Yeah employer isn't too bad since I have a resume full of dates. But living history sucks since rent ALWAYS increases when you live at a place more than a year here, so you have to pack up and move every year.
And, with that, I have filled out the application! I am still very nervous.
Well, on the bright side maybe now you're getting paid enough that you can afford to live in the same place for more than a year?
Yeah I eat the first two rent ups and then I ask if I can move out and back in to a different apartment for the advertise rent that's now $100 less than what I am paying.
I get funny looks and then they laugh. Then I have to reiterate I'm serious.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Gettin kinda nervous about this job thing. What if I'm not any good at the new place? I don't know... I'm getting jittery. Is this normal? I've never been in this situation before... it's always been a do or die situation.
Loosen up. They wouldn't have hired you if they weren't confident you could do the job at hand!
Nervousness is normal. Try to channel it, even. To quote, "Butterflies in your stomach aren't bad, as long as you can make them fly in formation."
Wait, @urahonky they hired you?
Did I miss the announcement or something?
Congrats!
Oh I talked to them already and did the formal interview. They are on the process of getting the application going. They asked me desired salary and I put 55K.
I don't move every year I'll usually swallow one or two moderate rent increases (mine was $25 this year) before I'll endure the pain of moving. At some point, all rentals price themselves out. What's maddening is that the guy that moves in after me will probably pay the lower rent. You'd think they would want to keep a stable resident sheet, but the system isn't setup that way.
/stupidrentrant
Someday when my personal life settles down a bit, I'll buy.
Last year, my apartment wanted to raise rent by $70/month to $835/month. (And I had been making only $36k for about half that year, and $40k in the latter half. And I don't have any roommates. So that's a pretty huge amount of money for me.)
I went to the apartment office one Saturday morning and asked how much a 1 bedroom cost. It was quite a bit lower than what I was being asked to pay -- $815/month. I was not happy with that, and the person who was in the office that morning was a complete goose about it. (In fact, it was probably the worst customer-service interaction I have ever experienced, as a customer at least.)
I ended up speaking to his manager, who asked me to write a formal complaint about his behavior. I wrote it up and moved elsewhere.
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
I do have schooling but I thought "experience" is different from schooling? I am just having a hard time "valuing" myself. 75K, to me, seemed like it was WAY too high... Though I should have put 60... That way if they talk me down to 55K I'd be okay with that. Like I said: I've never really been able to put a value on myself.
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
Interviewer: What kind of compensation would you feel to be fair, bowen?
Bowen, internal monologue: Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife."
[moments later]
Interviewer: SECURITY!
Remember what we said. Ask high, and get negotiated down to what you want. 65k would've been better this way you'll end up where you want it to be! 75K was just the "well this is what someone with my skillset should be getting."
You may only have 1 year of on the job, but damnit man, you're not an entry level developer. You took their shitty projects and ran with it. You put that shit on your resume. That looks damn good. "XYZ Co: Developed an integrated memory scanning software. Planned and developed agnostic UI software for RAD system integrations. (ETC)" is better than "worked on a bunch of projects at XYZ Co"
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
Interviewer: What kind of compensation would you feel to be fair, bowen?
Bowen, internal monologue: Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife."
[moments later]
Interviewer: SECURITY!
"Ushered."
I once said bullshit to someone's claims on an interview. That was the best day. In fairness I didn't know the guy knew my ex boss and had talked to him.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
I do have schooling but I thought "experience" is different from schooling? I am just having a hard time "valuing" myself. 75K, to me, seemed like it was WAY too high... Though I should have put 60... That way if they talk me down to 55K I'd be okay with that. Like I said: I've never really been able to put a value on myself.
The labor that you do is skilled labor. There is a huge swath of the population who simply cannot accomplish it. It is beyond their ability.
Furthermore, the labor that you do is creative labor. The fact that you have your head on straight and can competently accomplish tasks puts you ahead of a huge portion of even the quite small selection of trained individuals.
Competency is incredibly valuable. There's a reason people call programmers "talented." Would you expect to pay a lot for a performance by a talented musician? What would you pay to full-time hire a talented musician?
You know you have room to grow. However, by virtue of the simple things you come in here to complain about (I recognize my coworker made this terrible mistake, I have to correct this code I would never write because it's so bad, etc), you have proven that you are ahead of the curve, and leading the pack. Would you be cheaper than a developer with 10 years of experience? Probably. But you should absolutely be more expensive than you think you are!
Especially since he was so undervalued as he is. And the person who recommended him said so! That was the biggest hint!
Take it from me man, even with ITT Tech I am worth a hell of a lot. You, probably not having gone to ITT Tech, are worth more than me. Think about that for a second.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I know I'm sorry guys... I felt way too uneasy putting more than 10K more than what I'm getting paid here... The same page asked me how much I was making at this job.
I know I'm sorry guys... I felt way too uneasy putting more than 10K more than what I'm getting paid here... The same page asked me how much I was making at this job.
Is this a question that it is okay not to answer? I'm wondering in general, from the interviewing pros in the thread.
Well, you never lie about past wages, that is one thing that a company will reveal on a background check.
Second, don't ever feel lik eyou shouldn't be asking above a certain #. Let them say no, no that's too much, the worst that happens is that you ask them "well, then what do you think the position is worth". If overshooting the salary range dq's you from the process this deep into it, i guarantee you that you wouldn't want the job anyway.
(that isn't to say that employers aren't playing stupid hiring games these days, my wife litereally laughed at an HR drone who offered her 10% below what she's currently making for a position that was much more travel and effort. They're clueless, and sometimes you have to remind them of that)
It is acceptable to put "to be discussed" in place of a past salary that isn't doing number checks.
If it's forced by software, be honest. Round up to the nearest 5K, though.
So if I make 52,430 my salary should be documented as 55,000. Me putting 75K doesn't mean beans. I could be undervalued, there could have been wage freezing, the business could be doing poorly, it could be a multitude of things.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It is acceptable to put "to be discussed" in place of a past salary that isn't doing number checks.
If it's forced by software, be honest. Round up to the nearest 5K, though.
So if I make 52,430 my salary should be documented as 55,000. Me putting 75K doesn't mean beans. I could be undervalued, there could have been wage freezing, the business could be doing poorly, it could be a multitude of things.
This is what I was thinking. Who cares that I'm currently making $X,000, I could be looking for a job for plenty of reasons, quite possibly including that I feel I'm being paid far less than I'm worth, and if a new business doesn't offer me what I feel I'm worth, I'll be doing this whole thing again soon.
Basically when salary negotiations come down @urahonky needs to, with a solid face, explain that he thought putting his actual salary demand on the page would have caused the system to automatically reject it based on his old salary. Just go after that and say "I think my skill and knowledge and willingness to succeed puts me at $X,000 (in this case 75,000). I'm negotiable but I feel like my current position at my company is severely undervalued for the level of skill they're getting in return, and the type of duties I've been assigned, and that's the major reason I'm looking around."
Then you follow up with a smattering of job duties, lightly embellished to make them sound amazing and not at all impractical (ask us for help, me and Joe K are apparently super good at this), and then you smile and shake hands and thank them for their time and write a thank you card and a follow up letter shortly after (3 days roughly) explaining how you're excited to be part of the team and hope they consider you for the job.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You have way more than 1 year experience. You went to school right?
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
I do have schooling but I thought "experience" is different from schooling? I am just having a hard time "valuing" myself. 75K, to me, seemed like it was WAY too high... Though I should have put 60... That way if they talk me down to 55K I'd be okay with that. Like I said: I've never really been able to put a value on myself.
I'm going to give you different advice than other people in this thread. If you asked for 75k with one year (or even two years) experience in NC you would be laughed out of the interview.
Like the discussion on non-compete agreements, the salary you should be asking for depends highly on the cost of living where you are. Take their advice on negotiating, but ignore their advice on specific numbers unless they're citing salary information for the city you live in.
The problem is @gjaustin $75K is applicable to the area he's in and Software Developer level 2 (which he is). I linked that with both salary.com and glassdoor's info (where he was applying).
Couple that with the reaction he got from his friend when he mentioned 50K and "...don't sell yourself too short."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
I assume prologues mean the blurb about use of the class at the top? I also try to use XML comments in Visual studio to deal with parameters in a function call.
This most assuredly gets left out on really obvious stuff, or, if I'm hurrying, though.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
and the only way to make up that ground is to demand it. the worst they say is NO, and you ask them what they think. It's the easiest 20k raise that you'll ever give yourself.
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
This stuff is really hammered hard in school. Especially with C# and the documentation processor piece of visual studio with those XML comments. Makes generating API references amazingly easy if you take the time now instead of later. Like, seconds instead of hours.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
well, then since your the senior guy, you get to be the one that makes up the inane commenting "rules" :-)
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
well, then since your the senior guy, you get to be the one that makes up the inane commenting "rules" :-)
I am just carrying over the rules that were set 5-6 years ago. I don't mind mild comments for really complex code, but they are asking me to review some stuff from another group, and out of 100 lines, 40 are comments. If you are seriously commenting that you set a value to false because your expression evaluates that way it makes me sad.
I need to know if I am a zealot and an asshole or just a zealot. How many of you use class prologues, full on method prologues and comment every single method call?
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
This stuff is really hammered hard in school. Especially with C# and the documentation processor piece of visual studio with those XML comments. Makes generating API references amazingly easy if you take the time now instead of later. Like, seconds instead of hours.
That is what my guys are telling me, they are asking why no comments, and I have said that if you need to comment extensively perhaps your code isn't written clearly.
Posts
seven years was my first year of college (or was it second year?)
heh
Well, on the bright side maybe now you're getting paid enough that you can afford to live in the same place for more than a year?
SE++ Forum Battle Archive
I get funny looks and then they laugh. Then I have to reiterate I'm serious.
Did I miss the announcement or something?
Congrats!
We will miss your tales of insanity.
I think they're about to do the "We want to hire you, so let's talk salary and benefits" spiel here pretty soon, though.
Joe's Stream.
Last year, my apartment wanted to raise rent by $70/month to $835/month. (And I had been making only $36k for about half that year, and $40k in the latter half. And I don't have any roommates. So that's a pretty huge amount of money for me.)
I went to the apartment office one Saturday morning and asked how much a 1 bedroom cost. It was quite a bit lower than what I was being asked to pay -- $815/month. I was not happy with that, and the person who was in the office that morning was a complete goose about it. (In fact, it was probably the worst customer-service interaction I have ever experienced, as a customer at least.)
I ended up speaking to his manager, who asked me to write a formal complaint about his behavior. I wrote it up and moved elsewhere.
Now I pay $700/month for rent.
I couldn't justify that much to put on there... With only 1 yr experience and living in Dayton OH.
55K would be an additional 20%.
e: I know you guys hate me... But I really didn't want to go TOO high and I was just getting super nervous about the whole thing.
You've been talking about this stuff for at least 2 years now. Worst they could tell you is no and go down. Never ever undersell yourself. Hardly have I ever been ushered out for asking too much.
I do have schooling but I thought "experience" is different from schooling? I am just having a hard time "valuing" myself. 75K, to me, seemed like it was WAY too high... Though I should have put 60... That way if they talk me down to 55K I'd be okay with that. Like I said: I've never really been able to put a value on myself.
Interviewer: What kind of compensation would you feel to be fair, bowen?
Bowen, internal monologue: Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife." Don't say "$80k and a weekend with your wife."
[moments later]
Interviewer: SECURITY!
"Ushered."
You may only have 1 year of on the job, but damnit man, you're not an entry level developer. You took their shitty projects and ran with it. You put that shit on your resume. That looks damn good. "XYZ Co: Developed an integrated memory scanning software. Planned and developed agnostic UI software for RAD system integrations. (ETC)" is better than "worked on a bunch of projects at XYZ Co"
I once said bullshit to someone's claims on an interview. That was the best day. In fairness I didn't know the guy knew my ex boss and had talked to him.
The labor that you do is skilled labor. There is a huge swath of the population who simply cannot accomplish it. It is beyond their ability.
Furthermore, the labor that you do is creative labor. The fact that you have your head on straight and can competently accomplish tasks puts you ahead of a huge portion of even the quite small selection of trained individuals.
Competency is incredibly valuable. There's a reason people call programmers "talented." Would you expect to pay a lot for a performance by a talented musician? What would you pay to full-time hire a talented musician?
You know you have room to grow. However, by virtue of the simple things you come in here to complain about (I recognize my coworker made this terrible mistake, I have to correct this code I would never write because it's so bad, etc), you have proven that you are ahead of the curve, and leading the pack. Would you be cheaper than a developer with 10 years of experience? Probably. But you should absolutely be more expensive than you think you are!
Take it from me man, even with ITT Tech I am worth a hell of a lot. You, probably not having gone to ITT Tech, are worth more than me. Think about that for a second.
Is this a question that it is okay not to answer? I'm wondering in general, from the interviewing pros in the thread.
0,000.01
Alternately 99,999.99
Second, don't ever feel lik eyou shouldn't be asking above a certain #. Let them say no, no that's too much, the worst that happens is that you ask them "well, then what do you think the position is worth". If overshooting the salary range dq's you from the process this deep into it, i guarantee you that you wouldn't want the job anyway.
(that isn't to say that employers aren't playing stupid hiring games these days, my wife litereally laughed at an HR drone who offered her 10% below what she's currently making for a position that was much more travel and effort. They're clueless, and sometimes you have to remind them of that)
Joe's Stream.
If it's forced by software, be honest. Round up to the nearest 5K, though.
So if I make 52,430 my salary should be documented as 55,000. Me putting 75K doesn't mean beans. I could be undervalued, there could have been wage freezing, the business could be doing poorly, it could be a multitude of things.
This is what I was thinking. Who cares that I'm currently making $X,000, I could be looking for a job for plenty of reasons, quite possibly including that I feel I'm being paid far less than I'm worth, and if a new business doesn't offer me what I feel I'm worth, I'll be doing this whole thing again soon.
Then you follow up with a smattering of job duties, lightly embellished to make them sound amazing and not at all impractical (ask us for help, me and Joe K are apparently super good at this), and then you smile and shake hands and thank them for their time and write a thank you card and a follow up letter shortly after (3 days roughly) explaining how you're excited to be part of the team and hope they consider you for the job.
I'm going to give you different advice than other people in this thread. If you asked for 75k with one year (or even two years) experience in NC you would be laughed out of the interview.
Like the discussion on non-compete agreements, the salary you should be asking for depends highly on the cost of living where you are. Take their advice on negotiating, but ignore their advice on specific numbers unless they're citing salary information for the city you live in.
Couple that with the reaction he got from his friend when he mentioned 50K and "...don't sell yourself too short."
I assume prologues mean the blurb about use of the class at the top? I also try to use XML comments in Visual studio to deal with parameters in a function call.
This most assuredly gets left out on really obvious stuff, or, if I'm hurrying, though.
depends, you coding for school or the real world?
school: you can't comment enough, the professors are insane, comment even the inana shit
real world: comment large blocks or particularly tricky sections...
Joe's Stream.
Joe's Stream.
This is the real world. We hired two Jr. Software Engineers and I am teaching them that commenting isn't needed. We are writing C# and we have access to a lot of tools.
This stuff is really hammered hard in school. Especially with C# and the documentation processor piece of visual studio with those XML comments. Makes generating API references amazingly easy if you take the time now instead of later. Like, seconds instead of hours.
well, then since your the senior guy, you get to be the one that makes up the inane commenting "rules" :-)
Joe's Stream.
I am just carrying over the rules that were set 5-6 years ago. I don't mind mild comments for really complex code, but they are asking me to review some stuff from another group, and out of 100 lines, 40 are comments. If you are seriously commenting that you set a value to false because your expression evaluates that way it makes me sad.
That is what my guys are telling me, they are asking why no comments, and I have said that if you need to comment extensively perhaps your code isn't written clearly.