforehand, and IIRC that they also needed more money than the KS goal which they'd be seeking elsewhere. It was all just kind of a mess.

    This is all before getting into the fact that he was trying to kickstart a MOBA. Aside from the ridiculous competition it'd be facing, it's also something that GPG had tackled previously and not done so great with, particularly when they didn't expand on the character sets in the way they said they would. I mean I can understand why (the game didn't sell enough to really warrant further work on it), but it still left the fanbase disappointed.

    I've said this before, but I've always felt that Chris Taylor's a dude with a lot of good ideas but is badly in need of the game design equivalent of an editor to filter out the bad ones.

    Listen to the thing it's not even quite a moba, they did a really poor job of explaining what they were going to make with wildman.

    Bastable on
    Philippe about the tactical deployment of german Kradschützen during the battle of Kursk:
    "I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan."

Sign In or Register to comment.