if you're dealing with freshly minted cs grads, they have to have it beaten out of them that verbose commenting is a bad habit learned in college for instance:
c = a + b; //add a to b, store in c
that's bad.
If you're documenting input/outputs, tricky parts, thats good. but going by the python meme code is read 80% of the time, make it readable to begin with.
The problem is @gjaustin $75K is applicable to the area he's in and Software Developer level 2 (which he is). I linked that with both salary.com and glassdoor's info (where he was applying).
Couple that with the reaction he got from his friend when he mentioned 50K and "...don't sell yourself too short."
Your links did not convince me.
A big thing is that I disagree with you that he's clearly a Software Developer 2. He's on the line, so asking for a salary that's above the median for a position where there will be people with 4+ times his experience is asking to come across as unreasonable.
Especially since he's been asked for previous salary. Requesting a 66% raise will always appear unreasonable.
Having been in almost his exact situation (seriously, all the numbers line up and it looks like Dayton and RTP have similar ranges), he'll probably get his $55k and come across as having reasonable expectations. $65k would be good (still a nearly 50% raise), such that he probably wouldn't get it but could maybe squeeze out a little bit more.
$75k is too much. I'm not surprised that he decided it was an absurd demand and dropped to $55k. Trying to convince someone to not undervalue himself by convincing him to overvalue himself is not, IMO, productive.
Edit: Yes, I'm being confrontational here. But I feel like you're bludgeoning urahonky a bit more than he deserves.
The problem is @gjaustin $75K is applicable to the area he's in and Software Developer level 2 (which he is). I linked that with both salary.com and glassdoor's info (where he was applying).
Couple that with the reaction he got from his friend when he mentioned 50K and "...don't sell yourself too short."
Your links did not convince me.
A big thing is that I disagree with you that he's clearly a Software Developer 2. He's on the line, so asking for a salary that's above the median for a position where there will be people with 4+ times his experience is asking to come across as unreasonable.
Especially since he's been asked for previous salary. Requesting a 66% raise will always appear unreasonable.
Having been in almost his exact situation (seriously, all the numbers line up and it looks like Dayton and RTP have similar ranges), he'll probably get his $55k and come across as having reasonable expectations. $65k would be good (still a nearly 50% raise), such that he probably wouldn't get it but could maybe squeeze out a little bit more.
$75k is too much. I'm not surprised that he decided it was an absurd demand and dropped to $55k. Trying to convince someone to not undervalue himself by convincing him to overvalue himself is not, IMO, productive.
Those are all terrible reasons. Like I said, I could be in a depressed company. I've gotten 100% raises before. You always overvalue yourself because if he put 75K, he's going to get talked down to 55k.
I can guarantee it. Never put what you think you should make because it's absurd. Put what you think you're worth. Trust me, $75K is chump change.
You might want to reconsider your own employment if these are your points. Even in upstate NY, $75K is a reasonable number, and it's a fucking dead zone for IT up here. Someone developing for microcontrollers? With no experience? Succedding?
I am concerned you are undervaluing honky, and more importantly, yourself.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I was in honky's position too, by the way, you may have missed that. I was doing exactly what honky is doing now. I didn't quite develop for micro-controller, but that doesn't mean my boss didn't try. My exboss actually listened to me when I cautioned how stupid it was. Especially for someone with no DoD backbone of money pouring in.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
if you're dealing with freshly minted cs grads, they have to have it beaten out of them that verbose commenting is a bad habit learned in college for instance:
c = a + b; //add a to b, store in c
that's bad.
If you're documenting input/outputs, tricky parts, thats good. but going by the python meme code is read 80% of the time, make it readable to begin with.
That's what I am trying to teach them. I recently got handed some code to review from another department, and out of 100 lines of code in one class, 40 are comments. I told them that they shouldn't write comments like that.
People with 10 years of experience, also, are asking for far more than that, in the field he's going in to. Java devs are actually well paid, believe it or not. Experienced ones mint money, basically. Think of them as a more modern COBOL dev.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
When are you all quitting your jobs and starting to do Clojure for fun?
When I get hired by google and live in NYC making $120K+ a year.
you'll be the lowest paid guy working for google in manhattan.
look, i've had offers that have been 60%+. I priced myself for where I am, and for the degree of side-benefits that I enjoy here. It's nice to work a reasonable week, raise kids, coach their sports teams and train karate with them. Really.
I've had offers that were 60% increases, I'm pretty damn sure that I could over double my base, if I wanted to give up this thing I call a "family life".
There is no risk for @urahonky going in with an "absurd" demand, getting politely rejected and adjusting to their expectations. Who knows it may even work! What I guarantee it WON'T do is disqualify honky from a process that he's this deep in. There is literally no risk involved.
I'm reminded of one of those self-help books where the author was trying to increase his speaking fees, but was worried about jumping his rates from $6k/lecture to 10k/lecture. One of his friends convinced him to shoot for the stars, he asked for 15k his next lecture, and they said yes without blinking.
Turns out, the university had 20k budgeted for the speaker. He still left money on the table.
At this point in negotiations, the employee holds the most power that he will at any time in the relationship. Ask for a too high of salary, make them say no. Ask for more vacation, if they say it's just standard and not negotiable, tell them they're right, it ISN'T negotiable, and that you need their standard +X weeks. Negotiate a severence package up front. Since your relatively new at this honky, start at 2 weeks, +1/year served.
They already want you, they need you, now it's time to get greedy and milk everything that you can out of them. There will never be a point in time that you will have more bargaining power than RIGHT NOW.
if you're dealing with freshly minted cs grads, they have to have it beaten out of them that verbose commenting is a bad habit learned in college for instance:
c = a + b; //add a to b, store in c
that's bad.
If you're documenting input/outputs, tricky parts, thats good. but going by the python meme code is read 80% of the time, make it readable to begin with.
That's what I am trying to teach them. I recently got handed some code to review from another department, and out of 100 lines of code in one class, 40 are comments. I told them that they shouldn't write comments like that.
Are you including class documentation in "comments", or do you mean actual comments? I always document a (library) class. My comments, on the other hand are more of the snappy/sarcastic variety, usually when I am displeased and would like somebody else to fix it ;o)
Hah Manhattan says $120k for startert devs at google @joe k
I was obviously going to ask for $140k. My current salary is roughly $60K with everything included (vacations). I guess you could consider me programmer 2 since I don't really deal with high end problems and don't get nitty gritty like ecco does.
Am I shooting low there? (Even I need advice too)
Obviously Cost of living comparisons, but glassdoor says 120k so, didn't know how high I should shoot here.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Hah Manhattan says $120k for startert devs at google @joe k
I was obviously going to ask for $140k. My current salary is roughly $60K with everything included (vacations). I guess you could consider me programmer 2 since I don't really deal with high end problems and don't get nitty gritty like ecco does.
Am I shooting low there? (Even I need advice too)
Obviously Cost of living comparisons, but glassdoor says 120k so, didn't know how high I should shoot here.
Decent Valet's at plush Upper East Side Condo's make $120k/yr
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
if you're dealing with freshly minted cs grads, they have to have it beaten out of them that verbose commenting is a bad habit learned in college for instance:
c = a + b; //add a to b, store in c
that's bad.
If you're documenting input/outputs, tricky parts, thats good. but going by the python meme code is read 80% of the time, make it readable to begin with.
That's what I am trying to teach them. I recently got handed some code to review from another department, and out of 100 lines of code in one class, 40 are comments. I told them that they shouldn't write comments like that.
Are you including class documentation in "comments", or do you mean actual comments? I always document a (library) class. My comments, on the other hand are more of the snappy/sarcastic variety, usually when I am displeased and would like somebody else to fix it ;o)
If by class documentation you mean the auto-generated stuff at the top that tells me who wrote the class (Mercurial tells me the same thing), what the class is named (not hard to figure out) then yes I am counting that.
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
depends on the formality of the HR banding structure. Honestly, I usually negotiate a title during exit interview. Bigger companies like to stick to the big book of salary grades, and you may be able to find out possible career paths. other companies, lord knows, hope that you share genetics with the owners.
Hah Manhattan says $120k for startert devs at google @joe k
I was obviously going to ask for $140k. My current salary is roughly $60K with everything included (vacations). I guess you could consider me programmer 2 since I don't really deal with high end problems and don't get nitty gritty like ecco does.
Am I shooting low there? (Even I need advice too)
Obviously Cost of living comparisons, but glassdoor says 120k so, didn't know how high I should shoot here.
If I remember some stuff you wrote about what you do correctly, it sounds like you tend to do a lot of work by yourself without supervision?
That sounds more like a Software Engineer 3 to me.
Programmer 2 handles a bit more than bug fixing, tends to take on implementing new stuff at the direction of a lead programmer, between 1-4 years of exp
Programmer 3 tends to be the real meat and potatoes coder. Usually in charge of tying shit together, making it work, etc. Often times a team lead or low level management.
Programmer 4 tends to be the consultant guy, meets with customers, plans and designs, organizes the teams, leads the project, makes schedules, handles issues with implementation (this guy hardly codes anymore)
After this you are pretty much "Guru" and get paid to show up. You're required to grow a beard. You're the programmer equivalent of the gray beard.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Hah Manhattan says $120k for startert devs at google @joe k
I was obviously going to ask for $140k. My current salary is roughly $60K with everything included (vacations). I guess you could consider me programmer 2 since I don't really deal with high end problems and don't get nitty gritty like ecco does.
Am I shooting low there? (Even I need advice too)
Obviously Cost of living comparisons, but glassdoor says 120k so, didn't know how high I should shoot here.
If I remember some stuff you wrote about what you do correctly, it sounds like you tend to do a lot of work by yourself without supervision?
That sounds more like a Software Engineer 3 to me.
That's probably where I'd put myself. Yeah. I'm developing an CCHIT certified EHR from scratch (we're shooting for level 4-5 certification (max is 5)).
Longest year of my life, though. Stressful.
@Zeeny , yeah I'm wrapping up my resume and submitting it in the next week. I don't expect much but I would enjoy the challenge immensely. And the new scenery. And the new found freedom that kind of money would get me.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Programmer 2 handles a bit more than bug fixing, tends to take on implementing new stuff at the direction of a lead programmer, between 1-4 years of exp
Programmer 3 tends to be the real meat and potatoes coder. Usually in charge of tying shit together, making it work, etc. Often times a team lead or low level management.
Programmer 4 tends to be the consultant guy, meets with customers, plans and designs, organizes the teams, leads the project, makes schedules, handles issues with implementation (this guy hardly codes anymore)
After this you are pretty much "Guru" and get paid to show up. You're required to grow a beard. You're the programmer equivalent of the gray beard.
I grew a beard and the jerks still won't change my title.
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
It's difficult comparing numbers (and to a lesser extent titles) between companies.
For example, at my current company I'm a SWE5 (Senior Software Engineer). Except our scale goes the other way, so a SWE1 would be the CTO!
In my experience, the existence of the list of requirements is pretty standard. Though at any job I've been at, supervising two other Engineers means you're a Senior Engineer.
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
It's difficult comparing numbers (and to a lesser extent titles) between companies.
For example, at my current company I'm a SWE5 (Senior Software Engineer). Except our scale goes the other way, so a SWE1 would be the CTO!
In my experience, the existence of the list of requirements is pretty standard. Though at any job I've been at, supervising two other Engineers means you're a Senior Engineer.
I guess that is the disconnect I have. I don't have a 4 year degree, but I have 6 years experience and am supervising 2 people.
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
depends on the formality of the HR banding structure. Honestly, I usually negotiate a title during exit interview. Bigger companies like to stick to the big book of salary grades, and you may be able to find out possible career paths. other companies, lord knows, hope that you share genetics with the owners.
I got hired on as "Computer Programmer I", that was what was on my paperwork. So I put it in my company email sigs, so random customers might have some idea what I do and do not know about. My boss took me aside later and basically said "Really, you're just a Computer Programmer, the number is silly."
This place is very small.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
It's difficult comparing numbers (and to a lesser extent titles) between companies.
For example, at my current company I'm a SWE5 (Senior Software Engineer). Except our scale goes the other way, so a SWE1 would be the CTO!
In my experience, the existence of the list of requirements is pretty standard. Though at any job I've been at, supervising two other Engineers means you're a Senior Engineer.
I guess that is the disconnect I have. I don't have a 4 year degree, but I have 6 years experience and am supervising 2 people.
If you can't get them to give you the Senior Software Engineer title with that much experience and those job duties, it may be time for you to find somewhere else that will.
Have you sat down with your manager and gone over the requirements that you're lacking and requested you get the opportunity to make up those gaps?
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
I hope not. Apparently Manhattan is much more lax about it than the west coast offices, from what I hear. But that's rumor.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
If you can't get them to give you the Senior Software Engineer title with that much experience and those job duties, it may be time for you to find somewhere else that will.
Have you sat down with your manager and gone over the requirements that you're lacking and requested you get the opportunity to make up those gaps?
He should be getting a raise and title change just for managing two people, tbh.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
How do the companies you fine persons work for handle job titles? Mine has a strict document that outlines things you must have before you get a title. Therefore, I am a SWE2 supervising two SWE1's. I have a shot in the dark at becoming a Senior Software Engineer.
It's difficult comparing numbers (and to a lesser extent titles) between companies.
For example, at my current company I'm a SWE5 (Senior Software Engineer). Except our scale goes the other way, so a SWE1 would be the CTO!
In my experience, the existence of the list of requirements is pretty standard. Though at any job I've been at, supervising two other Engineers means you're a Senior Engineer.
I guess that is the disconnect I have. I don't have a 4 year degree, but I have 6 years experience and am supervising 2 people.
If you can't get them to give you the Senior Software Engineer title with that much experience and those job duties, it may be time for you to find somewhere else that will.
Have you sat down with your manager and gone over the requirements that you're lacking and requested you get the opportunity to make up those gaps?
I have, the problem is that the "Job Title" requires a degree. They are trying to change it all, but change is slow here.
If you can't get them to give you the Senior Software Engineer title with that much experience and those job duties, it may be time for you to find somewhere else that will.
Have you sat down with your manager and gone over the requirements that you're lacking and requested you get the opportunity to make up those gaps?
He should be getting a raise and title change just for managing two people, tbh.
You'll get no disagreement from me on that!
I'm just covering the case where he doesn't want to change jobs and his HR department is stubborn. Or he has a legitimate skill gap that could be problematic if not addressed.
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
I hope not. Apparently Manhattan is much more lax about it than the west coast offices, from what I hear. But that's rumor.
google still heavily favors near 4.0's from S-Tier schools, and Advanced Degrees. The exception being that you've got a Kessel run story that is truly noteworthy "I invented C++" noteworthy.
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
I hope not. Apparently Manhattan is much more lax about it than the west coast offices, from what I hear. But that's rumor.
google still heavily favors near 4.0's from S-Tier schools, and Advanced Degrees. The exception being that you've got a Kessel run story that is truly noteworthy "I invented C++" noteworthy.
I hear this same sort of thing, but I hear if you can make an impression you have as good a chance as anyone.
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
I hope not. Apparently Manhattan is much more lax about it than the west coast offices, from what I hear. But that's rumor.
google still heavily favors near 4.0's from S-Tier schools, and Advanced Degrees. The exception being that you've got a Kessel run story that is truly noteworthy "I invented C++" noteworthy.
I hear this same sort of thing, but I hear if you can make an impression you have as good a chance as anyone.
I'd imagine the difficulty is getting past the pre-screening process.
Posts
For those that didn't know about the XML comments. They are super amazing.
If you're documenting input/outputs, tricky parts, thats good. but going by the python meme code is read 80% of the time, make it readable to begin with.
Joe's Stream.
Your links did not convince me.
A big thing is that I disagree with you that he's clearly a Software Developer 2. He's on the line, so asking for a salary that's above the median for a position where there will be people with 4+ times his experience is asking to come across as unreasonable.
Especially since he's been asked for previous salary. Requesting a 66% raise will always appear unreasonable.
Having been in almost his exact situation (seriously, all the numbers line up and it looks like Dayton and RTP have similar ranges), he'll probably get his $55k and come across as having reasonable expectations. $65k would be good (still a nearly 50% raise), such that he probably wouldn't get it but could maybe squeeze out a little bit more.
$75k is too much. I'm not surprised that he decided it was an absurd demand and dropped to $55k. Trying to convince someone to not undervalue himself by convincing him to overvalue himself is not, IMO, productive.
Edit: Yes, I'm being confrontational here. But I feel like you're bludgeoning urahonky a bit more than he deserves.
When I get hired by google and live in NYC making $120K+ a year.
Unacceptable. How about being homeless and staying happy with the simple things in life, like, tail recursion?
Those are all terrible reasons. Like I said, I could be in a depressed company. I've gotten 100% raises before. You always overvalue yourself because if he put 75K, he's going to get talked down to 55k.
I can guarantee it. Never put what you think you should make because it's absurd. Put what you think you're worth. Trust me, $75K is chump change.
You might want to reconsider your own employment if these are your points. Even in upstate NY, $75K is a reasonable number, and it's a fucking dead zone for IT up here. Someone developing for microcontrollers? With no experience? Succedding?
I am concerned you are undervaluing honky, and more importantly, yourself.
That's what I am trying to teach them. I recently got handed some code to review from another department, and out of 100 lines of code in one class, 40 are comments. I told them that they shouldn't write comments like that.
Way too cold up here in NYS to do that!
you'll be the lowest paid guy working for google in manhattan.
look, i've had offers that have been 60%+. I priced myself for where I am, and for the degree of side-benefits that I enjoy here. It's nice to work a reasonable week, raise kids, coach their sports teams and train karate with them. Really.
I've had offers that were 60% increases, I'm pretty damn sure that I could over double my base, if I wanted to give up this thing I call a "family life".
There is no risk for @urahonky going in with an "absurd" demand, getting politely rejected and adjusting to their expectations. Who knows it may even work! What I guarantee it WON'T do is disqualify honky from a process that he's this deep in. There is literally no risk involved.
I'm reminded of one of those self-help books where the author was trying to increase his speaking fees, but was worried about jumping his rates from $6k/lecture to 10k/lecture. One of his friends convinced him to shoot for the stars, he asked for 15k his next lecture, and they said yes without blinking.
Turns out, the university had 20k budgeted for the speaker. He still left money on the table.
At this point in negotiations, the employee holds the most power that he will at any time in the relationship. Ask for a too high of salary, make them say no. Ask for more vacation, if they say it's just standard and not negotiable, tell them they're right, it ISN'T negotiable, and that you need their standard +X weeks. Negotiate a severence package up front. Since your relatively new at this honky, start at 2 weeks, +1/year served.
They already want you, they need you, now it's time to get greedy and milk everything that you can out of them. There will never be a point in time that you will have more bargaining power than RIGHT NOW.
Joe's Stream.
Are you including class documentation in "comments", or do you mean actual comments? I always document a (library) class. My comments, on the other hand are more of the snappy/sarcastic variety, usually when I am displeased and would like somebody else to fix it ;o)
I was obviously going to ask for $140k. My current salary is roughly $60K with everything included (vacations). I guess you could consider me programmer 2 since I don't really deal with high end problems and don't get nitty gritty like ecco does.
Am I shooting low there? (Even I need advice too)
Obviously Cost of living comparisons, but glassdoor says 120k so, didn't know how high I should shoot here.
Decent Valet's at plush Upper East Side Condo's make $120k/yr
Joe's Stream.
If by class documentation you mean the auto-generated stuff at the top that tells me who wrote the class (Mercurial tells me the same thing), what the class is named (not hard to figure out) then yes I am counting that.
depends on the formality of the HR banding structure. Honestly, I usually negotiate a title during exit interview. Bigger companies like to stick to the big book of salary grades, and you may be able to find out possible career paths. other companies, lord knows, hope that you share genetics with the owners.
Joe's Stream.
Oi, are you interviewing at Google NYC for real?
If I remember some stuff you wrote about what you do correctly, it sounds like you tend to do a lot of work by yourself without supervision?
That sounds more like a Software Engineer 3 to me.
Basically:
Programmer 1 is entry level, <1 year exp.
Programmer 2 handles a bit more than bug fixing, tends to take on implementing new stuff at the direction of a lead programmer, between 1-4 years of exp
Programmer 3 tends to be the real meat and potatoes coder. Usually in charge of tying shit together, making it work, etc. Often times a team lead or low level management.
Programmer 4 tends to be the consultant guy, meets with customers, plans and designs, organizes the teams, leads the project, makes schedules, handles issues with implementation (this guy hardly codes anymore)
After this you are pretty much "Guru" and get paid to show up. You're required to grow a beard. You're the programmer equivalent of the gray beard.
That's probably where I'd put myself. Yeah. I'm developing an CCHIT certified EHR from scratch (we're shooting for level 4-5 certification (max is 5)).
Longest year of my life, though. Stressful.
@Zeeny , yeah I'm wrapping up my resume and submitting it in the next week. I don't expect much but I would enjoy the challenge immensely. And the new scenery. And the new found freedom that kind of money would get me.
I grew a beard and the jerks still won't change my title.
It's difficult comparing numbers (and to a lesser extent titles) between companies.
For example, at my current company I'm a SWE5 (Senior Software Engineer). Except our scale goes the other way, so a SWE1 would be the CTO!
In my experience, the existence of the list of requirements is pretty standard. Though at any job I've been at, supervising two other Engineers means you're a Senior Engineer.
SE's do a lot more than programmers. We're like the superman programmers. All this workflow and architecture shit.
My brother is being a debbie downer (super pessemist, end of world guy, has a bunker full of guns) saying google won't even touch me because I don't have a 4 year degree. Despite doing this for a decade.
I guess that is the disconnect I have. I don't have a 4 year degree, but I have 6 years experience and am supervising 2 people.
I got hired on as "Computer Programmer I", that was what was on my paperwork. So I put it in my company email sigs, so random customers might have some idea what I do and do not know about. My boss took me aside later and basically said "Really, you're just a Computer Programmer, the number is silly."
This place is very small.
Google's hiring policies do have a really stupid bias towards degrees, but I doubt it's as extreme as your brother is suggesting.
If you can't get them to give you the Senior Software Engineer title with that much experience and those job duties, it may be time for you to find somewhere else that will.
Have you sat down with your manager and gone over the requirements that you're lacking and requested you get the opportunity to make up those gaps?
I hope not. Apparently Manhattan is much more lax about it than the west coast offices, from what I hear. But that's rumor.
He should be getting a raise and title change just for managing two people, tbh.
I have, the problem is that the "Job Title" requires a degree. They are trying to change it all, but change is slow here.
You'll get no disagreement from me on that!
I'm just covering the case where he doesn't want to change jobs and his HR department is stubborn. Or he has a legitimate skill gap that could be problematic if not addressed.
google still heavily favors near 4.0's from S-Tier schools, and Advanced Degrees. The exception being that you've got a Kessel run story that is truly noteworthy "I invented C++" noteworthy.
Joe's Stream.
I hear this same sort of thing, but I hear if you can make an impression you have as good a chance as anyone.
I'd imagine the difficulty is getting past the pre-screening process.