I might just be biased since Bethany was one of my favorite party members in the game. Certainly favorite mage...but that isn't saying much when compared to the other options.
It's not so much that she's a great character, she's just not as shit as Merrill. Who is really, really shit.
Even Anders is better.
I wouldn't go that far.
Merrill is an idiot, but Anders is an idiot and horrible.
Merrill wins by default.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I disagree that Awakening is necessary to see Anders' story arc. You get to see it within DA2 itself, for the most part. The only change from Awakening to DA2 is actually kind of unrelated to the main storyline of DA2.
Anders accepted Justice into his body to save his friends' life, not as a result of the mage/templar conflict. So it's not really necessary to see that to understand how opressed mages are.
Although understanding that even a "good" spirit can become a demon by attaching itself to the material world is one of the lessons of the game, but they discuss it in the game itself so even then it's not necessary.
I don't mean Anders arc, I mean Anders character.
He's completely different in the two games. Different appearance, voice, manurisms, personality, everything.
He shouldn't even be called Anders imo.
The tragedy comes not from his arc, but knowing that the person Anders was in Awakening, is gone. At no point in DA2 is Anders the cute cuddlebug. He's an asshole from the very beginning.
If you didn't play Awakening and only know Anders from his character in DA2, would you ever have thought of him as someone like Alistair?
Edit: Same rule applies to Justice.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
How many people let Anders live
Figured that would be easier to count then how many killed the sonovabitch
Oh I killed the fuck out of him. As a matter of fact I wish I could've killed him harder than I did. The reason is that he totally betrayed my trust and stabbed me in the back, after everything I had done to peacefully resolve this and make life better for mages throughout the game. And then he tricked me into delivering the reagent for the explosion (Yes, that's right, that quest in Act 3 is you setting up his bomb). I still sided with the Mages for reasons not the least of which were that Bethany was in the Circle.
Although I just thought about something that we haven't covered. Remember that the treatment of mages is so bad it enrages Justice and turns him into a spirit of Vengeance. It's important that they don't call him a demon, but a spirit. Also, I need to stress that at the end of the Circle Tower in DA: O despite the crisis that happened there the Mages and Templars are able to work together to rebuild. Is there bad blood afterwards? Sure, all conflict breeds it. But at least they are making an attempt, unlike miss Meredith OH THIS MAGE IS BAD OBVIOUSLY WE ARE BEING TOO NICE.
I'm wondering how much the storyline alters itself based on decisions you've made throughout the game. I don't even remember the whole Orsino helping the guy who killed Hawke's Mom, when was that revealed precisely? Maybe I should play again and be less sympathetic to mages this time to see how it skews.
Again, the entire point of my argument is that with the way the Templars in Kirkwall treat mages the only thing you can expect is rebellion. There is no justice to it. Not even the weak premise of the Circle and Templars existing to protect the world and mages themselves from their powers. And in almost all cases where it all got fucked up it usually was extremists on either side refusing to back down and making the situation worse, or the mistrust of mages getting the better of them. I'd say the most sympathetic situation you find yourself in is when you bust up the ring of dudes kidnapping apostates and you see that girl backed into a corner and she turns into an abomination. It would've been nice to see more.
Again, TL;DR: I'm even able to get angry about the mistreatment of imaginary minorities.
Search the blood mages chambers well enough and you will find a not bearing Orsinos initial. At first its not enough to draw any real conclusion but at the end when he transforms he says that the knowledge of the ritual came from that bloodmage (gives his name/if you are against Orsino he reavels that he knew that the bloodmage killed your mother)
Huh, I'll have to take a closer look next time. Does he give the reason for hiding him, besides the obvious worries of Templar tomfoolery?
Question on what Orsino knew:
Did he know the bloodmage was hacking people up then hid him, or was hiding him and then found out? Way different dynamics to the situation depending. Though since all mages not in your party default response to anything is ABOMINATION TIME! I guess it doesn't really matter...
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
There are no sympathetic mages presented to us in the story.
Sure, I'm willing to bet that maybe there are some cool mages in Kirkwall, but where are they? We never see them. Except for Bethany and she's optional, she can be dead or a Grey Warden.
Plus, look at Fereldan's Circle, what happened when a single evil archmage became abomination? He tortured the lesser mages until they accepted a demon inside themselves. We have no reason to believe that this didn't happen in Kirkwall, because every damn mage we meet is either an abomination, a blood mage, or an asshole murderer. For all we know, Orsino literally corrupted every single mage in the Kirkwall Circle.
We really needed a single mage character who wasn't a complete bag of dicks.
On the other side, we actually do meet some Templars who are decent people, trying to make the best of a bad situation. Also, Meredith doesn't go all genocidal because she's an asshole, she goes crazy because of a mind-corrupting magic idol. So she gets an excuse for her dickbag actions.
It's also why I hate the Red Idol, but that's a seperate arguement.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
+1
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
A normal person will do something horrible to stay alive. We see it throughout history.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
A normal person will do something horrible to stay alive. We see it throughout history.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
There's an uncomfortable analogy for these mages (not all mages, but a lot of the ones who turn to blood magic), but I think I'm going to regret bringing it up.
Suicide bombers.
Trying to leave the religious aspect out of it (if we could do that, it'd be peachy), no-one becomes a suicide bomber in the name of their own survival or freedom. Sometimes, it's the only way they can fight back.
They know they're going to die, but they want to take as many people with them as possible. Whether that's out of revenge, or in the hope of keeping them from killing others, there's an element of desperation not just for themselves, but for their kind.
So it's more like: I'm going to die, and so are a lot more people like me so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it, so some of the people like me won't die.
How many people let Anders live
Figured that would be easier to count then how many killed the sonovabitch
Oh I killed the fuck out of him. As a matter of fact I wish I could've killed him harder than I did. The reason is that he totally betrayed my trust and stabbed me in the back, after everything I had done to peacefully resolve this and make life better for mages throughout the game. And then he tricked me into delivering the reagent for the explosion (Yes, that's right, that quest in Act 3 is you setting up his bomb). I still sided with the Mages for reasons not the least of which were that Bethany was in the Circle.
Although I just thought about something that we haven't covered. Remember that the treatment of mages is so bad it enrages Justice and turns him into a spirit of Vengeance. It's important that they don't call him a demon, but a spirit. Also, I need to stress that at the end of the Circle Tower in DA: O despite the crisis that happened there the Mages and Templars are able to work together to rebuild. Is there bad blood afterwards? Sure, all conflict breeds it. But at least they are making an attempt, unlike miss Meredith OH THIS MAGE IS BAD OBVIOUSLY WE ARE BEING TOO NICE.
I'm wondering how much the storyline alters itself based on decisions you've made throughout the game. I don't even remember the whole Orsino helping the guy who killed Hawke's Mom, when was that revealed precisely? Maybe I should play again and be less sympathetic to mages this time to see how it skews.
Again, the entire point of my argument is that with the way the Templars in Kirkwall treat mages the only thing you can expect is rebellion. There is no justice to it. Not even the weak premise of the Circle and Templars existing to protect the world and mages themselves from their powers. And in almost all cases where it all got fucked up it usually was extremists on either side refusing to back down and making the situation worse, or the mistrust of mages getting the better of them. I'd say the most sympathetic situation you find yourself in is when you bust up the ring of dudes kidnapping apostates and you see that girl backed into a corner and she turns into an abomination. It would've been nice to see more.
Again, TL;DR: I'm even able to get angry about the mistreatment of imaginary minorities.
Search the blood mages chambers well enough and you will find a not bearing Orsinos initial. At first its not enough to draw any real conclusion but at the end when he transforms he says that the knowledge of the ritual came from that bloodmage (gives his name/if you are against Orsino he reavels that he knew that the bloodmage killed your mother)
Huh, I'll have to take a closer look next time. Does he give the reason for hiding him, besides the obvious worries of Templar tomfoolery?
Question on what Orsino knew:
Did he know the bloodmage was hacking people up then hid him, or was hiding him and then found out? Way different dynamics to the situation depending. Though since all mages not in your party default response to anything is ABOMINATION TIME! I guess it doesn't really matter...
He knew exactly what the dude was doing, and was funneling him money and books on blood magic to further his experiments.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
A normal person will do something horrible to stay alive. We see it throughout history.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
Except we all know of one case where someone joined with a spirit, got to live, and didn't become an abomination in the normal sense.
Wynne
So while the chance to survive is slim, it still exists and will seem like a better choice to someone who's only other option is death.
I disagree that Awakening is necessary to see Anders' story arc. You get to see it within DA2 itself, for the most part. The only change from Awakening to DA2 is actually kind of unrelated to the main storyline of DA2.
Anders accepted Justice into his body to save his friends' life, not as a result of the mage/templar conflict. So it's not really necessary to see that to understand how opressed mages are.
Although understanding that even a "good" spirit can become a demon by attaching itself to the material world is one of the lessons of the game, but they discuss it in the game itself so even then it's not necessary.
I have to say for Anders story I think Awakening is very important
Aside form showing how badly the union corrupted both Anders and Justice, It's important to see just how Justice became so attached to the material plane. If you do all of his gift quests and complete his personal quests you start to see how he goes from a spirit concerned only with justice to caring more for the people and things of the material world. It makes their situation in DA2 that much more tragic
Those are excellent reasons for aiding the Templar and Meredith's actions prior to act 3 do show her as a hardass but one trying to be fair to all parties involved. However upon Anders proving himself king of the fuckups her immediate response is to kill every mage in the city.
It's that moment when no matter how many bloodmages I run across I cant side with the templars when I'm like hey the one who did it is right here. No really he's right here. He even admitted to it. Hell I'll be the one to excute him for it but the others are innocent. And shee goes to slaughter mages anyway at which point I have to start taking down templars
If you have Sebastian he literally points at Anders and says why are you wasting time blaming the Circle when the guy who did this is right here
One of two reasons I like Sebastian. The other one is the conversation Sebastian/Snarky Femhawke (romanced)/Carver have in Legacy (though that is more because FemHawke's line delivery is perfect than anything Sebastian does):
Sebastian: Is something troubling you, brother?
Carver: I'm not your brother.
Sebastian: I'm not familiar with Ferelden tradition but I married your sister. I believe that makes us brothers.
Carver: A "chaste marriage." Some invention of yours, no doubt.
Hawke: Aww. Would you feel better if I slept with him? Because I totally would. Right here.
Carver: Sister, please!
Sebastian: Yes, love... rein it in.
Search the blood mages chambers well enough and you will find a not bearing Orsinos initial. At first its not enough to draw any real conclusion but at the end when he transforms he says that the knowledge of the ritual came from that bloodmage (gives his name/if you are against Orsino he reavels that he knew that the bloodmage killed your mother)
The pro-Mage ending would have been a lot better if, instead of Orsino going crazy-go-nuts, he had somehow let slip that he was buddies with Quentin in Hawke's hearing and Hawke and Bethany then decided to murder him for it.
Spoilers for ending
IIRC he says exactly that and that was the reason Circle-Bethany go "Wait what?" and joined up with me again. Long time ago though.
Dizzy D on
Steam/Origin: davydizzy
0
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
A normal person will do something horrible to stay alive. We see it throughout history.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
There's an uncomfortable analogy for these mages (not all mages, but a lot of the ones who turn to blood magic), but I think I'm going to regret bringing it up.
Suicide bombers.
Trying to leave the religious aspect out of it (if we could do that, it'd be peachy), no-one becomes a suicide bomber in the name of their own survival or freedom. Sometimes, it's the only way they can fight back.
They know they're going to die, but they want to take as many people with them as possible. Whether that's out of revenge, or in the hope of keeping them from killing others, there's an element of desperation not just for themselves, but for their kind.
So it's more like: I'm going to die, and so are a lot more people like me so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it, so some of the people like me won't die.
This is actually what I'm getting at. It's an act of desperation. I mean when that one girl turns into an abomination she is being cornered by several armed and armored men. Can you blame her for turning to such power in the belief that it may have protected her?
Is it possible that demons are preying on this fear? Meredith gets a pass for having a lyrium idol that drives her mad, but lyrium is just a direct connection to the Fade. Could it have been a Pride demon working on her slowly over the years? Mages are always connected to the Fade, and always have demons hounding them. So one day they find out that maybe the Templars are turning people who aren't even breaking the Circle's laws into Tranquil. Maybe that night the demon starts to prey on their paranoia, telling them that if they're being lied to about this what else are they being lied to about. Maybe they decide its worth trying out because at the very least they might kill a few Templars, and less Templars means less Templar authority.
Someone brought up the kids in the cave. I think they forget that shortly after you show up, another Templar party intent on going in and just killing all of them shows up, whom you have to either kill or talk down IIRC. And as for the kids inside, yes their leader is a blood mage and his girlfriend ain't too nice, but the rest of them were kids trying to run from the oppressive rules of the Circle. If you take the right options, you can take out the leader and get the kids out of there safely. Also, you mentioned Templars who seemed cool, yet everyone seems to forget that Anders is actually running a clinic that offers free aid to people in Darktown. He's actually pulling a Medicens sans Frontier down there in his little base. Yet he's batshit and evil? He's a freedom fighter railing against the system, and hell man it gets worse the whole time he's there. He even loses a loved one to Tranquility. If someone were to take your lover from you and turn them into an emotionless puppet, I wonder how you would respond.
TL;DR There's some things you can expect of the oppressed.
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
Okay, so a wide variety of things on companions and end game. Wyborn, avoid this.
On Merrill: I don't think she's an idiot. She is naive, proud, desperate, and firmly believes in what she is doing. From her comments about spirits, demons, and possession, its pretty clear that she understands exactly how dangerous working with the demon is. However, she believes that it is worth the risk and that if her sacrifice will bring the knowledge of her people back, than she is willing to do so. She's also smart enough to bring her demon slaughtering friends along just in case everything goes bad so that she can be put down.
On Anders: By Act 3 (hell, by Act 2) he's not Anders anymore. He's an abomination wearing Anders' skin. Anders corrupted Justice into Vengeance, and Vengeance then corrupted Anders. There was no hesitation for me when it came to slitting his throat.
On Templars vs Mages: Here is my list of people, in order, for who has most to least blame:
1) Anders for blowing up the Chantry. Until that point, there was still a chance to keep a lid on things. That's the real reason he had to die. My only regret is that the game wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do: Kill Anders and then blame the destruction of the Chantry on the Qunari. The Qunari have explosives and as such would have been able to do the same thing Anders did. They'd have been the perfect scape goat and we could have directed the Exalted March against them rather than against Mages.
2) Orsino for being an evil asshole who decided the best thing to do was to aid psychotic bloodmages and help them cover up their activities. Seriously, Orsino is one messed up guy who just kept making things worse by protecting people he should have been turning over to the Templars.
3) Merideth, for getting so desperate and worried about the mages, that she purchased the Lyrium Idol from Bartrand and turned it into a sword. That thing just fucks people up, and the fact that she held on to her mind for as long as she did is testament to her willpower. But, in the end, crazy screwed up artifacts always win.
4) General citizens of Kirkwall. The reason that Merideth calls on the Right of Annulment at the end of the game, which she tells you if you question her, is that when the citizens of Kirkwall find out a mage took out the Chantry that they will riot and attack. Merideth was looking at a war no matter what. It was either going to be Citizens of Kirkwall vs Mages or Templars vs Mages. As her duty is to protect the general populace from mages, she made the only choice she felt she could. A person's sense of duty kind of sucks like that.
5) The Chantry in general for sucking. Yes, I understand that Mages need someone watching over them and that they need to be trained so they don't become abominations, but you don't have to be so hardline about it. You already have phylacteries so they can be tracked and you have the Circles where they can be trained. When a Mage's training is complete, just register the mages, put Templars in every major city, and require Mages to check in with the local Templar branch when they move to a new town.
I don't really get why people say that about the mages.
You have people driven to the edge of desperation, pushed up against the wall, and what do they do? They reach out for the only power available to them. Then you accuse them of being unsympathetic because they're defending themselves the only way they know how.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
A normal person will do something horrible to stay alive. We see it throughout history.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
There's an uncomfortable analogy for these mages (not all mages, but a lot of the ones who turn to blood magic), but I think I'm going to regret bringing it up.
Suicide bombers.
Trying to leave the religious aspect out of it (if we could do that, it'd be peachy), no-one becomes a suicide bomber in the name of their own survival or freedom. Sometimes, it's the only way they can fight back.
They know they're going to die, but they want to take as many people with them as possible. Whether that's out of revenge, or in the hope of keeping them from killing others, there's an element of desperation not just for themselves, but for their kind.
So it's more like: I'm going to die, and so are a lot more people like me so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it, so some of the people like me won't die.
Yeah, I did think of that, but I didn't feel the need to put it in here.
"But the spirit Wynne got was a good spirit!" because Anders got a "good" spirit, too, and became, essentially, an abomination anyway.
Merril says it best when she points out that all Spirits are dangerous to bring into this world.
I thought of that too, still doesn't apply.
There are two instances in Dragon Age where we meet a benevolent spirit. Wynne and Justice. I don't mean Vengance inside of Anders, I mean the Justice in DA:A.
They have one thing in common, the host was dead both times. Justice was obviously in a corpse. Wynne, while not obvious, died before she the spirit of Hope entered her.
Anders was alive when he let himself become the host for Justice. The consequences were the exact same thing for every other being that allows a Fade spirit into their body, he became an abomination.
Wynne was still "dead", despite how she acted alive. She even admits as much in DA:O. Her life was gone, but the Hope spirit was using it's energy to sustain her.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Damn you guys. I disliked chapter 3 so much I was sure I would never play the game again, yet you are managing to pull me back in. I might just do a Mage playthrough, sacrificing Bethany is a very high price but it will let me see carver and completely ignore Anders and Merril. I do like Merril, but I got my fill of her in my first playthrough.
So, bottom line; is DA2 necessary to be able to have any clue what will be going on in DA3?
Probably not, to be honest. Dragon Age 2 does set up a bunch of conflicts in need of resolving, but they're pretty much the same conflicts that were already set up/foreshadowed in Origins.
But DA2 is definitely a pretty good game, especially since you can probably pick it up used for about $5. I'd definitely recommend giving a go if you never have.
Damn you guys. I disliked chapter 3 so much I was sure I would never play the game again, yet you are managing to pull me back in. I might just do a Mage playthrough, sacrificing Bethany is a very high price but it will let me see carver and completely ignore Anders and Merril. I do like Merril, but I got my fill of her in my first playthrough.
Imagine a block of wood...that's jealous of you...that's carver.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Actually. While I didn't play with him myself(watched my brother play). I found Carver and Hawke's sibling rivalry to be pretty funny.
So, bottom line; is DA2 necessary to be able to have any clue what will be going on in DA3?
Not really, no new conflicts are brought up. Even if you want a save to import I'd bet there's a site to download them like there is for mass effect saves.
I loved DA2 so much, just for the characters and their interactions. The map re-use infuriated me, but man, things like The Long Road just made the game so damn good. That, and the combat was way more enjoyable on consoles than DA1.
Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
How many people let Anders live
Figured that would be easier to count then how many killed the sonovabitch
*raises hand* I did, with no regrets.
I think for me it has to do with the fact that I was completely unsurprised by the explosion, so I never got that feeling of 'You betrayed me!' I knew as soon as he asked for the potion ingrediants that he was making a bomb, because there's not much else you can do with sulfur and salt peter. I knew as soon as he had me distract the preacher lady that it was the Chantry that was blowing up. So I knew the building was going to explode, and had time to process that long before it happened.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the Mages actually do need to rise up and fight for their freedom. They are an oppressed minority forced into camps 'for the greater good.' The Chantry may have provided a mediator between Orsino and Meredith, but I'm positive that the result of that would not have been freedom from the Circle. At best it would be slightly less threat of death in the camps, no lack of camps. In blowing it up Anders forced the simmering injustice to a head, and actually created a situation in which freedom for the mages can be obtained.
Is Anders an ass? Oh hell yes. Is he an abomination? Without a doubt. But he's an ass and an abomination that my Hawke agreed with. And when it seems everyone else was employing the murder-knife, my Hawke was asking "Why didn't you tell me? I WOULD HAVE HELPED."
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited March 2013
Honestly, the fact that DA2 turned out as good as it did with only a 8 or so month development cycle actually gets me even more pumped for DA3.
How many people let Anders live
Figured that would be easier to count then how many killed the sonovabitch
*raises hand* I did, with no regrets.
I think for me it has to do with the fact that I was completely unsurprised by the explosion, so I never got that feeling of 'You betrayed me!' I knew as soon as he asked for the potion ingrediants that he was making a bomb, because there's not much else you can do with sulfur and salt peter. I knew as soon as he had me distract the preacher lady that it was the Chantry that was blowing up. So I knew the building was going to explode, and had time to process that long before it happened.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the Mages actually do need to rise up and fight for their freedom. They are an oppressed minority forced into camps 'for the greater good.' The Chantry may have provided a mediator between Orsino and Meredith, but I'm positive that the result of that would not have been freedom from the Circle. At best it would be slightly less threat of death in the camps, no lack of camps. In blowing it up Anders forced the simmering injustice to a head, and actually created a situation in which freedom for the mages can be obtained.
Is Anders an ass? Oh hell yes. Is he an abomination? Without a doubt. But he's an ass and an abomination that my Hawke agreed with. And when it seems everyone else was employing the murder-knife, my Hawke was asking "Why didn't you tell me? I WOULD HAVE HELPED."
I'll be honest with you,
Mages cannot be free of control in the Dragon Age universe. It may work in other stories, but it has been shown in the Dragon Age universe that when large numbers of mages are free to do whatever they want, they conquer nations, enslave the masses, do horrible experiments on innocent people, and try to throw down God and take over all of reality.
Likewise, it has been shown that not only are Mages vulnerable to demonic possession, but if a single mage gets possessed, he can wipe entire cities off of the map. It would have happened twice in DA: Origins (both the Circle and Redcliff) if the Warden hadn't stepped in and dealt with the issue.
Mages in DA don't have their lives restricted because they have a different skin color or they have a strange accent. Their lives are restricted because they are all potentially walking weapons of mass destruction.
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+3
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Yep.
I'm pro-mage and even I think the Circle isn't a bad idea.
Which is funny...since I was on Cap's side during Civil War.
How many people let Anders live
Figured that would be easier to count then how many killed the sonovabitch
*raises hand* I did, with no regrets.
I think for me it has to do with the fact that I was completely unsurprised by the explosion, so I never got that feeling of 'You betrayed me!' I knew as soon as he asked for the potion ingrediants that he was making a bomb, because there's not much else you can do with sulfur and salt peter. I knew as soon as he had me distract the preacher lady that it was the Chantry that was blowing up. So I knew the building was going to explode, and had time to process that long before it happened.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the Mages actually do need to rise up and fight for their freedom. They are an oppressed minority forced into camps 'for the greater good.' The Chantry may have provided a mediator between Orsino and Meredith, but I'm positive that the result of that would not have been freedom from the Circle. At best it would be slightly less threat of death in the camps, no lack of camps. In blowing it up Anders forced the simmering injustice to a head, and actually created a situation in which freedom for the mages can be obtained.
Is Anders an ass? Oh hell yes. Is he an abomination? Without a doubt. But he's an ass and an abomination that my Hawke agreed with. And when it seems everyone else was employing the murder-knife, my Hawke was asking "Why didn't you tell me? I WOULD HAVE HELPED."
I'll be honest with you,
Mages cannot be free of control in the Dragon Age universe. It may work in other stories, but it has been shown in the Dragon Age universe that when large numbers of mages are free to do whatever they want, they conquer nations, enslave the masses, do horrible experiments on innocent people, and try to throw down God and take over all of reality.
Likewise, it has been shown that not only are Mages vulnerable to demonic possession, but if a single mage gets possessed, he can wipe entire cities off of the map. It would have happened twice in DA: Origins (both the Circle and Redcliff) if the Warden hadn't stepped in and dealt with the issue.
Mages in DA don't have their lives restricted because they have a different skin color or they have a strange accent. Their lives are restricted because they are all potentially walking weapons of mass destruction.
For me it is a really complex issue. I find suicide bomber parallel earlier interesting, because I find myself opposed to both for similar reasons; they are both just as if not more likely to target innocent civilians as their real enemies.
No amount of oppression excuses a bloodmage killing a district full of civilians. I would have respected Anders bombing the Templars, they were at least his enemies. The fact that he thought his bomb was the only way to force the mages into an all out war screams of madness and desperation. He should have tried to use it on Merideth, and if he did not believe he could succeed in taking her down he should have gathered strength and tried harder.
His weakness and impatience is not an excuse to take the easy way out and start murdering civilians. Especially with the impending threat of an exalted march! He is not worthy of becoming a martyr, let alone a rebel leader.
They're even worse than walking weapons of mass destruction. They are walking WMD's that can go off an any time, any place, for no reason, then corrupt other mages into a chain reaction, like the Feraldan Circle almost became.
As horrible as it is, mages need to be controlled.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
They're even worse than walking weapons of mass destruction. They are walking WMD's that can go off an any time, any place, for no reason, then corrupt other mages into a chain reaction, like the Feraldan Circle almost became.
Better try to oppress those dudes and treat them as horribly as you can. What's the worst that could happen?
Man I even agree that mages are potentially very dangerous and definitely need some form of control.
But locking them all up in a big tower for pretty much the rest of their lives doesn't work. Letting the guardians of those towers be full of abusive dicks who hate mages also doesn't work.
Lighter control. More freedoms, much dialogue, mutual understanding, cooperation rather than oppression. That could work, without giving way to another Tevinter.
The Templar's recruitment criteria are apparently completely fucked, and with that so is the dynamic between Mages and Templars. It's a terrible system.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Just that, like with a lot of systems, corruption made it a lot worse than it had to be.
Tevinter was full of people enslaving, blood sacrificing, dragon worshipping mages. Then there was this prophet chick, and a whole revolution, and the Chantry was introduced to Tevinter, with Templars and Circles and everything. Now Tevinter is a place full of people enslaving, blood sacrificing, Maker worshipping Mages.
Tevinter isn't fucked because its ruled by mages. Tevinter is fucked because its full of people from Tevinter. There are plenty of instances of non-Tevinter mages that bust free of the Circle and just... hide. Start a nice family. Become hermits. Chill with the Dalish and travel around hurting no one. Live in a swamp. Do not blame every mage born because Tevinter is a morally corrupt society and always has been.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
+2
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
The problem with that is that it isn't an issue of every mage going berserk.
I'm sure that if set free 95% of mages would probably act responsibility.
But with the level of destruction that 5% can cause, it just isn't a chance you can take.
The problem with that is that it isn't an issue of every mage going berserk.
I'm sure that if set free 95% of mages would probably act responsibility.
But with the level of destruction that 5% can cause, it just isn't a chance you can take.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Posts
I wouldn't go that far.
Merrill is an idiot, but Anders is an idiot and horrible.
Merrill wins by default.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I don't mean Anders arc, I mean Anders character.
He's completely different in the two games. Different appearance, voice, manurisms, personality, everything.
He shouldn't even be called Anders imo.
If you didn't play Awakening and only know Anders from his character in DA2, would you ever have thought of him as someone like Alistair?
Edit: Same rule applies to Justice.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Question on what Orsino knew:
Sure, I'm willing to bet that maybe there are some cool mages in Kirkwall, but where are they? We never see them. Except for Bethany and she's optional, she can be dead or a Grey Warden.
Plus, look at Fereldan's Circle, what happened when a single evil archmage became abomination? He tortured the lesser mages until they accepted a demon inside themselves. We have no reason to believe that this didn't happen in Kirkwall, because every damn mage we meet is either an abomination, a blood mage, or an asshole murderer. For all we know, Orsino literally corrupted every single mage in the Kirkwall Circle.
We really needed a single mage character who wasn't a complete bag of dicks.
On the other side, we actually do meet some Templars who are decent people, trying to make the best of a bad situation. Also, Meredith doesn't go all genocidal because she's an asshole, she goes crazy because of a mind-corrupting magic idol. So she gets an excuse for her dickbag actions.
It's also why I hate the Red Idol, but that's a seperate arguement.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Think about it in normal human terms. Let's say you have some minority group that for centuries the majority has been down on as violent and criminals. The reaction of the majority is to oppress those minorities, so that basically their only option is violence and crime. Then the majority points to that group and says "See? We're not racists, those people are just as fucked up as we said they were!" Yet only progressives will say, "Look, if you beat on someone every day for years, of course they're going to eventually rise up and strike you back. That doesn't mean they're naturally violent! It means they're just as human as you are, and you'd do the same in their position."
I think I said this in the other thread, but it's like the Templars in Kirkwall are giving mages one of two choices die or try out some blood magic so maybe you don't die. And then everyone is all shocked and appalled that the mages don't lie down and say "well gee, I guess I'd better die!"
It's not the same thing though.
Sometimes they kill, sometimes they'll eat other people. It's all done in the name of survival or freedom.
Mages don't get this excuse. When they become abomonations, the idea of freedom or survival is gone. When you become an abomination, you are either a slave to the demon or it consumes you. There is no middle ground.
So the reason that mages are becoming abominations fails the test of desperate actions. You can't give them the excuse of ignorance either. Circle mages know damn well what happenes to their minds if they accept a demon into themselves.
It's like this: I'm going to die, so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
There's an uncomfortable analogy for these mages (not all mages, but a lot of the ones who turn to blood magic), but I think I'm going to regret bringing it up.
Trying to leave the religious aspect out of it (if we could do that, it'd be peachy), no-one becomes a suicide bomber in the name of their own survival or freedom. Sometimes, it's the only way they can fight back.
They know they're going to die, but they want to take as many people with them as possible. Whether that's out of revenge, or in the hope of keeping them from killing others, there's an element of desperation not just for themselves, but for their kind.
So it's more like: I'm going to die, and so are a lot more people like me so I will use a power that will kill me, in order to kill all of them first, even though I'll be dead when I do it, so some of the people like me won't die.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Except we all know of one case where someone joined with a spirit, got to live, and didn't become an abomination in the normal sense.
So while the chance to survive is slim, it still exists and will seem like a better choice to someone who's only other option is death.
Merril says it best when she points out that all Spirits are dangerous to bring into this world.
I have to say for Anders story I think Awakening is very important
One of two reasons I like Sebastian. The other one is the conversation Sebastian/Snarky Femhawke (romanced)/Carver have in Legacy (though that is more because FemHawke's line delivery is perfect than anything Sebastian does):
Carver: I'm not your brother.
Sebastian: I'm not familiar with Ferelden tradition but I married your sister. I believe that makes us brothers.
Carver: A "chaste marriage." Some invention of yours, no doubt.
Hawke: Aww. Would you feel better if I slept with him? Because I totally would. Right here.
Carver: Sister, please!
Sebastian: Yes, love... rein it in.
Spoilers for ending
Is it possible that demons are preying on this fear? Meredith gets a pass for having a lyrium idol that drives her mad, but lyrium is just a direct connection to the Fade. Could it have been a Pride demon working on her slowly over the years? Mages are always connected to the Fade, and always have demons hounding them. So one day they find out that maybe the Templars are turning people who aren't even breaking the Circle's laws into Tranquil. Maybe that night the demon starts to prey on their paranoia, telling them that if they're being lied to about this what else are they being lied to about. Maybe they decide its worth trying out because at the very least they might kill a few Templars, and less Templars means less Templar authority.
Someone brought up the kids in the cave. I think they forget that shortly after you show up, another Templar party intent on going in and just killing all of them shows up, whom you have to either kill or talk down IIRC. And as for the kids inside, yes their leader is a blood mage and his girlfriend ain't too nice, but the rest of them were kids trying to run from the oppressive rules of the Circle. If you take the right options, you can take out the leader and get the kids out of there safely. Also, you mentioned Templars who seemed cool, yet everyone seems to forget that Anders is actually running a clinic that offers free aid to people in Darktown. He's actually pulling a Medicens sans Frontier down there in his little base. Yet he's batshit and evil? He's a freedom fighter railing against the system, and hell man it gets worse the whole time he's there. He even loses a loved one to Tranquility. If someone were to take your lover from you and turn them into an emotionless puppet, I wonder how you would respond.
TL;DR There's some things you can expect of the oppressed.
On Anders: By Act 3 (hell, by Act 2) he's not Anders anymore. He's an abomination wearing Anders' skin. Anders corrupted Justice into Vengeance, and Vengeance then corrupted Anders. There was no hesitation for me when it came to slitting his throat.
On Templars vs Mages: Here is my list of people, in order, for who has most to least blame:
1) Anders for blowing up the Chantry. Until that point, there was still a chance to keep a lid on things. That's the real reason he had to die. My only regret is that the game wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do: Kill Anders and then blame the destruction of the Chantry on the Qunari. The Qunari have explosives and as such would have been able to do the same thing Anders did. They'd have been the perfect scape goat and we could have directed the Exalted March against them rather than against Mages.
2) Orsino for being an evil asshole who decided the best thing to do was to aid psychotic bloodmages and help them cover up their activities. Seriously, Orsino is one messed up guy who just kept making things worse by protecting people he should have been turning over to the Templars.
3) Merideth, for getting so desperate and worried about the mages, that she purchased the Lyrium Idol from Bartrand and turned it into a sword. That thing just fucks people up, and the fact that she held on to her mind for as long as she did is testament to her willpower. But, in the end, crazy screwed up artifacts always win.
4) General citizens of Kirkwall. The reason that Merideth calls on the Right of Annulment at the end of the game, which she tells you if you question her, is that when the citizens of Kirkwall find out a mage took out the Chantry that they will riot and attack. Merideth was looking at a war no matter what. It was either going to be Citizens of Kirkwall vs Mages or Templars vs Mages. As her duty is to protect the general populace from mages, she made the only choice she felt she could. A person's sense of duty kind of sucks like that.
5) The Chantry in general for sucking. Yes, I understand that Mages need someone watching over them and that they need to be trained so they don't become abominations, but you don't have to be so hardline about it. You already have phylacteries so they can be tracked and you have the Circles where they can be trained. When a Mage's training is complete, just register the mages, put Templars in every major city, and require Mages to check in with the local Templar branch when they move to a new town.
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
Yeah, I did think of that, but I didn't feel the need to put it in here.
_________________________________________________________________________________
I thought of that too, still doesn't apply.
They have one thing in common, the host was dead both times. Justice was obviously in a corpse. Wynne, while not obvious, died before she the spirit of Hope entered her.
Anders was alive when he let himself become the host for Justice. The consequences were the exact same thing for every other being that allows a Fade spirit into their body, he became an abomination.
Wynne was still "dead", despite how she acted alive. She even admits as much in DA:O. Her life was gone, but the Hope spirit was using it's energy to sustain her.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
Yes, I can feel the anticipation growing within you.
Probably not, to be honest. Dragon Age 2 does set up a bunch of conflicts in need of resolving, but they're pretty much the same conflicts that were already set up/foreshadowed in Origins.
Imagine a block of wood...that's jealous of you...that's carver.
Not really, no new conflicts are brought up. Even if you want a save to import I'd bet there's a site to download them like there is for mass effect saves.
*raises hand* I did, with no regrets.
Also, I'm of the opinion that the Mages actually do need to rise up and fight for their freedom. They are an oppressed minority forced into camps 'for the greater good.' The Chantry may have provided a mediator between Orsino and Meredith, but I'm positive that the result of that would not have been freedom from the Circle. At best it would be slightly less threat of death in the camps, no lack of camps. In blowing it up Anders forced the simmering injustice to a head, and actually created a situation in which freedom for the mages can be obtained.
Is Anders an ass? Oh hell yes. Is he an abomination? Without a doubt. But he's an ass and an abomination that my Hawke agreed with. And when it seems everyone else was employing the murder-knife, my Hawke was asking "Why didn't you tell me? I WOULD HAVE HELPED."
I'll be honest with you,
Likewise, it has been shown that not only are Mages vulnerable to demonic possession, but if a single mage gets possessed, he can wipe entire cities off of the map. It would have happened twice in DA: Origins (both the Circle and Redcliff) if the Warden hadn't stepped in and dealt with the issue.
Mages in DA don't have their lives restricted because they have a different skin color or they have a strange accent. Their lives are restricted because they are all potentially walking weapons of mass destruction.
I'm pro-mage and even I think the Circle isn't a bad idea.
Which is funny...since I was on Cap's side during Civil War.
No amount of oppression excuses a bloodmage killing a district full of civilians. I would have respected Anders bombing the Templars, they were at least his enemies. The fact that he thought his bomb was the only way to force the mages into an all out war screams of madness and desperation. He should have tried to use it on Merideth, and if he did not believe he could succeed in taking her down he should have gathered strength and tried harder.
His weakness and impatience is not an excuse to take the easy way out and start murdering civilians. Especially with the impending threat of an exalted march! He is not worthy of becoming a martyr, let alone a rebel leader.
As horrible as it is, mages need to be controlled.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Better try to oppress those dudes and treat them as horribly as you can. What's the worst that could happen?
But locking them all up in a big tower for pretty much the rest of their lives doesn't work. Letting the guardians of those towers be full of abusive dicks who hate mages also doesn't work.
Lighter control. More freedoms, much dialogue, mutual understanding, cooperation rather than oppression. That could work, without giving way to another Tevinter.
The Templar's recruitment criteria are apparently completely fucked, and with that so is the dynamic between Mages and Templars. It's a terrible system.
Just that, like with a lot of systems, corruption made it a lot worse than it had to be.
Tevinter was full of people enslaving, blood sacrificing, dragon worshipping mages. Then there was this prophet chick, and a whole revolution, and the Chantry was introduced to Tevinter, with Templars and Circles and everything. Now Tevinter is a place full of people enslaving, blood sacrificing, Maker worshipping Mages.
Tevinter isn't fucked because its ruled by mages. Tevinter is fucked because its full of people from Tevinter. There are plenty of instances of non-Tevinter mages that bust free of the Circle and just... hide. Start a nice family. Become hermits. Chill with the Dalish and travel around hurting no one. Live in a swamp. Do not blame every mage born because Tevinter is a morally corrupt society and always has been.
I'm sure that if set free 95% of mages would probably act responsibility.
But with the level of destruction that 5% can cause, it just isn't a chance you can take.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.